Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

CPU Choice.. not another arguement

Tags:
Last response: in CPUs
Share
October 20, 2002 10:54:01 AM

hi all!
im in need of some assestance and so i came here to see what anyone or someone would recommend to me..
i have a lovely setup and its working perfectly.
i have a ati 9700 pro, a xp1800. 512mbs ddr ram, kr7 motherboard, 80 gigs hd (ibm drive) and liteon dvd and a cdr burner..
now i know for a fact that the xp1800 is holding back the ati card, by a long shot so what im going at ask has probably been asked before, but i just want to know people opinions on it..
now id love to get the most from this execellent graphics card, but how do i do it? what do i upgrade to? this is where the intel or amd route comes in, but like i did with the graphics card i have, i want to make it a big step up, rather than just a little one. i had a geforce 2 ultra before this card, so you can see what sort of jump im on about..
i do like the xp chips, but having a few go on me, im a little bit weary of buying a brand new chip and having it go as soon as i put it in the motherboard as the heatsinks not on it properly..
now i have been considering water cooling for this (mad or just over the top???) but then i would like to consider holding out for the two new cpus from intel and amd and seeing which one is the best.
id like to be able to over clock it like the intel 4 1.6 and 1.8ghz northwood cpus, but i know its a rather limiting on amd xp chips, so this is why i havent bothered with overclocking on my current 1800 chip. and its why i havent bought an intel cpu because of the cost of them anyway. but im willing to try it should the newer cpus be better than the older one or whatever..
so what would people recommend? i have just had a thought about having a twin cpu system, but how would that work with the ati card? would it be better than having a 3ghz intel or amd chip (just for arguements sake) or is it worth considering the dual cpu aspect?
also i do have a adaptec 29160lp scsi adaptor card, which is a 64bit pci card, now does the performance degrade as at the moment im only using a 32bit pci slot or does it stay the same? im asking this as id like to get a newer faster bigger drive than what i have at the minute, so it would be nice to know! (i have posted a question in the hard drive section..)
so, could someone please help me out here!! i buying my hardware from

www.microdirect.co.uk

and so this is the choice i have..
if someone could recommend me a setup, i would be mostly appreatied.
thank you to anyone how replys to this rather long post!! sorry for the bore!! i look forward to the replies! thanks once again!

if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...

More about : cpu choice arguement

October 20, 2002 12:55:38 PM

AMD's still got some products out and around. For example, The XP2400+ are starting to creep into many stores. Now I see that microdirect does not yet carry the XP2400+, but they may soon. Getting an Intel setup would make you buy a new CPU and motherboard and possibly RAM. IIRC you have PC2100 RAM and that wouldn't be exactly good for the P4's need for bandwidth. For an XP2400+, all you need is the CPU, although you may wanna find out if your motherboard supports that processor.

Now if you do plan to go Intel, this is what I'd suggest.

P4 2.4GHz 533MHz FSB - 164.50 inc VAT
Motherboard - You may want to wait til microdirect gets some 845PE chipset motherboards
512MB PC2700/3200 DDR RAM - 97.53/128.08 inc VAT

Now that CPU is probably has the best price/performance ratio in the high-end area. You could go higher, but the price increases don't justify the performance increases.

RDRAM in the UK is really expensive. Even more than PC3200 so go for DDR.

Other than that, I'm not sure what to say, I don't know much about dual CPU systems or SCSI.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 20, 2002 1:17:58 PM

what would this do to the performance of the graphics card?
i would just buy rd ram anyway, if its best then thats what i would have.. its a case for me to do something right, do it 101% right..
how far would i be able to overclock the cpu and would it be worth to overclock the cpu?
i need some help on this..!!

if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
Related resources
October 20, 2002 1:22:54 PM

RDRAM mobos aren't all that great for overclocking. And if you're gonna get RDRAM, get the PC1066 cause PC800 performs near DDR333. I've got the 2.4B and I've gotten to 2.84GHz at 1.6V with a stock Intel HSF.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 20, 2002 1:32:42 PM

how do you overclock an intel cpu? just up the front side bus or what?
what sort of fans are needed to cool the cpu down properly? or more efficently?
what sort of memory would be best to get for the intel board then? ddr 333 or ddr 400?

if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
October 20, 2002 1:57:52 PM

2 very goof heatsinks for the S478s are the Alpha PAL8092 and the Swiftech MCX4000.

You can put any 80mm fan on it IIRC. If you don't want too loud, go for a 35dBa or less fan.

