Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Outsiders(evil) and The Undead

Last response: in Video Games
Share
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 7:36:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in intensity
to that of an
outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.


Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
outsiders who are merely evil]
have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so forth.
So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class feature
of evil clerics,
yet I can't find any statement that they do.


Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty pointless
without it.
It looks like designer intent. But is it?

More about : outsiders evil undead

Anonymous
July 27, 2005 1:39:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
> Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in intensity
> to that of an
> outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
>
>
> Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
> outsiders who are merely evil]
> have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so forth.
> So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class feature
> of evil clerics,
> yet I can't find any statement that they do.
>
>
> Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
> It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty pointless
> without it.
> It looks like designer intent. But is it?

IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 8:29:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122482357.081220.309790@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
> > > Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in
> intensity
> > > to that of an
> > > outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
> > >
> > >
> > > Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
> > > outsiders who are merely evil]
> > > have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so
> forth.
> > > So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class
> feature
> > > of evil clerics,
> > > yet I can't find any statement that they do.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
> > > It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty
> pointless
> > > without it.
> > > It looks like designer intent. But is it?
> >
> > IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
> > created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.
>
> For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.

Well that certainly seems odd. I looked up the only one i can remember
that gets create undead offhand - the pit fiend. I don't see that it
has any other way to controll the undead. This seems even odder for an
LE type to go about creating undead that he can't control. I'd say
give him an additional spell like ability of control or command undead.


Although I found the ability quite useful as a DM, I had my evil Lich
call one of these guys and start using the ability to create an army of
undead. Since it doesn't use the very expensive material component...

- Justisaur
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 11:39:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122482357.081220.309790@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> pjmcgurk@gate.net wrote:
> > Evil clecrics, who can command undead, have an Evil aura equal in
intensity
> > to that of an
> > outsider(evil) with HD equal to the clerics Level.
> >
> >
> > Many Outsiders(evil) [that means outsiders with the evil subtype, not
> > outsiders who are merely evil]
> > have abilities that allow them to animate dead, create undead and so
forth.
> > So it seems that they should also have control undead , as the class
feature
> > of evil clerics,
> > yet I can't find any statement that they do.
> >
> >
> > Is there a statement somewhere in the rules that they have this feature?
> > It seems appropriate, and the create undead ability seems pretty
pointless
> > without it.
> > It looks like designer intent. But is it?
>
> IIRC the spells allow you to control a certain number of the undead so
> created, so you don't really need the seperate ability.

For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 6:26:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122506978.975094.96350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
>
> Well that certainly seems odd.

Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!

-Michael
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 1:00:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122506978.975094.96350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
> >
> > Well that certainly seems odd.
>
> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
> malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
> strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
>

Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
it were demons doing it.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 1:09:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tim wrote:
> >> The undead thing might be equally scared of 'whatever it is' that the Pit
> > Fiend is
> >> facing.
> >
> > In which case, you have the thing the ghoul is afraid of (and cannot
> > hurt), and the thing the ghoul *hates* and is afraid of. Easy decision.
>
> They hate all life, right, are you saying a Pit Fiend is not alive? Or is there a
> section in the MM that I missed. Where does it say they hate angels, humans, Storm
> giants and hippogriffs more than Pit Fiends?
>

I'm not entirely sure where it is, but all outsiders are made entirely
of soul, they are basically transformed dead spirits, thus you cannot
have undead outsiders... technically speaking the Pit Fiend has no
brains to eat (although strangely would be killed by a mind flayers
extract brain ability).

The rules are unfortunately inconsistant in this instance.

In any case creating a bunch of (mostly?) Chaotic Evil uncontrolled
undead seem entirely out of character for a LE creature, that according
to cannon is mostly fighting Chaotic Evil creatures over what ammounts
to a dissagreement over law vs. chaos.

I'm sure it was an oversite, there's plenty of those in the MM. I
imagine the person revising, or creating the Pit Fiend assumed as I did
that Create Undead had the built in ability to control the ones so
created (or it was changed at some point and left hand never talked to
right).

- Justisaur
July 28, 2005 4:19:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>>I figure you must be the resident troll, right?
>
> You betray the shallowness of your lurking. Ron is the resident toll;
> MSB is the resident curmudgeon.

Curmudgeon, nice word, and definitely applicable to his post. Thanks for the head's
up!

MSB - you're a curmudgeon of the highest order, then.

cheers,

Tim
July 28, 2005 4:36:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
>>
>> Well that certainly seems odd.
>
> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
> malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
> strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!

You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan - is just what
a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.

I like stories.


