Outsiders(evil) and The Undead

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
> Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in intensity
> to that of an
> outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
>
>
> Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
> outsiders who are merely evil]
> have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so forth.
> So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class feature
> of evil clerics,
> yet I can't find any statement that they do.
>
>
> Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
> It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty pointless
> without it.
> It looks like designer intent. But is it?

IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.

- Justisaur

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122482357.081220.309790@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
> > > Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in
> intensity
> > > to that of an
> > > outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
> > >
> > >
> > > Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
> > > outsiders who are merely evil]
> > > have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so
> forth.
> > > So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class
> feature
> > > of evil clerics,
> > > yet I can't find any statement that they do.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
> > > It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty
> pointless
> > > without it.
> > > It looks like designer intent. But is it?
> >
> > IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
> > created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.
>
> For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.

Well that certainly seems odd. I looked up the only one i can remember
that gets create undead offhand - the pit fiend. I don't see that it
has any other way to controll the undead. This seems even odder for an
LE type to go about creating undead that he can't control. I'd say
give him an additional spell like ability of control or command undead.


Although I found the ability quite useful as a DM, I had my evil Lich
call one of these guys and start using the ability to create an army of
undead. Since it doesn't use the very expensive material component...

- Justisaur

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122506978.975094.96350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
>
> Well that certainly seems odd.

Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!

-Michael

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:WvXFe.56$Bf.1267@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

>>> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
>>>
>>> Well that certainly seems odd.
>>
>> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
>> malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
>> employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
>> first!
>
> You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan
> - is just what a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.
>

Create undead doesn't typically make mindless creatures. It creates ghouls,
ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
> the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
> pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.

You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply because
the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to
me. Read on...

What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two ghouls might
decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open) than the human in the Full
Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

Hell if I was DM and a player/NPC summoned undead and couldn't control them, I sure
as hell would play the ghoul/ghast/whatever on its merits and it would do what IT
wanted to do. Either the pit fiend controls it, or it doesn't.

I reckon it should.


Tim

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
news:bVZFe.70$Bf.1732@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> The undead thing might be equally scared of 'whatever it is' that the Pit
Fiend is
> facing.

In which case, you have the thing the ghoul is afraid of (and cannot
hurt), and the thing the ghoul *hates* and is afraid of. Easy decision.

> It might be an Arch Angel of some sort, probably even more scarey to the
> Ghoul that Ol' Fiery. No?

Again, you have this miraculous gift of failing to exercise your mind.
Why, pray tell, would a Fiend waste his time - or his breath - creating
*ghouls* to help in a fight against ANGELS?

It is a very bad sign when your objections revolve around stupidity and
irrelevance.

-Michael

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:uEZFe.68$Bf.1699@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

>> ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so
>> from the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a
>> matter of pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
>
> You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat
> simply because the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them?
> Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to me. Read on...
>
> What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two
> ghouls might decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open)
> than the human in the Full Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
Undead?

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
> Undead?

Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

Tim

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
newsH%Fe.280$Bf.2249@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> No shock at all. But it does highlight the fact that the Pit Fiend would
rather
> summon something he can _definitely_ control instead of something he has
to coerce
> into his fold.

You just said that about a DEVIL.

<shakes head sadly>

-Michael

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:21:43 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> carved upon a
tablet of ether:

> Have you considered that whatever is attacking the Pit Fiend may be every bit as
> scarey as the Pit Fiend. A couple of High Priests of Pelor, for example. What then?

Pit Fiends have Int26, Wis26. Are you seriously suggesting they'd
bother creating ghouls and ghasts if faced with something as scary
they are?

A pit fiend's Create Undead ability is useful in all kinds of ways
that don't require direct control of the resulting being - bargain
with it, let it loose somewhere where it wants a bit of fear and
panic, or create it for a minion to control.

> IMC, he'll have control over it as he's the one who summoned/created it. In your
> campaign, you can do it your way - and declare the ghoul as a creature with freewill,
> but (as you've indicated) actually play it as just another flunky who would do
> exactly what the Pit Fiend says anyway. Great "freewill" you've given your NPC's,
> champ. Good game, Bob. <backs away slowly>

Does this ruling apply to normal spellcasters as well?


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122506978.975094.96350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
> >
> > Well that certainly seems odd.
>
> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
> malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
> strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
>

Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
it were demons doing it.

- Justisaur

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
> > strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
>
> Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
> it were demons doing it.

Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action. The
undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it had
anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid, and I
will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.

-Michael

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume, minions-
> allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful forces like
> high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other devils is a grave
> risk. One screw-up that the devil does not anticipate (which he will have
> a hard time doing given their irrational chaotic minds) could lead to
> disaster.

