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Practiced Spellcaster

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Anonymous
July 30, 2005 6:46:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.

If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?

More about : practiced spellcaster

Anonymous
July 30, 2005 6:46:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>
> If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
> with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?

Impossible to tell (depends on what, exactly, "arcane spellcasting
level" is supposed to mean). The next "Rules of the Game" article is
actually going to be about familiars, so hopefully that'll answer your
question.

For what it's worth, I'd allow it.

Laszlo
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 2:57:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>
> The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>
> If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
> with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?

No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in any classes
that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get a pseudo-dragon
familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to have four levels of
sorcerer (or another class which grants a familiar).

Practiced Spellcaster affects caster level only - checks to overcome spell
resistance, spell damage dice, et cetera.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 5:28:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:
> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>
>> The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>
>> If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a
>> Pseudo-Dragon with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other
>> classes?
>
> No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in
> any classes that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get
> a pseudo-dragon familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to
> have four levels of sorcerer (or another class which grants a
> familiar).

Or another arcane casting class (such as Bard) and the Obtain Familiar feat
from Complete Arcane.

--
Mark.
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 5:51:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:TBTGe.67213$oJ.33610@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>
>> The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>
>> If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>> with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>
> No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in any
> classes that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get a
> pseudo-dragon familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to have
> four levels of sorcerer (or another class which grants a familiar).
>
> Practiced Spellcaster affects caster level only - checks to overcome spell
> resistance, spell damage dice, et cetera.
>

I don't see how you say it is "no."

The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level - 7th"

Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.

No where does it say that you MUST BE A 7th LEVEL WIZARD/SORCERER - only
that you must have an arcane spell caster level of 7
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 11:39:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>
> If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
> with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?

No, any more than you can claim the ability to take the Craft Wand feat
with 1 level of Wizard and 4 levels of Cleric.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:16:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> news:TBTGe.67213$oJ.33610@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>
>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>
>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>
>>No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in any
>>classes that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get a
>>pseudo-dragon familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to have
>>four levels of sorcerer (or another class which grants a familiar).
>>
>>Practiced Spellcaster affects caster level only - checks to overcome spell
>>resistance, spell damage dice, et cetera.
>>
>
>
> I don't see how you say it is "no."
>
> The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level - 7th"

The caster level of your spells and your arcane spellcaster level isn't
the same
thing, as you can see by looking at a multiclass sorceror/bard. He may
be 3/4 in
his 2 classes, but they don't stack for purposes of caster level.

> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
> used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
> Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>
> No where does it say that you MUST BE A 7th LEVEL WIZARD/SORCERER - only
> that you must have an arcane spell caster level of 7

Practiced Spellcaster does NOT raise your arcane spellcaster level--if
it did, you'd
also have more spells per day, which you don't. All it does is change
the value of
spells you class from a given class so they are more effective than your
actual class
level would dicate.

Now, if the other 4 levels were in a prestige class that granted a bonus
to your arcane
caster level (such as alienist), they WOULD count towards the
prerequisite. Since it's
impossible to qualify for alienist at 3rd level, though, this renders
this specific point moot,
but not for higher level builds.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 2:18:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Master Grunthros the Flatulent" <Erich__G@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5c8He.84950$%Z2.13311@lakeread08...
>
> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> news:TBTGe.67213$oJ.33610@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>
>>> The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>
>>> If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>> with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>
>> No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in any
>> classes that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get a
>> pseudo-dragon familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to have
>> four levels of sorcerer (or another class which grants a familiar).
>>
>> Practiced Spellcaster affects caster level only - checks to overcome
>> spell resistance, spell damage dice, et cetera.
>>
>
> I don't see how you say it is "no."
>
> The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level - 7th"
>
> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
> used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
> Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>
> No where does it say that you MUST BE A 7th LEVEL WIZARD/SORCERER - only
> that you must have an arcane spell caster level of 7

As a matter of fact, there is a discussion in Complete Arcane discussing a
similar matter, and according to my reading, Practiced Spellcaster *would*
fulfill the requirement.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 2:19:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:tXfHe.23262$HV1.7675@fed1read07...
> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>> The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>
>> If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>> with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>
> No, any more than you can claim the ability to take the Craft Wand feat
> with 1 level of Wizard and 4 levels of Cleric.

Since you have caster level 5 due to the feat (thus meeting the
prerequisite), you most certainly can take Craft Wand.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 7:01:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:
>
> No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting class",
> i.e., wizard and sorcerer.

How do you know? It could just as easily be "caster level in an arcane
spellcasting class".

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:18:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>
> I don't see how you say it is "no."

Well, let's see.

> The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
> 7th"

Yes.

> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
> used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
> Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.

No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting class",
i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different mechanic. You need to
familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this discussion.

> No where does it say that you MUST BE A 7th LEVEL WIZARD/SORCERER - only
> that you must have an arcane spell caster level of 7

That's because Wizards of the Coast words their rules so as to account for
possibilities other than those which already exist. If you had *another* arcane
spellcasting class with a familiar, wording it that way would exclude them for
no reason. It also makes the feat useful with games incorporating entirely
different classes.

These patterns are observable across the whole body of Wizards' published
material. It's not my fault or theirs if you can't perceive them.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:57:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:8ugHe.23269$HV1.13128@fed1read07...
> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:TBTGe.67213$oJ.33610@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>
>>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>>
>>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>>
>>>No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in any
>>>classes that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get a
>>>pseudo-dragon familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to have
>>>four levels of sorcerer (or another class which grants a familiar).
>>>
>>>Practiced Spellcaster affects caster level only - checks to overcome
>>>spell resistance, spell damage dice, et cetera.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>
>> The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
>> 7th"
>
> The caster level of your spells and your arcane spellcaster level isn't
> the same thing,

This is irrelevant. If "caster level" is the prerequisite, Practiced
Spellcaster (which specifically raises "your caster level for the chosen
spellcasting class") can help you qualify.

>> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>> used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>> Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>>
>> No where does it say that you MUST BE A 7th LEVEL WIZARD/SORCERER - only
>> that you must have an arcane spell caster level of 7
>
> Practiced Spellcaster does NOT raise your arcane spellcaster level

If you are asserting that "arcane spellcaster level" means something
different than "arcane caster level," then you may have a point.

> it did, you'd also have more spells per day, which you don't. All it does
> is change the value of spells you class from a given class so they are
> more effective than your actual class level would dicate.

No, it raises your Caster Level. There is nothing in the feat to indicate
any limitations to this. It does not say "your caster level increases by 4,
but only for purposes X, Y, and Z."

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 1:00:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how you say it is "no."
>
> Well, let's see.
>
>> The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
>> 7th"
>
> Yes.
>
>> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>> used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>> Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>
> No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting
> class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different mechanic.
> You need to familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this
> discussion.

Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and "caster
level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things). I would
like to see some clarification on this in one of the books, though.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:05:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Master Grunthros the Flatulent" <Erich__G@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5c8He.84950$%Z2.13311@lakeread08...
>
>>"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:TBTGe.67213$oJ.33610@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>
>>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>>
>>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>>
>>>No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in any
>>>classes that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get a
>>>pseudo-dragon familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to have
>>>four levels of sorcerer (or another class which grants a familiar).
>>>
>>>Practiced Spellcaster affects caster level only - checks to overcome
>>>spell resistance, spell damage dice, et cetera.
>>>
>>
>>I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>
>>The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level - 7th"
>>
>>Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>>used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>>Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>>
>>No where does it say that you MUST BE A 7th LEVEL WIZARD/SORCERER - only
>>that you must have an arcane spell caster level of 7
>
>
> As a matter of fact, there is a discussion in Complete Arcane discussing a
> similar matter, and according to my reading, Practiced Spellcaster *would*
> fulfill the requirement.
>

Your caster level and your arcane spellcaster level aren't the same
thing. This is discussed
in Complete Arcane, as you point out. Going by the text on pages 18 and
72 of said book,
Practiced Spellcaster would not fulfil the requirement, as "arcane
spellcaster level" means you
have the ability to cast the spells associated with that level.
Practiced Spellcaster never gives
you access to more or higher level spells, though. Your wizard
3/(whatever)4 does not have
access to 4th level spells as a 7th level wizard would have, and that's
what is required for the
feat prerequisites. (For sorcerors and bards, subsitute the appropriate
higher level spell.)

With magic items, it's less clear because they've inexplicably changed
the prerequisite from "spellcaster
level" to "caster level," which in theory means you could meet item
creation feats via P.S. On the other
hand, since you have to actually be able to cast the spell in question,
this limits how useful such a feat
would otherwise be. A 2nd wizard/4th cleric could thus, using the
strictest reading of the rules, take
"Craft Wand" as a 6th level feat, but even then could still not make a
wand with anything higher than
1st level wizard or 2nd level cleric spells (depending on where the P.S.
feat was applied when it was picked).

This is a change from 3.0, where it was "spellcaster level," not "caster
level," that determined feat eligibility.
I think it should still be that way, or else you run into a head when a
wild mage tries to make certain items.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:10:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:tXfHe.23262$HV1.7675@fed1read07...
>
>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>
>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>
>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>
>>No, any more than you can claim the ability to take the Craft Wand feat
>>with 1 level of Wizard and 4 levels of Cleric.
>
>
> Since you have caster level 5 due to the feat (thus meeting the
> prerequisite), you most certainly can take Craft Wand.

