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Iron Heroes - anyone excited?

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Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:14:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I was just recently looking at the Iron Heroes previews:

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore

....and the author's design diaries:

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiaries...

I will have to admit, the ideas they have brought forth so far seem pretty
awesome. I love what they have done with the skill system, and the tokens
thing seems interesting as well.

Opinions so far?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

More about : iron heroes excited

Anonymous
July 22, 2005 12:02:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:

>I was just recently looking at the Iron Heroes previews:
>
>http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore
>
>...and the author's design diaries:
>
>http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiaries...
>
>I will have to admit, the ideas they have brought forth so far seem pretty
>awesome. I love what they have done with the skill system, and the tokens
>thing seems interesting as well.
>
>Opinions so far?
>
>
>
It's on my Must Buy list. I'm really looking forward to it.

There is a thread over on EN World that has gone into some depth on
the book.

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 2:23:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
> I was just recently looking at the Iron Heroes previews:
>
> http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore
>
> ...and the author's design diaries:
>
> http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiaries...
>
> I will have to admit, the ideas they have brought forth so far seem
> pretty awesome. I love what they have done with the skill system, and
> the tokens thing seems interesting as well.
>
> Opinions so far?

I've been hanging out for this game for months - ever since it was first
announced. I'm not one of your low magic grim-and-gritty fanatics, but I also
have no emotional attachment to the Christmas tree of magical items your average
D&D character has.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Related resources
July 23, 2005 5:54:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:23:02 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:

>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>
>> I was just recently looking at the Iron Heroes previews:
>>
>> http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore
>>
>> ...and the author's design diaries:
>>
>> http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiaries...
>>
>> I will have to admit, the ideas they have brought forth so far seem
>> pretty awesome. I love what they have done with the skill system, and
>> the tokens thing seems interesting as well.
>>
>> Opinions so far?
>
>I've been hanging out for this game for months - ever since it was first
>announced. I'm not one of your low magic grim-and-gritty fanatics,

I'm hardly a fanatic of anything, except maybe my hatred of Monte.
But I am very interested in a fantasy game that is more hero-centric
and less gear-centric.

Which, as you can see, puts me into an odd dilemna here. I console
myself with the fact that it appears Monte is merely presenting it.
....

I just read the FAQ. And browsed a bit of the discussion forum.
Just *presenting* this is enough to make me question my loathing of
him.

The bastard is going to get my money.
I feel dirty.
--
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gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

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July 23, 2005 7:49:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:02:58 -0400, Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net>
dared speak in front of ME:

>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>>I was just recently looking at the Iron Heroes previews:
>>
>>http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore
>>
>>...and the author's design diaries:
>>
>>http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiaries...
>>
>>I will have to admit, the ideas they have brought forth so far seem pretty
>>awesome. I love what they have done with the skill system, and the tokens
>>thing seems interesting as well.
>>
>>Opinions so far?
>>
> It's on my Must Buy list. I'm really looking forward to it.
>
> There is a thread over on EN World that has gone into some depth on
>the book.

Been looking. Cannot find.
Hint?

--
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Anonymous
July 23, 2005 9:35:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tetsubo" <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:D MidnRKJI8AXfX3fRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>>I was just recently looking at the Iron Heroes previews:
>>
>>http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore
>>
>>...and the author's design diaries:
>>
>>http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiaries...
>>
>>I will have to admit, the ideas they have brought forth so far seem pretty
>>awesome. I love what they have done with the skill system, and the tokens
>>thing seems interesting as well.
>>
>>Opinions so far?
>>
>>
> It's on my Must Buy list. I'm really looking forward to it.
>
> There is a thread over on EN World that has gone into some depth on the
> book.

There's Monte's IH boards as well...
http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36

Cheers!
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 12:36:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

A'koss wrote:
>
> I just want to point out that there *are* magic items in IH, they're rare
> though and we've been told that they are similar to CoC (potentially
> dangerous to use).

I think I've managed to miss that. I'm actually pleased - it lets you play in
worlds which do *have* magical items, but without requiring characters to deck
themselves out in magical gear, meaning magical objects can be special.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 12:40:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> tussock wrote:
>
>> Feats: Toughness VII, Cleave IX. Pfft. I'd rather see the number of
>> feats cut back and just have them all scale with level.
>
> We have not even seen the feats. As far as I have heard, they have the
> following feat mastery groups:
>
> Defense
> Lore
> Social
> Tactics
> Weapon (Finesse)
> Weapon (Power)
> Weapon (Projectile)

We've seen a few. Power Attack [Power] and Weapon Finesse [Finesse]:

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL_exc...

Combat Expertise [Finesse]:

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL_exc...

> Interestingly enough, the Iron Heroes version of the DMG is supposed to
> have an "under the hood" look at the game, to encourage tweaking.

There's a lot of really accessible and engaging discussion of how to tweak and
use the rules in the Book of Iron Might, so I would expect the same in Iron
Heroes.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 1:58:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> Tetsubo wrote:
>
>> There is a thread over on EN World that has gone into some depth on
>> the book.
>
> Been looking. Cannot find.
> Hint?

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=124666

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:52:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:tknEe.59609$oJ.47073@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> A'koss wrote:
>>
>> I just want to point out that there *are* magic items in IH, they're rare
>> though and we've been told that they are similar to CoC (potentially
>> dangerous to use).
>
> I think I've managed to miss that. I'm actually pleased - it lets you play
> in worlds which do *have* magical items, but without requiring characters
> to deck themselves out in magical gear, meaning magical objects can be
> special.

