Kobolds and Classes

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Page 161 of the Monster Manual states that kobolds with levels in NPC
classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.

This means that both a kobold with 4 levels of Warrior and a kobold with
1 level of Fighter have the same CR (1).

Let's examine this a bit, shall we?

4th Level Kobold Warrior gets:
4d10 Hit Dice
+4 BAB
2 Feats
+1 to one Stat (Let's bump his Strength up from 9 to 10)

1st Level Kobold Fighter gets:
1d10 Hit Dice
+1 BAB
2 Feats (One of which must be a Fighter Bonus Feat)

Which of these two is actually more of a threat to a 1st level party?
Even if we give the Fighter maximum hit points at 1st level, and not the
Warrior, the Fighter has 10 hit points and the Warrior has an average of
22. And the Warrior will have a +4 advantage over the Fighter in combat
if he puts that extra stat point into Strength.


It gets weirder if we have a kobold with one or more levels of Warrior
and several other levels in a PC class. What CR is a kobold
Expert1/Rogue3? Is it CR 1 (because "kobolds with levels in NPC classes
have a CR equal to their character level -3")? Is it CR 3 (because we
count PC classes and NPC classes separately)? Is it CR 4 (because once
the kobold takes even one PC class level, all of his levels count as PC
classes)?

The second option seems to make the most sense to me, although it isn't
the RAW. Even then, we have a situation where a kobold Fighter1 has the
same CR as the kobold Fighter1/Warrior3.

Does anyone else think this is funked up?

- Ron ^*^

 

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Meepo for King!

Gerald Katz

 

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Werebat wrote:
>
> Page 161 of the Monster Manual states that kobolds with levels in NPC
> classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
>
> This means that both a kobold with 4 levels of Warrior and a kobold with
> 1 level of Fighter have the same CR (1).
>
> Let's examine this a bit, shall we?
>
> 4th Level Kobold Warrior gets:
> 4d10 Hit Dice
> +4 BAB
> 2 Feats
> +1 to one Stat (Let's bump his Strength up from 9 to 10)
>
> 1st Level Kobold Fighter gets:
> 1d10 Hit Dice
> +1 BAB
> 2 Feats (One of which must be a Fighter Bonus Feat)
>
> Which of these two is actually more of a threat to a 1st level party?
> Even if we give the Fighter maximum hit points at 1st level, and not the
> Warrior, the Fighter has 10 hit points and the Warrior has an average of
> 22. And the Warrior will have a +4 advantage over the Fighter in combat
> if he puts that extra stat point into Strength.
>
>
> It gets weirder if we have a kobold with one or more levels of Warrior
> and several other levels in a PC class. What CR is a kobold
> Expert1/Rogue3? Is it CR 1 (because "kobolds with levels in NPC classes
> have a CR equal to their character level -3")? Is it CR 3 (because we
> count PC classes and NPC classes separately)? Is it CR 4 (because once
> the kobold takes even one PC class level, all of his levels count as PC
> classes)?
>
> The second option seems to make the most sense to me, although it isn't
> the RAW. Even then, we have a situation where a kobold Fighter1 has the
> same CR as the kobold Fighter1/Warrior3.
>
> Does anyone else think this is funked up?
>
> - Ron ^*^
>
You're forgetting one very important difference between a creature with
NPC classes and a monster with character classes. The elite stat array.

A 4th level Kobold warrior has the following book stats:
10 STR 13 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 9 Wis 8 Chr

And really, that's cheating. A creature with NPC classes ought to have
the standard array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Which would place the 4th
level kobold at 8 Str 13 Dex 9 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 10 Chr. Given
that the poor sap will have 14 hit points by 4th level and be at a net +
7 to hit with weapon focus and weapon finesse. However, to get that
rather good bonus to hit, he'll have to be using a light weapon, which
means 1d2-2 or 1d3-2 points of damage. With a small spear, he'll be at
best doing 1d6-2 points of damage with a +3 to hit (again assuming
weapon focus). One of him *might* be a challenge for a first level
party. It might take two of the buggers.

