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Good City Building Guides?

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August 5, 2005 2:04:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hi, a lurker here, hope you don't mind my dropping in.

I am running a campaign that will start in an urban setting and have
been looking for guides for city design. So far all I've had to work
with are what I've managed to pull from the DMG and DMGII (which was
remarkably less than I'd hoped) and the DMG City Building supplement
available at WotC's Web site. I've also found a Web page on "Medieval
City Demographics Made Easy" which was helpful.

However, while all of these were helpful in getting a general sense of
what should be in the city (but also included some rather obvious
stuff) all are relatively vague (you should have guilds! there should
be temples!) or specific in relatively useless ways (I don't need to
know exactly how many chandlers and carters live in the city).

What I _really_ would like are suggestions on how to draw city maps and
on physical city structure (not every nitty gritty detail, but things
that might be useful to the story or things that the PCs might ask,
where generally barracks would be built, what neighborhoods would be
connected with what, where one would put temples (poor neighborhoods or
rich neighborhoods; all together or scattered), where to place city
gates and how many, and things like that. Samples of City Maps would be
nice (they are actually relatively few and far between on the 'Net). I
want to draw my own map but some guidelines would be helpful (I've
tried to do my own, but I or my friends keep finding logistical
problems so I'd like some guidance).

Other stuff like sample NPCs and plot hooks would be nice as well,
although I pretty much plan on working those up myself.

I have heard of one book called "Cityworks" from Legends and Lairs, but
I don't know if it's still in print or if it's any good.

If anyone has any suggestions--either online or print resources--that
would be extremely helpful.

Thanks very much!

Death Quaker!
http://www.deathquaker.org
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 7:25:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:

> Hi, a lurker here, hope you don't mind my dropping in.
>
> I am running a campaign that will start in an urban setting and have
> been looking for guides for city design. So far all I've had to work
> with are what I've managed to pull from the DMG and DMGII (which was
> remarkably less than I'd hoped) and the DMG City Building supplement
> available at WotC's Web site. I've also found a Web page on "Medieval
> City Demographics Made Easy" which was helpful.
>
> However, while all of these were helpful in getting a general sense of
> what should be in the city (but also included some rather obvious
> stuff) all are relatively vague (you should have guilds! there should
> be temples!) or specific in relatively useless ways (I don't need to
> know exactly how many chandlers and carters live in the city).
>
> What I _really_ would like are suggestions on how to draw city maps and
> on physical city structure (not every nitty gritty detail, but things
> that might be useful to the story or things that the PCs might ask,
> where generally barracks would be built, what neighborhoods would be
> connected with what, where one would put temples (poor neighborhoods or
> rich neighborhoods; all together or scattered), where to place city
> gates and how many, and things like that. Samples of City Maps would be
> nice (they are actually relatively few and far between on the 'Net). I
> want to draw my own map but some guidelines would be helpful (I've
> tried to do my own, but I or my friends keep finding logistical
> problems so I'd like some guidance).
>
> Other stuff like sample NPCs and plot hooks would be nice as well,
> although I pretty much plan on working those up myself.
>
> I have heard of one book called "Cityworks" from Legends and Lairs, but
> I don't know if it's still in print or if it's any good.
>
> If anyone has any suggestions--either online or print resources--that
> would be extremely helpful.
>
> Thanks very much!
>
> Death Quaker!
> http://www.deathquaker.org
>

I very much suggest that you find reconstructions of medieval cities,
big and small. Maybe Roman, Greek, Egyptian, and Persian cities, too.
This will teach you more about cities than most rulebooks.

CH
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 11:03:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Let's see...

Fantastic site with high 17th c. dutch city maps:
http://grid.let.rug.nl/~welling/maps/blaeu.html

A Magical Medieval City Guide, Free .pdf Download from RPGNow.com
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1678...