Exactly. I like to use magic items as a means to an (specific campaign) end,
rather than an end in itself...

Cheers!
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 1:57:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:36:41 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> A'koss wrote:
> >
> > I just want to point out that there *are* magic items in IH, they're rare
> > though and we've been told that they are similar to CoC (potentially
> > dangerous to use).
>
> I think I've managed to miss that. I'm actually pleased - it lets you play in
> worlds which do *have* magical items, but without requiring characters to deck
> themselves out in magical gear, meaning magical objects can be special.

Yep. Looks good.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
July 24, 2005 6:02:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:58:13 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>> Tetsubo wrote:
>>
>>> There is a thread over on EN World that has gone into some depth on
>>> the book.
>>
>> Been looking. Cannot find.
>> Hint?
>
>http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=124666

Ah, thank you.
--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

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Anonymous
July 24, 2005 2:35:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:

> NO MAGICAL ITEMS. AT ALL. EVER.
>
> Seem more balanced to you now? Mike Mearls designed the whole game around the
> premise that the PCs' own abilities would enable them to defeat the same
> challenges a standard-treasure D&D party could.

At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?

Anyway, to answer Mal's question; I'm excited about it *now.* Hadn't
heard of it before this thread. :) 

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 5:53:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> Christopher Adams wrote:
>> Kaos wrote:
>>> Tetsubo wrote:
>
>>>> There is a thread over on EN World that has gone into some depth
>>>> on the book.
>>>
>>> Been looking. Cannot find.
>>> Hint?
>>
>> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=124666
>
> Ah, thank you.

If you find it interesting and can stomach visiting fora run by Monte's company,
there's an Iron Heroes-specific forum here:

http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36

EzyBoard registration required to post.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
July 24, 2005 9:04:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:53:21 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>> Christopher Adams wrote:
>>> Kaos wrote:
>>>> Tetsubo wrote:
>>
>>>>> There is a thread over on EN World that has gone into some depth
>>>>> on the book.
>>>>
>>>> Been looking. Cannot find.
>>>> Hint?
>>>
>>> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=124666
>>
>> Ah, thank you.

Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
find one of those either.

>If you find it interesting and can stomach visiting fora run by Monte's company,
>there's an Iron Heroes-specific forum here:

>http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36

Lurking on his forum is hardly going to phase me at this point; I'm
already convinced I'll be giving cash to his company.

I was a bit disappointed over this statement from the designer:
"The character classes in Iron Lore all had to fill a few specific
criteria. In considering how the game would work, I decided early on
that I wanted classes that promoted action, adventure, and excitement.
Iron Lore isn't a game about political intrigue, the unbearable angst
of a tortured existence, or deep questions like, "What does it mean to
be human?" Iron Lore is a game where, nine times out of ten, the
correct answer (regardless of the question) is, "I shout a battle cry
and charge into the fray!" If the question doesn't fit that answer,
then maybe it's a question better served by a different game. "

But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.
(Bearing in mind, this is assumption based on hints & hearsay rather
than an actual look at the system.)
--
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July 24, 2005 9:04:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 24 Jul 2005 10:35:10 -0700, "madafro@grandecom.net"
<madafro@grandecom.net> dared speak in front of ME:

>Christopher Adams wrote:
>
>> NO MAGICAL ITEMS. AT ALL. EVER.
>>
>> Seem more balanced to you now? Mike Mearls designed the whole game around the
>> premise that the PCs' own abilities would enable them to defeat the same
>> challenges a standard-treasure D&D party could.
>
>At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
>lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
>up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?

There's been lots of questions about how it compares to both Conan and
Grim Tales on the EN forum. Right now it's a bit vague (since IH
isn't actually released yet) , but the general gist is that Conan is
one type of 'low magic' paradigm while IH is another.

One of the things mentioned is that IH is going to be very light on
assumed setting; I can't see the Conan sourcebook doing that. Which
means more of the content in IH will be dealing with 'crunch,' and
thus (theoretically) have more depth in that field.

Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Grim Tales - except that
(one of?) the author(s) is quite keen to see how IH handles certain
aspects of "low gear PCs vs standard D&D monsters." Particularly
dragon-on-open-plain and incorporeal undead.

I can see a few solutions to the dragon issues (feats and abilities to
force it to ground and negate the advantage of flight, bypass or just
straight overcome it's DR etc.) but I'll admit that low-gear vs
incorporeal has me a bit stumped as well. I'm curious to see if and
how Mearls handled that.
--
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Anonymous
July 25, 2005 1:30:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<madafro@grandecom.net> wrote in message
news:1122226510.230218.75370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Christopher Adams wrote:
>
>> NO MAGICAL ITEMS. AT ALL. EVER.
>>
>> Seem more balanced to you now? Mike Mearls designed the whole game around
>> the
>> premise that the PCs' own abilities would enable them to defeat the same
>> challenges a standard-treasure D&D party could.
>
> At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
> lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
> up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?

According to the threads I have read, it will be far better. I am hoping
so. Of course, I am not particularly fond of Mongoose, particularly their
policy of poor editing.