A 1st level Kobold Fighter with the elite array will likely have stats
that look like this: 11 Str 16 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 8 Chr.
With a shortsword that he has weapon focus with, he'll have a +2 to hit
and deal 1d6 damage. If he has a weapon finesse item and weapon focus,
he'll be at +5 to hit and deal 1d2 or 1d3 damage. He will have exactly
10 hit points and have just slightly worse saves. While he won't hit
quite as well as the 4th level kobold warrior, he'll deal more damage.

Frankly, I don't really see the problem in that scenario. The only
problem I see is when you try to game the system and mix the two
categories of classes, which in my opinion ought never be intermingled.

 

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Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>4th Level Kobold Warrior gets:
>4d10 Hit Dice

Technically, Warriors get d8s.

>+4 BAB
>2 Feats
>+1 to one Stat (Let's bump his Strength up from 9 to 10)

You forgot "base saves of +4/+1/+1", and "3 additional levels' worth
of skills, though Warriors don't get Craft as a class skill"


>1st Level Kobold Fighter gets:
>1d10 Hit Dice
>+1 BAB
>2 Feats (One of which must be a Fighter Bonus Feat)

and "base saves of +2/+0/+0"


Donald

 

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In article <rieFe.9$Tr6.7@lakeread02>, Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net> wrote:
>And really, that's cheating. A creature with NPC classes ought to have
>the standard array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Which would place the 4th
>level kobold at 8 Str 13 Dex 9 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 10 Chr. Given
>that the poor sap will have 14 hit points by 4th level and be at a net +
>7 to hit with weapon focus and weapon finesse. However, to get that
>rather good bonus to hit, he'll have to be using a light weapon, which
>means 1d2-2 or 1d3-2 points of damage. With a small spear, he'll be at
>best doing 1d6-2 points of damage with a +3 to hit (again assuming
>weapon focus). One of him *might* be a challenge for a first level
>party. It might take two of the buggers.


How about a small rapier with weapon finesse? 1d4, 18-20/x2...

Or a small spiked chain? If he takes Expertise, I'm reasonably sure
one with a short sword (1d4) would be able to take a 1st level PC
Fighter over enough rounds. Four on one may be a problem, though.

Donald

 

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In article <dc3sbf$26ne$1@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Donald Tsang <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>How about a small rapier with weapon finesse? 1d4, 18-20/x2...
>
>Or a small spiked chain? If he takes Expertise, I'm reasonably sure
>one with a short sword (1d4) would be able to take a 1st level PC
>Fighter over enough rounds. Four on one may be a problem, though.

Oops, Combat Expertise requires Int 13, doesn't it?

Oh well. Even so, a Warrior 4 is certainly no worse than a Fighter 1,
except in the amount of XP awarded to the character for defeating the
same foe..

Donald

 

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Raphael Russell wrote:

> Werebat wrote:
>
>>
>> Page 161 of the Monster Manual states that kobolds with levels in NPC
>> classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
>>
>> This means that both a kobold with 4 levels of Warrior and a kobold
>> with 1 level of Fighter have the same CR (1).
>>
>> Let's examine this a bit, shall we?
>>
>> 4th Level Kobold Warrior gets:
>> 4d10 Hit Dice
>> +4 BAB
>> 2 Feats
>> +1 to one Stat (Let's bump his Strength up from 9 to 10)
>>
>> 1st Level Kobold Fighter gets:
>> 1d10 Hit Dice
>> +1 BAB
>> 2 Feats (One of which must be a Fighter Bonus Feat)
>>
>> Which of these two is actually more of a threat to a 1st level party?
>> Even if we give the Fighter maximum hit points at 1st level, and not
>> the Warrior, the Fighter has 10 hit points and the Warrior has an
>> average of 22. And the Warrior will have a +4 advantage over the
>> Fighter in combat if he puts that extra stat point into Strength.
>>
>>
>> It gets weirder if we have a kobold with one or more levels of Warrior
>> and several other levels in a PC class. What CR is a kobold
>> Expert1/Rogue3? Is it CR 1 (because "kobolds with levels in NPC
>> classes have a CR equal to their character level -3")? Is it CR 3
>> (because we count PC classes and NPC classes separately)? Is it CR 4
>> (because once the kobold takes even one PC class level, all of his
>> levels count as PC classes)?
>>
>> The second option seems to make the most sense to me, although it
>> isn't the RAW. Even then, we have a situation where a kobold Fighter1
>> has the same CR as the kobold Fighter1/Warrior3.
>>
>> Does anyone else think this is funked up?
>>
>> - Ron ^*^
>>
> You're forgetting one very important difference between a creature with
> NPC classes and a monster with character classes. The elite stat array.
>
> A 4th level Kobold warrior has the following book stats:
> 10 STR 13 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 9 Wis 8 Chr
>
> And really, that's cheating.