Chaotic does not mean irrational.

> Of course, creating masses of chaotic intelligent free-willed
> undead can lead to disaster for the pit fiend outside of battle. They
> could sell-out the devil to another fiend, cause too much havoc that
> disrupts life in the Hells or threatens the long-term interests of the
> Lords of Baator, even overwhelm the fiend in numbers when he not
> expecting trouble.

Come off it. Have a look at the Pit Fiend writeup.

> Even if the fiend survives he is going to lose respect
> from the devilish hierarchy for his foolish use of undead as a crutch.

Just as Pit Fiends who use their innate ability to throw Fireballs are
looked down on for using a crutch. Only those who bore their foes to
death are the Real Deal. Eschew all crutches! Throw away your
spell-like abilities, your natural attacks, and your immunities, and
be free!

> Pit fiends are going to use their Create Undead ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct order
> from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Blasphemy ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Fireball ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Greater Teleport ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Invisibility ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Magic Circle Against Good ability in
very careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking
a direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Mass Hold Monster ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Persistent Image ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Power Word Stun ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Unholy Aura ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

All these abilities, including Create Undead, are 'at will' and cost
the Pit Fiend _nothing_. Why in the heck shouldn't the fiend use them
whenever it's useful to it? The abilities that need to be used
carefully are Meteor Swarm (it's only useable once a day), and Wish
(once a year).

> They could use the undead to rampage on the
> Material Plane, and some rogue devils will, but that is more the style of
> demons such as Orcus. And if the fiend just raises undead and leaves them
> to wander without any direction... unless he is under orders or there is
> a good reason that profits the cause of Hell; the pit fiend will soon
> come under "review" from his masters in my view.

But he can give orders, and with his Diplomacy, and (especially)
Intimidate bonuses, he's good every reason to expect they'll be
obeyed, at least in the short term.

Create undead isn't something a Pit Fiend will use al the time, but it
has its uses, especially as a terror weapon, and there's no need for
it to include the ability to control the undead for it to be useful to
the fiend.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
newsjnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
>
> Chaotic does not mean irrational.


Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.


>> Of course, creating masses of chaotic intelligent free-willed
>> undead can lead to disaster for the pit fiend outside of battle. They
>> could sell-out the devil to another fiend, cause too much havoc that
>> disrupts life in the Hells or threatens the long-term interests of
>> the Lords of Baator, even overwhelm the fiend in numbers when he not
>> expecting trouble.
>
> Come off it. Have a look at the Pit Fiend writeup.

A stretch I agree if we consider only the Pit Fiend and the undead. But
they can weaken him with some unlucky rolls. And the Pit Fiend probably
has many enemies that could take advantage of the situation if they were
watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually. And the undead
horde can always rampage through the devil's other minions and property
wreaking his power base. Ghouls just love doing that.


>> Even if the fiend survives he is going to lose respect
>> from the devilish hierarchy for his foolish use of undead as a
>> crutch.
>
> Just as Pit Fiends who use their innate ability to throw Fireballs are
> looked down on for using a crutch. Only those who bore their foes to
> death are the Real Deal. Eschew all crutches! Throw away your
> spell-like abilities, your natural attacks, and your immunities, and
> be free!
>
>> Pit fiends are going to use their Create Undead ability in very
>> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
>> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Blasphemy ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Fireball ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Greater Teleport ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Invisibility ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Magic Circle Against Good ability in
> very careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking
> a direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Mass Hold Monster ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Persistent Image ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Power Word Stun ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Unholy Aura ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> All these abilities, including Create Undead, are 'at will' and cost
> the Pit Fiend _nothing_. Why in the heck shouldn't the fiend use them
> whenever it's useful to it? The abilities that need to be used
> carefully are Meteor Swarm (it's only useable once a day), and Wish
> (once a year).

Because these spell-like abilities are not creating intelligent free-
willed undead. The devil is in complete control of these immediate
effects.

>> They could use the undead to rampage on the
>> Material Plane, and some rogue devils will, but that is more the
>> style of demons such as Orcus. And if the fiend just raises undead
>> and leaves them to wander without any direction... unless he is under
>> orders or there is a good reason that profits the cause of Hell; the
>> pit fiend will soon come under "review" from his masters in my view.
>
> But he can give orders, and with his Diplomacy, and (especially)
> Intimidate bonuses, he's good every reason to expect they'll be
> obeyed, at least in the short term.
>
> Create undead isn't something a Pit Fiend will use al the time, but it
> has its uses, especially as a terror weapon, and there's no need for
> it to include the ability to control the undead for it to be useful to
> the fiend.

