Duh.. AMD is really getting in trouble

G

Guest

Guest
<A HREF="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid={FA2E492B-DFCD-4DC7-9600-24FB68F295E9}" target="_new"> Shares of Advanced Micro Devices plunged more than 20 percent after the chipmaker issued a revenue warning that dealt technology stocks a blow in Wednesday's after-hours session. </A>

Time for a gamble, and buy some AMD stock; though for the first time ever, Im really getting scared we may never see Hammer, and we'll be paying $1200+ for cpu's again next year.


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 

Schmide

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Have we hit bottom yet. I picked a great time to quit drinking. Oh well. 20% doesn't seem that much when you've almost become a penny stock.

Complicated proofs are proofs of confusion.
 
G

Guest

Guest
>Have we hit bottom yet

Who knows ? Its a casino. If investors lose faith in AMD, it could turn into a downwards spiral that ends with AMD closing down. If enough investors think: AMD is worth more than their current stockprice, it may spiral up again one day. Im betting on the second option, and if I'm right, it should earn me enough money for a few nice Hammer systems this time next year. If I'm wrong, we may not be seeing any Hammers ever, so its no too bad I lost that money ;-p

>20% doesn't seem that much when you've almost become a
>penny stock.

Very true.. if you don't own stock ! If you do, 20% is 20% of whatever money you put in there.


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 

Schmide

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My average purchase price is 15.87 and I can remember when they hit 30, thump thump thump is that my head hitting the wall, so I'm in for the long hull.

Complicated proofs are proofs of confusion.
 

el_choicero

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This is a long ass post about my thoughts on AMD and a little reading between the lines.

First off..I love AMD. I have always been impressed with its ability to compete with such a larger competitor. But something a lot more than a cyclical downturn is going on here.

That webcast on Tuesday was supposed to be a positive PR move. But these chips arent even going to be available in volume for two or three months!! And this is supposed to be the good news. Athlon XP 2600 isnt even listed on pricewatch. If these 'paper' launches are the best bone AMD can throw us, it really worries me about what might be going on with barton and hammer.

I dont like how the guy from AMD freaked out on the webcast when he got asked what the clock speeds were. Thats how you act when youre desperate and your back is to the wall. Its a perfectly reasonable question even if clock speed is overrated as a measure of performance.

And then there was the whole 'Its not SOI thats the problem', 'Wait it is SOI thats the problem'. How can you trust them.

Why does no one want to associate themselves with Hammer?? Ok Dell said they are seriously considering Hammer which should be great news..but analysts are saying its just to get bargaining power with Intel. In April, Microsoft said it was gonna make a windows xp for x86-64. But we havent heard anything else since, its almost like people are distancing themselves from AMD because they fear that AMD will not be able to execute with Hammer. I mean after all the horrible things we've heard about Itanium and Itanium2 and all the great things we hear about Hammer, shouldnt we have a lot more Hammer partners by now?? I don't get it.

Look at the stock chart for AMD. Its lost 50% of its value in less than TWO MONTHS!! The damn thing is in free fall. Nortel, Lucent and even Enron had a bounce or two on the way down. Its like the stock market is telling us that AMD is going under far quicker than anyone expected.

How the hell is AMD gonna make money if Intel keeps putting pressure on prices and keeps increasing its performance lead and AMD delays barton and hammer.

Last, this may be a personal thing but I REALLY wish Jerry hadnt left. He was the visionary of this company, he was inspirational when he spoke and now he is gone. Hector did not sound competent on the last conference call, I dont know if he has what it takes to go head to head with Intel.

Again, I hope I'm wrong and just overreacting but things really don't look good now. In my opinion there are two scenarios: 1) AMD is able to deliver hammer with absolutely NO further delays and in volume - AMD survives, 2) AMD delays hammer or encounters further production problems - AMD is gone by this time next year and maybe sooner. I would hate to see this happen. An Intel dominated world benefits no one but Intel.

I've heard people compare 3dfx to AMD. I dont really remember much about 3dfx but supposedly they had some 'hot' product coming out too that was supposed to save them, rampage or whatever. Is this the same road that AMD is headed down? Someone please prove me wrong.

