Dragon Lords of Melnibone / Elric / Stormbringer

Oberon

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Who has played any of these?

What problems did you face? In particular has anyone DMed
'Dragon Lords of Melnibone' out of the box or did you need to
modify the rules?

I'm asking these questions because I read a review of 'Dragon
Lords..' at rpg.net which implied that little play-testing had
taken place and that the game was just Elric with d20 stats.

Only 11 people are listed as being part of the "Dragon Lords
crew" of playtesters; which strikes me as not very many at all.
 
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Oberon wrote:

>Who has played any of these?
>
>What problems did you face? In particular has anyone DMed
>'Dragon Lords of Melnibone' out of the box or did you need to
>modify the rules?
>
>I'm asking these questions because I read a review of 'Dragon
>Lords..' at rpg.net which implied that little play-testing had
>taken place and that the game was just Elric with d20 stats.
>
>Only 11 people are listed as being part of the "Dragon Lords
>crew" of playtesters; which strikes me as not very many at all.
>
>
>
I've played and GMed Elric! and Stormbringer. Stormbringer was one of
my favorite RPGs to run back in high school---I stopped playing it much
a couple of years later, though. I gave Elric! a few tries, but while I
enjoyed it, the people I ran it for didn't really care for the dark
fantasy mood, so that was that.

I haven't played the D20 version, so I can't help you there. I did
identify certain recurring problems whenever I ran Stormbringer, but
then, it's an older version of the game now available. I think the
current version of Stormbringer is based mostly on the Elric! system
from several years back, which I haven't played enough to give much
constructive advice for.

--


The majestic equality of the law forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

Anatole France


Comic book klatch: http://ibntumart.blogspot.com
 
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Oberon <oberon@solstice.com> writes
>Who has played any of these?
>
>What problems did you face? In particular has anyone DMed
>'Dragon Lords of Melnibone' out of the box or did you need to
>modify the rules?
>
>I'm asking these questions because I read a review of 'Dragon
>Lords..' at rpg.net which implied that little play-testing had
>taken place and that the game was just Elric with d20 stats.
>
>Only 11 people are listed as being part of the "Dragon Lords
>crew" of playtesters; which strikes me as not very many at all.

It *is* basically Elric with D20 stats and rules. So if you prefer D20
and like the Young Kingdoms as a setting, you don't need to do the
conversion over from BRP. I treat it as a rules supplement - there's
more source in Elric than is in DLoM, for one thing.

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
 
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"Oberon" <oberon@solstice.com> wrote in message
news:uco5e11o6l0q5st45hjm431t568uqppisa@4ax.com...
> Who has played any of these?
>
> What problems did you face?

I GMed Stormbringer extensively about 20 years ago. I can't really say I
found any major problems at all. It's one of the simplest, fastest, and most
elegant rules systems I've ever seen for a fantasy RPG. I always described
it as "all the benefits of Runequest, without the clutter". I would
certainly use it again, if I ever went back to fantasy games, and not just
for a game set in Moorcock's universe, as it's easy to graft other
backgrounds on to it.

The only problem I could foresee you facing with Stormbringer is that the
rules for character advancement don't hold up over the course of a lengthy
campaign, as skill levels become ridiculous. But whether you see that as a
problem or not depends on your playing style, and it is actually consistent
with the source material.


--
David Meadows
"Music, when it is conceived, composed and performed with love and
integrity, can elevate us all." -- Jon Lord
 
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Oberon wrote:
>
> What problems did you face? In particular has anyone DMed
> 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone' out of the box or did you need to
> modify the rules?

I played Stormbringer a long time ago. I disliked the random home
race generation, but that may have not been standard rules (I did not
GM).

As for 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone', I found it to be pretty useless.
If you want a d20 Moorcock world, you're better off designing it
yourself. There were major balance issues throughout, including some
of the biggest mistakes I've ever seen in a d20 product not published
by Nightshift Games (the ones that stick out particularly in my mind
are the +1/-1 racial modifiers to stats).

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.
 
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To add my bit - I used to play Stormbringer as well in the 80's. I
thought it was a great system. It was best for playing low-powered
campaigns against the backdrop of the books etc. As a previouis poster
indicated, at higher skill levels teh system tended to fall over.

However - this is nothing compared with the structural problems
Rolemaster - at lower levels the entire "pick how much to put in to
defence and attack" worked fine, but after that it all went powerplay
munchkin geektasm overload.