Are you speaking about wizard 1/cleric 4 with or without "Practiced
Spellcaster"?

With, yes you can according to the RAW, though it's of limited utility.

Without, no you can't, as caster levels in different classes don't stack
for that purpose.
This was explicitly spelled out in 3.0, and (to my mind) is probably the
way it should
really be in 3.5 as well:

From the 3.0 FAQ:

"All the item creation feats have prerequisites of “x
spellcaster level." Do spellcaster levels from different
spellcasting classes stack? In other words, is a Wiz4/Sor4 an
8th-level or 4th-level spellcaster?"

Spellcasting levels don’t stack; if a prerequisite is x
spellcaster level you need x levels in a spellcasting class to
meet the prerequisite."

Also:

"Can multiclass spellcasters combine their levels to satisfy
the level prerequisites for item creation feats? For example,
the Forge Ring feat requires a spellcaster of level 12+. If I
am a 6th-level cleric/6th-level wizard do I qualify, or would
I need to be 12th level in one or the other?"

"You need to have the listed number of levels in a single
spellcasting class. In the case of Forge Ring, you need 12 levels
in a spellcasting class. Note that if you have a prestige class
that improves the spellcasting ability of another class, you use
your effective caster level to meet the prerequisite. For
example, a 10th-level wizard/2nd-level loremaster is a 12thlevel
spellcaster and meets the prerequisite for Forge Ring."


In my opinion, this should also be true in 3.5 but apparently they
changed that
so warlocks and nixies can make magic items.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:13:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> Christopher Adams wrote:
>
>>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting class",
>>i.e., wizard and sorcerer.
>
>
> How do you know? It could just as easily be "caster level in an arcane
> spellcasting class".
>
> Laszlo
>

This is spelled out in "Complete Arcane," page 72.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:36:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:8ugHe.23269$HV1.13128@fed1read07...
>
>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>
>>>"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
>>>news:TBTGe.67213$oJ.33610@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>>>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>>>
>>>>No. Familiars' power is determined by a character's class level in any
>>>>classes that grant the familiar ability - so the only way to get a
>>>>pseudo-dragon familiar with only three levels of wizard would be to have
>>>>four levels of sorcerer (or another class which grants a familiar).
>>>>
>>>>Practiced Spellcaster affects caster level only - checks to overcome
>>>>spell resistance, spell damage dice, et cetera.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>>
>>>The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
>>>7th"
>>
>>The caster level of your spells and your arcane spellcaster level isn't
>>the same thing,
>
>
> This is irrelevant. If "caster level" is the prerequisite, Practiced
> Spellcaster (which specifically raises "your caster level for the chosen
> spellcasting class") can help you qualify.

But the prerequisite for Improved Familiar isn't 'caster level,' it's
"arcane
spellcaster level," which is defined as the number of levels you have in
either
a single class or a single class plus any qualifying prestige class
levels. Hence,
you caster level doesn't matter for purposes of that feat.

> >> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>
>>>used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>>>Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>>>
>>>No where does it say that you MUST BE A 7th LEVEL WIZARD/SORCERER - only
>>>that you must have an arcane spell caster level of 7
>>
>>Practiced Spellcaster does NOT raise your arcane spellcaster level
>
>
> If you are asserting that "arcane spellcaster level" means something
> different than "arcane caster level," then you may have a point.

It does. See page 72 of "Complete Arcane" for details.

>>it did, you'd also have more spells per day, which you don't. All it does
>>is change the value of spells you class from a given class so they are
>>more effective than your actual class level would dicate.
>
>
> No, it raises your Caster Level. There is nothing in the feat to indicate
> any limitations to this. It does not say "your caster level increases by 4,
> but only for purposes X, Y, and Z."

It's not your caster level that determines your spells know and spells
per day,
it's your spellcaster level. This is covered in "Complete Arcane" and
also in the
description of the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:36:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>
>>>I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>
>>Well, let's see.
>>
>>
>>>The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
>>>7th"
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>
>>>Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>>>used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>>>Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>>
>>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting
>>class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different mechanic.
>>You need to familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this
>>discussion.
>
>
> Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and "caster
> level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things). I would
> like to see some clarification on this in one of the books, though.
>

Complete Arcane, pages 18 and 72 to start. I can probably dig up other
references
given time.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:40:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
>
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
> > "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> > news:tXfHe.23262$HV1.7675@fed1read07...
> >
> >>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> >>
> >>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
> >>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
> >>
> >>No, any more than you can claim the ability to take the Craft Wand feat
> >>with 1 level of Wizard and 4 levels of Cleric.
> >
> > Since you have caster level 5 due to the feat (thus meeting the
> > prerequisite), you most certainly can take Craft Wand.
>
> Are you speaking about wizard 1/cleric 4 with or without "Practiced
> Spellcaster"?