I don't want the pit fiend to have the ability to control undead. And yes
I believe pit fiends will use Create Undead in moderation. They have
earned the right to have that power. I just think the devils generally
speaking have not cracked the demonic mindset yet (assuming things like
the Blood War). I think chaotic undead like ghouls come close to some
demonic mindsets. Therefore, I'm just pointing out some problems the pit
fiends may encounter in their use of create undead. I believe pit fiends
are well aware of these potential pitfalls.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
> newsjnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
> > upon a tablet of ether:
> >
> >> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
> >> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
> >> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
> >> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
> >> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
> >> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
> >
> > Chaotic does not mean irrational.
>
>
> Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.

Says who?

> A stretch I agree if we consider only the Pit Fiend and the undead. But
> they can weaken him with some unlucky rolls. And the Pit Fiend probably
> has many enemies that could take advantage of the situation if they were
> watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
> will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually. And the undead
> horde can always rampage through the devil's other minions and property
> wreaking his power base. Ghouls just love doing that.

That is so much bollocks. It requires the devil and it's favoured
minions be complete morons.

> Because these spell-like abilities are not creating intelligent free-
> willed undead. The devil is in complete control of these immediate
> effects.

So?

> I don't want the pit fiend to have the ability to control undead. And yes
> I believe pit fiends will use Create Undead in moderation. They have
> earned the right to have that power. I just think the devils generally
> speaking have not cracked the demonic mindset yet (assuming things like
> the Blood War). I think chaotic undead like ghouls come close to some
> demonic mindsets. Therefore, I'm just pointing out some problems the pit
> fiends may encounter in their use of create undead. I believe pit fiends
> are well aware of these potential pitfalls.

And I think you have no real idea of the power and capabilities of a
pit fiend.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:kt7Ge.5608$0C.3464@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating
>> > hell-spawned
>> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
>> > employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
>> > first!
>>
>> Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
>> it were demons doing it.
>
> Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action.
> The
> undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
> intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it
> had anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid,
> and I will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.
>
> -Michael

Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear. Any intimidation will have
to be role-played; which should be interesting given various undead
mindsets. And the standard pit fiend only has a +10 Diplomacy modifier;
hostile and unfriendly undead like mohrgs and ghasts may not allow the pit
fiend the time for a diplomacy check, and the fiend can't rally afford the
-10 penalty to rush the check. Mummies would be a better bet for the fiend
to sway to his side though. The devil could use overwhelming force to
convince the undead to see things his way, but that is using intimidation
more than diplomacy in game terms. And using coercive methods on chaotic
psychopathic undead may backfire; they hate being forced to do anything. I
suppose the best way would be to trick the undead into helping the devil
but many of these undead monsters are hardly unwise and dumb.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
news:0ttie190eeh588upkpq8vhj4o73jacpav8@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
>> newsjnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
>>
>> > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
>> > upon a tablet of ether:
>> >
>> >> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
>> >> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
>> >> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
>> >> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
>> >> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
>> >> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
>> >
>> > Chaotic does not mean irrational.
>>
>>
>> Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.
>
> Says who?
>
>> A stretch I agree if we consider only the Pit Fiend and the undead.
>> But they can weaken him with some unlucky rolls. And the Pit Fiend
>> probably has many enemies that could take advantage of the situation
>> if they were watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are
>> smart they probably will be in league with the devil's enemies
>> eventually. And the undead horde can always rampage through the
>> devil's other minions and property wreaking his power base. Ghouls
>> just love doing that.
>
> That is so much bollocks. It requires the devil and it's favoured
> minions be complete morons.

Bearded devils Int 6, Chain devils Int 6 .. just from the Core. The pit
fiend can't be overseeing his chaotic undead masses of mobs all the time.
Oh, I just thought about the mob subtype on DMG II. Nasty!


>> Because these spell-like abilities are not creating intelligent free-
>> willed undead. The devil is in complete control of these immediate
>> effects.
>
> So?
>
>> I don't want the pit fiend to have the ability to control undead. And
>> yes I believe pit fiends will use Create Undead in moderation. They
>> have earned the right to have that power. I just think the devils
>> generally speaking have not cracked the demonic mindset yet (assuming
>> things like the Blood War). I think chaotic undead like ghouls come
>> close to some demonic mindsets. Therefore, I'm just pointing out some
>> problems the pit fiends may encounter in their use of create undead.
>> I believe pit fiends are well aware of these potential pitfalls.
>
> And I think you have no real idea of the power and capabilities of a
> pit fiend.