Massive Map/Cartography Archive
http://www.geography.hunter.cuny.edu/mp/links.html

And I highly recommend Profantasy's products. They aren't cheap, but
they are very useful.
http://www.profantasy.com

Gilgamesh Rex
------------------------
My friend has died and half my heart is torn from me. Won't I soon be
like him, stone cold and dead for all the days to come?
Related resources
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 11:23:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> Hi, a lurker here, hope you don't mind my dropping in.
>
> I am running a campaign that will start in an urban setting and have
> been looking for guides for city design. So far all I've had to work
> with are what I've managed to pull from the DMG and DMGII (which was
> remarkably less than I'd hoped) and the DMG City Building supplement
> available at WotC's Web site. I've also found a Web page on "Medieval
> City Demographics Made Easy" which was helpful.
>

I recommend a trip to your local library to photocopy some maps. I
further recommend taking a look in the children's section. There are
very many super cool history books designed to make ancient studies fun,
and such produce excellent source material-- maps, cultural depictions,
and especially military descriptions.

I'm starting a campaign exploring ancient Vedic India, and children's
books provide me tons of good stuff.
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 3:09:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

You might also drop by www.profantasy.com . They have some excellent city
maps in their map library. You can download a free map viewer if you don't
already have Campaign Cartographer. By the way, the City Designer add-on
for that program can simplify the mapping process, if you're interested.
You might also try posting for advice on the CC2 list...there's a link on
the Profantasy website.

Good luck.
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 5:01:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> I am running a campaign that will start in an urban setting ...
>
> What I _really_ would like are suggestions on how to draw city maps and
> on physical city structure (not every nitty gritty detail, but things
> that might be useful to the story or things that the PCs might ask,
> where generally barracks would be built, what neighborhoods would be
> connected with what, where one would put temples (poor neighborhoods or
> rich neighborhoods; all together or scattered), where to place city
> gates and how many, and things like that. Samples of City Maps would be
> nice (they are actually relatively few and far between on the 'Net). I
> want to draw my own map but some guidelines would be helpful (I've
> tried to do my own, but I or my friends keep finding logistical
> problems so I'd like some guidance).

> If anyone has any suggestions--either online or print resources--that
> would be extremely helpful.

Cities... hmmm... let's see...

Cities are originally built at the location of;

1) Camps, campgrounds near good hunting grounds (hunter/gatherer)
or near campgrounds near fertile land (agricultural).
2) Convenient points along watercourses. (Transportation Hubs in
protected bays, estuaries, or where land trade routes meet water
trade routes.)
3) Convenient geographical locales (At the base of mountains, At
mountain passes, along the coast, on natural plains, near potable
water, etc.)
4) In areas with abundant natural resources. (Mines, Minerals,
Wood, Oil, Stone or other raw materiels)
5) In areas that are easily defended from attack (Hilltops,
riverbends, river forks, mountaintops, mountain passes, along
ridges, and in naturally sheltered areas [Caves & Caverns, or...
craters, canyonlands, or on the lee side of mountains where the
snowfall is less.)
6) On top of older smaller settlements, or ruins.
7) Religious or areas, or other areas with "Magical" or mystical
properties.

That being said, your city structure is first influenced by the
local geography or "lay of the land".


References;

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Course...
http://carnel.sdf-eu.org/carnel/City2.pdf
http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2669
http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/simcity/manual/history....
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=...

Re,
Dirk
August 6, 2005 12:25:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 5 Aug 2005 10:04:03 -0700, spam@deathquaker.org wrote:

>What I _really_ would like are suggestions on how to draw city maps and
>on physical city structure (not every nitty gritty detail, but things
>that might be useful to the story or things that the PCs might ask,
>where generally barracks would be built, what neighborhoods would be
>connected with what, where one would put temples (poor neighborhoods or
>rich neighborhoods; all together or scattered), where to place city
>gates and how many, and things like that. Samples of City Maps would be
>nice (they are actually relatively few and far between on the 'Net). I
>want to draw my own map but some guidelines would be helpful (I've
>tried to do my own, but I or my friends keep finding logistical
>problems so I'd like some guidance).
>
>Other stuff like sample NPCs and plot hooks would be nice as well,
>although I pretty much plan on working those up myself.
>
>I have heard of one book called "Cityworks" from Legends and Lairs, but
>I don't know if it's still in print or if it's any good.
>
>If anyone has any suggestions--either online or print resources--that
>would be extremely helpful.
>
>Thanks very much!
>
>Death Quaker!
>http://www.deathquaker.org

I can't really answer your question. I would follow the advice
of the other correspondents here and head for the library.

