Outsiders(evil) and The Undead

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in intensity
to that of an
outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.


Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
outsiders who are merely evil]
have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so forth.
So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class feature
of evil clerics,
yet I can't find any statement that they do.


Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty pointless
without it.
It looks like designer intent. But is it?
168 answers Last reply
More about outsiders evil undead
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
    > Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in intensity
    > to that of an
    > outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
    >
    >
    > Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
    > outsiders who are merely evil]
    > have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so forth.
    > So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class feature
    > of evil clerics,
    > yet I can't find any statement that they do.
    >
    >
    > Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
    > It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty pointless
    > without it.
    > It looks like designer intent. But is it?

    IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
    created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.

    - Justisaur
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
    > Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:1122482357.081220.309790@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    > >
    > >
    > > pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
    > > > Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in
    > intensity
    > > > to that of an
    > > > outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
    > > > outsiders who are merely evil]
    > > > have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so
    > forth.
    > > > So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class
    > feature
    > > > of evil clerics,
    > > > yet I can't find any statement that they do.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
    > > > It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty
    > pointless
    > > > without it.
    > > > It looks like designer intent. But is it?
    > >
    > > IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
    > > created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.
    >
    > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.

    Well that certainly seems odd. I looked up the only one i can remember
    that gets create undead offhand - the pit fiend. I don't see that it
    has any other way to controll the undead. This seems even odder for an
    LE type to go about creating undead that he can't control. I'd say
    give him an additional spell like ability of control or command undead.


    Although I found the ability quite useful as a DM, I had my evil Lich
    call one of these guys and start using the ability to create an army of
    undead. Since it doesn't use the very expensive material component...

    - Justisaur
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1122482357.081220.309790@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    >
    >
    > pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
    > > Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in
    intensity
    > > to that of an
    > > outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
    > >
    > >
    > > Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
    > > outsiders who are merely evil]
    > > have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so
    forth.
    > > So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class
    feature
    > > of evil clerics,
    > > yet I can't find any statement that they do.
    > >
    > >
    > > Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
    > > It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty
    pointless
    > > without it.
    > > It looks like designer intent. But is it?
    >
    > IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
    > created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.

    For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1122506978.975094.96350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    > > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
    >
    > Well that certainly seems odd.

    Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
    malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
    strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!

    -Michael
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Michael Scott Brown wrote:
    > "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:1122506978.975094.96350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    > > > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
    > >
    > > Well that certainly seems odd.
    >
    > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
    > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
    > strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
    >

    Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
    it were demons doing it.

    - Justisaur
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Tim wrote:
    > >> The undead thing might be equally scared of 'whatever it is' that the Pit
    > > Fiend is
    > >> facing.
    > >
    > > In which case, you have the thing the ghoul is afraid of (and cannot
    > > hurt), and the thing the ghoul *hates* and is afraid of. Easy decision.
    >
    > They hate all life, right, are you saying a Pit Fiend is not alive? Or is there a
    > section in the MM that I missed. Where does it say they hate angels, humans, Storm
    > giants and hippogriffs more than Pit Fiends?
    >

    I'm not entirely sure where it is, but all outsiders are made entirely
    of soul, they are basically transformed dead spirits, thus you cannot
    have undead outsiders... technically speaking the Pit Fiend has no
    brains to eat (although strangely would be killed by a mind flayers
    extract brain ability).

    The rules are unfortunately inconsistant in this instance.

    In any case creating a bunch of (mostly?) Chaotic Evil uncontrolled
    undead seem entirely out of character for a LE creature, that according
    to cannon is mostly fighting Chaotic Evil creatures over what ammounts
    to a dissagreement over law vs. chaos.

    I'm sure it was an oversite, there's plenty of those in the MM. I
    imagine the person revising, or creating the Pit Fiend assumed as I did
    that Create Undead had the built in ability to control the ones so
    created (or it was changed at some point and left hand never talked to
    right).

    - Justisaur
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    >>I figure you must be the resident troll, right?
    >
    > You betray the shallowness of your lurking. Ron is the resident toll;
    > MSB is the resident curmudgeon.

    Curmudgeon, nice word, and definitely applicable to his post. Thanks for the head's
    up!

    MSB - you're a curmudgeon of the highest order, then.

    cheers,

    Tim
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    >> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
    >>
    >> Well that certainly seems odd.
    >
    > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
    > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
    > strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!

    You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan - is just what
    a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.

    I like stories.


