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Bye Bye Clawhammer...

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October 17, 2002 8:12:19 PM

Welp AMD let the cat out of the bag yesterday with the announcement that AMD will target the server market with Opteron and skip the desktop till the barton. This will snuff any ideas you had about running x86-64 on the desktop.

<A HREF="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,637644,00.as..." target="_new">Click</A>

AMD still having problems getting the 2400+ out the door. 2200+ is still the highest CPU readily available from AMD.

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.

More about : bye bye clawhammer

October 17, 2002 8:29:43 PM

Actually it says that the Clawhammer wont hit the Desktop market till 2H 2003...but it does says that it wont be released as early as everyone or even they were entisapating for the Desktop market....

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=13597" target="_new">-MeTaL RoCkEr</A>
October 17, 2002 8:35:08 PM

I should have worded better, but you get the gist of it.

Now is a good time for THG to do some clawhammer mobo reviews...

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
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Anonymous
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October 17, 2002 8:40:06 PM

>This will snuff any ideas you had about running x86-64 on
>the desktop.

AMD had already delayed the clawhammer till Q2 2003. The only thing "new" is that Opteron/sledge is still on course for a H1 launch. This makes sense, since sledge is a higher profit, lower quanitity product. To me, this is rather good news than bad. I had feared Sledge would slip well beyond claw to Q3/Q4 '03.

>This will snuff any ideas you had about running x86-64 on
>the desktop.

It will delay those ideas until somewhere H2 2003, but we already knew that.

>AMD still having problems getting the 2400+ out the door.
>2200+ is still the highest CPU readily available from AMD

Depends what you call "available from AMD". As an end user, buying just the cpu from a local dealer, yes. OEMs are getting moderatly decent supplies of 2400+ and 2600+ though.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
October 17, 2002 8:41:21 PM

Look Fugger, I know you'd expect me to just defend AMD (you and Melty seem to have this view on me since my registration here), but I am with you on this one, it's not AMD's turn and won't be for a long time.

It really does feel now like the K6 days. AMD will be a silent non-competitory company providing mid to lower end CPUs for OEMs. Will enthusiasts still buy? Doubtful, a small minority will, and the fanboys, but I expect AMD to be out of our minds for some time. Next year, in the second half, they have their chance to try to break in, I mean their server Opteron will likely do some success, and although it'd be stupid to judge the performance by the Spec tests, the fact it beat down an Itanium 2 in one, leaves some optimistic ideas about its server possibilities and opportunities. AMD will have to drift from desktop customers for a while, remain silent and hope Opteron is successful. If so, the cash will come in more since it's expensive, and that just might be what they need to strike back into the desktop world.

Until then, I won't really say much about AMD, to be honest, their name is becoming more background.

--
What made you choose your THG Community username/nickname? <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/community/modules.php?na..." target="_new">Tell here!</A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 10/17/02 04:46 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 17, 2002 8:46:14 PM

Itainium 2 was at 1ghz, hammer was at 2ghz. I say the Itainium faired very well dont you???

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
October 17, 2002 8:48:12 PM

It is IA64, it's another thing.
Wow, suddenly YOU are trying to discuss MHZ vs MHZ, spuddy, how smart.

It's the end performance that matters, and as I said, it's not to sound stupid but to show optimism.

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October 17, 2002 8:52:17 PM

Discussing??? No i was mearly pointing out the core frequency differences of the two platforms.

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
October 17, 2002 8:59:44 PM

...which with any smart and open-minded person here would know, MHZ means squat in benchmarks, it's only for the uneducated masses that it matters.

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October 17, 2002 9:07:24 PM

2600+'s? where??

Link please.

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
October 17, 2002 9:09:45 PM

Quote:
<i>Eden says:</i>
the fact it beat down an Itanium 2 in one


I haven't seen that. Got a link handy?

Quote:
<i>spuddy says:</i>
Itainium 2 was at 1ghz, hammer was at 2ghz.


Bloddy hell, people still haven't learned that clockspeed doesn't mean anything?

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
October 17, 2002 9:12:35 PM

THG and HardOCP had Spec Bench graphs, go check there, otherwise there is a thread in here recently, by Kelledin. Keep in mind I said ONE test of the tests (2).

And yeah, that was my point on the clock speed thing.

--
What made you choose your THG Community username/nickname? <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/community/modules.php?na..." target="_new">Tell here!</A>
October 17, 2002 9:13:59 PM

It matters for those tests though. Faster the cpu speed the "in most cases" faster instructions can be dealt with. And being the tests they used rely on fpu calc's and integer calcs. Which speed is a determining factor that cant be ignored.