Why?


> A creature with NPC classes ought to have
> the standard array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10.

Why? Is the MM lying or something?


> Which would place the 4th
> level kobold at 8 Str 13 Dex 9 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 10 Chr. Given
> that the poor sap will have 14 hit points by 4th level and be at a net +
> 7 to hit with weapon focus and weapon finesse.

Right -- or a +5 to hit with weapon focus and a larger weapon, like a
longsword that does 1d6-1 damage. That's considerably better than the
1st level warrior (even if we give him his elite array, which adds to
his CR IIRC), who gets +3 to hit and does 1d6 damage with weapon focus
and same longsword. Odds are with the Warrior here.


> A 1st level Kobold Fighter with the elite array will likely have stats
> that look like this: 11 Str 16 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 8 Chr.
> With a shortsword that he has weapon focus with, he'll have a +2 to hit
> and deal 1d6 damage. If he has a weapon finesse item and weapon focus,
> he'll be at +5 to hit and deal 1d2 or 1d3 damage. He will have exactly
> 10 hit points and have just slightly worse saves.

Yes, and the 4th level warrior will have close to twice as many hit
points. Insignificant? I think not. And this is with me GIVING you
the "elite array" thing, when the entire MM book gives warriors
something other than the standard array.


> While he won't hit
> quite as well as the 4th level kobold warrior, he'll deal more damage.

Barely. I'd rather have +2 to hit than +1 to damage.


> Frankly, I don't really see the problem in that scenario. The only
> problem I see is when you try to game the system and mix the two
> categories of classes, which in my opinion ought never be intermingled.

I agree that the designers probably didn't intend for the types to be
mingled... Although I have seen several adventures and modules where
they are mingled (often with Aristocrats).

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat wrote:
>
>
> Why? Is the MM lying or something?
>

In effect, yeah. It states elsewhere that NPCs with NPC classes should
use the standard stat array and yet the kobold warrior uses a weakened
elite array. Giving the kobold warrior decent fight stats and easy to
dump bad stats doesn't mean much as a warrior 1, but when you start
adding levels means that his racial negatives have less of an impact
than they should. If you give a creature better stats than what he
should (according to rules printed elsewhere in the same book) then it
throws off the model that a kobold's NPC CR should be 3 less than the
total number of levels.

>
> Yes, and the 4th level warrior will have close to twice as many hit
> points. Insignificant? I think not. And this is with me GIVING you
> the "elite array" thing, when the entire MM book gives warriors
> something other than the standard array.

If the kobold warrior 4 uses the standard array, he only has 4 more
hitpoints than the kobold fighter 1. This of course assumes the NPC
does not get max hit points at lvl 1 and the Fighter does.

One last thing. Giving the Kobold Fighter the elite array does not
increase his CR because monsters with PC class levels are assumed to
have the elite array and presumably this is factored into their higher
CRs. Essentially, my read of it is that NPC classes should invariably =
standard array and PC classes should = elite array.