    Tim
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:WvXFe.56$Bf.1267@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

    >>> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
    >>>
    >>> Well that certainly seems odd.
    >>
    >> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
    >> malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
    >> employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
    >> first!
    >
    > You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan
    > - is just what a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.
    >

    Create undead doesn't typically make mindless creatures. It creates ghouls,
    ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
    the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
    pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:54:12 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> dared speak in
    front of ME:

    >"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    >news:UOXFe.5308$0C.1753@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    >> "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
    >> news:WvXFe.56$Bf.1267@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
    >>> >> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
    >>> >>
    >>> >> Well that certainly seems odd.
    >>> >
    >>> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
    >>> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
    >>> > strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
    >>>
    >>> You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan -
    >> is just what
    >>> a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.
    >>
    >> "Milling around" ... the pathetic Good heroes who are dogging him and
    >> tearing them to shreds? Wreaking havoc on innocents to create a distraction?
    >
    >Or, while we're playing scenerios... Killing the human (who just so happens to serve
    >the Pit Fiend), Eating that which must not be eaten, Flying or running away, Stealing
    >that Pretty Object, you know, doing something totally not what the Pit Fiend would
    >actually want it to do. Yeah, I can see how the Pit Fiend would want to introduce
    >unknowns into "precarious situation #456".
    >
    >Makes sense to me that if you create it/animate it - you should have some control
    >over it. Especially for something as powerful as a Pit Fiend.

    I would think that the very nature of the Pit Fiend would be conducive
    to, at the very least, non-hostility from intelligent undead it just
    created.

    He may not have direct control it, but he can be reasonably confident
    of it having a sympathetic (such as it is for evil) reaction towards
    him.

    --
    Address no longer works.
    try removing all numbers from
    gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

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  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Chipacabra" <chipb@efn.org> wrote in message
    news:Xns96A0CA4A6B02Bchipbefnorg@216.196.97.131...
    > "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:WvXFe.56$Bf.1267@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:
    > > You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan
    > > - is just what a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.
    >
    > Create undead doesn't typically make mindless creatures. It creates
    ghouls,
    > ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
    > the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
    > pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.

    What's this? An intelligent contribution? Amazing!

    -Michael
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Who says you need to control it? Create your ghoul, and
    drop it off in some Prime Material town. Why? Just to
    be mean. Just because devils are Lawful doesn't mean
    they won't enjoy a spot of pointless cruelty now and
    then.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    > ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
    > the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
    > pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.

    You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply because
    the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to
    me. Read on...

    What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two ghouls might
    decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open) than the human in the Full
    Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

    Hell if I was DM and a player/NPC summoned undead and couldn't control them, I sure
    as hell would play the ghoul/ghast/whatever on its merits and it would do what IT
    wanted to do. Either the pit fiend controls it, or it doesn't.

    I reckon it should.


    Tim
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
    news:uEZFe.68$Bf.1699@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
    > > ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so
    from
    > > the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
    > > pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
    >
    > You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply
    because
    > the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to
    'freewilled' to
    > me. Read on...

    Your response was bereft of human intelligence.

    > What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two
    ghouls might
    > decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open) than the human in
    the Full
    > Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

    <raises hand> Have you considered that the Pit Fiend's comments on the
    morsels available in the local environment might include "and if you bother
    Fred here, or otherwise fail to make your first meal *them*, I will destroy
    you"?
    This might come as a shock, but one does not need *magic* to influence
    the actions of free willed creatures.
    Or did you fail to notice how there are no nuclear weapons in Cuba
    today?

    <shakes head sadly>

    -Michael
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
    news:bVZFe.70$Bf.1732@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
    > The undead thing might be equally scared of 'whatever it is' that the Pit
    Fiend is
    > facing.

    In which case, you have the thing the ghoul is afraid of (and cannot
    hurt), and the thing the ghoul *hates* and is afraid of. Easy decision.

    > It might be an Arch Angel of some sort, probably even more scarey to the
    > Ghoul that Ol' Fiery. No?

    Again, you have this miraculous gift of failing to exercise your mind.
    Why, pray tell, would a Fiend waste his time - or his breath - creating
    *ghouls* to help in a fight against ANGELS?

    It is a very bad sign when your objections revolve around stupidity and
    irrelevance.

    -Michael
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:uEZFe.68$Bf.1699@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

    >> ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so
    >> from the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a
    >> matter of pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
    >
    > You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat
    > simply because the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them?
    > Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to me. Read on...
    >
    > What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two
    > ghouls might decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open)
    > than the human in the Full Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

    If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
    Undead?
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    > Michael Scott Brown wrote:
    > > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
    > > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
    > > strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
    >
    > Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
    > it were demons doing it.

    Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action. The
    undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
    intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it had
    anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid, and I
    will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.

    -Michael
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    >> The undead thing might be equally scared of 'whatever it is' that the Pit
    > Fiend is
    >> facing.
    >
    > In which case, you have the thing the ghoul is afraid of (and cannot
    > hurt), and the thing the ghoul *hates* and is afraid of. Easy decision.

    They hate all life, right, are you saying a Pit Fiend is not alive? Or is there a
    section in the MM that I missed. Where does it say they hate angels, humans, Storm
    giants and hippogriffs more than Pit Fiends?


    >> It might be an Arch Angel of some sort, probably even more scarey to the
    >> Ghoul that Ol' Fiery. No?
    >
    > Again, you have this miraculous gift of failing to exercise your mind.
    > Why, pray tell, would a Fiend waste his time - or his breath - creating
    > *ghouls* to help in a fight against ANGELS?