If it wasnt they why use the 2.8 why not use a 1.6 or a 2.53 or a 3.06 ht enabled bad boy.

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
October 17, 2002 9:42:25 PM

I'd be more worried about "Bye Bye AMD..."

As I posted in another forum yesterday:

<A HREF="http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,..." target="_new">AMD 3rd quarter financial results</A>
"AMD (NYSE:AMD) today reported sales of $508,227,000 and a net loss of $254,171,000, for the quarter ended September 29, 2002."
"Third quarter sales declined by 34 percent from the third quarter of 2001 and by 15 percent from the second quarter of 2002."
"Excluding the effects of restructuring and other special charges, the 2001 third quarter loss was $97,424,000, or $0.28 per share."
“PC processor sales of $262 million for the quarter declined by 31 percent from the $380 million reported in the second quarter of 2002."
"AMD memory sales of $189 million were up 8 percent from the $175 million in the second quarter of 2002. For the second quarter in a row, AMD Flash memory bit shipments reached an all-time record level."

<A HREF="http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/2002101..." target="_new">intel 3rd quarter financial results</A>
"Intel Corporation today announced third-quarter revenue of $6.5 billion, up 3 percent sequentially and flat year-over-year."
"Third-quarter net income was $686 million, up 54 percent sequentially and up 547 percent year-over-year."
"Third-quarter net income excluding acquisition-related costs1 of approximately $108 million was $768 million, up 24 percent sequentially and up 17 percent year-over-year."
"Intel Architecture microprocessor unit shipments were higher.
Chipset unit shipments were higher.
Motherboard unit shipments were approximately flat.
Flash memory unit shipments were higher.
Ethernet connectivity product unit shipments were higher."

By the time the Clawhammer (0.13, 256k L2, DDR I) comes out it'll be competing agaist the Prescott (0.09, 1024k L2, 4x166FSB, DDR II) and Madison. Forget the benchmarks against McKinley (Itanium II) and Northwood Xeon 2.8 chips and start looking for Prescott, Madison (IA64 Itanium III), and Deerfield (IA64 "celeron") benchmarks.

edit:
And I'm sure <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q4/021017/index..." target="_new">VIA and AOpen are thrilled now that they have a board that's useless for the next 10 months</A>.

- JW


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by JCLW on 10/17/02 05:50 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 17, 2002 10:03:30 PM

I checked both sites and didn't find anything.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
October 17, 2002 10:36:03 PM

Intel could choose now to slow down their speed updates, and leave the pricing structure almost the same as it is now, for months. This would allow them to make more money in the short term. But I doubt they are too lame to do that just yet. I think they will keep the power race going until they have a very large lead on AMD, to increase pressure on AMD at the release of the hammers. In other words, to minimize the impact of the hammers on the sales of P4's.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 17, 2002 10:42:37 PM

intel will have a lower yild on higher modele no need a paper launch.3 ghz it good and cannot be beat be any K7 so why rush something just get sure that you dont got much delay on Presscott maybe even wait to have a very good yield on 0.09.

Now what to do??
October 17, 2002 10:55:18 PM

Yeah, since the Claw isn't gonna be out til 2H03, there's no need to rush the Prescott at all. As you said getting higher yeilds will be really good for their profit margins and squeeze AMD even more.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
a b à CPUs
October 17, 2002 11:42:38 PM

I don't know how to respond to that.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 17, 2002 11:53:10 PM

Why not?

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
a b à CPUs
October 18, 2002 12:02:26 AM

I don't speak Franglais. I speak a little french. I speak more english. I speak a lot of [-peep-]. But I don't speak Franglais. So I really didn't get anything enlightening or argumentative from juins comment. To which you responded.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 18, 2002 12:17:12 AM

It sounds to me like AMD is losing faith in the clawhammer's capabilities.

Quote from above article: "In place of Clawhammer, executives said, AMD's 2003 PC desktop and mobile offerings will largely be driven by Barton, the delayed followon to the Athlon XP. Neither Ruiz nor Herb said the Clawhammer was going to be delayed, per se, but they gave a strong indication that if the Clawhammer is introduced, it may be only in the limited quantities that have of late accompanied AMD product launches."

I haven't read much about Barton, how is it likely going to compare to Prescott in the event Clawhammer doesn't perform well?
October 18, 2002 1:20:56 AM

I speak English and I'm taking French in school at the moment, so I can speak of bit of Franglais...

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 18, 2002 1:22:48 AM

Barton will probably do as well vs. a high end P4 as the current Athlons are doing - not so well. First off, they can't match the performance, even with the paper launch products and by the time they actually come out, Intel's on with their next 2 product retail launches..