> Anyway, to answer Mal's question; I'm excited about it *now.* Hadn't
> heard of it before this thread. :) 

I gotta get more people interested so we can discuss it after it comes out
;-)

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 1:33:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:0r38e1ltsgotmqtsqt4t2j6alklu7cvdbe@4ax.com...
> On 24 Jul 2005 10:35:10 -0700, "madafro@grandecom.net"
> <madafro@grandecom.net> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Christopher Adams wrote:
>>
>>> NO MAGICAL ITEMS. AT ALL. EVER.
>>>
>>> Seem more balanced to you now? Mike Mearls designed the whole game
>>> around the
>>> premise that the PCs' own abilities would enable them to defeat the same
>>> challenges a standard-treasure D&D party could.
>>
>>At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
>>lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
>>up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?
>
> There's been lots of questions about how it compares to both Conan and
> Grim Tales on the EN forum. Right now it's a bit vague (since IH
> isn't actually released yet) , but the general gist is that Conan is
> one type of 'low magic' paradigm while IH is another.
>
> One of the things mentioned is that IH is going to be very light on
> assumed setting; I can't see the Conan sourcebook doing that. Which
> means more of the content in IH will be dealing with 'crunch,' and
> thus (theoretically) have more depth in that field.
>
> Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Grim Tales - except that
> (one of?) the author(s) is quite keen to see how IH handles certain
> aspects of "low gear PCs vs standard D&D monsters." Particularly
> dragon-on-open-plain and incorporeal undead.
>
> I can see a few solutions to the dragon issues (feats and abilities to
> force it to ground and negate the advantage of flight, bypass or just
> straight overcome it's DR etc.) but I'll admit that low-gear vs
> incorporeal has me a bit stumped as well. I'm curious to see if and
> how Mearls handled that.

Then again, how do heroes in that literary genre deal with incorporeal
enemies? In my experience, luck and special circumstances are generally
involved.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 2:27:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

madafro@grandecom.net wrote:
>
> At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
> lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
> up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?

The OGL Conan RPG apparently has a great deal of really cool setting information
drawn from the stories, but I think Iron Heroes is aimed at slightly more of an
action-movie experience than anything else. Mike Mearls himself said that he was
inspired by Conan and Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar stories and all of that good old
sword-and-sorcery stuff, but the thing he thinks of first when he tries to
describe Iron Heroes is "Die Hard".

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 3:05:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
>
> Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
> find one of those either.

You have to pay for access to it. They have a general "supporter" account or you
can buy those features separately.

> But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
> to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
> apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
> doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
> questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.

Mike Mearls' stated design philosophy is "Write your game so as to drive away
those people who don't want to be playing your game anyway." Sure, Iron Heroes
is made for running action movies and can't do intrigue, but that's the point.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
July 25, 2005 3:55:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:30:35 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:

><madafro@grandecom.net> wrote in message
>news:1122226510.230218.75370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Christopher Adams wrote:
>>
>>> NO MAGICAL ITEMS. AT ALL. EVER.
>>>
>>> Seem more balanced to you now? Mike Mearls designed the whole game around
>>> the
>>> premise that the PCs' own abilities would enable them to defeat the same
>>> challenges a standard-treasure D&D party could.
>>
>> At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
>> lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
>> up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?
>
>According to the threads I have read, it will be far better. I am hoping
>so. Of course, I am not particularly fond of Mongoose, particularly their
>policy of poor editing.

The enworld thread makes a few mention of "Grim Tales." Know anything
about that?

>> Anyway, to answer Mal's question; I'm excited about it *now.* Hadn't
>> heard of it before this thread. :) 
>
>I gotta get more people interested so we can discuss it after it comes out
>;-)

Well. I'm interested enough to forget my past hatred of it's
presenter.
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July 25, 2005 6:44:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:33:27 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:

>"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
>news:0r38e1ltsgotmqtsqt4t2j6alklu7cvdbe@4ax.com...
>> On 24 Jul 2005 10:35:10 -0700, "madafro@grandecom.net"
>> <madafro@grandecom.net> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Christopher Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>> NO MAGICAL ITEMS. AT ALL. EVER.
>>>>
>>>> Seem more balanced to you now? Mike Mearls designed the whole game
>>>> around the
>>>> premise that the PCs' own abilities would enable them to defeat the same
>>>> challenges a standard-treasure D&D party could.
>>>
>>>At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
>>>lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
>>>up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?
>>
>> There's been lots of questions about how it compares to both Conan and
>> Grim Tales on the EN forum. Right now it's a bit vague (since IH
>> isn't actually released yet) , but the general gist is that Conan is
>> one type of 'low magic' paradigm while IH is another.
>>
>> One of the things mentioned is that IH is going to be very light on
>> assumed setting; I can't see the Conan sourcebook doing that. Which
>> means more of the content in IH will be dealing with 'crunch,' and
>> thus (theoretically) have more depth in that field.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Grim Tales - except that
>> (one of?) the author(s) is quite keen to see how IH handles certain
>> aspects of "low gear PCs vs standard D&D monsters." Particularly
>> dragon-on-open-plain and incorporeal undead.
>>
>> I can see a few solutions to the dragon issues (feats and abilities to
>> force it to ground and negate the advantage of flight, bypass or just
>> straight overcome it's DR etc.) but I'll admit that low-gear vs
>> incorporeal has me a bit stumped as well. I'm curious to see if and
>> how Mearls handled that.
>
>Then again, how do heroes in that literary genre deal with incorporeal
>enemies? In my experience, luck and special circumstances are generally
>involved.

The trouble with that, is that Mearls has claimed IH heros will be
able to face anything out of the MM with the same efficiency as
standard geared-up classes (and implied they can do so without
over-reliance on the DM to provide 'special circumstances.')