    You are a marvel. You should be exhibitted as a class A moron in the Smithsonian.
    So your issue is *now* that the Pit Fiend is summoning a ghoul, not whether he can
    control it. Ok, let's scrap that scenerio just to make it easier for you.

    Generic Monster A (GMA) sits in his throne room reading the newspaper. There is a
    Generic Evil Mage (GEM) beside GMA. A party of Generic PC's rush into the room.
    Being outnumbered, GMA summons a generic ghoul and a generic ghast to do his bidding.
    GMA has no control over the ghoul and ghast.

    What stops the ghoul and ghast from attacking and ripping to shreds the GEM? The GEM
    is closer, afterall.


    > It is a very bad sign when your objections revolve around stupidity and
    > irrelevance.

    We agree at last. Try to follow the thread and grasp the simple concept, dear chap.


    Tim
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    >> You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply
    > because
    >> the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to
    > 'freewilled' to
    >> me. Read on...
    >
    > Your response was bereft of human intelligence.

    Really? I didn't think it was that difficult a concept. I look forward to you
    pointing out my failings and will read on, enthralled.


    >> What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two
    > ghouls might
    >> decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open) than the human in
    > the Full
    >> Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).
    >
    > <raises hand> Have you considered that the Pit Fiend's comments on the
    > morsels available in the local environment might include "and if you bother
    > Fred here, or otherwise fail to make your first meal *them*, I will destroy
    > you"?

    Have you considered that whatever is attacking the Pit Fiend may be every bit as
    scarey as the Pit Fiend. A couple of High Priests of Pelor, for example. What then?


    > This might come as a shock, but one does not need *magic* to influence
    > the actions of free willed creatures.

    No shock at all. But it does highlight the fact that the Pit Fiend would rather
    summon something he can _definitely_ control instead of something he has to coerce
    into his fold.

    IMC, he'll have control over it as he's the one who summoned/created it. In your
    campaign, you can do it your way - and declare the ghoul as a creature with freewill,
    but (as you've indicated) actually play it as just another flunky who would do
    exactly what the Pit Fiend says anyway. Great "freewill" you've given your NPC's,
    champ. Good game, Bob. <backs away slowly>


    Tim
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
    news:oH%Fe.280$Bf.2249@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
    > No shock at all. But it does highlight the fact that the Pit Fiend would
    rather
    > summon something he can _definitely_ control instead of something he has
    to coerce
    > into his fold.

    You just said that about a DEVIL.

    <shakes head sadly>

    -Michael
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    > If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
    > Undead?

    Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

    Tim
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:eI%Fe.282$Bf.2330@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

    >> If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting
    >> Control Undead?
    >
    > Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

    Wizard. Free Scribe Scroll feat. Any 'pet' wizard too weak to cast Control
    Undead or too unprepared to have it ready is ghoulchow. Why should the pit
    fiend care? He can just get a new one. They're like feeder mice.
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:21:43 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> carved upon a
    tablet of ether:

    > Have you considered that whatever is attacking the Pit Fiend may be every bit as
    > scarey as the Pit Fiend. A couple of High Priests of Pelor, for example. What then?

    Pit Fiends have Int26, Wis26. Are you seriously suggesting they'd
    bother creating ghouls and ghasts if faced with something as scary
    they are?

    A pit fiend's Create Undead ability is useful in all kinds of ways
    that don't require direct control of the resulting being - bargain
    with it, let it loose somewhere where it wants a bit of fear and
    panic, or create it for a minion to control.

    > IMC, he'll have control over it as he's the one who summoned/created it. In your
    > campaign, you can do it your way - and declare the ghoul as a creature with freewill,
    > but (as you've indicated) actually play it as just another flunky who would do
    > exactly what the Pit Fiend says anyway. Great "freewill" you've given your NPC's,
    > champ. Good game, Bob. <backs away slowly>

    Does this ruling apply to normal spellcasters as well?


    --
    Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
    "Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
    should be free."
  24. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
    news:kt7Ge.5608$0C.3464@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

    > "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
    >> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating
    >> > hell-spawned
    >> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
    >> > employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
    >> > first!
    >>
    >> Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
    >> it were demons doing it.
    >
    > Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action.
    > The
    > undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
    > intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it
    > had anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid,
    > and I will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.
    >
    > -Michael

    Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
    mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear. Any intimidation will have
    to be role-played; which should be interesting given various undead
    mindsets. And the standard pit fiend only has a +10 Diplomacy modifier;
    hostile and unfriendly undead like mohrgs and ghasts may not allow the pit
    fiend the time for a diplomacy check, and the fiend can't rally afford the
    -10 penalty to rush the check. Mummies would be a better bet for the fiend
    to sway to his side though. The devil could use overwhelming force to
    convince the undead to see things his way, but that is using intimidation
    more than diplomacy in game terms. And using coercive methods on chaotic
    psychopathic undead may backfire; they hate being forced to do anything. I
    suppose the best way would be to trick the undead into helping the devil
    but many of these undead monsters are hardly unwise and dumb.
  25. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:22:37 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> dared speak in
    front of ME:

    >> If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
    >> Undead?
    >
    >Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

    ..au
    Burke?
    --
    Address no longer works.
    try removing all numbers from
    gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

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  26. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    > <shakes head sadly>

    "IMC, he'll have control over it as he's the one who summoned/created it. In your
    campaign, you can do it your way - and declare the ghoul as a creature with freewill,
    but (as you've indicated) actually play it as just another flunky who would do
    exactly what the Pit Fiend says anyway. Great "freewill" you've given your NPC's,
    champ. Good game, Bob. <backs away slowly>"


    <shakes head sadly>

    Enjoy your game, bob.