It's quite clear he is assuming the Wiz1/Clr4 has the
Practiced Spellcaster feat.

> With, yes you can according to the RAW, though it's of limited utility.

And we're done.

-Bluto
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 2:46:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:o ezHe.23392$HV1.7621@fed1read07...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>
>>>>I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>>
>>>Well, let's see.
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
>>>>7th"
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>>>>used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>>>>Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>>>
>>>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting
>>>class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different
>>>mechanic.
>>>You need to familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this
>>>discussion.
>>
>>
>> Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and
>> "caster level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things).
>> I would like to see some clarification on this in one of the books,
>> though.
>>
>
> Complete Arcane, pages 18 and 72 to start. I can probably dig up other
> references given time.

Page 72 works. Good find.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 2:48:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:WRyHe.23384$HV1.14917@fed1read07...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
>> news:tXfHe.23262$HV1.7675@fed1read07...
>>
>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>
>>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>>
>>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>>
>>>No, any more than you can claim the ability to take the Craft Wand feat
>>>with 1 level of Wizard and 4 levels of Cleric.
>>
>>
>> Since you have caster level 5 due to the feat (thus meeting the
>> prerequisite), you most certainly can take Craft Wand.
>
> Are you speaking about wizard 1/cleric 4 with or without "Practiced
> Spellcaster"?

With.

> "You need to have the listed number of levels in a single
> spellcasting class. In the case of Forge Ring, you need 12 levels
> in a spellcasting class. Note that if you have a prestige class
> that improves the spellcasting ability of another class, you use
> your effective caster level to meet the prerequisite. For
> example, a 10th-level wizard/2nd-level loremaster is a 12thlevel
> spellcaster and meets the prerequisite for Forge Ring."

> In my opinion, this should also be true in 3.5 but apparently they changed
> that so warlocks and nixies can make magic items.

....and so that Mystic Theurges can take item creation feats sooner if they
take Practiced Spellcaster.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 3:26:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>
>> Well, let's see.
>>
>>> The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level
>>> - 7th"
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is
>>> what is used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my
>>> caster level of Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to
>>> 7 - it qualifies.
>>
>> No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane
>> spellcasting class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a
>> different mechanic. You need to familiarise yourself with the terms
>> of art at work in this discussion.
>
> Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and
> "caster level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different
> things). I would like to see some clarification on this in one of the
> books, though.

FWIW, this is the interpretation I'd take. I wouldn't allow Practiced
Spellcaster to help you meet the prereqs for Improved Familiar; PS only
improves 'how hard' you cast the spells, not 'everything to do with
spellcasting', let alone familiars (which have nothing really to do with
spellcasting).

Some time ago I posted a feat[1] that gave +1 to spellcaster level for
'everything' (including spells known), to a maximum of your HD (i.e. it
could be used for filling in, but not getting ahead) and was stackable.
In this case, since it applies to all spellcasting considerations, I
might allow it to count toward Improved Familiar. OTOH, I might not;
the purpose of this feat is to improve spellcasting alone, *not* improve
the familiar... but technically, it sounds like it'd be closer.

OTOH, I've seen a feat that beefs your familiar up as if you had two
more levels in the familiar-granting class. This one I would
*certainly* allow to count toward Improved Familiar prereqs. I don't
remember the name of the feat or where I saw it, of course.

[1] http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.frp.dnd/browse_...


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 3:38:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>OTOH, I've seen a feat that beefs your familiar up as if you had two
>more levels in the familiar-granting class. This one I would
>*certainly* allow to count toward Improved Familiar prereqs. I don't
>remember the name of the feat or where I saw it, of course.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of (I believe it's called) Natural
Companion from Complete Adventurer (I think), which beefs up your
Animal Companion? If it granted four levels instead of two, it'd
be amazing for Rangers. As it is, I'm not sure I'd ever take it.

Donald
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 3:54:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>OTOH, I've seen a feat that beefs your familiar up as if you had two
>>more levels in the familiar-granting class. This one I would
>>*certainly* allow to count toward Improved Familiar prereqs. I don't
>>remember the name of the feat or where I saw it, of course.
>
> Are you sure you aren't thinking of (I believe it's called) Natural
> Companion from Complete Adventurer (I think), which beefs up your
> Animal Companion? If it granted four levels instead of two, it'd
> be amazing for Rangers. As it is, I'm not sure I'd ever take it.

