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*rant*Granite Bay, proof that Intel likes to BS us

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November 25, 2002 7:08:34 PM

Now this just plain pisses me off.
What I just saw out of this article, is living proof that either Intel made it on purpose to chug the performance down for Rambus to stay alive, or they really are BSing us with lower performance.
Under all logical circumstances, DDR266 Dual Channeled at 4.2GB/sec would outperform the i850E setup, but unfortunatly it does so only in a couple of benchmarks.
What's worse(!) is that the i845PE with 2.7GB/sec of bandwidth, actually beats it more often, and also ties the PC1066 DC system at least 50% of the time!

Load of bull people, Intel is doing this on purpose and I am far from convinced that this is the clear DC DDR266 performance on P4s. It's even worse thinking of what castrating will they add to Springdale. Sure it probably will outperform the PC1066 setup, but let us try to use it on a 533MHZ FSB with DDR266, I bet it has lower IPC at 4.2GB/sec, like the Granite Bay chipset, and basically it's just a "overall performance" boost à la speed ramping of P4s. Oh SiS, where are you?

Well that ends my rant, I really feel like I am let down by Intel on this one, not to mention expecting motherboard prices to be up there. I was this close to recommending the bay to a friend's system at Xmas. I can't even locate i845PE motherboards out there yet, let alone if they were released, I hope I don't have to lower it all down to the SiS 648 chipset (no offense of course, it's a great chipset, but the i845PE has HT support and is overall a tad more performing) motherboard setups.

Comments on the article anyone?
:mad: 

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 11/25/02 04:09 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b à CPUs
November 25, 2002 7:52:23 PM

The 655 chipset will support HT in late December. It's funny that Anand's benchmarks don't agree completely with Tom's, but I've always found Tom's to be more reliable...

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
November 25, 2002 9:13:15 PM

dunno maybe they just did a crappy job on the 7205, roadmap shows that they launch springdale GE / PE / ?? the latter being the replacement for Preston

I guess they used some other north bridge for GB, springdale however will be a modified 845 and bigger to accomodate lines for dual ddr support

they can figure it out i don't care as far as i'm concerned i'll wait that extra second with a PE or something and pay less in the process,

I don't think however that intel is particularly fond of rambus, maybe they just want to see what ddr 2 has in stall and decide then, GB is an intermediate solution and wasn't meant as a consumer product but mainly amed workstations, ....

Remember the time You used 20Mb harddrives
November 25, 2002 9:35:01 PM

<A HREF="http://www.ocworkbench.com/2002/gigabyte/8inxp/8inxpp3...." target="_new">Ocworkbench</A>, <A HREF="http://www.hexus.net/review.php?review=457&page=7" target="_new">hexus.net</A>, <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1748&p=18" target="_new">anand</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,715477,00.as..." target="_new">extremetech</A> all don't seem to agree with <A HREF="http://www17.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q4/021125/int..." target="_new">toms</A>. All show results to be quite similar (sometimes ahead, sometimes behind) the RIMM4200 or PC1066 setup with the exception of Tom's benchmarks. Which is to be expected as both offer theoretically the same bandwidth. Rambus offers a faster memory frequency (which means it's faster for accesses to reach the memory) while DDR SDRAM offers critical word priority. Either has its advantages and we're seeing them in different applications.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
November 25, 2002 9:53:50 PM

Wait till I get one in my hands, they need much more agressive memory settings. It seem THG did not overclock at all.

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
November 26, 2002 1:10:24 AM

If only they used as an aggressive memory timing as the nForce2 did.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
November 26, 2002 1:29:29 AM

LOL

all DRR chipset DC have been beat up to now.Also alpha have made a transition to RDRAM

Now what to do??
November 26, 2002 1:41:29 AM

Although that can be more clear,(the Anandtech ones and ExtremeTech's) it just further proves that Intel is castrating the chipset. Look at the PE!
Just look at it, this thing is 1.5GB/sec lower than the GB, which if I may add has quite the low latency. No, even if it ties or outperforms by a 1%, this is not the reality of DC DDR's performance. I wish nVidia would just pay the license and show Intel how it's really done. That prefetcher and DASP could certainly do some change even though the P4 already has excellent prefetch.