The absolute best RAM for the P4 at the moment is the PC1066 RDRAM but it's quite expensive. After that, DDR400 would probably be best, but only if you overclock.

You cannot unlock a P4. You can only overclock by raising the FSB.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 20, 2002 2:08:28 PM

i think if i got a p4 setup i would undoubtably overclock it! i just think its the way to go..
im not so bothered about noisy as i have about 4 fans in my system as it is!! but it being quieter would be nice..
with regards to the overclocking, what would be the best board/cpu to get? i feel that the ddr 400 would be the best ram to get, judging on what you are saying..
what motherboard would you recommend?
you are good at this!!

if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
October 20, 2002 5:24:10 PM

The only boards that can use DDR400 are the SiS648 mobos. In reviews, it doesn't seem they overclock all that well. The next best would be the 845PE, which support DDR333, but with overclocking, you should get some DDR400. The 845PE seem to overclock like 845E so very well.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 20, 2002 9:00:36 PM

a little while ago i had some fun with my girl friends sons pc.. i had recently put a kg7 @ xp1800 in it and to my horror i had managed to cut the fan wire when i was putting in some memory to test it out..
sadly i didnt realise it for some time, but to my amazement, the cpu seems to be working fine and there are no problems at all.
i other reason for posting this, is that i have just managed to overclock my cpu from 133fsb to 142fsb and my scores seemed to have increased rather a lot.. i was just wondering if someone could help me out a bit here..
my girl friends system and her sons, seem to hit 150fsb with no problems at all, but i cant seem to get there.. i was wondering if someone could help me find out why..
they have the same board as each other, kg7 with the same cpu, xp1800 and the same graphics card (should that make a difference) a geforce 3 ti200.. now how cant i hit 150fsb, as they can? i have a kr7, xp1800 and the ati 9700 pro, but it just dont want to know past 143fsb... any ideas anyone?


if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
October 20, 2002 9:03:27 PM

When overclocking, nothing's guaranteed. They may have just gotten a better CPU than you did. There's no way really to predict except to make measured estimations with core stepping and such. Maybe some night, bring your CPU and put it in his comp and take his and put it in yours... :lol: 

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 20, 2002 9:10:39 PM

well i aint going to do that after what happened with his cpu fan!! god knows what could happen if i swapped over the cpus!!
im not that bothered to be honest, but i was just so hoping i could have done it on my machine, after all, i play games on my machine not theirs!!
never mind, i will just have to wait and see what the xp2800 or xp3000 comes out and is like.. or it could possibly be worth a complete change, since memory and motherboard i wouldnt have thought would support 166fsb.. well, to a point anyway..




if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
a b à CPUs
October 20, 2002 9:29:51 PM

Let me see, most i850E boards are limited to 150MHz FSB. Kingston 128MB PC1066 does 150MHz bus too, making it run at "PC1200" speed. So the limit of most boards is also the limit of the memory.

This is great potential for overclocking a "400 bus" CPU, but only moderate overclocking for a "533 bus" CPU.

Aopen makes some i850E boards that support much higher bus speeds, 248MHz I believe. But you would have to reduce your memory multiplier in order to run anything over 150MHz bus.

Only slightly slower is the SiS 648 with DDR400. But the only good board with that chipset, the GA-8SG667, is a fairly stripped board. If you want a full featured DDR board, you'll want to go with the even (slightly) lower performance i845PE chipset.

If the 8SG667 is 5% slower than the 8IHXP, the 8PE667 would be 6% slower than the 8IHXP.

So your best performance full-featured board at 150MHz bus would be with the 8IHXP packed with 128MB Kingston PC1066 modules running at 4x (RDRAM also uses DDR technology. hence 533MHz RDRAM called PC1066).

But once you go past 150MHz FSB, you'll have to run the RDRAM at something lower, say 3x the bus speed. That would require you to get to 174MHz FSB to run the ram at stock PC1066 speed. Which would still be a great option with the Aopen boards, but maybe you wouldn't like the Aopen boards? The 8IHXP would never reach 174MHz because its clock generator won't allow it.

So remember the features you want. RDRAM will be the best performance option from 133MHz to 150MHz and from 174MHz to 196MHz, but the only boards that will let you get bus speed beyond ~150MHz are the Aopen boards, if you don't like those (based on features), and need high bus speeds, I suggest you bite the bullet on performance and go with slower i845PE boards. Because at a certain point, the higher bus speeds allowed by these boards will more than offset the performance decrease of DDR.