Tim
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 4:36:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:WvXFe.56$Bf.1267@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

>>> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
>>>
>>> Well that certainly seems odd.
>>
>> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
>> malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
>> employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
>> first!
>
> You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan
> - is just what a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.
>

Create undead doesn't typically make mindless creatures. It creates ghouls,
ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
July 28, 2005 4:36:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:54:12 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> dared speak in
front of ME:

>"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:UOXFe.5308$0C.1753@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
>> news:WvXFe.56$Bf.1267@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
>>> >> > For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
>>> >>
>>> >> Well that certainly seems odd.
>>> >
>>> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
>>> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
>>> > strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
>>>
>>> You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan -
>> is just what
>>> a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.
>>
>> "Milling around" ... the pathetic Good heroes who are dogging him and
>> tearing them to shreds? Wreaking havoc on innocents to create a distraction?
>
>Or, while we're playing scenerios... Killing the human (who just so happens to serve
>the Pit Fiend), Eating that which must not be eaten, Flying or running away, Stealing
>that Pretty Object, you know, doing something totally not what the Pit Fiend would
>actually want it to do. Yeah, I can see how the Pit Fiend would want to introduce
>unknowns into "precarious situation #456".
>
>Makes sense to me that if you create it/animate it - you should have some control
>over it. Especially for something as powerful as a Pit Fiend.

I would think that the very nature of the Pit Fiend would be conducive
to, at the very least, non-hostility from intelligent undead it just
created.

He may not have direct control it, but he can be reasonably confident
of it having a sympathetic (such as it is for evil) reaction towards
him.

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 4:36:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Chipacabra" <chipb@efn.org> wrote in message
news:Xns96A0CA4A6B02Bchipbefnorg@216.196.97.131...
> "Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:WvXFe.56$Bf.1267@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:
> > You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan
> > - is just what a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.
>
> Create undead doesn't typically make mindless creatures. It creates
ghouls,
> ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
> the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
> pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.

What's this? An intelligent contribution? Amazing!

-Michael
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 4:50:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Who says you need to control it? Create your ghoul, and
drop it off in some Prime Material town. Why? Just to
be mean. Just because devils are Lawful doesn't mean
they won't enjoy a spot of pointless cruelty now and
then.
July 28, 2005 6:59:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
> the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
> pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.

You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply because
the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to
me. Read on...

What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two ghouls might
decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open) than the human in the Full
Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

Hell if I was DM and a player/NPC summoned undead and couldn't control them, I sure
as hell would play the ghoul/ghast/whatever on its merits and it would do what IT
wanted to do. Either the pit fiend controls it, or it doesn't.

I reckon it should.


Tim
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 6:59:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
news:uEZFe.68$Bf.1699@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> > ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so
from
> > the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
> > pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
>
> You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply
because
> the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to
'freewilled' to
> me. Read on...

Your response was bereft of human intelligence.

> What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two
ghouls might
> decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open) than the human in
the Full
> Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

<raises hand> Have you considered that the Pit Fiend's comments on the
morsels available in the local environment might include "and if you bother
Fred here, or otherwise fail to make your first meal *them*, I will destroy
you"?
This might come as a shock, but one does not need *magic* to influence
the actions of free willed creatures.
Or did you fail to notice how there are no nuclear weapons in Cuba
today?

<shakes head sadly>

-Michael
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 6:59:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
news:bVZFe.70$Bf.1732@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> The undead thing might be equally scared of 'whatever it is' that the Pit
Fiend is
> facing.

In which case, you have the thing the ghoul is afraid of (and cannot
hurt), and the thing the ghoul *hates* and is afraid of. Easy decision.

> It might be an Arch Angel of some sort, probably even more scarey to the
> Ghoul that Ol' Fiery. No?

Again, you have this miraculous gift of failing to exercise your mind.
Why, pray tell, would a Fiend waste his time - or his breath - creating
*ghouls* to help in a fight against ANGELS?

It is a very bad sign when your objections revolve around stupidity and
irrelevance.

-Michael
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 6:59:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:uEZFe.68$Bf.1699@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

>> ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so
>> from the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a
>> matter of pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
>
> You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat
> simply because the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them?
> Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to me. Read on...
>
> What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two
> ghouls might decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open)
> than the human in the Full Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).

If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
Undead?
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 8:12:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
> > strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
>
> Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
> it were demons doing it.

Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action. The
undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it had
anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid, and I
will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.

-Michael
July 28, 2005 9:09:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>> The undead thing might be equally scared of 'whatever it is' that the Pit
> Fiend is
>> facing.
>
> In which case, you have the thing the ghoul is afraid of (and cannot
> hurt), and the thing the ghoul *hates* and is afraid of. Easy decision.

They hate all life, right, are you saying a Pit Fiend is not alive? Or is there a
section in the MM that I missed. Where does it say they hate angels, humans, Storm
giants and hippogriffs more than Pit Fiends?


>> It might be an Arch Angel of some sort, probably even more scarey to the
>> Ghoul that Ol' Fiery. No?
>
> Again, you have this miraculous gift of failing to exercise your mind.
> Why, pray tell, would a Fiend waste his time - or his breath - creating
> *ghouls* to help in a fight against ANGELS?