Nope, I'm sure. I forget what it was, but I remember seeing it before
Complete Adventurer came out.

In fact, I think the thread where I discussed my replacement for
Practiced Spellcaster came out was before Complete Adventurer --
probably shortly after Complete Divine came out.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 11:19:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> > Christopher Adams wrote:
> >
> >>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting class",
> >>i.e., wizard and sorcerer.
> >
> >
> > How do you know? It could just as easily be "caster level in an arcane
> > spellcasting class".
> >
> > Laszlo
> >
>
> This is spelled out in "Complete Arcane," page 72.

CA page 72 is interesting, mostly in that it manages to confuse the
issue even further. It has a _heading_ called "Arcane Spellcaster
Level". The paragraphs under that heading then completely fail to
define or even _mention_ the term "arcane spellcaster level", instead
blathering on about the level of spells a character can cast... which
is _clearly_ not even close to the intended meaning of the term, unless
you're saying that a level 7 Wizard can have a pseudodragon familiar,
but a level 7 Sorcerer can't.

I honestly have no idea why the heading on page 72 reads "Arcane
Spellcaster Level".

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 11:22:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't see how you say it is "no."
> >
> > Well, let's see.
> >
> >> The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
> >> 7th"
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >> Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
> >> used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
> >> Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
> >
> > No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting
> > class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different mechanic.
> > You need to familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this
> > discussion.
>
> Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and "caster
> level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things). I would
> like to see some clarification on this in one of the books, though.

To make things even more murky, Obtain Familiar has an "arcane caster
level" requirement. If "arcane spellcaster level" and "caster level in
an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things, then which one
is meant by "arcane caster level"? And more importantly, how can you
tell?

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 11:24:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:o ezHe.23392$HV1.7621@fed1read07...
> > Malachias Invictus wrote:
> >> "Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> >> news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >>
> >>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>I don't see how you say it is "no."
> >>>
> >>>Well, let's see.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
> >>>>7th"
> >>>
> >>>Yes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
> >>>>used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
> >>>>Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
> >>>
> >>>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting
> >>>class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different
> >>>mechanic.
> >>>You need to familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this
> >>>discussion.
> >>
> >>
> >> Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and
> >> "caster level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things).
> >> I would like to see some clarification on this in one of the books,
> >> though.
> >>
> >
> > Complete Arcane, pages 18 and 72 to start. I can probably dig up other
> > references given time.
>
> Page 72 works. Good find.

It does?

Maybe I missed something. Could someone give me a quote from page 72
that clarifies (as opposed to further obscures) the matter?

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 3:21:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <dcmbpo$13t8$1@agate.berkeley.edu>,
tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu says...

> >OTOH, I've seen a feat that beefs your familiar up as if you had two
> >more levels in the familiar-granting class. This one I would
> >*certainly* allow to count toward Improved Familiar prereqs. I don't
> >remember the name of the feat or where I saw it, of course.
>
> Are you sure you aren't thinking of (I believe it's called) Natural
> Companion from Complete Adventurer (I think), which beefs up your
> Animal Companion? If it granted four levels instead of two, it'd
> be amazing for Rangers. As it is, I'm not sure I'd ever take it.

It grants +3, doesn't it?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 5:26:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:1122992216.523587.142170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> So you're saying "arcane caster level" and "arcane spellcaster level"
> are two completely different things? I'm not saying I disagree... I'm
> saying I don't think there's enough evidence to decide either way.
>

They should be. Unfortunately, WotC uses the terms interchangeably, at least
in Complete Arcane.
Most likely because you could argue that the Warlock is not a SPELLcaster
even tho those prereqs are obviously designed to include them.

The better question to argue is, Does the Hexblade qualify for a
Pseudodragon at 7th or 14th?
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:16:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> Some Guy wrote:
>
>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>>>Christopher Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting class",
>>>>i.e., wizard and sorcerer.
>>>
>>>
>>>How do you know? It could just as easily be "caster level in an arcane
>>>spellcasting class".
>>>
>>>Laszlo
>>>
>>
>>This is spelled out in "Complete Arcane," page 72.
>
>
> CA page 72 is interesting, mostly in that it manages to confuse the
> issue even further. It has a _heading_ called "Arcane Spellcaster
> Level". The paragraphs under that heading then completely fail to
> define or even _mention_ the term "arcane spellcaster level", instead
> blathering on about the level of spells a character can cast... which
> is _clearly_ not even close to the intended meaning of the term, unless
> you're saying that a level 7 Wizard can have a pseudodragon familiar,
> but a level 7 Sorcerer can't.