Once upon a time I used to collect fantasy cites but I gave up
15 years ago so I can only tell you what used to be not what is.

There have been a fair few of these made over the years and the
general quality is not that good. But...,

1) City State of the Invincible Overlord. I've never looked at
it but it comes from about the same time as Haven

2) City System (for Forgotten Realms); 1988; by TSR; for AD&D
1e.

Again lots of random encounter tables. A city called Waterdeep
with no real heart or soul; very shallow.

3) City Books; 1983-1990; Flying Buffolo; Generic but for AD&D
(mainly).

These 5 books are cookbooks for generic fantasy cities in
vanilla fantasy backgrounds. Each one takes on a specific type
of city (Port, etc.). Too generic; something like Minas Tirith
has far more atmosphere.

4) Tredroy; 1989; by SJ Games; Generic but for GURPs (mainly).

No encounter tables. The map is not fold-out but is on 2 sides
of the book. No floor-plans. The map is the worst thing about
this city; the streets are laid out geometrically. The place
names lack a fantasy atmosphere. It is supposed to be a city
like medieval Jerusalem or Alexandria; a city where there are
several distinct religious and ethnic communities.

5) The City of Greyhawk; 1989; TRS; for AD&D.

Large maps (4 of). 80 small scenarios on cards, 2 x 96 page
booklets. In terms of production this was good value but it's
not my idea of what a fantasy city would be like. The buildings
are too far apart (not crowded as in a real city) so it looks
like it is less than 100 or so years old but at the same time it
is supposed to have an 'Undercity'. Much better than the wooden
Waterdeep; but not my cup-of-tea.

6) Haven, Free City of; 1981; by GameLords; Generic but for AD&D
(mainly).

Very detailed. City plan but skimpy on actual building floor
plans. Production is basic (by today's standards). This may be
too detailed for you in some areas (NPCs) to skimpy on others
(floorplans). In 25 years the way FRPGs are played have changed
a bit.

7) Thieves World; 1981; by Chaosium; for 9 (yes 9) different
systems including AD&D 1e, D&D 1e.

Skimpy on the detail. City map, 2 maps of the 'Maze'. Hardly any
floorplans (building plans). Most of the book consists of the
random encounter tables which are some of the better tables
you'll find in an RPG product.

8) Minas Tirith; 1988; by ICE; for MERP.

This is a better all-round product. It has floor plans. It lacks
the random encounter tables and the descriptions are given over
to places rather than NPCs. In use you would find this to be
very specific to the world of MERP.

9) Shadows of Bogenhafen; 1987; by Games Workshop; for WFRP

I prefer this to most of the TSR cities I mentioned. But it is
really a scenario based in a town. Skimpy on the city details.

10) Lankhmar; 1989; TRS; for AD&D.

Along with the actual city module there are a host of
supplements for this city: 'Thieves of Lankhmar', 'Wonders of
Lankhmar'. There are 2 editions: for 2e and 1e AD&D. My favorite
of the early TSR cities.

11) Arkham Unveiled; 1990; Chaosium; for Call of Cthulhu.

Once more Chaosium come to the rescue showing them all how it
should be done. The problem with this fantasy city is that it
is, again, a large town and it is set in 1920s USA. But is has
NPCs, plots, scenarios, a big fold-out map, floor-plans, and a
town directory (so the GM can actually use it!). Makes you
wonder what the other city builders were thinking of (or not
thinking of). It's not the most atmospheric Chaosium module but
it's bloody useful for Call of Cthulhu or any other game set in
1920's USA.

Cities I would like to get:

1) Chaosium did a module for Stormbringer detailing the
Melniboneans. Because Melniboneans nearly all live in their city
of Imrryr, I'm guessing that this module must have quite a bit
of detail on the dreaming city.