You are a marvel. You should be exhibitted as a class A moron in the Smithsonian.
So your issue is *now* that the Pit Fiend is summoning a ghoul, not whether he can
control it. Ok, let's scrap that scenerio just to make it easier for you.

Generic Monster A (GMA) sits in his throne room reading the newspaper. There is a
Generic Evil Mage (GEM) beside GMA. A party of Generic PC's rush into the room.
Being outnumbered, GMA summons a generic ghoul and a generic ghast to do his bidding.
GMA has no control over the ghoul and ghast.

What stops the ghoul and ghast from attacking and ripping to shreds the GEM? The GEM
is closer, afterall.


> It is a very bad sign when your objections revolve around stupidity and
> irrelevance.

We agree at last. Try to follow the thread and grasp the simple concept, dear chap.


Tim
July 28, 2005 9:21:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>> You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply
> because
>> the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to
> 'freewilled' to
>> me. Read on...
>
> Your response was bereft of human intelligence.

Really? I didn't think it was that difficult a concept. I look forward to you
pointing out my failings and will read on, enthralled.


>> What if the Pit Fiend's fat human 'pet' wizard is nearby - one or two
> ghouls might
>> decide that he would be more tasty (and easier to open) than the human in
> the Full
>> Plate armour (the Pit Fiend pointed out).
>
> <raises hand> Have you considered that the Pit Fiend's comments on the
> morsels available in the local environment might include "and if you bother
> Fred here, or otherwise fail to make your first meal *them*, I will destroy
> you"?

Have you considered that whatever is attacking the Pit Fiend may be every bit as
scarey as the Pit Fiend. A couple of High Priests of Pelor, for example. What then?


> This might come as a shock, but one does not need *magic* to influence
> the actions of free willed creatures.

No shock at all. But it does highlight the fact that the Pit Fiend would rather
summon something he can _definitely_ control instead of something he has to coerce
into his fold.

IMC, he'll have control over it as he's the one who summoned/created it. In your
campaign, you can do it your way - and declare the ghoul as a creature with freewill,
but (as you've indicated) actually play it as just another flunky who would do
exactly what the Pit Fiend says anyway. Great "freewill" you've given your NPC's,
champ. Good game, Bob. <backs away slowly>


Tim
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 9:21:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in message
news:o H%Fe.280$Bf.2249@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> No shock at all. But it does highlight the fact that the Pit Fiend would
rather
> summon something he can _definitely_ control instead of something he has
to coerce
> into his fold.

You just said that about a DEVIL.

<shakes head sadly>

-Michael
July 28, 2005 9:22:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
> Undead?

Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

Tim
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 9:22:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tim" <XX@nah.com> wrote in news:eI%Fe.282$Bf.2330@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au:

>> If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting
>> Control Undead?
>
> Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

Wizard. Free Scribe Scroll feat. Any 'pet' wizard too weak to cast Control
Undead or too unprepared to have it ready is ghoulchow. Why should the pit
fiend care? He can just get a new one. They're like feeder mice.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:31:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:21:43 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> carved upon a
tablet of ether:

> Have you considered that whatever is attacking the Pit Fiend may be every bit as
> scarey as the Pit Fiend. A couple of High Priests of Pelor, for example. What then?

Pit Fiends have Int26, Wis26. Are you seriously suggesting they'd
bother creating ghouls and ghasts if faced with something as scary
they are?

A pit fiend's Create Undead ability is useful in all kinds of ways
that don't require direct control of the resulting being - bargain
with it, let it loose somewhere where it wants a bit of fear and
panic, or create it for a minion to control.

> IMC, he'll have control over it as he's the one who summoned/created it. In your
> campaign, you can do it your way - and declare the ghoul as a creature with freewill,
> but (as you've indicated) actually play it as just another flunky who would do
> exactly what the Pit Fiend says anyway. Great "freewill" you've given your NPC's,
> champ. Good game, Bob. <backs away slowly>

Does this ruling apply to normal spellcasters as well?


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
July 29, 2005 4:48:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:kt7Ge.5608$0C.3464@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating
>> > hell-spawned
>> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
>> > employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
>> > first!
>>
>> Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
>> it were demons doing it.
>
> Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action.
> The
> undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
> intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it
> had anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid,
> and I will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.
>
> -Michael

Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear. Any intimidation will have
to be role-played; which should be interesting given various undead
mindsets. And the standard pit fiend only has a +10 Diplomacy modifier;
hostile and unfriendly undead like mohrgs and ghasts may not allow the pit
fiend the time for a diplomacy check, and the fiend can't rally afford the
-10 penalty to rush the check. Mummies would be a better bet for the fiend
to sway to his side though. The devil could use overwhelming force to
convince the undead to see things his way, but that is using intimidation
more than diplomacy in game terms. And using coercive methods on chaotic
psychopathic undead may backfire; they hate being forced to do anything. I
suppose the best way would be to trick the undead into helping the devil
but many of these undead monsters are hardly unwise and dumb.
July 29, 2005 5:46:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:22:37 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> dared speak in
front of ME:

>> If the Pit Fiend has a pet wizard, why isn't the pet wizard casting Control
>> Undead?
>
>Didn't study it that day. Try and think things through for yourself.