    Tim
  27. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
    speak in front of ME:

    >Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
    >news:aniie1dc664blbffgjr4lnno3ikglbaovq@4ax.com:
    >> In what way are such undead even the remotest threat to a Pit Fiend?
    >> It isn't creating Liches...ghouls and ghasts.
    >
    >Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume, minions-

    That would be anything he doesn't have immediate control over. Since
    I doubt the Fiend is going to restrict himself to working solely with
    Dominated servants, the issues you mention next will always be
    prevalent to some degree.


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  28. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:48:32 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> scribed into
    the ether:

    >"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
    >news:kt7Ge.5608$0C.3464@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
    >
    >> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    >> news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >>> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
    >>> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating
    >>> > hell-spawned
    >>> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
    >>> > employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
    >>> > first!
    >>>
    >>> Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
    >>> it were demons doing it.
    >>
    >> Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action.
    >> The
    >> undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
    >> intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it
    >> had anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid,
    >> and I will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.
    >>
    >> -Michael
    >
    >Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
    >mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear.

    Effects in this case refering to MAGICAL EFFECTS. Please grow some
    intelligence, because the ghasts are clearly outstripping you.

    Are undead immune to fear? I don't know, why don't we ask those ghouls who
    are fleeing at top speed from the guy holding up his holy symbol.

    Paladins have supernatural divine protection from fear. They can still be
    afraid.

    >hostile and unfriendly undead like mohrgs and ghasts may not allow the pit
    >fiend the time for a diplomacy check, and the fiend can't rally afford the
    >-10 penalty to rush the check.

    Hostile and unfriendly towards the thing they recognize as food...the
    adventurers. Pit Fiends are not food, and are *clearly* able to whoop some
    ass, something which while in the meta-game is certainly true (low level
    adventurers would not be facing a pit fiend), it is not knowledge that an
    undead is ever going to possess.

    Hmm, fireball at will vs 13 hp...that's a winner for the ghouls.
  29. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
    news:Xns96A1D3AEE167F619void@199.45.49.11...
    > "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
    > > undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
    > > intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it
    > > had anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid,
    > > and I will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.
    >
    > Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
    > mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear.

    What's this? JOSEPH HAS STARTED TO READ THE RULES?
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice per day.
    Next thing, you'll be pointing out that the Power Word and mass hold
    monster effects don't work on undead, either.
    At least we always have 20d6 of fireball damage per round, at will ...

    -Michael
  30. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Chipacabra wrote:
    > Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
    > news:a4gje1hgqaphcbgir4drriegaddlk3njq9@4ax.com:
    >
    > > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:37:15 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
    > > upon a tablet of ether:
    > >
    > >> ... Really? I'm using the SRD primarily these days, and the Abilities
    > >> and Conditions file doesn't mention anything about the time to use a
    > >> spell- like ability, suggesting to me that it's the same as the
    > >> spell. I'll do a file search and see if I've missed something.
    > >
    > > The DMG doesn't mention time, the MM does.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Can't find mention of it anywhere in the SRD, neither in A&C or in the
    > Monsters intro. Hmmm.

    It's in the magic overview section. Spell like abilites are standard
    actions, but are activated only mentally.
  31. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
    news:cktje1hsft2hm0t4mh19sbufd9ij93si6m@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:48:32 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> scribed into
    > >Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
    > >mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear.
    >
    > Effects in this case refering to MAGICAL EFFECTS. Please grow some
    > intelligence, because the ghasts are clearly outstripping you.

    Actually, the PhB supports his argument, for all that it produces
    potentially nonsensical results. Paladins are immune to Intimidate,
    according to the Intimidate skill description. Undead type includes
    immunity to all mind-affecting effects, including charms, compulsion, morale
    .... and it is reasonable to conclude that undead are properly described as
    just as fearless as Paladins, as a result. This is not to say that they
    can't do the math as to their continued welfare and perhaps worry a bit
    about bad outcomes, but trying to "spook" the spooky seems to be off the
    table - take a page from Tim Burton's halloween animation, or the Adams
    family - it generally doesn't even occur to the assorted ghouls and the
    ghastlies that they might be scary to *each other*. Of course, there are
    other fantasy traditions where heroes have quite clearly intimidated undead
    monsters (many a vampire has wimped out when faced with the stake), and Evil
    Overlords do love to overlord over their evil minions... so it could be
    argued that there needs to be some refinement of this rule (such as undead
    are "hard" to intimidate, and cannot be cowed in combat through that skill).