Sorry about the excessively long rant, this has me freaked out.
 

zigzag

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I would be very interested if someone could do a comparison of 3dfx and AMD. While I didn't keep up with the downfall of 3dfx, I have been keeping up with current AMD events. Are there any striking similarities?

-zigzag
 

phsstpok

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3DFX was getting completely outclassed by nVidia chips. Geforce256 DDR was faster than the unreleased Voodoo 6000 and I think Geforce2 was just the last straw for 3DFX who may also have been overextended financially at the time. Seem to recall they had just purchased STB so that 3DFX could begin manufacturing their own boards.



<b>I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!</b>
 

del_35

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I'd almost forgotten the days when intel ruled the CPU market - please dont let it happen again!!

<font color=purple> "After great thought, things are always bought from the lowest bider"</font color=purple>
 

zigzag

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hmmm, I don't see AMD getting completely outclassed by intel...though, as an earlier comment mentioned, if they cannot deliver on time they may be in trouble...and that may be signs of, as of yet, undisclosed financial problems.

-zigzag
 
the reason why is because of cheap processors and bad marketing. Not to mention VIA!

Once AMD dumps VIA and chooses Nvidia or SiS and improve on their cpu quality you will see AMD once again at the top.

Thats the main reasons why no one is buying AMD products anymore. VIA and/or poor quality of their cpu's. Then you have bad marketing.

They should flat out fire their marketing department if they even have one i should say. Then fire VIA as their chipset supplier. Make engineering work overtime to fix the problem of heat issues. Perhaps patent their own method of thermal throtteling.

Of course the economy is a big problem. However, fixing the above i mentioned would help a lot. Once they fix those issues perhaps one day i'll buy AMD again.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
 
G

Guest

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>Once AMD dumps VIA and chooses Nvidia or SiS

You have the choice, don't you ? There are plenty of decent SiS or nForce motherboards out there. Besides, current VIA chipsets are nowhere near as bas as in the KT133 days. Not up to the level of Intel, but I would dare to say decent nevertheless.

>They should flat out fire their marketing department if
>they even have one i should say.

Probably. Though the "XP" name, and the PR rating did bare their fruits. That where some clever PR moves. The problem may not be the department, but rather their budgets. Chicken and egg problem.

>Make engineering work overtime to fix the problem of heat
>issues. Perhaps patent their own method of thermal
>throtteling.

Thats whats Powernow+ is all about. Now just convince the chipsetsuppliers to support this ! Its also what SOI is all about. Now lets hope they get it to work. Its not like AMD is not aware of the problem, nor that they arent working on it.

>Then fire VIA as their chipset supplier.

VIA isnt AMDs chipset provider. It makes chipsets for Intel as well, as do many other companies. Besides, Hammer systems won't rely nearly as much on the chipset, since its all on-die.




= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 

phsstpok

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In the long run... who knows?

Back in the k6-2/Pentium/Pentium II days AMD CPUs were far behind Intel in performance but during the Athlon (classic) 500 mhz -1000 mhz days AMD more than caught up. I don't see the Athlon XP/Thoroughbred as far behind as the K6-2 was in its day. Maybe AMD can do it again.

I am encouraged by Athlon XP 2800+ performance, at least with preliminary nForce2 mobo's.

Frankly, I don't know how well AMD is doing with other ventures, like flash memory. This might be hurting them too.

[Edited for typos]
<b>I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 10/03/02 02:12 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

spud

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Oh dear spuddy lost money oh dear oh dear. Frikin it wasnt supposed to go that low. God damn people buy some CPU's.

-Jeremy (fairly annoyed right now)

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
 

Kemche

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I don't remember when but in past 6-10 month there was a time when AMD actually traded higher then Intel for couple of days and all the AMD fans cheered. I wonder how they feel now.

KG



"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." - Sarah Chambers
 

eden

Champion
Last, this may be a personal thing but I REALLY wish Jerry hadnt left. He was the visionary of this company, he was inspirational when he spoke and now he is gone. Hector did not sound competent on the last conference call, I dont know if he has what it takes to go head to head with Intel.
I never looked at it this way, but I am starting to believe, that perhaps you are right. Jerry, despite his blind conviction of bringing Intel down and often lack of knowledge in speeches, had the shark attitude, and pushed his company. Does anybody think such would NOT have happened if he was still here?
I miss Jerry now!