A list of things to consider:

1.) RDRAM has the best performance, but most boards limited to 150MHz bus speed, except Aopen. This may not be a problem if you don't need to go >150MHz bus or if you like the Aopen board.
2.) Features. i850E and i845PE boards have the best features.
3.) Price. Is money a problem for you?

I planned on a mid-budget system with a 1.8A at 2.4GHz-2.7GHz (133-150MHz bus speed), which would make the GA-8IHXP an ideal candidate with 2 Kingston PC1066 128MB. I don't need more RAM.

Other people need more RAM, in which case 512MB of PC2700 is much cheaper of course than 4 of the RDRAM modules I had chosen. Cheap enough in fact that for the cost difference they could get a faster processor to offset the performance difference!

If you don't need or want a bunch of special features on your board, the GA-8SG667 is your best value. But if you are interested in top performance regardless of value, read above.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Crashman on 10/20/02 06:06 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 20, 2002 9:55:09 PM

I think you mean IHXP, the IGXP is a non board.

Kingston PC1066 32ns RDRAM may be hard to acquire in the UK.

Other than that, I agree with you, although the 8SG667 doesn't seem to overclock all that well, just like all other SiS648 chipset mobos.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
a b à CPUs
October 20, 2002 10:03:28 PM

Damnit, you're right, now I gotta fix that post all over the place.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 20, 2002 10:33:26 PM

LOL...

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 21, 2002 9:47:24 PM

im thinking of sticking with amd but is this the better route to travel? i have my eyes on nforce 2 and the new xp2800 cpus.. or better, but what is the better value for money and what is the best thing that i can do..?
overclocking an intel chip would be great.. saying that i have a 3.x ghz chip would be fantasic, but would it really make a huge difference as to what i have now with my graphics card? (im not going to want to sell that one for a while me thinks..)
i would like to see the sort of boost that i had from my old graphics card (g2 ultra) to what i have now (9700 pro)... is that sort of jump possible with cpus?
i must admit i am rather limited to what i know about both chip sets.. the people that i talk to about cpus they say that amd are the best.. but then i come here and there are different opinions.. i have always thought that for value for money amd where the best.. but when overclocking came into it, especially now, intel seem to have amd by the balls.. (so to speak..) although i do find some tests amazing that an 1.4ghz amd chip can beat a 3.6ghz intel chip (well, you know what i mean..)
i do feel that intel are more geared towards any application thrown at it as amd arent... they lack the sse2 and this new hyper threading thing thats meant to be coming out..
what is a guy to do with all this choice? i have money to spend, but i want to see a decent amount of performance for my money.. i expect if i bought amd i would be still wanting intel and vise versa..
a thing about the motherboards i have only really used abit boards and i have had nothing but joy when using them.. they are very tweakable and i havent regreted buying any of them (i have had a kt7, kg7 and now a kr7..) the only thing that i lack really i guess is a good memory bandwidth and a lot of mhz (although it dont make a huge amount of difference, in somethings it does.., as do sse2...)
i look forward to some replies on this one..
thanks again for all the imput.. my brain is hurting looking at it all!!

if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
a b à CPUs
October 21, 2002 10:34:11 PM

The guys who claim AMD still makes the fastest CPU's are biased. In fact they are lying. Purposely. Because they hate Intel, and all the Intel stands for. They don't realize that AMD would stand for the same things if the roles were reversed. And even if they know this intelectually, they let their bias take over and deny it.

They usually say things like AMD is a better value as well. I'm here to tell you that the best value in a CPU is the P4 2.4GHz CPU, it only cost $188 at Googlegear.com (check pricewatch for more venders). With a retail heatsink, in a retail box, with a retail 3-year warranty.

Check Toms latest review (including his "previews" of various unreleased speeds if you like). If you're too lazy to read the reviews, I can understand where such assholes would confuse you.

The best value in a motherboard is the Gigabyte GA-8SG667 for under $100, again check pricewatch. This is the highest performing DDR board you can buy, at stock speeds. I'm sure Fugger will chime in about some Abit board outperforming it at ultra high overclocks, but until then, this is it. The GA-8SG667 is also the only P4 board to properly support DDR400 and AGP8x, the second part really isn't that important though, except that other AGP8x boards are destablizing when used with your video card.