    > Are undead immune to fear? I don't know, why don't we ask those ghouls who
    > are fleeing at top speed from the guy holding up his holy symbol.

    There's no reason to conclude that *fear* is the motivator for this;
    there are other reasons to move away from an obnoxious priest (distaste,
    discomfort, repulsion) - people will leave a cloud of tear gas, but they
    certainly wouldn't claim to be frightened of the stuff. They just hate being
    in it. And Rebuked undead are well described as "awed" as opposed to
    afraid.

    -Michael
  32. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
    upon a tablet of ether:

    > Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume, minions-
    > allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful forces like
    > high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other devils is a grave
    > risk. One screw-up that the devil does not anticipate (which he will have
    > a hard time doing given their irrational chaotic minds) could lead to
    > disaster.

    Chaotic does not mean irrational.

    > Of course, creating masses of chaotic intelligent free-willed
    > undead can lead to disaster for the pit fiend outside of battle. They
    > could sell-out the devil to another fiend, cause too much havoc that
    > disrupts life in the Hells or threatens the long-term interests of the
    > Lords of Baator, even overwhelm the fiend in numbers when he not
    > expecting trouble.

    Come off it. Have a look at the Pit Fiend writeup.

    > Even if the fiend survives he is going to lose respect
    > from the devilish hierarchy for his foolish use of undead as a crutch.

    Just as Pit Fiends who use their innate ability to throw Fireballs are
    looked down on for using a crutch. Only those who bore their foes to
    death are the Real Deal. Eschew all crutches! Throw away your
    spell-like abilities, your natural attacks, and your immunities, and
    be free!

    > Pit fiends are going to use their Create Undead ability in very careful
    > moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct order
    > from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Blasphemy ability in very careful
    moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Fireball ability in very careful
    moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Greater Teleport ability in very
    careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    direct order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Invisibility ability in very careful
    moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Magic Circle Against Good ability in
    very careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking
    a direct order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Mass Hold Monster ability in very
    careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    direct order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Persistent Image ability in very
    careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    direct order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Power Word Stun ability in very
    careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    direct order from an arch devil and so on.

    Pit fiends are going to use their Unholy Aura ability in very careful
    moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    order from an arch devil and so on.

    All these abilities, including Create Undead, are 'at will' and cost
    the Pit Fiend _nothing_. Why in the heck shouldn't the fiend use them
    whenever it's useful to it? The abilities that need to be used
    carefully are Meteor Swarm (it's only useable once a day), and Wish
    (once a year).

    > They could use the undead to rampage on the
    > Material Plane, and some rogue devils will, but that is more the style of
    > demons such as Orcus. And if the fiend just raises undead and leaves them
    > to wander without any direction... unless he is under orders or there is
    > a good reason that profits the cause of Hell; the pit fiend will soon
    > come under "review" from his masters in my view.

    But he can give orders, and with his Diplomacy, and (especially)
    Intimidate bonuses, he's good every reason to expect they'll be
    obeyed, at least in the short term.

    Create undead isn't something a Pit Fiend will use al the time, but it
    has its uses, especially as a terror weapon, and there's no need for
    it to include the ability to control the undead for it to be useful to
    the fiend.


    --
    Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
    "Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
    should be free."
  33. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
    news:pjnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:

    > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
    > upon a tablet of ether:
    >
    >> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
    >> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
    >> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
    >> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
    >> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
    >> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
    >
    > Chaotic does not mean irrational.


    Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.


    >> Of course, creating masses of chaotic intelligent free-willed
    >> undead can lead to disaster for the pit fiend outside of battle. They
    >> could sell-out the devil to another fiend, cause too much havoc that
    >> disrupts life in the Hells or threatens the long-term interests of
    >> the Lords of Baator, even overwhelm the fiend in numbers when he not
    >> expecting trouble.
    >
    > Come off it. Have a look at the Pit Fiend writeup.

    A stretch I agree if we consider only the Pit Fiend and the undead. But
    they can weaken him with some unlucky rolls. And the Pit Fiend probably
    has many enemies that could take advantage of the situation if they were
    watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
    will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually. And the undead
    horde can always rampage through the devil's other minions and property
    wreaking his power base. Ghouls just love doing that.