2) The cities for WFRP look interesting. At least one Middenheim
should be worth buying.

As you can, few of the products I mentioned are heavy on the
floorplans and where they are (Arkham & Minas Tirith) they
aren't relevant to the type of city you want.
August 6, 2005 1:06:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I found a few maps of London in my local libraries when I
searched for them. Medieval London really consisted of the
environs enclosed by the old Roman walls - the so-called "City";
so any old map of london will have a similar street plans
because I believe, after the great fire most of London was
rebuilt (by the population) according to the old street plans.

I found plans of the following towns and cities on the web a
while ago. The vast majority of street-plans you find will be
later then medieval. I can't remember the URLs but these are the
places I found. With a little help from Google you should be
able to get the same plans.

Alkmaar
Amfoort
Amsterdam, 1544
Oxford (England) 1605
Palace Sargon, Turkey
Paris, 1738
Venice, various articles
Rome, 15th Century
St. Petersburg, 1731
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 1:07:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> Hi, a lurker here, hope you don't mind my dropping in.
>
> I am running a campaign that will start in an urban setting and have
> been looking for guides for city design. So far all I've had to work
> with are what I've managed to pull from the DMG and DMGII (which was
> remarkably less than I'd hoped) and the DMG City Building supplement
> available at WotC's Web site. I've also found a Web page on "Medieval
> City Demographics Made Easy" which was helpful.
>
> However, while all of these were helpful in getting a general sense of
> what should be in the city (but also included some rather obvious
> stuff) all are relatively vague (you should have guilds! there should
> be temples!) or specific in relatively useless ways (I don't need to
> know exactly how many chandlers and carters live in the city).
>
> What I _really_ would like are suggestions on how to draw city maps and
> on physical city structure (not every nitty gritty detail, but things
> that might be useful to the story or things that the PCs might ask,
> where generally barracks would be built, what neighborhoods would be
> connected with what, where one would put temples (poor neighborhoods or
> rich neighborhoods; all together or scattered), where to place city
> gates and how many, and things like that. Samples of City Maps would be
> nice (they are actually relatively few and far between on the 'Net). I
> want to draw my own map but some guidelines would be helpful (I've
> tried to do my own, but I or my friends keep finding logistical
> problems so I'd like some guidance).
>
> Other stuff like sample NPCs and plot hooks would be nice as well,
> although I pretty much plan on working those up myself.
>
> I have heard of one book called "Cityworks" from Legends and Lairs, but
> I don't know if it's still in print or if it's any good.
>
> If anyone has any suggestions--either online or print resources--that
> would be extremely helpful.
>
> Thanks very much!
>
> Death Quaker!
> http://www.deathquaker.org
>

One general work that gives you a good idea of why cities in RL grew the
way they did is
"An Atlas Of Rare City Maps: Comparative Urban Design, 1830-1842" by
Melville Branch.
You can pick up a used copy online for about 25 bucks and it's well
worth it, not only for
the many interesting maps but also for the information on the growth of
the cities based on
their peculiar geographies.

Another one that helps is "The History Of London In Maps" by Felix
Barker and Peter Jackson.
This one chronicles how London grew from its earliest days to the
present, and of special interest
is the section showing how the Great Fire changed much of the city's
layout by flattening old twisty
and congested streets, making straight line streets possible and thus
facilitating traffic movement
and more growth. 'Tis more expensive--the cheapest copy currently
online is about 43 dollars--but
it's got more maps from the time period you are interested in than the
first book I mentioned.
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 2:33:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Dirk Collins <dirk.collins@Earthlink.Net> writes

<snip>
>That being said, your city structure is first influenced by the local
>geography or "lay of the land".

This is the absolute major. Sketching out the local area surrounding
the city, complete with resources and terrain, will almost dictate the
lay and parameters defining the city. A city won't be a city unless it
can support itself, has a reason to grow (including some nicety or other
that makes people want to live there), and has the room to do it.

Retro-fitting resources to a city design can be done, but it's easier to
start with the basic necessities.