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 18, 2002 1:24:49 AM

Did anybody even read my comments in my first reply on this post?
THIS is what AMD will become, for a while.
I've learned after today, to let go of it.

Besides, this is the first time we've gotten more than 3 Hammer news in a WEEK, so be happy there's something stirring the forums!

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
October 18, 2002 1:36:49 AM

I should mention that while the Opteron SpecInt scores did surpass that of Itanium 2 at 1 GHz, so does a P4 2.8 GHz. Itanium and its successor were never very good at integer performance, merely decent. It's FP that is what it's a powerhouse in.
A P4 at 2.8 GHz gets somewhere around 970 in SpecInt I think, the Opteron's was 1100 or so.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
Anonymous
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October 18, 2002 1:49:50 AM

Oh well. No normal people would have use for apps that benefit from x86-64 anyways. I wish they would quit screwing around and give us some good FSB speed or something.
October 18, 2002 1:59:37 AM

The motherboard article worries me. I thought they integrated the NB on the die?!
Now we're back to FSB?!

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 18, 2002 2:11:18 AM

Maybe the references to the FSB speed really mean CPU-memory bus speed, and maybe there are still a couple of former northbridge functions in need of a chip.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 18, 2002 2:13:37 AM

yo! nice name!
October 18, 2002 2:32:35 AM

thanks, I did a double-take when I saw yours. LOL
October 18, 2002 2:54:19 AM

Hmm but then that makes you wonder, is AMD pushing for a future 200MHZ FSB with DDR400?
Would definitly not be bad, Hammer will be much more memory intensive (look at Opteron Sledge and its Dual Channel) and that could provide a sizeable boost over 166MHZ FSB.

For the picky ones like shadowbaby, he was complaining why they don't say 533MTs/sec than 533MHZ, well now they did for Hypertransport, according to those chipset map pics.

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
October 18, 2002 3:03:15 AM

The AMD decision to focus on the server market seems very smart to me with the current state of the economy/market. Most people really don't need a whole lot more out of their desktop systems right now that what they can already get, but there is still demand for faster and faster servers. When a business or organization buys all new servers, they like to stick with them for a while, not upgrade/replace them every month like pc enthusiasts. However, though I think it is best for amd, I'm not going to be buying any servers in the near future, so I am quite dissapointed in their slacking off on Claw. I may end up in the intel camp after all...(at least for a while in the next 6 months~year.) All of this said, the most common system I build for someone is a 1~1.3 duron based rig. The sad truth is, that's all most people need, and want to pay for in a computer these days. AMD is still the best way to go in the low-mid range market.

<font color=blue> If it ain't broke, don't fix it...tweak it.</font color=blue>
October 18, 2002 3:19:48 AM

I agree with what you are saying, but how is the public going to respond to another clawhammer slip? I think AMD should be worried about this with all the bad press they have received lately about paper launches and launch dates being pushed out. Their reputation is slipping rapidly and I see this making it worse. The only way they can prevent losing market share is to have a competitive product that the public can actually get their hands on and focusing on the server market will not get this done.
October 18, 2002 3:23:40 AM

thats just the thing...AMD is sort of dropping out, essentially dropping enthusiasts and those who want "the best of the best" for their PC. However, like I mentioned, their lower priced procs are ideal for low to mid range systems. However, I do agree that the paper launches are just pathetic.

<font color=blue> If it ain't broke, don't fix it...tweak it.</font color=blue>
October 18, 2002 3:39:34 AM

Low and midrange systems will continue to drop in sales also if the high end desktops cant compete. Think about it, the low and midrange pentiums not to mention celerons are quite competitively priced with AMD right now. What will happen in the consumer's mind when they are shopping for one of these computers? They will see Intel clearly dominating AMD on the high end systems and will naturally assume low and midrange Intel products are better. What benefit would it be to buy a computer with lower performance for approximately the same price.
October 18, 2002 12:21:05 PM

One think I noticed... Didn't AMD discontinue the lower end models like the XP1600+? Yet they seem to be everywhere and it's not just left over inventory either, cause they're making new stepping ones.

When Intel cut the 1.6A, it seemed to almost immediately disappear.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 18, 2002 12:48:50 PM

I don't usually trust The Inquirer, but they came out with a nice tidbit I think.