It could be that he overstated somewhat and that there are exceptions,
or it could be that IH characters have some way of dealing with
incorporeal enemies. My assumption for the moment is that they're
designed to increase survival odds long enough to create their own
luck and/or find the necessary 'special circumstances.'
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July 25, 2005 6:44:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>>
>> Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
>> find one of those either.
>
>You have to pay for access to it. They have a general "supporter" account or you
>can buy those features separately.

Ah. Makes sense, I suppose.

>> But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
>> to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
>> apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
>> doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
>> questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.
>
>Mike Mearls' stated design philosophy is "Write your game so as to drive away
>those people who don't want to be playing your game anyway."

Apparently extended towards advertising the game as well ;) 

>Sure, Iron Heroes
>is made for running action movies and can't do intrigue, but that's the point.

Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."

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Anonymous
July 25, 2005 12:38:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:p mv8e15nm5mc9cn4sectiune34r04ohlai@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
> <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:

>>Sure, Iron Heroes
>>is made for running action movies and can't do intrigue, but that's the
>>point.
>
> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."

Does D&D support intrigue? In my opinion, the system gets in the way.
There are plenty of spells that do, anyway. There are only so many times
you can play "trump the information gathering spells" before things start
looking incredibly contrived. At least in a system that does not have
reliable magic, this barrier is eliminated.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 5:44:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote:

>The OGL Conan RPG apparently has a great deal of really cool setting
>information drawn from the stories, but I think Iron Heroes is aimed
>at slightly more of an action-movie experience than anything else.
>Mike Mearls himself said that he was inspired by Conan and Fritz
>Leiber's Lankhmar stories and all of that good old sword-and-sorcery
>stuff, but the thing he thinks of first when he tries to describe
>Iron Heroes is "Die Hard".

Yeah? I find that odd, because I put Conan and John McClane on
completely different levels when it comes to this sort of thing.
Conan is almost a superhero, really. McClane is definitely a
tough sumbitch, but he's the Everyman kind of tough guy,
surviving as much by luck as by skill and just plain not giving
up. This discussion of Iron Heroes makes me think of Conan and
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser and that sort, but not McClane, as
cool as he is. Interesting.

Pete
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 5:44:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Peter Meilinger" <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote in message
news:D c2qcg$7nv$1@news3.bu.edu...
> Christopher Adams <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>
>>The OGL Conan RPG apparently has a great deal of really cool setting
>>information drawn from the stories, but I think Iron Heroes is aimed
>>at slightly more of an action-movie experience than anything else.
>>Mike Mearls himself said that he was inspired by Conan and Fritz
>>Leiber's Lankhmar stories and all of that good old sword-and-sorcery
>>stuff, but the thing he thinks of first when he tries to describe
>>Iron Heroes is "Die Hard".
>
> Yeah? I find that odd, because I put Conan and John McClane on
> completely different levels when it comes to this sort of thing.

Well, the *actual* quote is:

"Iron Lore is a game of high action and adventure. Like most fantasy games,
it draws inspiration from a variety of classic sources - Robert Howard,
Fritz Leiber, Clark Ashton Smith, and so on. However, if you were to ask me
which movie most closely embodies Iron Lore's design, I'd say Die Hard. John
McClain is the prototypical Iron Lore PC - he's tough, resourceful, clever,
and he takes a beating but keeps on going. "

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 8:12:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
> news:0r38e1ltsgotmqtsqt4t2j6alklu7cvdbe@4ax.com...
>>
>> Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Grim Tales - except that
>> (one of?) the author(s) is quite keen to see how IH handles certain
>> aspects of "low gear PCs vs standard D&D monsters." Particularly
>> dragon-on-open-plain and incorporeal undead.
>>
>> I can see a few solutions to the dragon issues (feats and abilities
>> to force it to ground and negate the advantage of flight, bypass or
>> just straight overcome it's DR etc.) but I'll admit that low-gear
>> vs incorporeal has me a bit stumped as well. I'm curious to see if
>> and how Mearls handled that.
>
> Then again, how do heroes in that literary genre deal with incorporeal
> enemies? In my experience, luck and special circumstances are
> generally involved.

*handwave* Holy items. Not actually *magic* (assuming differentiation
between magic and 'divine effects', which may be appropriate for such a
setting), but blessed so they work against particular types of undead.

I've read stories where the heroes jerry-rigged crosses and the like.

Mundane counters exist for many undead, 'if only you know'. 'Vampires
repelled by garlic' is a classic one, ghosts might be unable to cross a
line of salt, and so on. You may even be able to damage them with
certain materials (vampires can be harmed with wood in several
mythologies, holy water seems to be generally useful, if a ghost can't
cross a line of salt it may be that a handful of salt through at
(through) a ghost would harm it as well, etc.

Of course, this could lead to those nifty double weapons that were
bandied about when the 3.5 DR rules came out.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 8:19:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
><mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos wrote:
>>>
>>> Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
>>> find one of those either.
>>
>>You have to pay for access to it. They have a general "supporter" account or you
>>can buy those features separately.
>
> Ah. Makes sense, I suppose.
>
>>> But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
>>> to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
>>> apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
>>> doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
>>> questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.
>>
>>Mike Mearls' stated design philosophy is "Write your game so as to drive away
>>those people who don't want to be playing your game anyway."
>
> Apparently extended towards advertising the game as well ;) 

I'd rather find out *before* buying the book.

*ahem* DMG2, Weapons of Legacy (thanks for the heads up, Mal. This one
interested me until you warned me off)

>>Sure, Iron Heroes is made for running action movies and can't do
>>intrigue, but that's the point.
>
> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."

which is probably appropriate *anyway*.