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 6:26:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Oberon wrote:
> On 5 Aug 2005 10:04:03 -0700, spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
>
<snip request for help drawing city maps, city structure, actual maps>
>
>> Other stuff like sample NPCs and plot hooks would be nice as well,
>> although I pretty much plan on working those up myself.
>
<snip>
>
> 2) City System (for Forgotten Realms); 1988; by TSR; for AD&D
> 1e.
>
> Again lots of random encounter tables. A city called Waterdeep
> with no real heart or soul; very shallow.
>
<snip>

The 1E module FR1 Waterdeep and the North and the 2E boxed set City of
Splendors have more information on Waterdeep's physical structure,
including maps.

The 2E "Volo's Guide to" series (Waterdeep, the North, the Sword Coast,
Cormyr, the Dalelands) had detailed information about various FR
cities, NPC's and plot hooks.

> Cities I would like to get:
>
> 1) Chaosium did a module for Stormbringer detailing the
> Melniboneans. Because Melniboneans nearly all live in their city
> of Imrryr, I'm guessing that this module must have quite a bit
> of detail on the dreaming city.
>
<snip>

Melniboné - Dragon Isle and Dreaming City (1993).

Has some information about the fortifications and architecture of
Imrryr, but the map on page 23 isn't very useful. It does have NPC's,
plot hooks and 3 small scenarios, but it's in the Elric system.


Arivne
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 6:36:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, Ian R Malcomson hastily scrawled:
>Dirk Collins <dirk.collins@Earthlink.Net> writes
>
><snip>
>>That being said, your city structure is first influenced by the local
>>geography or "lay of the land".
>
>This is the absolute major. Sketching out the local area surrounding
>the city, complete with resources and terrain, will almost dictate the
>lay and parameters defining the city. A city won't be a city unless it
>can support itself, has a reason to grow (including some nicety or other
>that makes people want to live there), and has the room to do it.
>
>Retro-fitting resources to a city design can be done, but it's easier to
>start with the basic necessities.

I like to plan my cities out organically, starting at some primary
resource (which will virtually always be water) and working my way
out. I then lay out development "zones" as a sort of timeline.
Remember, the middle of the city will almost always have the larger
buildings and be more crowded, but this trend tends to also stand for
individual "zones".

At any rate, I almost never lay out a city on a comprehensive,
house-by-house basis. Just map out the large/important buildings and
major roadways. Leave the rest as just a guideline for what sorts of
buildings/businesses are in a given area. Small towns and villages,
on the other hand, I sometimes get down to room level detail.




Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 6:36:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, Oberon hastily scrawled:
>
>2) The cities for WFRP look interesting. At least one Middenheim
>should be worth buying.

Middenheim is great. It's got a relatively high level of detail, and
is a very interesting city location. It's built on top of a
flat-topped mountain (think Devil's Tower), and the only way to reach
it is by causeway, or lift (or flying, I suppose, though that's less
common in WFRP).



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 10:02:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Oberon wrote:
> I found a few maps of London in my local libraries when I
> searched for them. Medieval London really consisted of the
> environs enclosed by the old Roman walls - the so-called "City";
> so any old map of london will have a similar street plans
> because I believe, after the great fire most of London was
> rebuilt (by the population) according to the old street plans.
>
> I found plans of the following towns and cities on the web a
> while ago. The vast majority of street-plans you find will be
> later then medieval. I can't remember the URLs but these are the
> places I found. With a little help from Google you should be
> able to get the same plans.

Hmmm... One of my favorite sites is Hipkiss' Scanned old maps site
at the following URL.

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps.html

Fantastic for early european towns & cities on the web, with
decent maps that are easily available for printing or study. This
should be a good primary research site for you.

With Regards,
Dirk
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 1:01:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Oberon <oberon@solstice.com> wrote:
>
> 1) City State of the Invincible Overlord. I've never looked at
> it but it comes from about the same time as Haven

Recently rereleased (Necromancer? I forget, it's upstairs)

> 2) City System (for Forgotten Realms); 1988; by TSR; for AD&D
> 1e.