--
What made you choose your THG Community username/nickname? <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/community/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=19957#19957" target="_new">Tell here!</A>
 

Crashman

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I've seen profitable companies shut down by their investors/creditors because their stock prices dropped too low.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
 

jclw

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AMD is currently losing around $3m a day. That's $90m a month, or $270m a quarter (or $1.1b a year). AMD will be in serious trouble by the new year unless they (#1) Start producing competitive chips at reasonable yeilds, and (#2) create a demand for the above chips so that they not only sell in quantity, BUT FOR A REASONABLE (to AMD) PRICE. Although I love the idea of paying $150 for an XP2600, that isn't helping AMD any. AMD needs to be able to ask $400 to $500 for their high end processors while still managing sell in volume (as intel does for the P4 2.6 & 2.8 chips).

And intel isn't sleeping either. The new C1 stepping will start at 1.8Ghz, which will reportedly will work it's way down below $60 ($40 according to some sites). <$60 for a chip that will easily o/c to 2.7Ghz? And do 3Ghz without too much effort? Sign me up for two, please.

For those who really want to help out AMD, put your money where your mouth is and start buying MP 2200 chips ($220) instead of XP 2200s ($150).

- JW
 

Kemche

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Last, this may be a personal thing but I REALLY wish Jerry hadnt left. He was the visionary of this company, he was inspirational when he spoke and now he is gone. Hector did not sound competent on the last conference call, I dont know if he has what it takes to go head to head with Intel.
Or did he left because he knew what is AMD heading towards. He just wanted to leave before he would be proven wrong about "Real Man Owns FABs" etc.

Actually Jerry, hasn't left AMD at all. He is still working for AMD. He just doesn't come out in public like before. So even with Jerry AMD is screwing up.

KG

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." - Sarah Chambers
 

dhlucke

Polypheme
Although the stock price is low, it's worth noting the percents that we're talking about.

AMD $3.63, 82.37% below 52 week high
INTC $13.84, 62.37% below 52 week high

Granted, AMD doesn't have the capital that Intel does, but nonetheless, both stocks are getting killed. Look at csco, down below $10. A lot of stocks are at least 50% below their 52 week high. They aren't shutting anyone down. The WHOLE market is a big mess. I'm just going to write my losses off my my taxes for the next couple years.

The real problem, beyond AMD doing paper releases, is the investors that are putting their money in the market. They aren't investors, they're gamblers with no idea of what they're doing. When investing in a company in the short term, as so many did, everyone loses. Unfortionately, at the time, most of us didn't think so. The only people who make money are those in it for the long term. Unfortionately, a bunch of gamblers stick their money in all kinds of stocks, good or bad, and then sell them when they aren't making 50% on their money. Besides that how is any stock supposed to rise in value when everyone is still suffering from those losses? I haven't invested a dollar since the market took it's first nose dive. I can't.

All in all, the market just needs time to recover. People need to have money to spend, and all those people who were just logging onto Etrade and gambling need to get a grip on themselves. Then stock prices will rise again.

If you aren't investing for the long term gain of AMD's, or any company for that matter, future then you're doing it all wrong. I think the stock market is still trying to filter all the short term investors out.

I at least knew I was gambling, so the loss doesn't bother me that much. I invested in the most aggressive stocks possible and was willing to take the chance. It still sucks, but I'm young and will move on.

My two cents.

<font color=red>I'd like to dedicate this post to all my friends, family, and fans. Without them this post would never have been possible. Thank you!</font color=red>
 

zengeos

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Wait for the price to stabilize or go up for 2 days in a row, then load up on it, of course.

My DCA on AMD is right around $8, excluding the sales around $30. Taking that into account, I am still nearly even with AMD, compared with my 50%+ loss in Intel. So, it sorta depends on luck and planning. Right now I've done much better in AMD stock than in Intel stock. Others may have different results.