For well under $300, you can have a ultra fast board and processor. The 2.4GHz/533 processor should overclock to 3.0GHz/166.6 bus quite easily. And with this overclock, the 4:5 memory ratio gets you to DDR416 memory speed, an easy stretch for Corsair PC3200. And roughly the max memory speed for that board. Dropping the memory multiplier to 1:1 would allow you to get 200MHz FSB! but at 3600MHz, not a likely overclock!

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 21, 2002 11:00:27 PM

that may be the best choice right now. but what is the best choice for the future? will that board be supporting the latest and greatest cpus to come?

It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
October 21, 2002 11:03:40 PM

firstly, im not sure which way to be taking your advice, but as i give everyone i talk to, meet in person or what have you a chance, i feel you deserve that chance too.. by the way, who are you calling an [-peep-]????
this is what im going on by being told..
i have no idea, as like i have said, i dont have intel experience..
i use amd mainly for price to performance, as over in the uk, things are little more expensive than i think most people like..
i aim going to give this intel route a chance and see what happens when it comes to gaming performance.. although prices are a little higher than i like to pay (it reminds me of amiga hardware having to pay 10x the amount that you should need to.. but its not really the same thing..) i take in what i get told because when it comes to certain things, i admittedly dont know a lot about the things that i would perhaps like to know about.. mainly because i want to know about the cpu memory motherboard style at the mo, i feel the intel side of things gets in a little deeper than my little brain can understand.. (well, so i keep telling myself..)
i have been reading reviews and this is where it gets just slightly confusing for me.. theres a lot of different memory types and everything under the sun for intel, amds are slightly more limited..

ok, say i went the intel route, say i overclocked the cpu and actually got 166fsb or as a laugh 200fsb.. what would the performance be like? some results i see a 1.4ghz xp can out perform a 3ghz intel, and obvously, vise versa.. as i just mainly use my pc for gaming, video editing (every now and again) i need something quick.. im also told to go for the newer intel chips, the c1 models???? are these better models or am i being told wrong?
please help, cos i think my ati 9700 pro is starting to get bored in my amd xp system.. plus i think it needs to stretch its legs a little more..
what you think the performance figures would be like? im hitting about 12600 at the mo in 3dmark 2001 se.. thats with a xp1800, 140fsb, kr7, 512 mbs ram etc etc..
oh, and whats your feelings on scsi drives?
thanks (i think) for the help and guidence.. oh and one last thing, i never said i hated intel.. i just dont know enough about them to make a good enough desision.. i feel that is a fair comment, dont you?


if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
a b à CPUs
October 21, 2002 11:06:26 PM

P4 will be around for a while in socket478. If you really want to be sure your board will support Hyperthreading, I suggest an i845PE board. I think the i850E supports it as well.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 21, 2002 11:09:55 PM

in some ways I would love to have an intel setup but I can't afford to switch from my asus a7v333 now. someone is asking me to look into building them a pc. they are willing to spend about 2k (everything including monitor, mouse, keyboard, etc) and I am having a tough time deciding what the best path is so that they can upgrade their system the most in the future.

It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
a b à CPUs
October 21, 2002 11:14:30 PM

As for namecalling, I do that sometimes when people are trying to misinform others. A lot of people do it. There's an [-peep-] at my local PC store who will swear on the Bible a T-Bird 1400 with PC133 will outperform ANY P4 with RDRAM. Of course his AMD stuff is marked up by a slightly higher margin...

Anyway, look at Tom's benchmarks. Tom actually quit righting these types of articles in part because of a run in with the Intel corp, and another with the Rambus corp. But he still has to rubber stamp the articles as far as I know. These articles show the XP rating system holding up to Intel's MHz up to about 2400MHz, after which things get really screwy, the AMD winning some benches by moderate amounts and loosing others by major landslides. Go ahead, check them.

Then look at the prices, right now the 2.4 cost less than a 2400+ (but it's close). And it overclocks better.



<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
October 21, 2002 11:17:22 PM

Oh, at say, 3000MHz, I'll take a guess that your score will improve to around 14,000. Maybe a bit more. That particular benchmark is more graphics card than CPU dependant, except for extremely slow CPU's.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
October 21, 2002 11:21:43 PM

Socket 478 will live for at least 1.5 years, Socket 462 will probably live less than half that long. Or look at it this way:

Socket 478 should support CPU's up to something like 4.6GHz. The last CPU for the Socket 462 might just be the XP2800+ (I've heard something like 3300+ as a possibility).

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 22, 2002 12:10:34 AM

socket 462 - xp2800+??? isn't the xp2800+ socket A?