..au
Burke?
--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
July 29, 2005 5:51:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> <shakes head sadly>

"IMC, he'll have control over it as he's the one who summoned/created it. In your
campaign, you can do it your way - and declare the ghoul as a creature with freewill,
but (as you've indicated) actually play it as just another flunky who would do
exactly what the Pit Fiend says anyway. Great "freewill" you've given your NPC's,
champ. Good game, Bob. <backs away slowly>"


<shakes head sadly>

Enjoy your game, bob.


Tim
July 29, 2005 5:51:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
>news:aniie1dc664blbffgjr4lnno3ikglbaovq@4ax.com:
>> In what way are such undead even the remotest threat to a Pit Fiend?
>> It isn't creating Liches...ghouls and ghasts.
>
>Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume, minions-

That would be anything he doesn't have immediate control over. Since
I doubt the Fiend is going to restrict himself to working solely with
Dominated servants, the issues you mention next will always be
prevalent to some degree.


--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 1:34:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:48:32 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> scribed into
the ether:

>"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
>news:kt7Ge.5608$0C.3464@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1122566414.648554.144030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>>> > Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating
>>> > hell-spawned
>>> > malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to
>>> > employ strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends
>>> > first!
>>>
>>> Such is not in keeping with the diabolical mindset. I'd expect it if
>>> it were demons doing it.
>>
>> Bullshit. Diabolicals *love* the suggestion that produces action.
>> The
>> undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
>> intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it
>> had anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid,
>> and I will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.
>>
>> -Michael
>
>Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
>mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear.

Effects in this case refering to MAGICAL EFFECTS. Please grow some
intelligence, because the ghasts are clearly outstripping you.

Are undead immune to fear? I don't know, why don't we ask those ghouls who
are fleeing at top speed from the guy holding up his holy symbol.

Paladins have supernatural divine protection from fear. They can still be
afraid.

>hostile and unfriendly undead like mohrgs and ghasts may not allow the pit
>fiend the time for a diplomacy check, and the fiend can't rally afford the
>-10 penalty to rush the check.

Hostile and unfriendly towards the thing they recognize as food...the
adventurers. Pit Fiends are not food, and are *clearly* able to whoop some
ass, something which while in the meta-game is certainly true (low level
adventurers would not be facing a pit fiend), it is not knowledge that an
undead is ever going to possess.

Hmm, fireball at will vs 13 hp...that's a winner for the ghouls.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 1:43:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96A1D3AEE167F619void@199.45.49.11...
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
> > undead they create are simple to influence through diplomacy and
> > intimidation. Assuming that the fiend would use no tools for which it
> > had anything less that MAGICAL DOMINATION is the worst kind of stupid,
> > and I will ask you to refrain from engaging in it one moment longer.
>
> Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
> mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear.

What's this? JOSEPH HAS STARTED TO READ THE RULES?
Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice per day.
Next thing, you'll be pointing out that the Power Word and mass hold
monster effects don't work on undead, either.
At least we always have 20d6 of fireball damage per round, at will ...

-Michael
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 1:56:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Chipacabra wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
> news:a4gje1hgqaphcbgir4drriegaddlk3njq9@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:37:15 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
> > upon a tablet of ether:
> >
> >> ... Really? I'm using the SRD primarily these days, and the Abilities
> >> and Conditions file doesn't mention anything about the time to use a
> >> spell- like ability, suggesting to me that it's the same as the
> >> spell. I'll do a file search and see if I've missed something.
> >
> > The DMG doesn't mention time, the MM does.
> >
> >
>
> Can't find mention of it anywhere in the SRD, neither in A&C or in the
> Monsters intro. Hmmm.

It's in the magic overview section. Spell like abilites are standard
actions, but are activated only mentally.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:00:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:cktje1hsft2hm0t4mh19sbufd9ij93si6m@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:48:32 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> scribed into
> >Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
> >mind-affecting and morale effects such as fear.
>
> Effects in this case refering to MAGICAL EFFECTS. Please grow some
> intelligence, because the ghasts are clearly outstripping you.

Actually, the PhB supports his argument, for all that it produces
potentially nonsensical results. Paladins are immune to Intimidate,
according to the Intimidate skill description. Undead type includes
immunity to all mind-affecting effects, including charms, compulsion, morale
.... and it is reasonable to conclude that undead are properly described as
just as fearless as Paladins, as a result. This is not to say that they
can't do the math as to their continued welfare and perhaps worry a bit
about bad outcomes, but trying to "spook" the spooky seems to be off the
table - take a page from Tim Burton's halloween animation, or the Adams
family - it generally doesn't even occur to the assorted ghouls and the
ghastlies that they might be scary to *each other*. Of course, there are
other fantasy traditions where heroes have quite clearly intimidated undead
monsters (many a vampire has wimped out when faced with the stake), and Evil
Overlords do love to overlord over their evil minions... so it could be
argued that there needs to be some refinement of this rule (such as undead
are "hard" to intimidate, and cannot be cowed in combat through that skill).