I'm just trying to take the larger context of how devils and free-willed
undead can operate. Pit fiends are the masters of power yes... but some
of these undead may not respect that. I believe pit fiends take that into
consideration along with a lot of larger issues when they create undead.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:37:15 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> ... Really? I'm using the SRD primarily these days, and the Abilities and
> Conditions file doesn't mention anything about the time to use a spell-
> like ability, suggesting to me that it's the same as the spell. I'll do a
> file search and see if I've missed something.

The DMG doesn't mention time, the MM does.


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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:35:26 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> Bearded devils Int 6, Chain devils Int 6 .. just from the Core. The pit
> fiend can't be overseeing his chaotic undead masses of mobs all the time.
> Oh, I just thought about the mob subtype on DMG II. Nasty!

That'd be a great use for a bunch of ghouls, actually. As for the dumb
devils - the ones you listed are cannon-fodder, and not the ones in
charge of security and ghoul wrangling. Instead you have Hamatula (Int
12, Wis 14, Cha 18) and Osyluth (Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14), and Gelugon
(Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 20). That's the sort of job these guys are suited
for (heck, they're even listed as bodyguards and leaders), and they
have the grunt to back up their high Intimidate bonuses.

> I'm just trying to take the larger context of how devils and free-willed
> undead can operate. Pit fiends are the masters of power yes... but some
> of these undead may not respect that. I believe pit fiends take that into
> consideration along with a lot of larger issues when they create undead.

Yeah. Create a few dozen undead, then tear a couple apart in front of
the others to make the chain of command perfectly clear.


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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
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should be free."

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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
news:a4gje1hgqaphcbgir4drriegaddlk3njq9@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:37:15 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> ... Really? I'm using the SRD primarily these days, and the Abilities
>> and Conditions file doesn't mention anything about the time to use a
>> spell- like ability, suggesting to me that it's the same as the
>> spell. I'll do a file search and see if I've missed something.
>
> The DMG doesn't mention time, the MM does.
>
>

Can't find mention of it anywhere in the SRD, neither in A&C or in the
Monsters intro. Hmmm.

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On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
>news:aniie1dc664blbffgjr4lnno3ikglbaovq@4ax.com:
>> In what way are such undead even the remotest threat to a Pit Fiend?
>> It isn't creating Liches...ghouls and ghasts.
>
>Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume, minions-

That would be anything he doesn't have immediate control over. Since
I doubt the Fiend is going to restrict himself to working solely with
Dominated servants, the issues you mention next will always be
prevalent to some degree.


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On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:22:37 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> dared speak in
front of ME:

>> If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
>> Undead?
>
>Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

..au
Burke?
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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:37:01 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> dared speak in
front of ME:

>> Yeah. Create a few dozen undead, then tear a couple apart in front of
>> the others to make the chain of command perfectly clear.
>
>And watch 'em piss off at their earliest convenience.

Unless it's more convenient to stick around.

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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:57:01 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> Hitting the fiend won't be difficult with a touch AC 17 and the mohrg +12
> melee touch bonus. And pit fiends are such a large target; all those
> mohrgs ganging up on him with a 5% chance for paralysis
> for minutes each time the devil is hit.

And then the fiend leaves, paralysed or not (Teleport Without Error,
and a huge Concentration bonus).

> But you make an excellent point about spell-like abilities being mental
> actions. So really, there should be a well-developed plot to kill the pit
> fiend. High level creatures would have countermeasures like anti-magic
> while the fiend is paralyzed, then dismiss it to coup the devil with a
> holy silver weapon. If these powerful enemies were already on the
> battlefield near the pit fiend... there could be a good chance for one
> dead devil. They have an excellent chance of being able to bring down the
> pit fiend since if they have prepared to face the devil; they have the
> weapons and speed and power to take advantage of a good situation. And if
> the mohrgs make plans in advance with the fiends enemies, and strike at
> the right time... Well, I think pit fiends with their superhuman
> intellect must consider these possibilities, and thus are careful around
> free-willed undead.

Why? All that plotting will happen, free-willed undead or not. They
are less of a threat than the fiend's immediate allies and
subordinates. Pit Fiend's live in a LE society, so planning for this
sort of back-stabbing is business as usual, and nothing special or
worthy of particular mention. CR8 undead are way down the list of
risky things to be around.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:21:56 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> The impression I get from D&D game texts and even D&D novels is that
> undead like ghouls and mohrgs are always filled with homicidal rage. They
> may be able to behave intelligently, but the fundamental motivation of
> their behavior is very irrational.

How is homicidal rage irrational?


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."