(Also, "Rulemaster" had about 6 tables for "Midwife Fumble Role" in one
of the suppliments)
 

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On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:49:59 -0400, Nikolas Landauer
<dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote:

>Oberon wrote:
>>
>> What problems did you face? In particular has anyone DMed
>> 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone' out of the box or did you need to
>> modify the rules?
>
>I played Stormbringer a long time ago. I disliked the random home
>race generation, but that may have not been standard rules (I did not
>GM).
>
>As for 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone', I found it to be pretty useless.
>If you want a d20 Moorcock world, you're better off designing it
>yourself. There were major balance issues throughout, including some
>of the biggest mistakes I've ever seen in a d20 product not published
>by Nightshift Games (the ones that stick out particularly in my mind
>are the +1/-1 racial modifiers to stats).

Thanks for the reply Nik, and for everyone else I'm not replying
to personally.

I had intended to have a go at running some of the early
Stormbringer Chaosium modules (I have) with DLoM rules. But...,
I've been reading a lot of old posts and looking at messages in
the EternalChampion yahoo group:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eternalchampion/>

From what I can see, no one there is actually running DLoM. They
seem to be using either Stormbringer 3e, 4e, 5e, Elric rules or
something entirely different. For instance rather than use DLoM
there is some discussion of using Slaine d20 instead.

I, myself, just bought the DLoM book for about $2.20 on Amazon
which indicates that there isn't a huge market for it.

I may change my mind and try to use Elric instead, which would
mean having to buy yet another version of the game. [Although I
have the pirate net book I will need a hard copy to actually run
the game]

DLoM did look a bit rushed in places but I can't comment much on
"balance issues". An early review of Stormbringer 3e I read
commented that the game looked unplayable due to imbalances in
it. That is what I thought too - it's been sitting, unplayed,
on my shelf for years. Well I know that part of D&D philosophy
is that D&D is as much a "game" rather than a "role-play"
product - so things are supposed to be more balanced (gamewise)
throughout and I know that people who play D&D give a lot of
thought to game issues (advancing levels, getting XPs, etc)
rather than just the RP stuff. To be honest I, too, like a
mixture.

If I run DLoM - I intend to ditch D&D magic mentioned in it
wholesale in favour of Elric/Pan Tang/Bronze Grimoire magic
conversions + maybe some CoC spells and some I've thought up
myself with a herbal potion healing system (I'll write myself).
I do want to keep the demon magic though - and I always regarded
that as ridiculously unbalanced.

I personally think it's up to the GM to try to maintain balance
by just giving weaker PCs some kind of help. [Such as allowing
them to befriend a powerful NPC or luckily getting hold of a
useful magic item, etc.]

If I run DLoM, I'll be dishing out XPs very stingily and maybe
halving the HPs gained at each level gain.

On random racial generation - if I let everyone do as they wish
they will all be playing Melnibonean sorcerers - I want some
players to play other characters as well. [Is that one of the
lack of balance issues you mentioned?]

I didn't understand your comment on the racial stat modifiers
above. [I didn't think that was a huge issue]

Can you elaborate more on the lack of balance in DLoM? - this
still worries me.
 
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Oberon wrote:
>
> From what I can see, no one there is actually running DLoM.
> They seem to be using either Stormbringer 3e, 4e, 5e, Elric
> rules or something entirely different. For instance rather
> than use DLoM there is some discussion of using Slaine d20
> instead.

That's a pretty good indicator; if they're talking about Slaine d20,
they're not opposed to d20, but they obviously prefer a *different*
product to the actual product that supposedly converts their setting's
content.

> DLoM did look a bit rushed in places

Yeah... Those places being "the entire book".

> Well I know that part of D&D philosophy is that D&D is as
> much a "game" rather than a "role-play" product

This is a false dichotomy. Nothing about it being a game prevents
role-playing... In fact, making sure that it remains balanced as a
game is *more* likely to facilitate roleplaying. Doing so certainly
has that effect in every 3.x game I've run or been in.

> If I run DLoM - I intend to ditch D&D magic mentioned in
> it wholesale in favour of Elric/Pan Tang/Bronze Grimoire
> magic conversions + maybe some CoC spells and some I've
> thought up myself with a herbal potion healing system
> (I'll write myself). I do want to keep the demon magic
> though - and I always regarded that as ridiculously
> unbalanced.

There are costs to everything, IIRC. That said, this is probably a
good idea, overall.