> Are undead immune to fear? I don't know, why don't we ask those ghouls who
> are fleeing at top speed from the guy holding up his holy symbol.

There's no reason to conclude that *fear* is the motivator for this;
there are other reasons to move away from an obnoxious priest (distaste,
discomfort, repulsion) - people will leave a cloud of tear gas, but they
certainly wouldn't claim to be frightened of the stuff. They just hate being
in it. And Rebuked undead are well described as "awed" as opposed to
afraid.

-Michael
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:50:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume, minions-
> allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful forces like
> high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other devils is a grave
> risk. One screw-up that the devil does not anticipate (which he will have
> a hard time doing given their irrational chaotic minds) could lead to
> disaster.

Chaotic does not mean irrational.

> Of course, creating masses of chaotic intelligent free-willed
> undead can lead to disaster for the pit fiend outside of battle. They
> could sell-out the devil to another fiend, cause too much havoc that
> disrupts life in the Hells or threatens the long-term interests of the
> Lords of Baator, even overwhelm the fiend in numbers when he not
> expecting trouble.

Come off it. Have a look at the Pit Fiend writeup.

> Even if the fiend survives he is going to lose respect
> from the devilish hierarchy for his foolish use of undead as a crutch.

Just as Pit Fiends who use their innate ability to throw Fireballs are
looked down on for using a crutch. Only those who bore their foes to
death are the Real Deal. Eschew all crutches! Throw away your
spell-like abilities, your natural attacks, and your immunities, and
be free!

> Pit fiends are going to use their Create Undead ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct order
> from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Blasphemy ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Fireball ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Greater Teleport ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Invisibility ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Magic Circle Against Good ability in
very careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking
a direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Mass Hold Monster ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Persistent Image ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Power Word Stun ability in very
careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
direct order from an arch devil and so on.

Pit fiends are going to use their Unholy Aura ability in very careful
moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
order from an arch devil and so on.

All these abilities, including Create Undead, are 'at will' and cost
the Pit Fiend _nothing_. Why in the heck shouldn't the fiend use them
whenever it's useful to it? The abilities that need to be used
carefully are Meteor Swarm (it's only useable once a day), and Wish
(once a year).

> They could use the undead to rampage on the
> Material Plane, and some rogue devils will, but that is more the style of
> demons such as Orcus. And if the fiend just raises undead and leaves them
> to wander without any direction... unless he is under orders or there is
> a good reason that profits the cause of Hell; the pit fiend will soon
> come under "review" from his masters in my view.

But he can give orders, and with his Diplomacy, and (especially)
Intimidate bonuses, he's good every reason to expect they'll be
obeyed, at least in the short term.

Create undead isn't something a Pit Fiend will use al the time, but it
has its uses, especially as a terror weapon, and there's no need for
it to include the ability to control the undead for it to be useful to
the fiend.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
July 29, 2005 2:50:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
news:p jnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
>
> Chaotic does not mean irrational.


Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.


>> Of course, creating masses of chaotic intelligent free-willed
>> undead can lead to disaster for the pit fiend outside of battle. They
>> could sell-out the devil to another fiend, cause too much havoc that
>> disrupts life in the Hells or threatens the long-term interests of
>> the Lords of Baator, even overwhelm the fiend in numbers when he not
>> expecting trouble.
>
> Come off it. Have a look at the Pit Fiend writeup.

A stretch I agree if we consider only the Pit Fiend and the undead. But
they can weaken him with some unlucky rolls. And the Pit Fiend probably
has many enemies that could take advantage of the situation if they were
watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually. And the undead
horde can always rampage through the devil's other minions and property
wreaking his power base. Ghouls just love doing that.


>> Even if the fiend survives he is going to lose respect
>> from the devilish hierarchy for his foolish use of undead as a
>> crutch.
>
> Just as Pit Fiends who use their innate ability to throw Fireballs are
> looked down on for using a crutch. Only those who bore their foes to
> death are the Real Deal. Eschew all crutches! Throw away your
> spell-like abilities, your natural attacks, and your immunities, and
> be free!
>
>> Pit fiends are going to use their Create Undead ability in very
>> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
>> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Blasphemy ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Fireball ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Greater Teleport ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Invisibility ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Magic Circle Against Good ability in
> very careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking
> a direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Mass Hold Monster ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Persistent Image ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Power Word Stun ability in very
> careful moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a
> direct order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> Pit fiends are going to use their Unholy Aura ability in very careful
> moderation in situations that demand it... such as taking a direct
> order from an arch devil and so on.
>
> All these abilities, including Create Undead, are 'at will' and cost
> the Pit Fiend _nothing_. Why in the heck shouldn't the fiend use them
> whenever it's useful to it? The abilities that need to be used
> carefully are Meteor Swarm (it's only useable once a day), and Wish
> (once a year).