No, both a level 7 wizard and a level 7 sorceror have an arcane spellcaster
level of 7. So does a wizard 3/sorceror 4. However, a rogue 3/sorceror 4
does NOT have an arcane spellcaster level of 7, even with Practiced
Spellcaster,
because the latter feat does not increase the character's level in that
class, only
the effectiveness of their spells, etc.

> I honestly have no idea why the heading on page 72 reads "Arcane
> Spellcaster Level".
>
> Laszlo

Try reading it more slowly.
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:19:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>>"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>
>>>>I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>>
>>>Well, let's see.
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
>>>>7th"
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>>>>used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>>>>Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>>>
>>>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting
>>>class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different mechanic.
>>>You need to familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this
>>>discussion.
>>
>>Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and "caster
>>level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things). I would
>>like to see some clarification on this in one of the books, though.
>
>
> To make things even more murky, Obtain Familiar has an "arcane caster
> level" requirement. If "arcane spellcaster level" and "caster level in
> an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things, then which one
> is meant by "arcane caster level"? And more importantly, how can you
> tell?
>
> Laszlo

Spellcaster level is what determines how many spells you can cast per
day, and/or
know. Caster level is what affects the variables of the spells you cast.

For single class spellcasters, the two are the same. For mixed class
spellcasters with
feats and/or prestige classes that modify one or the other, they can vary.
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:20:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:WRyHe.23384$HV1.14917@fed1read07...
>
>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>
>>>"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
>>>news:tXfHe.23262$HV1.7675@fed1read07...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a Pseudo-Dragon
>>>>>with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other classes?
>>>>
>>>>No, any more than you can claim the ability to take the Craft Wand feat
>>>>with 1 level of Wizard and 4 levels of Cleric.
>>>
>>>
>>>Since you have caster level 5 due to the feat (thus meeting the
>>>prerequisite), you most certainly can take Craft Wand.
>>
>>Are you speaking about wizard 1/cleric 4 with or without "Practiced
>>Spellcaster"?
>
>
> With.
>
>
>>"You need to have the listed number of levels in a single
>>spellcasting class. In the case of Forge Ring, you need 12 levels
>>in a spellcasting class. Note that if you have a prestige class
>>that improves the spellcasting ability of another class, you use
>>your effective caster level to meet the prerequisite. For
>>example, a 10th-level wizard/2nd-level loremaster is a 12thlevel
>>spellcaster and meets the prerequisite for Forge Ring."
>
>
>>In my opinion, this should also be true in 3.5 but apparently they changed
>>that so warlocks and nixies can make magic items.
>
>
> ...and so that Mystic Theurges can take item creation feats sooner if they
> take Practiced Spellcaster.
>

Eh.
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:58:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>>"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
>>news:o ezHe.23392$HV1.7621@fed1read07...
>>
>>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>news:lVkHe.68485$oJ.24613@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't see how you say it is "no."
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, let's see.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The Imp Fam feat reads as the prerquisite "Arcane spellcaster level -
>>>>>>7th"
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by 4, which is what is
>>>>>>used in determining the prerequisite. If this raises my caster level of
>>>>>>Wizard (an arcan spell casting class) by 4 from 3 to 7 - it qualifies.
>>>>>
>>>>>No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane spellcasting
>>>>>class", i.e., wizard and sorcerer. "Caster level" is a different
>>>>>mechanic.
>>>>>You need to familiarise yourself with the terms of art at work in this
>>>>>discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Okay, I can buy that argument (that "arcane spellcaster level" and
>>>>"caster level in an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things).
>>>>I would like to see some clarification on this in one of the books,
>>>>though.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Complete Arcane, pages 18 and 72 to start. I can probably dig up other
>>>references given time.
>>
>>Page 72 works. Good find.
>
>
> It does?
>
> Maybe I missed something. Could someone give me a quote from page 72
> that clarifies (as opposed to further obscures) the matter?
>
> Laszlo

Actually, it's pretty simple. The first entry, "Caster level," doesn't
care how your
caster level is derived or in what class. This means that you simply
use the effectiveness
of your spells or spell-like abilities (or invocations) as the
determinant, because they all have
caster levels but they aren't all spells. Thus, anything that requires
a "caster level" is the most
open to entry for classes and monsters, and anything that affects caster
level can be applied
to this.

The second entry, "Spellcasting level," is based specifically on the
ability to cast spells of
a given level (and usually type). This disallows spell-like abilities
and invocations, because
neither of those are spells. Spellcasting level is the measure of what
level and number of spells
you can cast. Usually the only thing that affects your spellcasting
level is direct class levels, either
in a given class or a prestige class that adds effective spellcasting
levels. Feats such as Practiced
Spellcaster, which only affect your caster level in a given class, thus
don't affect your spellcasting
level--as stated in the spell description--and so they don't grant more
spells or allow access to prestige
classes that require a given spellcasting level.