 

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Raphael Russell wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
> >
> > Page 161 of the Monster Manual states that kobolds with levels in NPC
> > classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
> >
> > This means that both a kobold with 4 levels of Warrior and a kobold with
> > 1 level of Fighter have the same CR (1).
> >
> > Let's examine this a bit, shall we?
> >
> > 4th Level Kobold Warrior gets:
> > 4d10 Hit Dice
> > +4 BAB
> > 2 Feats
> > +1 to one Stat (Let's bump his Strength up from 9 to 10)
> >
> > 1st Level Kobold Fighter gets:
> > 1d10 Hit Dice
> > +1 BAB
> > 2 Feats (One of which must be a Fighter Bonus Feat)
> >
> > Which of these two is actually more of a threat to a 1st level party?
> > Even if we give the Fighter maximum hit points at 1st level, and not the
> > Warrior, the Fighter has 10 hit points and the Warrior has an average of
> > 22. And the Warrior will have a +4 advantage over the Fighter in combat
> > if he puts that extra stat point into Strength.
> >
> >
> > It gets weirder if we have a kobold with one or more levels of Warrior
> > and several other levels in a PC class. What CR is a kobold
> > Expert1/Rogue3? Is it CR 1 (because "kobolds with levels in NPC classes
> > have a CR equal to their character level -3")? Is it CR 3 (because we
> > count PC classes and NPC classes separately)? Is it CR 4 (because once
> > the kobold takes even one PC class level, all of his levels count as PC
> > classes)?
> >
> > The second option seems to make the most sense to me, although it isn't
> > the RAW. Even then, we have a situation where a kobold Fighter1 has the
> > same CR as the kobold Fighter1/Warrior3.
> >
> > Does anyone else think this is funked up?
> >
> > - Ron ^*^
> >
> You're forgetting one very important difference between a creature with
> NPC classes and a monster with character classes. The elite stat array.
>
> A 4th level Kobold warrior has the following book stats:
> 10 STR 13 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 9 Wis 8 Chr
>

> And really, that's cheating. A creature with NPC classes ought to have
> the standard array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. Which would place the 4th
> level kobold at 8 Str 13 Dex 9 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 10 Chr. Given
> that the poor sap will have 14 hit points by 4th level and be at a net +
> 7 to hit with weapon focus and weapon finesse. However, to get that
> rather good bonus to hit, he'll have to be using a light weapon, which
> means 1d2-2 or 1d3-2 points of damage. With a small spear, he'll be at
> best doing 1d6-2 points of damage with a +3 to hit (again assuming
> weapon focus). One of him *might* be a challenge for a first level
> party. It might take two of the buggers.
>

Actually he should be using a ranged weapon, such as bow or crossbow as
much as possible, and staying the hell away from the PCs, a bow or
crossbow. So he's doing d6 or d8, since neither are affected by poor
str. And the first stat array is correct. NPC classes now get 13 12
11 10 9 8.

Then there's equipment... But i'm not entirely sure how you equip a 4th
lv NPC classed Kobold.

But in any case Kobolds are all screwed up on CR &/or LA.

- Justisaur

 

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Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>Actually he should be using a ranged weapon, such as bow or crossbow as
>much as possible, and staying the hell away from the PCs, a bow or
>crossbow. So he's doing d6 or d8, since neither are affected by poor
>str.

From the SRD 3.5 (Combat section, under Damage):

Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon,
including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage
result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks
made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

I'm not entirely sure they meant to make strength penalties not apply
to composite bows; I rather think they meant that only "strength"
composite bows allow strength bonuses to be applied.

Donald

 

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On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:12:36 -0500, Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> If the kobold warrior 4 uses the standard array, he only has 4 more
> hitpoints than the kobold fighter 1. This of course assumes the NPC
> does not get max hit points at lvl 1 and the Fighter does.
>
> One last thing. Giving the Kobold Fighter the elite array does not
> increase his CR because monsters with PC class levels are assumed to
> have the elite array and presumably this is factored into their higher
> CRs. Essentially, my read of it is that NPC classes should invariably =
> standard array and PC classes should = elite array.