Because these spell-like abilities are not creating intelligent free-
willed undead. The devil is in complete control of these immediate
effects.

>> They could use the undead to rampage on the
>> Material Plane, and some rogue devils will, but that is more the
>> style of demons such as Orcus. And if the fiend just raises undead
>> and leaves them to wander without any direction... unless he is under
>> orders or there is a good reason that profits the cause of Hell; the
>> pit fiend will soon come under "review" from his masters in my view.
>
> But he can give orders, and with his Diplomacy, and (especially)
> Intimidate bonuses, he's good every reason to expect they'll be
> obeyed, at least in the short term.
>
> Create undead isn't something a Pit Fiend will use al the time, but it
> has its uses, especially as a terror weapon, and there's no need for
> it to include the ability to control the undead for it to be useful to
> the fiend.

I don't want the pit fiend to have the ability to control undead. And yes
I believe pit fiends will use Create Undead in moderation. They have
earned the right to have that power. I just think the devils generally
speaking have not cracked the demonic mindset yet (assuming things like
the Blood War). I think chaotic undead like ghouls come close to some
demonic mindsets. Therefore, I'm just pointing out some problems the pit
fiends may encounter in their use of create undead. I believe pit fiends
are well aware of these potential pitfalls.
July 29, 2005 2:50:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
>news:p jnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
>> upon a tablet of ether:
>>
>>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
>>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
>>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
>>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
>>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
>>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
>>
>> Chaotic does not mean irrational.
>
>Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.

Eh, no. They might qualify as insane by human standards, but then so
would the Pit Fiend.

>watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
>will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually.

They've got other considerations, like eating.

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
July 29, 2005 2:50:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
news:grhje1d88fnoatn36td78jape18b6l8bs2@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
> speak in front of ME:
>
>>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
>>news:p jnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
>>> upon a tablet of ether:
>>>
>>>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
>>>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
>>>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
>>>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
>>>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
>>>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
>>>
>>> Chaotic does not mean irrational.
>>
>>Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.
>
> Eh, no. They might qualify as insane by human standards, but then so
> would the Pit Fiend.

The impression I get from D&D game texts and even D&D novels is that
undead like ghouls and mohrgs are always filled with homicidal rage. They
may be able to behave intelligently, but the fundamental motivation of
their behavior is very irrational.

>>watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
>>will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually.
>
> They've got other considerations, like eating.
>

That is more resource problems for the pit fiend then. If he keeps them
in bondage, they will rebel as soon as they get the chance most likely.
And if they roam around places like Hell eating anything they want, well,
that is going to cause trouble. What a headache for any devil to cope
with! Hopefully, the pit fiend has some good reasons for going to the
trouble of all this. I do believe that strongholds of Hell may have some
mummies as guardians; mummies are good at defense.
July 29, 2005 2:50:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:21:56 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
>news:grhje1d88fnoatn36td78jape18b6l8bs2@4ax.com:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:13:10 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
>> speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
>>>news:p jnie1tjdmabne7ivsfd4a2ik6k94vbqf4@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:00:52 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
>>>> upon a tablet of ether:
>>>>
>>>>> Leading undependable, which I believe is reasonable to assume,
>>>>> minions- allies like ghouls and ghasts in battle against powerful
>>>>> forces like high-level adventures, demons, angels and even other
>>>>> devils is a grave risk. One screw-up that the devil does not
>>>>> anticipate (which he will have a hard time doing given their
>>>>> irrational chaotic minds) could lead to disaster.
>>>>
>>>> Chaotic does not mean irrational.
>>>
>>>Yes, but undead like ghouls and mohrgs are insanely irrational.
>>
>> Eh, no. They might qualify as insane by human standards, but then so
>> would the Pit Fiend.
>
>The impression I get from D&D game texts and even D&D novels is that
>undead like ghouls and mohrgs are always filled with homicidal rage.

And Pit Fiends aren't?

>>>watching at the right time. Worse, since ghouls are smart they probably
>>>will be in league with the devil's enemies eventually.
>>
>> They've got other considerations, like eating.
>
>That is more resource problems for the pit fiend then. If he keeps them
>in bondage, they will rebel as soon as they get the chance most likely.
>And if they roam around places like Hell eating anything they want,

There's nothing for them to eat in Hell, except maybe the rare, random
adventurer who finds his way in - and is likely far too tough to be a
meal for them. So Mr Fiend isn't going to be creating them in hell
and expecting them to be around long...