It comes to me that 'Intrigue' would probably be a decent skill group,
too, if they don't already have it. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. No
use in a fight, but IH isn't all that much about skill use *anyway*.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 8:19:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrndea495.ss9.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
>><mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
>>>> find one of those either.
>>>
>>>You have to pay for access to it. They have a general "supporter" account
>>>or you
>>>can buy those features separately.
>>
>> Ah. Makes sense, I suppose.
>>
>>>> But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
>>>> to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
>>>> apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
>>>> doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
>>>> questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.
>>>
>>>Mike Mearls' stated design philosophy is "Write your game so as to drive
>>>away
>>>those people who don't want to be playing your game anyway."
>>
>> Apparently extended towards advertising the game as well ;) 
>
> I'd rather find out *before* buying the book.

Indeed.

> *ahem* DMG2, Weapons of Legacy (thanks for the heads up, Mal. This one
> interested me until you warned me off)

It interested me, too. Wasted potential.

>>>Sure, Iron Heroes is made for running action movies and can't do
>>>intrigue, but that's the point.
>>
>> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
>> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
>> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."
>
> which is probably appropriate *anyway*.

Definitely.

> It comes to me that 'Intrigue' would probably be a decent skill group,
> too, if they don't already have it. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. No
> use in a fight, but IH isn't all that much about skill use *anyway*.

Actually, I have heard the opposite. Knowledge has apparently been rolled
into one skill, and each rank represents an area of lore you are familiar
with. Many combat stunts are apparently linked to different physical
skills, such as Climb and Balance. There will also be special tricks you
can pull by taking minuses to skills out of combat. All in all, it looks to
be a better, more developed skill system than the default 3.5 rendition.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 8:58:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:30:35 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> According to the threads I have read, it will be far better. I am hoping
> so. Of course, I am not particularly fond of Mongoose, particularly their
> policy of poor editing.
>
> > Anyway, to answer Mal's question; I'm excited about it *now.* Hadn't
> > heard of it before this thread. :) 
>
> I gotta get more people interested so we can discuss it after it comes out
> ;-)

Well, I'm interested. It sounds pretty cool.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 9:45:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrndea495.ss9.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
>><mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
>>>> find one of those either.
>>>
>>>You have to pay for access to it. They have a general "supporter" account
>>>or you
>>>can buy those features separately.
>>
>> Ah. Makes sense, I suppose.
>>
>>>> But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
>>>> to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
>>>> apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
>>>> doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
>>>> questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.
>>>
>>>Mike Mearls' stated design philosophy is "Write your game so as to drive
>>>away
>>>those people who don't want to be playing your game anyway."
>>
>> Apparently extended towards advertising the game as well ;) 
>
> I'd rather find out *before* buying the book.
>
> *ahem* DMG2, Weapons of Legacy (thanks for the heads up, Mal. This one
> interested me until you warned me off)
>
>>>Sure, Iron Heroes is made for running action movies and can't do
>>>intrigue, but that's the point.
>>
>> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
>> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
>> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."
>
> which is probably appropriate *anyway*.

Mike Mearl's comments were a little dodgy on this point. RP skills do
actually see some attention in IH, but not to the extend of other systems
that truly focus on the RP aspect.

> It comes to me that 'Intrigue' would probably be a decent skill group,
> too, if they don't already have it.

There are "RP" skill groups in IH - the Social & Theatrics Groups for
example...

Social:
The Social skills focus on your ability to charm others, whether you wish to
extract rumors from them, trick them, or just strike up a friendly
relationship. Skills: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information
(Cha), and Intimidate (Cha).

Theatrics:
The art of entertaining others not only can earn you a passable living, it
also helps develop a variety of useful skills. Skills: Bluff (Cha), Disguise
(Cha), Perform (Cha), and Sleight of Hand (Dex).

> Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. No
> use in a fight, but IH isn't all that much about skill use *anyway*.

Actually, IH has *extended* the utility of skills in the game.

Expanded skill use allows you to use skills in all sorts of new ways
apparantly, including using "RP" skills in combat - eg. Using Perform to get
opponents to focus on you. The IH Stunt system is based on skill checks -
eg. Using climb to scale a dragon's back so you can deliver blows from
relative safety. Cinematic tumbling attacks, etc.
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 10:03:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
> news:slrndea495.ss9.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
>
>> It comes to me that 'Intrigue' would probably be a decent skill
>> group, too, if they don't already have it. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense
>> Motive. No use in a fight, but IH isn't all that much about skill
>> use *anyway*.
>
> Actually, I have heard the opposite. Knowledge has apparently been
> rolled into one skill, and each rank represents an area of lore you
> are familiar with. Many combat stunts are apparently linked to
> different physical skills, such as Climb and Balance. There will also
> be special tricks you can pull by taking minuses to skills out of
> combat. All in all, it looks to be a better, more developed skill
> system than the default 3.5 rendition.

I will very much have to take a look at this. I've wanted to revise
skills in D&D for a while now.

One of the things I considered doing with Knowledge was keep the
existing skills, but treat each skill something like the 3.0 Perform
skill -- each rank gave a 'specialization' of the Knowledge skill. So,
if you pursued Knowledge(Nobility) you could follow the nobility of a
particular nation, or a single house of the nobility, or 'noble events'
(i.e. those that involved a large swath of the nobility, such as an
unusually nasty succession), and so on. I never bothered to pursue it
because I got bored with the idea and decided it'd be too much of a pain
in the ass to adjudicate, if you had a scholar type character.