It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
October 22, 2002 12:27:13 AM

Socket A = Socket 462.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 22, 2002 12:28:21 AM

Socket 478 is gonna be used for Prescott I assume then. I don't think NW are gonna get up to 4.6GHz with reasonable yeilds, or without improving the core.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 22, 2002 12:42:16 AM

once you get up to 4Ghz isn't 533 or 400 fsb kind of weak? I mean yeah you can put the chip on there but would it be worth it to buy it in the first place in this sort of situation?

It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
October 22, 2002 12:50:15 AM

That's why Prescott will use 667MHz (166MHz QP)

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
October 22, 2002 1:25:32 AM

so in order to get this quad pumped action you need to get a new mobo? if this is the case you may as well buy whatever now b/c you are buying a new mobo AND chip later.

It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
a b à CPUs
October 22, 2002 4:21:51 AM

I hear various things, but that probably would be an early Prescott, just like we have 400MHz bus Northwoods.

You'll have to refresh my memory, are all 90nm "P4" cores Prescott?

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 23, 2002 1:55:18 AM

I recall rumors of possibilities of backwards compatibility with Prescotts with 533MHZ FSB. It would make sense for the lower end 3.2GHZ versions, and for mobo compatibility.
Then there's the high end 667MHZ FSB. 800MHZ is far from there, sadly because not even Rambus is ready PC1600 for next year, and DDR400, well there are doubts.

--
"Let Go." -Avril Lavigne
October 23, 2002 10:09:09 PM

well, i must admit after reading all the posts and trying to get somewhere with intel side of things, im quite interested in buying one, but the only thing is i will wait till next year and see what happens..
i would like to stick with amd really, but having said that, intel 4s are cheaper and they do overclock, but then i do have to buy all new gear, rather than just a new cpu... which does make it a bit more of a problem for me..
just could you please tell me two or three top intel 4 motherboards that would be best to use for the cpu i want to get, and what cpus (speeds too if poss) and memory (makes etc..)
i get my stuff from here

www.microdirect.co.uk

could you tell me whether or not they do the stuff that you recommend (including fan for cpu, is that needed the same way as for amd? lots of power etc..?) and then i will see what happens.. with amd and all the pricing.. although i would really have to upgrade the amd board i have and probably the memory too, so it makes little difference.. although would it make it a worth while performance jump? ie would it be anywhere near the geforce 2 ultra to ati 9700 pro type jump? this is what i call worth while.. could you give me more info?????
thanks ever so much for the help!

if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
a b à CPUs
October 23, 2002 10:31:59 PM

I wouldn't suggest anyone change platforms unless they need to. You already have a decent SocketA board, no?

Intel's stock coolers do a good job of cooling, due to good size and design, the fans are fairly quiet. Anyway, you should wait, you have a good platform. If you need a little more speed, buy a faster Socket A processor for your current platform.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
October 23, 2002 11:46:25 PM

I second what crashman said. Your current system works fine and is stable. Why bother with a considerably more expensive outlay of new ram, new board, new cpu etc.
Just get a XP2200+ or a XP2400+ that should be around by the end of the month (at least in my local shops)

<b>And if you gaze for long into Toms Hardware Forums, The Forum gazes also into you! :eek:  </b>
October 24, 2002 8:01:06 AM

i think i might do that!!
performance isnt that much of an issue.. its just the need for more speed i think!!
i do have a great motherboard, which i have got zero problems with and have had zero problems with... i have a abit kr7 133 board..
im not really bothered about upgrading as of yet anyway, but i will be when new cpus come out, as im looking for long term upgrades rather than two minutes, because this is faster for now..
like i said, i want something thats going to MAKE a BIG difference, rather than something thats going to be minimal..
like i said, i want to make a difference such as from my geforce 2 ultra to my ati 9700 pro... thats the difference im wanting to make...
oh, what about cooling for the higher up xp cpus? at the moment, i do just have a standard ish cooling setup, although i do have a hole in the side of my case with a fan near my graphics card which cools my setup to about 39 degrees when in the bios.. any particular fans that are best? i dont want to lose any more cpus because of crappy fan designs like i have done before..
thank you to you all for your help!

if all else fails... kick it and if it goes wrong, say it wasnt you...
October 24, 2002 10:57:11 AM

the stock cooler for the high ned cpu is fine, though u can allways get something fancy like a volcano 7+.

<b>And if you gaze for long into Toms Hardware Forums, The Forum gazes also into you! :eek:  </b>
!