Does anybody know if i845PE mainboards are out somewhere?

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 26, 2002 4:10:15 AM

Asus's P4PE has been selling for a while. It should be mentioned that single channel without parity would be faster latency-wise than dual channel with parity. In bandwidth-intensive applications, the E7502 chipset still ruled (compared to the i845pe). Also, as I pointed out in another thread, the real potential is the overclocking potential.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
November 26, 2002 4:20:47 AM

Are you a Rambus fanboy? I am still to find a Rambus fanboy.

Quote:
Also alpha have made a transition to RDRAM


Does DEC still exists? I can't remember clearly, Intel or IBM bought DEC few years ago.

Let us know <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/community/modules.php?na..." target="_new"> What File compression format you use? </A>
November 26, 2002 10:49:08 AM

The same cannot be said for RDRAM Dual Channeled, unfortunatly, according to Raystonn.

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 11/26/02 07:49 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
November 26, 2002 2:08:31 PM

the review clearly said to not take any of the benchmark as anything. These boards are probably in alpha stage and are not even in final production!

Why intel has limited to 266 probably has to do with some timing issue with ddr333 and having 4 dimm slots that intel probably needs to work out.

If you notice on those boards with 4 dimm slots is that with ddr400 you can only have 2 sticks installed, with ddr333 you can have 3 sticks and with ddr 266 you can have 4.

Obviously it's a timing issue with having 4 dimm slots filled up.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
November 26, 2002 5:16:05 PM

I'm a RD fanboy, got a problem with it?

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
November 26, 2002 5:35:28 PM

Quote:
Why intel has limited to 266 probably has to do with some timing issue with ddr333 and having 4 dimm slots that intel probably needs to work out.

If you notice on those boards with 4 dimm slots is that with ddr400 you can only have 2 sticks installed, with ddr333 you can have 3 sticks and with ddr 266 you can have 4.

Obviously it's a timing issue with having 4 dimm slots filled up.

xxsk8er101xx, as usual you have everything bass ackwards. Those timing issues are <b>per channel</b>. Now how many channels do you suppose a <b>dual</b> channel motherboard has, hmm?

So with 4 DIMM slots, that makes only <b>two</b> DIMM slots for each channel. Two per channel, DDR400 runs just fine with only two per channel, and thus "<font color=red>Obviously it's a timing issue with having 4 dimm slots filled up.</font color=red>" is <b>not</b> the problem.

If <i>anything</i> the problem is simply that Intel has had that darned Granite Bay chipset laying around gathering dust in the back closet of R&D for way too long, almost as long as the 845 chipset itself has existed. Work on GB started long before the 845 recieved improvement after improvement. <i>Obviously</i> those improvements made to the 845 were never made to GB, and thus GB is an example of a DC design based on the <i>early</i> 845 versions. Hence it sucks.

Expect better to come. GB is just a bone ripped off of the skeleton in the closet and tossed out to keep a few yapping puppies quiet while Dr. Frankenstein perfects his more recent experiment.

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November 26, 2002 5:44:44 PM

Ew Intel rips bones off people... Ew!!!

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
November 26, 2002 7:08:11 PM

Thank you for making it clear that the controller is not well optimized, or not improved as the i845.
Clearly the i845PE deserves major credits, it is highly optimized to compete PC1066 at 1.5GB/sec less.
It's sad that this chipset is out like this.
It even irritates me more as I quote THG saying it will replace i850E!
A step down in performance! Now this could actually be sued, as a new product touted as the better of the line, is weaker than the one it replaced.
Worse is that it will have expensive motherboards, and with such performance, I see no P/P ratio anywhere. The i845PE is the clear choice to me.

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 26, 2002 7:16:50 PM

Then sit down buddy we can talk about RD all day if you like.

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
November 26, 2002 7:33:53 PM

Quote:
Clearly the i845PE deserves major credits, it is highly optimized to compete PC1066 at 1.5GB/sec less.