> I personally think it's up to the GM to try to maintain
> balance by just giving weaker PCs some kind of help.
> [Such as allowing them to befriend a powerful NPC or
> luckily getting hold of a useful magic item, etc.]

I find this kind of thing to be unwise, as it forces far too much GM
subjectivity. Obviously, someone who doesn't care about internal
world consistency (i.e. someone with at least some simulationist
leanings) would differ in opinion, so YMMV.

> On random racial generation - if I let everyone do as
> they wish they will all be playing Melnibonean sorcerers
> - I want some players to play other characters as well.
> [Is that one of the lack of balance issues you mentioned?]

One of them, yes... But I was referring to *Stormbringer* when
mentioning the random racial generation, because the races were *far*
more unbalanced in Stormbringer.

A much more sensible method would be to redesign the races, and give
Melniboneans the Level Adjustment they deserve.

> I didn't understand your comment on the racial stat
> modifiers above. [I didn't think that was a huge issue]

Odd-numbered racial stat modifiers are a huge issue. They are
inherently unbalanced, because they have totally different effects on
different characters (add a +1 to a 13, and you get the exact same
advantage as if you added a +2; add a +1 to a 12, and you get
*nothing*; the same problem goes for penalties as well).

All racial stat modifiers should always be even-numbered, to give the
same benefit or penalty to everyone. The fact that the DLoM designers
did not do this speaks volumes about their lack of understanding of
the rules and balance issues.

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.
 
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I have Elric!, but I was not able to figure out how shields aid the defense
of character. Could you, please, explain or cite the shield rules?

Tom Merring

"Nikolas Landauer" <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in message
news:1122346198.83748167840dcb4785c80b0929c1835e@teranews...
> Oberon wrote:
>>
>> What problems did you face? In particular has anyone DMed
>> 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone' out of the box or did you need to
>> modify the rules?
>
> I played Stormbringer a long time ago. I disliked the random home
> race generation, but that may have not been standard rules (I did not
> GM).
>
> As for 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone', I found it to be pretty useless.
> If you want a d20 Moorcock world, you're better off designing it
> yourself. There were major balance issues throughout, including some
> of the biggest mistakes I've ever seen in a d20 product not published
> by Nightshift Games (the ones that stick out particularly in my mind
> are the +1/-1 racial modifiers to stats).
>
> --
> Nik
> - remove vermin from email address to reply.
 
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Oberon wrote:

>DLoM did look a bit rushed in places but I can't comment much on
>"balance issues". An early review of Stormbringer 3e I read
>commented that the game looked unplayable due to imbalances in
>it. That is what I thought too - it's been sitting, unplayed,
>on my shelf for years.
>
>
Third Edition Stormbringer is indeed playable, but I'd advise ditching
the random Nationality table and letting your players pick. Just make
sure either everyone or no one is Melbinonean. Same goes with Pan
Tangan and Myrrhyn(sp).

Keep in mind that those with sorcery are vastly more powerful than those
who do not practice it. You'd be wise to keep some balance there, as
well as to make sure that players pay the price for power (as seemed to
be the recurring theme in every adventure I ran).

--

The majestic equality of the law forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

Anatole France


Comic book klatch: http://ibntumart.blogspot.com
 
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No, I can't.

I haven't played it, myself.

(P.S. See why top-posting, like you just did, is *bad*? Consider this
your only warning: Don't do it again.)

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.

(original left in place as demonstration, but below my .sig line
intentionally.)

TG wrote:
>
> I have Elric!, but I was not able to figure out how shields aid the defense
> of character. Could you, please, explain or cite the shield rules?
>
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> > Oberon wrote:
> > >
> > > What problems did you face? In particular has anyone DMed
> > > 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone' out of the box or did you need to
> > > modify the rules?
> >
> > I played Stormbringer a long time ago. I disliked the random home
> > race generation, but that may have not been standard rules (I did not
> > GM).
> >
> > As for 'Dragon Lords of Melnibone', I found it to be pretty useless.
> > If you want a d20 Moorcock world, you're better off designing it
> > yourself. There were major balance issues throughout, including some
> > of the biggest mistakes I've ever seen in a d20 product not published
> > by Nightshift Games (the ones that stick out particularly in my mind
> > are the +1/-1 racial modifiers to stats).
 