<A HREF="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5839" target="_new">Here</A>

If this goes by the usual ratings, it'll be vs. a t-bird, but seriously now, when they're selling to the *uninformed* customer, it'll be basically compared to a P4 clock speed. Now if this means anything, the first ClawHammer will be 3000+, which mean it'll be basically like a P4 3.06GHz... <i><b>BUT</i></b> Hammer is now expected to be out in mass in 2H03 (as stated by an AMD official), whereas the P4 3.06 will be here this November. By 2H03, I'm sure we'll see Prescott 3.2+GHz, which doesn't look good for AMD.

Just some more of my thoughts.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 19, 2002 2:17:37 AM

Link content is not showing!

Also what the heck does DT stand for?
I kind of like that nomenclature, feels like a car model or something!

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
October 19, 2002 2:52:57 AM

it was there last night....blank now...strange....oh well.

<font color=blue> If it ain't broke, don't fix it...tweak it.</font color=blue>
October 19, 2002 2:56:21 AM

I recall when they go blank it's due to that it was unconfirmed news that was confirmed to be a hoax.

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
October 19, 2002 3:08:41 AM

The whole site is down. At least the information is missing...

Complicated proofs are proofs of confusion.
October 19, 2002 10:49:28 PM

It seems like it's back:

Quote:
Clawhammer nomenclature, PR rating revealed

By Paul Hales: Friday 18 October 2002, 13:15


THE CLAWHAMMER ATHLON still due in Q1 2003 will be called the Athlon DT, according to documents seen by the INQUIRER.
Indeed, you can see them too, by wibbling over to Tom's Hardware guide to what they say is the very first motherboard for the chip, sporting the VIA K8T400M chipset.

The eagle-eyed Frenchmen over at x86-secret.com spotted the details on an AMD roadmap posted on Tom's pages.

They've saved the roadmap here, just in case it suddenly disappears, they say.

According to the documentation, the 'Performance' chip in the Athlon range will be the Athlon DT 3000+, sporting the Clawhammer core.

This wil be the first Clawhammer Athlon to be released, the roadmap suggests.

Elsewhere in Tom's piece, we note it says the Athlon DT will run at a clock speed of 1.6GHz. µ

Most likely not true since it came from The Inquirer... :tongue:

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 19, 2002 11:16:05 PM

Not only this but either one of the two, Inquirer or THG, is stretching the truth: THG claims the XP3200+ is 1.6GHZ while here it says DT 3000+ at 1.6GHZ. (frankly I think both are, it's absurd to have such a rating at 1.6GHZ if the 2GHZ Opteron tests showed fairly close performance against the 2.8GHZ) Also I don't see where your "compared to Tbird" claim you said earlier is.

One thing that's odd, is VIA's use of 400 in their chipset. Makes you wonder if they are not expecting a 400MHZ Bus as well since DDR400 isn't officially supported, so why would they create more than 3 chipsets with 400 in them!

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 10/19/02 07:17 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 19, 2002 11:20:23 PM

All I'm saying is that the AlthonXPs are usually compared to P4s so if Hammer is released at XP3000+ and released in 2H03, Intel'll have their Prescott at 3.2GHz+ and that wouldn't be so great for AMD.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 19, 2002 11:29:40 PM

But I also say that AMD is not gonna care much for CH and Desktop market competition for now. They really are determined to push into the server market. And if they succeed, the desktop market will be easier to tackle, with more money to spend, more R&D and some money aside for perhaps a rare one: TV commercials.

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
October 19, 2002 11:38:47 PM

LOL... I have never seen an AMD TV commercial, although I've heard they've had ones before.

I agree with you that the desktop will be easier to tackle after gaining some share in the server maket, but the desktop market is a bigger market (isn't it?) and even the higher margins in servers may not negate the money they're losing in the desktop market.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 20, 2002 12:00:04 AM

If AMD cannot keep up the competition of the desktop market, nor want to stop competing there, why not HALT it?
They aren't off, they will simply not focus on it. It's a "I don't give a hoot" attitude towards Intel, so competition will not be much evident, therefore complying to my prediction's results.

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
October 20, 2002 12:03:03 AM

Halt it? In what way? Stop producing chips destined for desktop systems and let Intel win nearly 100% market share. After a while it'll be even tougher for AMD to re-enter that market.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 20, 2002 12:07:02 AM

Keep forgetting that their are other competitors in the server market not just Intel and AMD. Just like Intel is haveing a bitch'n time getting a foot hold in high end servers AMD will face the same problem but with some bags as well. AMD's previous image as second rate will follow the company for years to come. The corporate sector isnt soo forgiveing as the cluesless desktop market (no offence to current parties). Food for thought buddy also dont rule the Prescott out. The biggest baddest CPU manufacture in the world isnt going to notice a bad ass CPU like this and will most likely have something to deal with it.

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
!