I completely agree. Intel is doing some really good development. You just have to watch out for when they dredge up really old crap from their closets and market it as new and innovating. Even then, the first versions of anything majorly new are likely to have their faults. Look at ThoroughbredA, KT266, Willamette, i845 (remember when it was only for single-rate SDRAM?), etc.

Quote:
A step down in performance! Now this could actually be sued, as a new product touted as the better of the line, is weaker than the one it replaced.
Worse is that it will have expensive motherboards, and with such performance, I see no P/P ratio anywhere.

I'm sorry, were you talking about Granite Bay and 845PE, or about the Willy/NorthyA and the Coppermine/Tually? **cheeky grin**

(By the way, is there a cute nickname for a Coppermine other than just CuMine?)

Seriously, Intel has gotten away with selling something inferior as 'The Next Best Thing' once before and it was a <b>much</b> larger impact on consumers then. We have nothing remarkably new here. And I'm sure in time Intel will get their dual-channel DDR chipset right. You just have to have faith and do a little research.

Besides, I still say that anyone who spends a grand or two (or more) on something and DOESN'T research it well first deserves what they get. I trust salespeople far less than I can throw them. :) 

And on further thought, at least Granite Bay <i>should</i> allow a full 4GB of DDR SDRAM with perfect stability for single-processor systems. :) 

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November 26, 2002 7:50:46 PM

I meant THG said the GB will replace the i850E as top of the line.
Now it's true the first P4s were NOT better than the P3s, but Intel was smart to add: Faster than...
Faster CAN be known as MHZ and yes it is faster in that respect. So it couldn't be sued for much $.
In this case, marketting the product as the better top of the line system CAN be, if the same type of OEM system was previously using an i850E PC1066 combo.

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 26, 2002 9:54:55 PM

Eden here's my view.

On non bandwidth demanding apps, the GB falls behind since it uses only DDR266. So it'd be practically like running it in single channel, if DC is not needed. When running memory intensive apps, the DC266 would beat out the DDR333 845PE.

Simple as that I guess.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
November 26, 2002 11:04:42 PM

Here is my view:

A. The chipset is too new.
B. Intel has mixed feelings about DC DDR. (a.k.a. the intel rambus love story)
C. Thus a third party DC DDR chipset would probably be alot better. (sis? via?)

<b>The Intel Celleron 2.1 & 2.2Ghz processors provide consumers with a great way to get on the Internet. Which one of the 478 pins plug into the phone socket? - <i>Intel & The Inquirer</i></b>
November 27, 2002 12:55:41 AM

Now's a good time to scream GO VIA for Crashman! :smile:

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 27, 2002 1:04:30 AM

Your view is simply subjective on the benchmarks Chuck.
And even there, you have flaws in your logic:

Quote:
On non bandwidth demanding apps, the GB falls behind since it uses only DDR266.

Why would the memory type make it fall behind if its bandwidth is nevertheless 4.2GB/sec at ALL TIMES unless intendedly single channeled?
You could say the same for Rambus, their RAM is 133MHZ like DDR266, hence both are in sync with the bus.
It's like saying nVidia has a 256-bit DDR memory bandwidth at 400MHZ= 25600MBs/sec.
ATi runs theirs at 512-bit DDR with 200MHZ clock, woopety doo =25600.
Why in this case would the nVidia one suddenly fall behind? Assuming nVidia's is the DDR266 DC and the ATi is RDRAM PC1066.
Here it was a scenario with no latency exceptions, simply to show you that falling behind is impossible for the bandwidth solely. Not to mention DDR266 is very low latency in itself, though I am not sure if it goes down more in Dual Channel, but I am pretty sure it should win RDRAM here.

Quote:
So it'd be practically like running it in single channel, if DC is not needed.

In this case you are to apply this to RDRAM as well, ergo you are not proving the point.
Quote:
When running memory intensive apps, the DC266 would beat out the DDR333 845PE.