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:53:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
> characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their tools
> correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement of a fairly
> fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If you've got Pit Fiends
> making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight superheros and angels, then
> someone's been leaking stupid gas into Hell.

The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are standard
actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends can create
their minons rather faster than mere mortals.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:53:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
news:2boie199agpag0gnrotcvcat4qcp7bkma0@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
>> characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their
>> tools correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement
>> of a fairly fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If
>> you've got Pit Fiends making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight
>> superheros and angels, then someone's been leaking stupid gas into
>> Hell.
>
> The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are standard
> actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends can create
> their minons rather faster than mere mortals.
>
>

.... Really? I'm using the SRD primarily these days, and the Abilities and
Conditions file doesn't mention anything about the time to use a spell-
like ability, suggesting to me that it's the same as the spell. I'll do a
file search and see if I've missed something.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:53:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:2boie199agpag0gnrotcvcat4qcp7bkma0@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
> > characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their tools
> > correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement of a
fairly
> > fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If you've got Pit
Fiends
> > making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight superheros and angels, then
> > someone's been leaking stupid gas into Hell.
>
> The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are standard
> actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends can create
> their minons rather faster than mere mortals.

No. The PhB says that spell like abilities take 1 standard action unless
the *spell* or ability description suggests otherwise. If you have feather
fall as a spell like ability, that ability is a swift action. Create Undead
as a spell like ability takes an hour. It's not a combat spell, it never
has been, and believe you me, a fiend pulling some undead together is
*damnned* capable of ensuring that they understand their status as dog food
in the Hellish hierarchy when they incarnate.

-Michael
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:53:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:eFmGe.10001$dU3.2364@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

>> The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are
>> standard actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends
>> can create their minons rather faster than mere mortals.
>
> No. The PhB says that spell like abilities take 1 standard action
> unless
> the *spell* or ability description suggests otherwise. If you have
> feather fall as a spell like ability, that ability is a swift action.
> Create Undead as a spell like ability takes an hour.

Ah! So I wasn't crazy after all. That's good to know.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 3:15:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122566962.873084.203640@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> I'm not entirely sure where it is, but all outsiders are made entirely
> of soul, they are basically transformed dead spirits, thus you cannot
> have undead outsiders... technically speaking the Pit Fiend has no
> brains to eat

How exactly are you coming up with this "Pit Fiend has no brains to eat"
theory?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
July 29, 2005 3:33:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:eFmGe.10001$dU3.2364@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:2boie199agpag0gnrotcvcat4qcp7bkma0@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0500, Chipacabra <chipb@efn.org> carved
>> upon a tablet of ether:
>>
>> > ... Why? Ghouls and ghasts aren't even a speed bump for high-level
>> > characters. Pit fiends are intelligent, they're going to use their
>> > tools correctly. Hint: With a 1 hour casting time and a requirement
>> > of a
> fairly
>> > fresh corpse, Create Undead is NOT a combat spell. If you've got
>> > Pit
> Fiends
>> > making ghasts as combat lackeys to fight superheros and angels,
>> > then someone's been leaking stupid gas into Hell.
>>
>> The MM v3.5 description of spell-like abilities says they are
>> standard actions, unless noted otherwise. It would appear Pit Fiends
>> can create their minons rather faster than mere mortals.
>
> No. The PhB says that spell like abilities take 1 standard action
> unless
> the *spell* or ability description suggests otherwise. If you have
> feather fall as a spell like ability, that ability is a swift action.
> Create Undead as a spell like ability takes an hour. It's not a
> combat spell, it never has been, and believe you me, a fiend pulling
> some undead together is *damnned* capable of ensuring that they
> understand their status as dog food in the Hellish hierarchy when they
> incarnate.
>
> -Michael

Well, I got it mixed around then. It is quite reasonable to rule pit
fiends need an hour to Create Undead. However, this leads me to the
rather odd realization that the dead body is listed under the heading of
a material component. But since the spell has Target: One corpse, I think
that overrides the material component issue, hence a dead body is needed.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 3:54:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tim wrote:

>>>>For Animate Dead that is correct, but not for Create Undead.
>>>
>>>Well that certainly seems odd.
>>
>> Why? You don't see *any* possible utility in creating hell-spawned
>>malevolents whose hatred for life makes them remarkably easy to employ
>>strategically? Hint: they're not going to attack the fiends first!
>
>
> You're right, a mob of zombies - devoid of purpose, structure and plan - is just what
> a Lawful Evil being would want milling around.

Your sarcasm suggests that you've never been to the DMV.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 3:55:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tim wrote:

>>ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. These are all freewilled undead, and so from
>>the pit fiend's point of view, controlling them is merely a matter of
>>pointing out where the tasty brainmeat is.
>
>
> You think the ghoul/ghast whatever would rush to eat the brain-meat simply because
> the big fat thing with wings pointed it out to them? Doesn't seem to 'freewilled' to
> me. Read on...