*not* a lot useful. Really.

Well... not *entirely* true. The cardboard models could be useful, I
guess.

> 10) Lankhmar; 1989; TRS; for AD&D.
>
> Along with the actual city module there are a host of
> supplements for this city: 'Thieves of Lankhmar', 'Wonders of
> Lankhmar'. There are 2 editions: for 2e and 1e AD&D. My favorite
> of the early TSR cities.

Also, IIRC, included geomorphs for the city (small maps you can put
together in arbitrary order)

> 11) Arkham Unveiled; 1990; Chaosium; for Call of Cthulhu.
>
> Once more Chaosium come to the rescue showing them all how it
> should be done. The problem with this fantasy city is that it
> is, again, a large town and it is set in 1920s USA. But is has
> NPCs, plots, scenarios, a big fold-out map, floor-plans, and a
> town directory (so the GM can actually use it!). Makes you
> wonder what the other city builders were thinking of (or not
> thinking of). It's not the most atmospheric Chaosium module but
> it's bloody useful for Call of Cthulhu or any other game set in
> 1920's USA.

Kingspoint from Goldtree comes to mind. It was a (Foxpro?) database
with a front end, you could 'navigate' the city, store NPCs, etc. I
bought it (on sale) and it looked neat at the time, but I really never
found a use for it beyond "oh, cool"


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
August 7, 2005 8:40:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Dirk Collins wrote:
> spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> > I am running a campaign that will start in an urban setting ...
> >
> > What I _really_ would like are suggestions on how to draw city maps and
> > on physical city structure (not every nitty gritty detail, but things
> > that might be useful to the story or things that the PCs might ask,
> > where generally barracks would be built, what neighborhoods would be
> > connected with what, where one would put temples (poor neighborhoods or
> > rich neighborhoods; all together or scattered), where to place city
> > gates and how many, and things like that. Samples of City Maps would be
> > nice (they are actually relatively few and far between on the 'Net). I
> > want to draw my own map but some guidelines would be helpful (I've
> > tried to do my own, but I or my friends keep finding logistical
> > problems so I'd like some guidance).
>
> > If anyone has any suggestions--either online or print resources--that
> > would be extremely helpful.
>
> Cities... hmmm... let's see...
>
> Cities are originally built at the location of;
<snip useful basics>


> References;
>
> http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Course...
> http://carnel.sdf-eu.org/carnel/City2.pdf
> http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2669
> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/simcity/manual/history....
> http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=...

Thank you--and all the other posters--for very helpful advice and
sources. These are great places to start... and I might check out
ProFantasy as well.

Thanks again,

Death Quaker!
http://www.deathquaker.org
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 1:39:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> Dirk Collins wrote:
>
>>spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
>>
>>>I am running a campaign that will start in an urban setting ...
>>http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Course...
>>http://carnel.sdf-eu.org/carnel/City2.pdf
>>http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2669
>>http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/simcity/manual/history....
>>http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=...
>
>
> Thank you--and all the other posters--for very helpful advice and
> sources. These are great places to start... and I might check out
> ProFantasy as well.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Death Quaker!
> http://www.deathquaker.org
>

A tremendous online resource is the world builder resource. Geared to
gaming. http://www.geocities.com/worldbuildingonline/
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 5:20:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
>
> Thank you--and all the other posters--for very helpful advice and
> sources. These are great places to start... and I might check out
> ProFantasy as well.

I'd reply to the original, but I fell behind in my post-reading and
didn't download it. Anyway -- I've found _Cityworks_, from Legends &
Lairs, and the DMG II to both be quite useful. I won't say that my
cities are actually *good*, but I can at least map them out, which is
more than I could say without these resources. :) 

-Will
August 17, 2005 3:29:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 5 Aug 2005 10:04:03 -0700, spam@deathquaker.org wrote:

>What I _really_ would like are suggestions on how to draw city maps and
>on physical city structure

Here are some maps.

<http://grid.let.rug.nl/~welling/maps/&gt;
!