That's true in v3.0, but in v3.5 there's this thing called the
"non-elite array", and characters that have NPC class level tend to
use it, leaving the standard array for monsters with only monster
levels.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:12:36 -0500, Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net>
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>
>>If the kobold warrior 4 uses the standard array, he only has 4 more
>>hitpoints than the kobold fighter 1. This of course assumes the NPC
>>does not get max hit points at lvl 1 and the Fighter does.
>>
>>One last thing. Giving the Kobold Fighter the elite array does not
>>increase his CR because monsters with PC class levels are assumed to
>>have the elite array and presumably this is factored into their higher
>>CRs. Essentially, my read of it is that NPC classes should invariably =
>>standard array and PC classes should = elite array.
>
>
> That's true in v3.0, but in v3.5 there's this thing called the
> "non-elite array", and characters that have NPC class level tend to
> use it, leaving the standard array for monsters with only monster
> levels.

A-HA!

I knew there was something funny about Raphael's assertions! He's a
*3.0* *grognard*!!! :^)

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat wrote:
>
>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:12:36 -0500, Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net>
>> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>>
>>
>>> If the kobold warrior 4 uses the standard array, he only has 4 more
>>> hitpoints than the kobold fighter 1. This of course assumes the NPC
>>> does not get max hit points at lvl 1 and the Fighter does.
>>>
>>> One last thing. Giving the Kobold Fighter the elite array does not
>>> increase his CR because monsters with PC class levels are assumed to
>>> have the elite array and presumably this is factored into their
>>> higher CRs. Essentially, my read of it is that NPC classes should
>>> invariably = standard array and PC classes should = elite array.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's true in v3.0, but in v3.5 there's this thing called the
>> "non-elite array", and characters that have NPC class level tend to
>> use it, leaving the standard array for monsters with only monster
>> levels.
>
>
> A-HA!
>
> I knew there was something funny about Raphael's assertions! He's a
> *3.0* *grognard*!!! :^)
>
> - Ron ^*^
>

Where is this array at? MM 3.5 or the SRD?

 

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Werebat wrote:
>
> Page 161 of the Monster Manual states that kobolds with levels in NPC
> classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
>
> This means that both a kobold with 4 levels of Warrior and a kobold with
> 1 level of Fighter have the same CR (1).
<snip>
> Does anyone else think this is funked up?

Kobolds who aren't NPC classes are supposed to be a Src, not a
melee guy. The best NPC caster is an Adept, which probably rates better
than -3 CR with a Kobold.

Their Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians /are/ a bit pants, even
with the elite array, mounted on Dire Weasels and charging you with a
little lance. Not too bad as archers behind cover of traps and pitfalls.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

 

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Donald Tsang wrote:

> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Actually he should be using a ranged weapon, such as bow or crossbow as
>>much as possible, and staying the hell away from the PCs, a bow or
>>crossbow. So he's doing d6 or d8, since neither are affected by poor
>>str.
>
>
> From the SRD 3.5 (Combat section, under Damage):
>
> Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon,
> including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage
> result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks
> made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
>
> I'm not entirely sure they meant to make strength penalties not apply
> to composite bows; I rather think they meant that only "strength"
> composite bows allow strength bonuses to be applied.

I wouldn't think the penalty would apply to a crossbow.

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>> Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon,
>> including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage
>> result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks
>> made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
>>
>> I'm not entirely sure they meant to make strength penalties not apply
>> to composite bows; I rather think they meant that only "strength"
>> composite bows allow strength bonuses to be applied.
>
>I wouldn't think the penalty would apply to a crossbow.

I'm pretty sure a "crossbow" isn't a "bow" in this context, in any case.

Donald

 

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Donald Tsang wrote:
> Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>> Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon,
>>> including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage
>>> result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks
>>> made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
>>>
>>>I'm not entirely sure they meant to make strength penalties not apply
>>>to composite bows; I rather think they meant that only "strength"
>>>composite bows allow strength bonuses to be applied.
>>
>>I wouldn't think the penalty would apply to a crossbow.
>
>
> I'm pretty sure a "crossbow" isn't a "bow" in this context, in any case.

Probably not, but I'm sure some DMs are enforcing the rules that way.

- Ron ^*^