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"Nikolas Landauer" <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in message
news:1122512170.9f4ed92be8a695931f6dac7adb446038@teranews...
> No, I can't.
>
> I haven't played it, myself.
>
> (P.S. See why top-posting, like you just did, is *bad*? Consider this
> your only warning: Don't do it again.)
>
> --
> Nik
> - remove vermin from email address to reply.

I apologize; a habit from work. I also regret that I addressed my question
to you rather than Ibn Tumart who stated that he had tried Elric! a few
times.

Tom Merring
 

Oberon

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On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:40:04 -0400, Nikolas Landauer
<dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote:

>Oberon wrote:
>>
>> From what I can see, no one there is actually running DLoM.
>> They seem to be using either Stormbringer 3e, 4e, 5e, Elric
>> rules or something entirely different. For instance rather
>> than use DLoM there is some discussion of using Slaine d20
>> instead.
>
>That's a pretty good indicator; if they're talking about Slaine d20,
>they're not opposed to d20, but they obviously prefer a *different*
>product to the actual product that supposedly converts their setting's
>content.

It seems they started with Slaine, moved to Conan and have
finally wound up with Blue Rose. Some of the elements of the
Blue Rose RPG looked very nice in the reviews I read but I've
seen none of the 3 I mentioned above.

<snip>
>> I didn't understand your comment on the racial stat
>> modifiers above. [I didn't think that was a huge issue]
>
>Odd-numbered racial stat modifiers are a huge issue. They are
>inherently unbalanced, because they have totally different effects on
>different characters (add a +1 to a 13, and you get the exact same
>advantage as if you added a +2; add a +1 to a 12, and you get
>*nothing*; the same problem goes for penalties as well).
>
>All racial stat modifiers should always be even-numbered, to give the
>same benefit or penalty to everyone. The fact that the DLoM designers
>did not do this speaks volumes about their lack of understanding of
>the rules and balance issues.

Thanks for taking the time to post again. I agree with just
about everything you said in your second post and found the last
point very useful.
 

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On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:18:59 -0600, "TG" <tgfang@comcast.net>
wrote:

>I have Elric!, but I was not able to figure out how shields aid the defense
>of character. Could you, please, explain or cite the shield rules?

That's the kind of question that would get an very good response
from the yahoo group I mentioned:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eternalchampion/>

Not having played Elric, I personally feel shouldn't attempt to
answer it.
 
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"Oberon" <oberon@solstice.com> wrote in message
news:vkcge1trn3poojr8ld4sg62h2h38rr31p3@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:18:59 -0600, "TG" <tgfang@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>I have Elric!, but I was not able to figure out how shields aid the
>>defense
>>of character. Could you, please, explain or cite the shield rules?
>
> That's the kind of question that would get an very good response
> from the yahoo group I mentioned:
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eternalchampion/>
>
> Not having played Elric, I personally feel shouldn't attempt to
> answer it.
>

Thank you.

Tom
 
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Nikolas Landauer <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in
news:1122512170.9f4ed92be8a695931f6dac7adb446038@teranews:

> No, I can't.
>
> I haven't played it, myself.
>
> (P.S. See why top-posting, like you just did, is *bad*? Consider
> this your only warning: Don't do it again.)
>

The irony.

--
Marc
"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as
outraged as those who are."--Benjamin Franklin
 
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"Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96A0DE136D178mastercougarhotmailc@207.35.177.135:

> Nikolas Landauer <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in
> news:1122512170.9f4ed92be8a695931f6dac7adb446038@teranews:
>
>> No, I can't.
>>
>> I haven't played it, myself.
>>
>> (P.S. See why top-posting, like you just did, is *bad*? Consider
>> this your only warning: Don't do it again.)
>>
>
> The irony.
>

Oops, sorry Nick, realized after I posted what you wrote below
your post. Arrgghh. Time machine please


--
Marc
"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as
outraged as those who are."--Benjamin Franklin
 
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Marc L. <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in
> news:1122512170.9f4ed92be8a695931f6dac7adb446038@teranews:
>
>> No, I can't.
>>
>> I haven't played it, myself.
>>
>> (P.S. See why top-posting, like you just did, is *bad*? Consider
>> this your only warning: Don't do it again.)
>
> The irony.