Maybe they just create them to torture the dead spirits of their fallen
enemies?

- Ron ^*^
July 29, 2005 4:09:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to

<snip>

Don't let facts get in the way of MSB's rant. He likes the sound of his own typing,
and will dig himself deeper and deeper, blazing away with his drivel. MSB is 2005's
version of Terry Austin, circa 1996. Now that I understand that, I can treat his
views with all the respect they are due.

"Hang on just one minute, Lord Vhaak'katsuu! My undead minions are eating the staff -
I've just got to convince them again to toe the line. Be right back..."

Tim
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 4:09:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:09:00 +1000, "Tim" <XX@nah.com> scribed into the
ether:

>> Undead cannot be influenced by the intimidate skill; they are immune to
>
><snip>
>
>Don't let facts get in the way of MSB's rant.

They aren't facts, so no, they won't get in MSB's or anyone else's way.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 4:25:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:53:47 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> The problem is you really can't
> accurately predict in any range of comfort what these crazy psychopathic
> undead like ghouls will do.

Wherein is it written that they are crazy?

> In a serious battle their paralyze ability just might affect the
> pit fiend if the devil is unlucky in his saves so to speak.

How? The ghoul cannot defeat the fiend's DR. A ghast can, but it's not
going to do it much good - it takes a critical, and it can't then coup
the fiend because it has nothing that can do real damage to it.

> Such "minions" could be a disaster in a life or death struggle against serious
> foes.

They aren't for such uses, being as they're too weak anyway.

> Worse, the ghouls are smart and can be viewed as insanely
> vindictive against everything... especially their creator. However, I
> agree that pit fiends long existence and experience plus their superhuman
> intelligence and wisdom give them the best shot of any lawful creature to
> use chaotic free-willed undead for their benefit. Truly wise devils,
> however, knowing the nature of chaos even if they can't predict it to a
> devil's comfort zone, will create chaotic undead as experience has taught
> them... wisely and with extreme caution.

They have no need for extreme caution, just wisdom.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
July 29, 2005 4:25:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
news:gmtie1laibet4smb3f3ab42v6hv62cjmah@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:53:47 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> The problem is you really can't
>> accurately predict in any range of comfort what these crazy
>> psychopathic undead like ghouls will do.
>
> Wherein is it written that they are crazy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_illness

page 189 MM 3.5 (Mohrgs) are tortured by an all-consuming hatred of
living things, they long to live again.
page 118. MM 3.5 (Ghouls) Mentions that they may come from cannibals but
that is not proven, these terrible creatures lurk ready to devour the
living. The transformation from living to undeath has warped their minds
making them cunning and feral.
This is just my view though that the standard MM ghoul and mohrg
qualifies as crazy to my satisfaction.

>> In a serious battle their paralyze ability just might affect the
>> pit fiend if the devil is unlucky in his saves so to speak.
>
> How? The ghoul cannot defeat the fiend's DR. A ghast can, but it's not
> going to do it much good - it takes a critical, and it can't then coup
> the fiend because it has nothing that can do real damage to it.

Good point, as I don't play the game anymore what do you think the phrase
"those hit by a ghoul's bite or claw attack must save against
paralysis..." Hit doesn't equal damage. Does this "hitting" override DR
because it doesn't require damage to cause paralysis? The mohrg is a
greater threat; it only has to touch a creature to cause paralysis (no
damage needed MM 3.5 pages 189-190

>> Such "minions" could be a disaster in a life or death struggle
>> against serious foes.
>
> They aren't for such uses, being as they're too weak anyway.

Mohrgs are CR 8, and don't understmate the value of combat distactions.
Those undead take up space, can use up opponents' attacks of opportunity
etc.

>> Worse, the ghouls are smart and can be viewed as insanely
>> vindictive against everything... especially their creator. However, I
>> agree that pit fiends long existence and experience plus their
>> superhuman intelligence and wisdom give them the best shot of any
>> lawful creature to use chaotic free-willed undead for their benefit.
>> Truly wise devils, however, knowing the nature of chaos even if they
>> can't predict it to a devil's comfort zone, will create chaotic
>> undead as experience has taught them... wisely and with extreme
>> caution.
>
> They have no need for extreme caution, just wisdom.

Much wisdom and at least some caution is a good way to put it.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 4:25:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96A1D9C79A5CA619void@199.45.49.11...
> living. The transformation from living to undeath has warped their minds
> making them cunning and feral.
> This is just my view though that the standard MM ghoul and mohrg
> qualifies as crazy to my satisfaction.

And we have established in other discussions that "your satisfaction"
has no resemblance whatsoever to the reality in which we find ourselves.

> Good point, as I don't play the game anymore what do you think the phrase
> "those hit by a ghoul's bite or claw attack must save against
> paralysis..." Hit doesn't equal damage.

The rules have been clarified since they were first penned.

-Michael
!