    >> Even if the fiend survives he is going to lose respect
    >> from the devilish hierarchy for his foolish use of undead as a
    >> crutch.
    >
    > Just as Pit Fiends who use their innate ability to throw Fireballs are
    > looked down on for using a crutch. Only those who bore their foes to
    > death are the Real Deal. Eschew all crutches! Throw away your
    > spell-like abilities, your natural attacks, and your immunities, and
    > be free!
    >
    >> Pit fiends are going to use their Create Undead ability in very
    >> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    >> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Blasphemy ability in very careful
    > moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    > order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Fireball ability in very careful
    > moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    > order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Greater Teleport ability in very
    > careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    > direct order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Invisibility ability in very careful
    > moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    > order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Magic Circle Against Good ability in
    > very careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking
    > a direct order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Mass Hold Monster ability in very
    > careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    > direct order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Persistent Image ability in very
    > careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    > direct order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Power Word Stun ability in very
    > careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
    > direct order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > Pit fiends are going to use their Unholy Aura ability in very careful
    > moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
    > order from an arch devil and so on.
    >
    > All these abilities, including Create Undead, are 'at will' and cost
    > the Pit Fiend _nothing_. Why in the heck shouldn't the fiend use them
    > whenever it's useful to it? The abilities that need to be used
    > carefully are Meteor Swarm (it's only useable once a day), and Wish
    > (once a year).

    Because these spell-like abilities are not creating intelligent free-
    willed undead. The devil is in complete control of these immediate
    effects.

    >> They could use the undead to rampage on the
    >> Material Plane, and some rogue devils will, but that is more the
    >> style of demons such as Orcus. And if the fiend just raises undead
    >> and leaves them to wander without any direction... unless he is under
    >> orders or there is a good reason that profits the cause of Hell; the
    >> pit fiend will soon come under "review" from his masters in my view.
    >
    > But he can give orders, and with his Diplomacy, and (especially)
    > Intimidate bonuses, he's good every reason to expect they'll be
    > obeyed, at least in the short term.
    >
    > Create undead isn't something a Pit Fiend will use al the time, but it
    > has its uses, especially as a terror weapon, and there's no need for
    > it to include the ability to control the undead for it to be useful to
    > the fiend.

    I don't want the pit fiend to have the ability to control undead. And yes
    I believe pit fiends will use Create Undead in moderation. They have
    earned the right to have that power. I just think the devils generally
    speaking have not cracked the demonic mindset yet (assuming things like
    the Blood War). I think chaotic undead like ghouls come close to some
    demonic mindsets. Therefore, I'm just pointing out some problems the pit
    fiends may encounter in their use of create undead. I believe pit fiends
    are well aware of these potential pitfalls.
  34. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
    speak in front of ME:

    >Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
    >news:pjnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
    >
    >> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
    >> upon a tablet of ether:
    >>
    >>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
    >>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
    >>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
    >>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
    >>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
    >>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
    >>
    >> Chaotic does not mean irrational.
    >
    >Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.

    Eh, no. They might qualify as insane by human standards, but then so
    would the Pit Fiend.

    >watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
    >will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually.

    They've got other considerations, like eating.

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  35. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
    news:grhje1d88fnoatn36td78jape18b6l8bs2@4ax.com:

    > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
    > speak in front of ME:
    >
    >>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
    >>news:pjnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
    >>
    >>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
    >>> upon a tablet of ether:
    >>>
    >>>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
    >>>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
    >>>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
    >>>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
    >>>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
    >>>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
    >>>
    >>> Chaotic does not mean irrational.
    >>
    >>Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.
    >
    > Eh, no. They might qualify as insane by human standards, but then so
    > would the Pit Fiend.

    The impression I get from D&D game texts and even D&D novels is that
    undead like ghouls and mohrgs are always filled with homicidal rage. They
    may be able to behave intelligently, but the fundamental motivation of
    their behavior is very irrational.

    >>watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
    >>will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually.
    >
    > They've got other considerations, like eating.
    >

    That is more resource problems for the pit fiend then. If he keeps them
    in bondage, they will rebel as soon as they get the chance most likely.
    And if they roam around places like Hell eating anything they want, well,
    that is going to cause trouble. What a headache for any devil to cope
    with! Hopefully, the pit fiend has some good reasons for going to the
    trouble of all this. I do believe that strongholds of Hell may have some
    mummies as guardians; mummies are good at defense.
  36. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:21:56 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
    speak in front of ME:

    >Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
    >news:grhje1d88fnoatn36td78jape18b6l8bs2@4ax.com:
    >
    >> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
    >> speak in front of ME:
    >>
    >>>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
    >>>news:pjnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
    >>>
    >>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
    >>>> upon a tablet of ether:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
    >>>>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
    >>>>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
    >>>>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
    >>>>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
    >>>>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
    >>>>
    >>>> Chaotic does not mean irrational.
    >>>
    >>>Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.
    >>
    >> Eh, no. They might qualify as insane by human standards, but then so
    >> would the Pit Fiend.
    >
    >The impression I get from D&D game texts and even D&D novels is that
    >undead like ghouls and mohrgs are always filled with homicidal rage.

    And Pit Fiends aren't?

    >>>watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
    >>>will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually.
    >>
    >> They've got other considerations, like eating.
    >
    >That is more resource problems for the pit fiend then. If he keeps them
    >in bondage, they will rebel as soon as they get the chance most likely.
    >And if they roam around places like Hell eating anything they want,

    There's nothing for them to eat in Hell, except maybe the rare, random
    adventurer who finds his way in - and is likely far too tough to be a
    meal for them. So Mr Fiend isn't going to be creating them in hell
    and expecting them to be around long...