Generally speaking, games should have detail around the focus of the
game. In an intrigue-based game you might have physical and combat
abilities broken down to "Body" and "Combat Skill", where you might have
Diplomacy broken down into specific modes or applications of diplomacy.
Since it appears that IH is all about combat, reducing an intriguist to,
basically, an 'Intrigue' skill makes sense.


One design I've seen bandied about on the rpg-create mailing list had
things broadly categorized, and you can drill down from there. For
instance, you might have three base stats:

Physical, Mental, Social

Each of these could break down into several 'substats' (Physical might
break down to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, etc.), and each of
those could break down further if desired. Ideally the sum of the costs
of substats would be equal to the sum of the major stat -- if buying up
Str, Dex, Con cost 3 points each, buying up Physical would cost 9, sort
of thing. This could be done either on a character basis (which I think
I wouldn't recommend) or on a game basis. If you're playing a social
game you might keep Physical at the top level only, Mental to the second
level, and Social might go to the third or even fourth level of detail.
A combat-based game might do the opposite.

This probably works better that the previous suggestion because it means
that creating an intrigue character in a combat-based game is still easy
and reasonably balanced power-wise, but not unusually cheap because you
need buy only a single skill (which has the weird effect of potentially
making *many* characters intriguists because it's cheap).


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
July 26, 2005 3:32:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:19:49 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:

>Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
>><mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
>>>> find one of those either.
>>>
>>>You have to pay for access to it. They have a general "supporter" account or you
>>>can buy those features separately.
>>
>> Ah. Makes sense, I suppose.
>>
>>>> But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
>>>> to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
>>>> apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
>>>> doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
>>>> questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.
>>>
>>>Mike Mearls' stated design philosophy is "Write your game so as to drive away
>>>those people who don't want to be playing your game anyway."
>>
>> Apparently extended towards advertising the game as well ;) 
>
>I'd rather find out *before* buying the book.
>
>*ahem* DMG2, Weapons of Legacy (thanks for the heads up, Mal. This one
>interested me until you warned me off)
>
>>>Sure, Iron Heroes is made for running action movies and can't do
>>>intrigue, but that's the point.
>>
>> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
>> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
>> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."
>
>which is probably appropriate *anyway*.
>
>It comes to me that 'Intrigue' would probably be a decent skill group,
>too, if they don't already have it. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. No
>use in a fight, but IH isn't all that much about skill use *anyway*.

Actually, IH is *very* much about skill use.
In fights, even...

--
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Anonymous
July 26, 2005 3:32:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:k33be1tm373rvc98r6u9a26fdikabpldnc@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:19:49 GMT, Keith Davies
> <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
>>><mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:
>>>
>>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Also: do the enworld forums have a search feature? I can't seem to
>>>>> find one of those either.
>>>>
>>>>You have to pay for access to it. They have a general "supporter"
>>>>account or you
>>>>can buy those features separately.
>>>
>>> Ah. Makes sense, I suppose.
>>>
>>>>> But then I thought about it a bit deeper, and realized that my answer
>>>>> to 'why choose D&D for a biff-light style of campaign' should still
>>>>> apply: the system focuses on putting mechanics where I want them, and
>>>>> doesn't generally thrust them where I don't. IH won't try to answer
>>>>> questions that I'd prefer be answered by story rather than system.
>>>>
>>>>Mike Mearls' stated design philosophy is "Write your game so as to drive
>>>>away
>>>>those people who don't want to be playing your game anyway."
>>>
>>> Apparently extended towards advertising the game as well ;) 
>>
>>I'd rather find out *before* buying the book.
>>
>>*ahem* DMG2, Weapons of Legacy (thanks for the heads up, Mal. This one
>>interested me until you warned me off)
>>
>>>>Sure, Iron Heroes is made for running action movies and can't do
>>>>intrigue, but that's the point.
>>>
>>> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
>>> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
>>> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."
>>
>>which is probably appropriate *anyway*.
>>
>>It comes to me that 'Intrigue' would probably be a decent skill group,
>>too, if they don't already have it. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. No
>>use in a fight, but IH isn't all that much about skill use *anyway*.
>
> Actually, IH is *very* much about skill use.
> In fights, even...

I was even reading about one of Mearls' comments about using high levels of
Perform to distract combatants away from your allies...

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
July 26, 2005 8:36:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:38:48 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:

>
>"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
>news:p mv8e15nm5mc9cn4sectiune34r04ohlai@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
>> <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>>Sure, Iron Heroes
>>>is made for running action movies and can't do intrigue, but that's the
>>>point.
>>
>> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
>> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
>> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."
>
>Does D&D support intrigue? In my opinion, the system gets in the way.
>There are plenty of spells that do, anyway.

Indeed. And that's fine, if the purpose of the 'intrigue' is just to
act as background/prologue material providing context for the
adventure; but it definately gets in the way if you're looking for the
intrigue to *be* the adventure.


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Anonymous
July 27, 2005 12:37:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:D i3ce1devi9vf9k45bnllt38kd82o7ub4q@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:38:48 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>
>>"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
>>news:p mv8e15nm5mc9cn4sectiune34r04ohlai@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:40 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
>>> <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>>Sure, Iron Heroes
>>>>is made for running action movies and can't do intrigue, but that's the
>>>>point.
>>>
>>> Well, one of the playtest groups has stated that you *can* do intrigue
>>> while using the system. But that may be more a case of "the system
>>> doesn't get in the way" than "it's supported by the system."
>>
>>Does D&D support intrigue? In my opinion, the system gets in the way.
>>There are plenty of spells that do, anyway.
>
> Indeed. And that's fine, if the purpose of the 'intrigue' is just to
> act as background/prologue material providing context for the
> adventure; but it definately gets in the way if you're looking for the
> intrigue to *be* the adventure.