Given that he was doing it to illustrate why top-posting is bad, it can
hardly be called ironic.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
 
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Marc L. <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns96A0DE136D178mastercougarhotmailc@207.35.177.135:
>
>> Nikolas Landauer <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in
>> news:1122512170.9f4ed92be8a695931f6dac7adb446038@teranews:
>>
>>> No, I can't.
>>>
>>> I haven't played it, myself.
>>>
>>> (P.S. See why top-posting, like you just did, is *bad*? Consider
>>> this your only warning: Don't do it again.)
>>
>> The irony.
>
> Oops, sorry Nick, realized after I posted what you wrote below
> your post. Arrgghh. Time machine please

.... and, of course, I hadn't seen this yet. Never mind my previous
post.

Oh, and it's "Nik", not "Nick".


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
 
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Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in
news:slrndegi4d.vfm.keith.davies@kjdavies.org:

> ... and, of course, I hadn't seen this yet. Never mind my previous
> post.
>
> Oh, and it's "Nik", not "Nick".
>

Fair enough.

--
Marc
"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as
outraged as those who are."--Benjamin Franklin
 
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TG <tgfang@comcast.net> writes
>I have Elric!, but I was not able to figure out how shields aid the defense
>of character. Could you, please, explain or cite the shield rules?

I don't have Elric!, but on the basis of assumption that it's at least
vaguely similar to Stormbringer (and RuneQuest, and other BRPGs), you
use a shield to parry. That is, unlike in D&D where a shield adds to
basic armour protection, you actively use a shield in attempt to block a
blow as you would parry with a weapon. So I'm guessing you'd find the
rules for shields under the those covering parrying (via the Parry
skill, if that's retained in Elric!).

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
 
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"Ian R Malcomson" <ian@domicus.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jKZ$7UBRLq6CFwmD@domicus.demon.co.uk...
> TG <tgfang@comcast.net> writes
>>I have Elric!, but I was not able to figure out how shields aid the
>>defense
>>of character. Could you, please, explain or cite the shield rules?
>
> I don't have Elric!, but on the basis of assumption that it's at least
> vaguely similar to Stormbringer (and RuneQuest, and other BRPGs), you use
> a shield to parry. That is, unlike in D&D where a shield adds to basic
> armour protection, you actively use a shield in attempt to block a blow as
> you would parry with a weapon. So I'm guessing you'd find the rules for
> shields under the those covering parrying (via the Parry skill, if that's
> retained in Elric!).
>
> --
> Ian R Malcomson
> "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

I am familiar with the rolls for parries in RQ2 and RQ3. It has been some
time since I looked at Elric!, but my recollection is that there is not a
shield skill. It was my thought that shields added a % to parry skill, but
I was not able to find that explicity stated. From threads that I have read
on rpg.net, I think that the various Stormbringer editions are pretty
similar to Elric!

If I decide to use Elric! for something, I will read the rules again and
check with the "yahoo" group that another person cited.

Thanks,
Tom
 
G

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TG wrote:

>"Ian R Malcomson" <ian@domicus.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:jKZ$7UBRLq6CFwmD@domicus.demon.co.uk...
>
>
>>TG <tgfang@comcast.net> writes
>>
>>
>>>I have Elric!, but I was not able to figure out how shields aid the
>>>defense
>>>of character. Could you, please, explain or cite the shield rules?
>>>
>>>
>>I don't have Elric!, but on the basis of assumption that it's at least
>>vaguely similar to Stormbringer (and RuneQuest, and other BRPGs), you use
>>a shield to parry. That is, unlike in D&D where a shield adds to basic
>>armour protection, you actively use a shield in attempt to block a blow as
>>you would parry with a weapon. So I'm guessing you'd find the rules for
>>shields under the those covering parrying (via the Parry skill, if that's
>>retained in Elric!).
>>
>>--
>>Ian R Malcomson
>>"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
>>
>>
>
>I am familiar with the rolls for parries in RQ2 and RQ3. It has been some
>time since I looked at Elric!, but my recollection is that there is not a
>shield skill. It was my thought that shields added a % to parry skill, but
>I was not able to find that explicity stated. From threads that I have read
>on rpg.net, I think that the various Stormbringer editions are pretty
>similar to Elric!
>
>
>
I seem to recall that in Elric!, for one attack per round you could
choose to either parry or block with a shield. The benefit of using a
shield is that it can soak more damage than most weapons.

In Stormbringer, I think the optimal decision would be to soak as many
skill points into Greatsword as one could, then parry and riposte ad
nauseum every battle. The enemy would actually do more damage to
himself attacking a riposter than standing still and letting the PC
whale on him.

--

The majestic equality of the law forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

Anatole France


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