So, if we look at a couple of the PrCs in "Complete Arcane," we see that
the acolyte of the skin has a
requirement of "Caster level 5th," among its other prerequisites. This
means you could meet that part
in any of a number of ways:

• By being a 5th level spellcaster of any type;
• By being a 5th level warlock;
• By being a monster that has a caster level of 5th for one of its
spell-like abilities (any half-fiend with at
least 5 HD, for example)

On the other hand, a geometer has to be able to prepare and cast 3rd
level arcane spells. This means
essentially only wizards and wu jen, since sorcerors and bards don't
prepare spells and warlocks or
half-fiends don't cast spells at all.
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 9:10:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Marshall wrote:
> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:1122992216.523587.142170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>>So you're saying "arcane caster level" and "arcane spellcaster level"
>>are two completely different things? I'm not saying I disagree... I'm
>>saying I don't think there's enough evidence to decide either way.
>>
>
>
> They should be. Unfortunately, WotC uses the terms interchangeably, at least
> in Complete Arcane.
> Most likely because you could argue that the Warlock is not a SPELLcaster
> even tho those prereqs are obviously designed to include them.
>
> The better question to argue is, Does the Hexblade qualify for a
> Pseudodragon at 7th or 14th?
>
>

It's actually 10th, since a hexblade starts getting spells at 4th level
and you need
to have an arcane spellcasting level of 7th (i.e. 7 levels in a class
that casts arcane
spells). The first three levels of hexblade don't cast spells and so
don't qualify. You
could, however, stack PrC levels with applicable hexblade levels to meet
this as well.
A hexblade 4/alienist 6 also is considered to have a spellcasting level
of 7 and thus
would meet that prerequisite for Improved Familiar (pseudodragon).
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 9:16:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
>> Some Guy wrote:
>>
>>> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>>
>>>> Christopher Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> No. "Arcane spellcaster level" = "class level in an arcane
>>>>> spellcasting class",
>>>>> i.e., wizard and sorcerer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How do you know? It could just as easily be "caster level in an arcane
>>>> spellcasting class".
>>>>
>>>> Laszlo
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is spelled out in "Complete Arcane," page 72.
>>
>>
>>
>> CA page 72 is interesting, mostly in that it manages to confuse the
>> issue even further. It has a _heading_ called "Arcane Spellcaster
>> Level". The paragraphs under that heading then completely fail to
>> define or even _mention_ the term "arcane spellcaster level", instead
>> blathering on about the level of spells a character can cast... which
>> is _clearly_ not even close to the intended meaning of the term, unless
>> you're saying that a level 7 Wizard can have a pseudodragon familiar,
>> but a level 7 Sorcerer can't.
>
>
> No, both a level 7 wizard and a level 7 sorceror have an arcane spellcaster
> level of 7. So does a wizard 3/sorceror 4.

[ERRATA] So does a wizard 3/sorceror 4 for determining familiar abilities,
but not for qualifying for the Improved Familiar feat.

However, a rogue 3/sorceror 4
> does NOT have an arcane spellcaster level of 7, even with Practiced
> Spellcaster,
> because the latter feat does not increase the character's level in that
> class, only
> the effectiveness of their spells, etc.
>
>> I honestly have no idea why the heading on page 72 reads "Arcane
>> Spellcaster Level".
>>
>> Laszlo
>
>
> Try reading it more slowly.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:49:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> To make things even more murky, Obtain Familiar has an "arcane caster
> level" requirement. If "arcane spellcaster level" and "caster level in
> an arcane spellcasting class" are two different things, then which one
> is meant by "arcane caster level"? And more importantly, how can you
> tell?

Maybe this will make it simple:

It's not insignificant that "spellcaster" is one word.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:59:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Marshall wrote:
>
> The better question to argue is, Does the Hexblade qualify for a
> Pseudodragon at 7th or 14th?

See below. However, "arcane spellcaster level" absolutely means "class level in
a class which casts arcane spells".

Arguably, the warlock never qualifies for Improved Familiar, the way the feat is
worded. One can reasonably assume they never anticipated publishing a class with
an arcane caster level that did not cast spells, of course. The Obtain Familiar
feat only muddies the issue, with "arcane caster level" in the prerequisites and
"levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells" in the text.
Arguably, though, the term "arcane caster class level" in the previous phrase
*does* let the warlock in, and Rich Baker just couldn't (or didn't) think of a
way to better phrase the rest of the sentence.