Agreed. Personally, I like a little of both.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 12:42:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrndeaab0.ree.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
>> news:slrndea495.ss9.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
>>
>>> It comes to me that 'Intrigue' would probably be a decent skill
>>> group, too, if they don't already have it. Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense
>>> Motive. No use in a fight, but IH isn't all that much about skill
>>> use *anyway*.
>>
>> Actually, I have heard the opposite. Knowledge has apparently been
>> rolled into one skill, and each rank represents an area of lore you
>> are familiar with. Many combat stunts are apparently linked to
>> different physical skills, such as Climb and Balance. There will also
>> be special tricks you can pull by taking minuses to skills out of
>> combat. All in all, it looks to be a better, more developed skill
>> system than the default 3.5 rendition.
>
> I will very much have to take a look at this. I've wanted to revise
> skills in D&D for a while now.
>
> One of the things I considered doing with Knowledge was keep the
> existing skills, but treat each skill something like the 3.0 Perform
> skill -- each rank gave a 'specialization' of the Knowledge skill. So,
> if you pursued Knowledge(Nobility) you could follow the nobility of a
> particular nation, or a single house of the nobility, or 'noble events'
> (i.e. those that involved a large swath of the nobility, such as an
> unusually nasty succession), and so on. I never bothered to pursue it
> because I got bored with the idea and decided it'd be too much of a pain
> in the ass to adjudicate, if you had a scholar type character.

Agreed. Plus, coming up with 10 specializations for Knowledge: Nobility
might be a bit tough in some campaigns. I think I will like the Iron Heroes
system, just because it allows a "Knowledge Monkey" character to both be
knowledgable about a bunch of things, *and* have the skill points for other
stuff.

> Generally speaking, games should have detail around the focus of the
> game. In an intrigue-based game you might have physical and combat
> abilities broken down to "Body" and "Combat Skill", where you might have
> Diplomacy broken down into specific modes or applications of diplomacy.
> Since it appears that IH is all about combat, reducing an intriguist to,
> basically, an 'Intrigue' skill makes sense.

Although it seems to be heavily about combat, I will not be surprised if
there is more to it than that. Hopefully, there will be good guidelines for
research to affect combat directly (a character can learn the weaknesses of
a monster and give the party a small benefit, say).

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 12:43:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:ig59e1hmm5qb1i4932banvou96kq0pfrj5@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:33:27 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
>>news:0r38e1ltsgotmqtsqt4t2j6alklu7cvdbe@4ax.com...
>>> On 24 Jul 2005 10:35:10 -0700, "madafro@grandecom.net"
>>> <madafro@grandecom.net> dared speak in front of ME:
>>>
>>>>Christopher Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> NO MAGICAL ITEMS. AT ALL. EVER.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seem more balanced to you now? Mike Mearls designed the whole game
>>>>> around the
>>>>> premise that the PCs' own abilities would enable them to defeat the
>>>>> same
>>>>> challenges a standard-treasure D&D party could.
>>>>
>>>>At a glance, this seems tailor-made for running a Conan-style game;
>>>>lots of heroics, magic is Very Dangerous, etc. I wonder how it stacks
>>>>up against Mongoose's "Conan" outing for that sort of thing?
>>>
>>> There's been lots of questions about how it compares to both Conan and
>>> Grim Tales on the EN forum. Right now it's a bit vague (since IH
>>> isn't actually released yet) , but the general gist is that Conan is
>>> one type of 'low magic' paradigm while IH is another.
>>>
>>> One of the things mentioned is that IH is going to be very light on
>>> assumed setting; I can't see the Conan sourcebook doing that. Which
>>> means more of the content in IH will be dealing with 'crunch,' and
>>> thus (theoretically) have more depth in that field.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Grim Tales - except that
>>> (one of?) the author(s) is quite keen to see how IH handles certain
>>> aspects of "low gear PCs vs standard D&D monsters." Particularly
>>> dragon-on-open-plain and incorporeal undead.
>>>
>>> I can see a few solutions to the dragon issues (feats and abilities to
>>> force it to ground and negate the advantage of flight, bypass or just
>>> straight overcome it's DR etc.) but I'll admit that low-gear vs
>>> incorporeal has me a bit stumped as well. I'm curious to see if and
>>> how Mearls handled that.
>>
>>Then again, how do heroes in that literary genre deal with incorporeal
>>enemies? In my experience, luck and special circumstances are generally
>>involved.
>
> The trouble with that, is that Mearls has claimed IH heros will be
> able to face anything out of the MM with the same efficiency as
> standard geared-up classes (and implied they can do so without
> over-reliance on the DM to provide 'special circumstances.')

I suppose I will have to take his word on that until I get the book ;-)

> It could be that he overstated somewhat and that there are exceptions,
> or it could be that IH characters have some way of dealing with
> incorporeal enemies. My assumption for the moment is that they're
> designed to increase survival odds long enough to create their own
> luck and/or find the necessary 'special circumstances.'