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  37. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
    upon a tablet of ether:

    > ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
    > characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their tools
    > correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement of a fairly
    > fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If you've got Pit Fiends
    > making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight superheros and angels, then
    > someone's been leaking stupid gas into Hell.

    The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are standard
    actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends can create
    their minons rather faster than mere mortals.


    --
    Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
    "Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
    should be free."
  38. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
    news:2boie199agpag0gnrotcvcat4qcp7bkma0@4ax.com:

    > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
    > upon a tablet of ether:
    >
    >> ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
    >> characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their
    >> tools correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement
    >> of a fairly fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If
    >> you've got Pit Fiends making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight
    >> superheros and angels, then someone's been leaking stupid gas into
    >> Hell.
    >
    > The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are standard
    > actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends can create
    > their minons rather faster than mere mortals.
    >
    >

    .... Really? I'm using the SRD primarily these days, and the Abilities and
    Conditions file doesn't mention anything about the time to use a spell-
    like ability, suggesting to me that it's the same as the spell. I'll do a
    file search and see if I've missed something.
  39. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
    news:2boie199agpag0gnrotcvcat4qcp7bkma0@4ax.com...
    > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
    > upon a tablet of ether:
    >
    > > ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
    > > characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their tools
    > > correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement of a
    fairly
    > > fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If you've got Pit
    Fiends
    > > making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight superheros and angels, then
    > > someone's been leaking stupid gas into Hell.
    >
    > The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are standard
    > actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends can create
    > their minons rather faster than mere mortals.

    No. The PhB says that spell like abilities take 1 standard action unless
    the *spell* or ability description suggests otherwise. If you have feather
    fall as a spell like ability, that ability is a swift action. Create Undead
    as a spell like ability takes an hour. It's not a combat spell, it never
    has been, and believe you me, a fiend pulling some undead together is
    *damnned* capable of ensuring that they understand their status as dog food
    in the Hellish hierarchy when they incarnate.

    -Michael
  40. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
    news:eFmGe.10001$dU3.2364@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

    >> The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are
    >> standard actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends
    >> can create their minons rather faster than mere mortals.
    >
    > No. The PhB says that spell like abilities take 1 standard action
    > unless
    > the *spell* or ability description suggests otherwise. If you have
    > feather fall as a spell like ability, that ability is a swift action.
    > Create Undead as a spell like ability takes an hour.

    Ah! So I wasn't crazy after all. That's good to know.
  41. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1122566962.873084.203640@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

    > I'm not entirely sure where it is, but all outsiders are made entirely
    > of soul, they are basically transformed dead spirits, thus you cannot
    > have undead outsiders... technically speaking the Pit Fiend has no
    > brains to eat

    How exactly are you coming up with this "Pit Fiend has no brains to eat"
    theory?

    --
    ^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishment the scroll,
    I am the Master of my fate:
    I am the Captain of my soul.

    from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
  42. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
    news:eFmGe.10001$dU3.2364@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

    > "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
    > news:2boie199agpag0gnrotcvcat4qcp7bkma0@4ax.com...
    >> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
    >> upon a tablet of ether:
    >>
    >> > ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
    >> > characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their
    >> > tools correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement
    >> > of a
    > fairly
    >> > fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If you've got
    >> > Pit
    > Fiends
    >> > making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight superheros and angels,
    >> > then someone's been leaking stupid gas into Hell.
    >>
    >> The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are
    >> standard actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends
    >> can create their minons rather faster than mere mortals.
    >
    > No. The PhB says that spell like abilities take 1 standard action
    > unless
    > the *spell* or ability description suggests otherwise. If you have
    > feather fall as a spell like ability, that ability is a swift action.
    > Create Undead as a spell like ability takes an hour. It's not a
    > combat spell, it never has been, and believe you me, a fiend pulling
    > some undead together is *damnned* capable of ensuring that they
    > understand their status as dog food in the Hellish hierarchy when they
    > incarnate.
    >
    > -Michael

    Well, I got it mixed around then. It is quite reasonable to rule pit
    fiends need an hour to Create Undead. However, this leads me to the
    rather odd realization that the dead body is listed under the heading of
    a material component. But since the spell has Target: One corpse, I think
    that overrides the material component issue, hence a dead body is needed.
  43. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Tim wrote:

    >>>>For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
    >>>
    >>>Well that certainly seems odd.
    >>
    >> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
    >>malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
    >>strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
    >
    >
    > You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan - is just what
    > a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.

    Your sarcasm suggests that you've never been to the DMV.

    - Ron ^*^
  44. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Tim wrote:

    >>ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
    >>the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
    >>pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
    >
    >
    > You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply because
    > the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to
    > me. Read on...

    Maybe they just create them to torture the dead spirits of their fallen
    enemies?