By a fairly small margin mind you, while it is 1.4GB/sec higher, and in the same type of memory, therefore it should have a logical performance advantage here, no? Wouldn't the nVidia card with the same speccs, running at 26GB/sec be MUCH better than the one with 20GB/sec?

Nope, I'm afraid it ain't as simple Chuck, and Slvr's thoughts and mine are still the most apparent. Although on a bright note, welcome back Chuckster!

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 27, 2002 2:31:19 AM

All I can say is...

*gets on knees and begs SiS to finish up 655*

-Col.Kiwi
November 27, 2002 3:09:18 AM

Yes.
The more i think about it the more i can see Intel Intentionally slowing the chipset down so it doesnt spank their 850E offering. Ties with Rambus go deep I bet.

<b>The Intel Celleron 2.1 & 2.2Ghz processors provide consumers with a great way to get on the Internet. Which one of the 478 pins plug into the phone socket? - <i>Intel & The Inquirer</i></b>
November 27, 2002 3:09:29 AM

DEC as been buy by compaq (alpha) after the alpha team and patern as been sold to Intel in the deal oh HP-compaq fusion

Now what to do??
November 27, 2002 3:12:06 AM

please try to put some comment base on some electronique knowlege

Now what to do??
November 27, 2002 3:19:20 AM

official is 1 dimm at 512 density and only with few mobo.
E7XXX serie are for workstation/server.Stability and handling very high density DIMM is at premium also according to intel I850E is still the best chipset.

Now what to do??
November 27, 2002 3:20:31 AM

yes i am a rambus fan boy more that any others.

Now what to do??
November 27, 2002 10:50:19 AM

Yes but it's even worse when you think that the i850E is BEING REPLACED by GB!
That truly makes me angry, to see the top performer replaced by a cheaper one and then claimed as usual as the absolute new crown of performance.

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 27, 2002 1:59:37 PM

Quote:
Yes but it's even worse when you think that the i850E is BEING REPLACED by GB!
That truly makes me angry, to see the top performer replaced by a cheaper one and then claimed as usual as the absolute new crown of performance.

Ah, don't worry. It'll be about as 'replaced' as the P4 'replaced' the P3.

(In other words, it'll take a good long year or more to even 'replace' it, and even then those who desire merely need to look a little harder, for the hardware is still out there.)

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November 27, 2002 2:03:20 PM

Quote:
please try to put some comment base on some electronique knowlege

Please try to make sense.

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November 27, 2002 4:11:59 PM

He is your just rude to the poor fellow. You claim to have such a high intelect you should be able to understand baby talk to.

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
November 27, 2002 7:56:07 PM

LOL :smile:

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 27, 2002 8:37:49 PM

this thread is so stupid and full of bullshit speculation i can't stand it. u actually think they castrated the chipset because they "love rambus" you are the biggest idiot in the world. did it ever occur to you that the complexity and the fact that the chipset is brand new might be reasons for performance below expectations. u know they have had dual channel rdram chipsets since pentium the p3. this is their first dc ddr chipset. maybe you should think before you go off like a idiotic 2 year old.
November 28, 2002 12:36:52 AM

LOL@ Eden. Yes, my logic isn't too great.. :smile:

You do all realize that GB is gonna be a very short lived chipset. In Q1-Q2 2003, Intel'll be releasing the DC DDR400 chipsets Springdale and Canterwood. Then let's see if they're in a "we love Rambus" kinda mood. I'd like to see some RIMM6400 RDRAM... :lol: 

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...
November 28, 2002 12:56:23 AM

I am aware of Springdale and Canterwood, I even love them! :smile:
But the point is that I don't want them to simply create support for DDR400 and 800MHZ FSB only, but also improve the latency and memory controller like the i845PE, so that the 4.2GB/sec operation on Springdale would be even more powerful than GB.
Also Canterwood's replacement of i850E is the same as Springdale 800MHZ FSB, but Intel added that it will be even more powerful, so I expect some powerful optimizations of the mem controller. Even more to be happy about!

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
November 28, 2002 12:56:46 AM

That's ok, I still love you! :smile:

--
*You can do anything you set your mind to man. -Eminem
!