That sounds like a good assessment.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 12:44:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrndea3rv.ss9.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
>> news:0r38e1ltsgotmqtsqt4t2j6alklu7cvdbe@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Grim Tales - except that
>>> (one of?) the author(s) is quite keen to see how IH handles certain
>>> aspects of "low gear PCs vs standard D&D monsters." Particularly
>>> dragon-on-open-plain and incorporeal undead.
>>>
>>> I can see a few solutions to the dragon issues (feats and abilities
>>> to force it to ground and negate the advantage of flight, bypass or
>>> just straight overcome it's DR etc.) but I'll admit that low-gear
>>> vs incorporeal has me a bit stumped as well. I'm curious to see if
>>> and how Mearls handled that.
>>
>> Then again, how do heroes in that literary genre deal with incorporeal
>> enemies? In my experience, luck and special circumstances are
>> generally involved.
>
> *handwave* Holy items. Not actually *magic* (assuming differentiation
> between magic and 'divine effects', which may be appropriate for such a
> setting), but blessed so they work against particular types of undead.
>
> I've read stories where the heroes jerry-rigged crosses and the like.
>
> Mundane counters exist for many undead, 'if only you know'.

Good point. I had not thought of that.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
July 27, 2005 2:49:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:42:03 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:

>"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
>news:slrndeaab0.ree.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
<snip>
>> Generally speaking, games should have detail around the focus of the
>> game. In an intrigue-based game you might have physical and combat
>> abilities broken down to "Body" and "Combat Skill", where you might have
>> Diplomacy broken down into specific modes or applications of diplomacy.
>> Since it appears that IH is all about combat, reducing an intriguist to,
>> basically, an 'Intrigue' skill makes sense.
>
>Although it seems to be heavily about combat, I will not be surprised if
>there is more to it than that.

I think the best way to put it, is that it assumes combat is where the
Action will be.

>Hopefully, there will be good guidelines for
>research to affect combat directly (a character can learn the weaknesses of
>a monster and give the party a small benefit, say).

Which would also make a nice spot to insert a 'story fix' for problems
like incorporeal-undead vs no-magic-weapon issues...
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Anonymous
July 27, 2005 4:04:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:1gefe1d00ke568usatc5cq0jtiqns6t2gg@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:42:03 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
>>news:slrndeaab0.ree.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> <snip>
>>> Generally speaking, games should have detail around the focus of the
>>> game. In an intrigue-based game you might have physical and combat
>>> abilities broken down to "Body" and "Combat Skill", where you might have
>>> Diplomacy broken down into specific modes or applications of diplomacy.
>>> Since it appears that IH is all about combat, reducing an intriguist to,
>>> basically, an 'Intrigue' skill makes sense.
>>
>>Although it seems to be heavily about combat, I will not be surprised if
>>there is more to it than that.
>
> I think the best way to put it, is that it assumes combat is where the
> Action will be.

Agreed.

>>Hopefully, there will be good guidelines for
>>research to affect combat directly (a character can learn the weaknesses
>>of
>>a monster and give the party a small benefit, say).
>
> Which would also make a nice spot to insert a 'story fix' for problems
> like incorporeal-undead vs no-magic-weapon issues...

Good idea. Maybe you should lend a hand in game design sometime ;-)

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
July 27, 2005 10:24:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:45:01 GMT, "A'koss" <i@home.com> dared speak in
front of ME:

>"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
>news:slrndea495.ss9.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
>> which is probably appropriate *anyway*.
>
>Mike Mearl's comments were a little dodgy on this point. RP skills do
>actually see some attention in IH, but not to the extend of other systems
>that truly focus on the RP aspect.

Meh. IME, extended RP mechanics are usually either an excuse to
abstract portions of the RP into dice-rolls, or shift character
control away from the player. Put in just enough so that character
skill can have some influence on the events, but not so much that the
whole situation can be broken into 'roll your XXX skill.' and I'm
happy.

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July 28, 2005 2:58:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:04:44 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:

>"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
>news:1gefe1d00ke568usatc5cq0jtiqns6t2gg@4ax.com...
>>>Hopefully, there will be good guidelines for
>>>research to affect combat directly (a character can learn the weaknesses
>>>of
>>>a monster and give the party a small benefit, say).
>>
>> Which would also make a nice spot to insert a 'story fix' for problems
>> like incorporeal-undead vs no-magic-weapon issues...
>
>Good idea. Maybe you should lend a hand in game design sometime ;-)

I'm good at working with what I'm given. After that... remains to be
seen.
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Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:29:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> Kaos wrote:
>
>>> Which would also make a nice spot to insert a 'story fix' for problems
>>> like incorporeal-undead vs no-magic-weapon issues...
>>
>> Good idea. Maybe you should lend a hand in game design sometime ;-)
>
> I'm good at working with what I'm given. After that... remains to be
> seen.

Speaking of Mike Mearls and story fixes - his supplement Transcendence for
Arcana Evolved contains a pretty interesting one for character death.

The champion class is the Arcana Evolved replacement-for-and-expansion-of the
paladin; each champion has a cause, such as Justice, Death, or a more focused
devotion like a nation or an individual. Transcendence introduces the concept of
replacement levels - which work like substitution levels, except for not being
tied to specific levels (i.e., you can take them whenever you like, though some
might have prerequisites) - and the replacement levels given for the champion
are called the deathless crusader.

Basically, it's a free resurrection (you swap your highest level of champion for
the first deathless crusader replacement level) if the champion has performed
five acts of true bravery and heroism in pursuit of the cause he champions. It's
a very interesting "mechanic", in that it has a cost - but it's a cool cost, in
that it reinforces your roleplaying decisions and character motivations *and*
gives you mechanical benefits.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

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