The hexblade actually demonstrates clearly that a familiar depends on class
level and not on caster level - the wording of its own summon familiar ability
is "treat a hexblade as a sorcerer of three levels lower for determining the
familiar's power and abilities." That's not "caster level -3".

Therefore, to answer your question: 10th level. ;) 

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 4:20:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
>
> It's actually 10th, since a hexblade starts getting spells at
> 4th level and you need to have an arcane spellcasting
> level of 7th (i.e. 7 levels in a class that casts arcane spells).
> The first three levels of hexblade don't cast spells and so
> don't qualify.

Your answer is correct but your working is wrong. ;) 

The reason it's 10th is because "a warlock is treated as a sorcerer of three
levels lower" when you determine a familiar's abilities (and qualification for
Improved Familiar). Yes, it's also true that you arrive at this figure by
discounting the first three levels, but that's a backwards way of going about
it.

Note that a hexblade's caster level, like a paladin's or a ranger's, is one-half
his class level. If familiar abilities depended upon caster level he would have
to wait until 14th level, which would be lame. ;) 

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Berawler: Is there any sanity or light left in this shrivelled husk of a world?
SingingDancingMoose: There was, but we had to trade it in for the internet.
Berawler: That is quite possibly the best response to any question ever.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 4:20:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:
> Some Guy wrote:
>
>>It's actually 10th, since a hexblade starts getting spells at
>>4th level and you need to have an arcane spellcasting
>>level of 7th (i.e. 7 levels in a class that casts arcane spells).
>>The first three levels of hexblade don't cast spells and so
>>don't qualify.
>
>
> Your answer is correct but your working is wrong. ;) 

Well, not really.

> The reason it's 10th is because "a warlock is treated as a sorcerer of three
> levels lower" when you determine a familiar's abilities (and qualification for
> Improved Familiar). Yes, it's also true that you arrive at this figure by
> discounting the first three levels, but that's a backwards way of going about
> it.

ITYM "hexblade," not "warlock." However, the feat doesn't care about
what the
familiar's abilities are--that's not a prerequisite. It's "arcane
spellcaster level,"
and not "caster level," neither of which affect a familiar's abilities,
as is proven
by looking at a wizard/3 sorceror 4. Such a character does NOT have an
arcane
spellcaster level of 7th, but his/her familiar will have the same
abilities as either
a 7th level wizard or a 7th level sorceror, and thus does not qualify
for the
"Improved Familiar" feat.

> Note that a hexblade's caster level, like a paladin's or a ranger's, is one-half
> his class level. If familiar abilities depended upon caster level he would have
> to wait until 14th level, which would be lame. ;) 

This is true. Luckily, caster level also does not affect a familiar's
abilities.
August 3, 2005 12:00:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in
news:BcTHe.27123$HV1.1313@fed1read07:

> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
>> news:WRyHe.23384$HV1.14917@fed1read07...
>>
>>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
>>>>news:tXfHe.23262$HV1.7675@fed1read07...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The feat states that it increases you caster level by 4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you take this feat and Improved familiar, can you get a
>>>>>>Pseudo-Dragon with only 3 levels of wizard and 4 levels of other
>>>>>>classes?
>>>>>
>>>>>No, any more than you can claim the ability to take the Craft Wand
>>>>>feat with 1 level of Wizard and 4 levels of Cleric.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Since you have caster level 5 due to the feat (thus meeting the
>>>>prerequisite), you most certainly can take Craft Wand.
>>>
>>>Are you speaking about wizard 1/cleric 4 with or without "Practiced
>>>Spellcaster"?
>>
>>
>> With.
>>
>>
>>>"You need to have the listed number of levels in a single
>>>spellcasting class. In the case of Forge Ring, you need 12 levels
>>>in a spellcasting class. Note that if you have a prestige class
>>>that improves the spellcasting ability of another class, you use
>>>your effective caster level to meet the prerequisite. For
>>>example, a 10th-level wizard/2nd-level loremaster is a 12thlevel
>>>spellcaster and meets the prerequisite for Forge Ring."
>>
>>
>>>In my opinion, this should also be true in 3.5 but apparently they
>>>changed that so warlocks and nixies can make magic items.
>>
>>
>> ...and so that Mystic Theurges can take item creation feats sooner if
>> they take Practiced Spellcaster.
>>
>
> Eh.


The 3.5 Item Creation feat changes do have the effect of weakening pure
paladins' and rangers' ability to produce magic weapons, armor, and such
items as wands. They will have to wait until 10th-level if they have a
feat available (12th-level to one's with only one class) to produce the
above items. And that is proper; they are not the masters of magic others
in the game world are.
February 13, 2014 7:16:07 AM

what. the. f.
!