    - Ron ^*^
  45. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    > Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to

    <snip>

    Don't let facts get in the way of MSB's rant. He likes the sound of his own typing,
    and will dig himself deeper and deeper, blazing away with his drivel. MSB is 2005's
    version of Terry Austin, circa 1996. Now that I understand that, I can treat his
    views with all the respect they are due.

    "Hang on just one minute, Lord Vhaak'katsuu! My undead minions are eating the staff -
    I've just got to convince them again to toe the line. Be right back..."

    Tim
  46. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:09:00 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> scribed into the
    ether:

    >> Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
    >
    ><snip>
    >
    >Don't let facts get in the way of MSB's rant.

    They aren't facts, so no, they won't get in MSB's or anyone else's way.
  47. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:53:47 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
    upon a tablet of ether:

    > The problem is you really can't
    > accurately predict in any range of comfort what these crazy psychopathic
    > undead like ghouls will do.

    Wherein is it written that they are crazy?

    > In a serious battle their paralyze ability just might affect the
    > pit fiend if the devil is unlucky in his saves so to speak.

    How? The ghoul cannot defeat the fiend's DR. A ghast can, but it's not
    going to do it much good - it takes a critical, and it can't then coup
    the fiend because it has nothing that can do real damage to it.

    > Such "minions" could be a disaster in a life or death struggle against serious
    > foes.

    They aren't for such uses, being as they're too weak anyway.

    > Worse, the ghouls are smart and can be viewed as insanely
    > vindictive against everything... especially their creator. However, I
    > agree that pit fiends long existence and experience plus their superhuman
    > intelligence and wisdom give them the best shot of any lawful creature to
    > use chaotic free-willed undead for their benefit. Truly wise devils,
    > however, knowing the nature of chaos even if they can't predict it to a
    > devil's comfort zone, will create chaotic undead as experience has taught
    > them... wisely and with extreme caution.

    They have no need for extreme caution, just wisdom.


    --
    Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
    "Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
    should be free."
  48. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
    news:gmtie1laibet4smb3f3ab42v6hv62cjmah@4ax.com:

    > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:53:47 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
    > upon a tablet of ether:
    >
    >> The problem is you really can't
    >> accurately predict in any range of comfort what these crazy
    >> psychopathic undead like ghouls will do.
    >
    > Wherein is it written that they are crazy?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_illness

    page 189 MM 3.5 (Mohrgs) are tortured by an all-consuming hatred of
    living things, they long to live again.
    page 118. MM 3.5 (Ghouls) Mentions that they may come from cannibals but
    that is not proven, these terrible creatures lurk ready to devour the
    living. The transformation from living to undeath has warped their minds
    making them cunning and feral.
    This is just my view though that the standard MM ghoul and mohrg
    qualifies as crazy to my satisfaction.

    >> In a serious battle their paralyze ability just might affect the
    >> pit fiend if the devil is unlucky in his saves so to speak.
    >
    > How? The ghoul cannot defeat the fiend's DR. A ghast can, but it's not
    > going to do it much good - it takes a critical, and it can't then coup
    > the fiend because it has nothing that can do real damage to it.

    Good point, as I don't play the game anymore what do you think the phrase
    "those hit by a ghoul's bite or claw attack must save against
    paralysis..." Hit doesn't equal damage. Does this "hitting" override DR
    because it doesn't require damage to cause paralysis? The mohrg is a
    greater threat; it only has to touch a creature to cause paralysis (no
    damage needed MM 3.5 pages 189-190

    >> Such "minions" could be a disaster in a life or death struggle
    >> against serious foes.
    >
    > They aren't for such uses, being as they're too weak anyway.

    Mohrgs are CR 8, and don't understmate the value of combat distactions.
    Those undead take up space, can use up opponents' attacks of opportunity
    etc.

    >> Worse, the ghouls are smart and can be viewed as insanely
    >> vindictive against everything... especially their creator. However, I
    >> agree that pit fiends long existence and experience plus their
    >> superhuman intelligence and wisdom give them the best shot of any
    >> lawful creature to use chaotic free-willed undead for their benefit.
    >> Truly wise devils, however, knowing the nature of chaos even if they
    >> can't predict it to a devil's comfort zone, will create chaotic
    >> undead as experience has taught them... wisely and with extreme
    >> caution.
    >
    > They have no need for extreme caution, just wisdom.

    Much wisdom and at least some caution is a good way to put it.
  49. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
    news:Xns96A1D9C79A5CA619void@199.45.49.11...
    > living. The transformation from living to undeath has warped their minds
    > making them cunning and feral.
    > This is just my view though that the standard MM ghoul and mohrg
    > qualifies as crazy to my satisfaction.

    And we have established in other discussions that "your satisfaction"
    has no resemblance whatsoever to the reality in which we find ourselves.

    > Good point, as I don't play the game anymore what do you think the phrase
    > "those hit by a ghoul's bite or claw attack must save against
    > paralysis..." Hit doesn't equal damage.

    The rules have been clarified since they were first penned.

    -Michael
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