Mark-

<font color=blue>When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!</font color=blue>
 

jihiggs

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maybe amd has something going for them by raising prices closer to intel, it reminds me of what some linux off shoot did, they started charging for the software just to get it out there for some recognition, the idea is good. big buisness bosses tend to think of cheaper products as lower quality so when they are offered somthing for free they are more likely to turn it down. they think to themselves, free huh, whats wrong with it? something good cant be free, or cheap.

how do you shoot the devil in the back? what happens if you miss? -verbal
 

Dark_Archonis

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Well, well, AMD's really gotten themselves in a pickle this time. I forsaw ( a few months ago) that this would happen to AMD. I bet all of you AMD chiptroopers just love the low prices of Athlons. I mean, why else do you buy Athlons? AMD has made a BIG mistake in selling Athlons at such low prices. The consequence is that AMD isn't making any profits, even if they sell a ton of Athlons. For example, on pricewatch, an XP1600+ is $52. Do you seriously think AMD actually makes a profit on that CPU at that price? I sure don't. According to many analysts and web sites, in terms of raw manufacturing costs, to make an Athlon or P4, it costs about $23 US. Now, this is purely the manufacturing cost. Add in the price of an HSF, say another $10. Now, that's $33. Add in the packaging, say another $5. That $38. This is of course, a rough estimate. I'm taking into account the lowest possible prices for these. Now, lets not forget each CPU has to be tested, and that costs money. For example, lets say it for AMD, about $10 is onto the price of every CPU for testing. That brings us to $48 for a CPU that's ready to be shipped. If you include the shipping charges, then each CPU is about $60. Now, you still need a higher price in order to make a profit. So, if AMD sells it XP1600+ at $52, I don't see there's any way in which they're actually making a profit. Intel on the other hand, makes a nice profit, and I believe right now it actually costs Intel <b>less</b> to manufacture each CPU, compared to AMD, since Intel is now on 300mm wafers. AMD has to change their business plan, and also change it's prices, or they are going to collapse.

Now, lets get on to other stupid mistakes AMD has made which resulted in this mess. In August, they paper launched the XP2400+, and XP2600+, and so far I have yet to see them in any stores. Also, AMD started its $28 Million "AMD Me" AD campaign, which so far, I have only seen on techie sites, like THG. So, in other words, AMD threw $28M out the window by targetting the same fanboys with ADs, that already know about AMD. To add insult to injury, AMD has recently paper launched the XP2700+ and XP2800+. They 2400, and 2600's aren't even available yet, and still, AMD paper launches the 2700, and 2800. To make things worse, the XP2800+, combined with an nForce2 and DDR 333 memory, STILL cannot take the performance crown, even though it now has a 333mhz FSB. So, the 2800 which isn't supposed to come out for another 3 months, cannot outperform the 2.8P4 (even with the amazing performance of the nForce 2), which has been out for over a month. AMD has now done 2 paper launches back to back, and wasted money on that add campaign. In it's 30 year history, Intel has never done anything as stupid and humiliating as this. AMD' stock price is rock bottom.

With all this in mind, there are still a few rabid fanobys out there that have the nerve to say Intel is in a similar position. HELLO! AMD has downgraded revenue to $500 million, and they are expected to have an operating loss this quarter. On top of that, AMD only has about 1 billion US in cash left, which wil only last AMD for another few months. AMD's stock is at like 3.63, while Intel's is at about 13.84. Intel, last quarter, had a revenue of <b>25 billion US</b> which is enormous comapred to AMD's revenue. Intel can survive this kind of recession, AMD cannot. Simple as that. Also, if my estimate is correct, then AMD will paper launch the clawhammer right before christmas, desperately trying to get support and pre-orders for the clawhammer. That would really make alot of people angry. People would be sick and tired of paper launches, and if AMD actually did that, it's stock would probably plummet below $1. Intel is only going to make thing harder for AMD. In Q1 of next year, Intel has a whole whack of new CPU's being released. Not to mention the fact that they could do an early release of Prescott, since all of Intel's roadmaps and releases seem to be accelerating. The clawhammer won't be out in volume until Q2 of next year, according to AMD. Personally, I'm doubtful of whether AMD can last that long.

In short, if AMD does one more stupid move, they're done for.

- - -
<font color=green>All good things must come to an end … so they can be replaced by better things! :wink: </font color=green>
 

chuck232

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I agree with many of your points, but:

First Intel's revenues are ~25B not in a quarter, but in a year. That's down a bit from near 35B a couple years ago.

If AMD gets hit with some SEC investigation of something, I'd be likely to think that it's the end for them.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...