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Intel is disappointing me

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December 10, 2002 5:44:43 PM

I was almost 100% certain, that my next CPU was going to be a P4 (2.53GHZ or 2.66GHz). I have had my mind set for system supporting dual channel DDR, either Granite Bay or SIS655, but the chipsets have been extremly long under way. Now with Granite Bay only slowly starting to emerge, I find myself rather disappointed looking at the result. Granite Bay does only support dual DDR266 (PC2100) and the other features of the chipset is no big deal. THG's review also reflected some sort of disappointment in both performance and features of the chipset.

When I buy a new system, I want it to be *significantly* better than the last generation and not downscaled on purpose, in order to make the technology last longer (for Intel).

At least I hoped that SIS would be ready with the dual channel solution SIS655 which officially supports DDR333 (PC2700), but it's like they have been told to hold back the chipset (by Intel).

With the recent availability of nforce2 based motherboards like Asus's A7N8X, I'm about to change my opinion about what my next system should be.

Believe it or not, I'm getting intrigued by the idea of an AMD Athlon XP2400+ in combination with ASUS A7N8X and some PC3200 CAS2 DDR SDRAM. Especially because the XP2400+'s comes with unlocked multipliers. Also I have some high end watercooling gear at my disposal, and I think it should be possible to reach XP3000+ levels.

I'm just about to make my purchase, please let me know if you think that I'm about to make a mistake, and should rather stick to someting like a 845PE based board with a 2.53GHz or 2.66GHz P4. Such a system should be able to reach 3.17GHz/3.33GHz on a 166MHz FSB with the kind of water-cooling I have at my disposal.

<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:

More about : intel disappointing

December 10, 2002 6:00:49 PM

definitely the right decision.i too have been disappointed by granite bay's specs and am going for an xp 2400 and nforce 2 combo (probably epox ep-8rda+).can't afford pc 3200 but am gonna get pc2700 cas 2.xp 2400 is definitely best amd bang for buck at moment coz the price jump to 2600 is massive and you can run 2400 at 333 easily.the nforce 2 is the best reason to buy amd.

no matter how hard you try, you can't polish a turd. :]
December 10, 2002 7:14:38 PM

Now, the Epox nForce2 boards (and others, possibly) will allow for the adjustment of the multiplier in either the T-bred "B" or all T-breds through the BIOS without needing to change anything on the chip. IIRC, the 2400+ still requires a bridge to be connected with conductive ink, but it's on the end so you can make a "U" shape. No need to fill the gaps. Perhaps I am wrong, but I do know, and you can check Anand's nForce2 round up for proof, that the Epox board unlocks the multiplier itself, without having to do anything. It would be very easy, then, to go up to the 333MHz FSB.

BTW, what are you currently running?

-SammyBoy

Some day, THG-willing, I shall obtain the coveted "Old Hand" title.
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December 10, 2002 7:54:44 PM

Unless something changes unexpectedly, the next high-performance standard for Intel-based systems is going to be the Pentium 4 Processor with 800MHz System Bus on a Canterwood chipset motherboard, running dual-channel DDR400. The Canterwood has a high performance northbridge, offering better memory performance than Springdale will. Public roadmaps currently indicate all of this to be available in Q2 of next year.

If you can wait, you will be pleasantly surprised. If not, good luck with whatever you decide to purchase.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
December 10, 2002 8:30:11 PM

Quote:
BTW, what are you currently running?

I'm running an ultra silent machine build around a 1400MHz Tualatin Celeron.

The complete PC does only have 3 x 80mm ultra low noise fans.

One Pabst 8412NGL at full speed (1500 RPM /12V) installed in the Chieftec 300W power-supply. Noise: 12 dB(A)

One Pabst 8412NGL at medium speed (7V) installed as an exhaust case fan. < 12 dB(A)

Finally one Power Fluid 80L at medium speed (7V) placed on top of the impressive ThermalRight SLK800 heatsink. This fan has fluid bearings and moves 21 CFM at full speed (2000 RPM /12V) at which speed it only emits 9 dB(A). As I'm running it at 7V it's absolutely silent.

I have removed the fan from my GeForce4 MX440 and replaced it with Zalmans fanless GPU cooler, the amazing Zalman VGA Heatpipe ZM80A-HP.

I even mounted my WD800JB with 8MB cache in an innovaTek innovaVIBE and placed it in a 5 1/4" drive bay in order to kill all noise.

As my second machine is going to produce a lot more heat than the Tualatin system, I have bought some innovaTek water-cooling gear in order to maintain silence even when overclocking.

<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 10, 2002 9:09:48 PM

Quote:
If you can wait, you will be pleasantly surprised.

No, I'm afraid I won't wait. I have heard about the upcoming dual-channel DDR400 Canterwood chipset, and I admit it really sounds nice, but it's too far away. Remember it will also be facing compitition from AMD's Athlon 64.

Personally I think Intel has blown it's chance to really prevent AMD from making money in Q4/02 and Q1/03. Had Intel introduced HT in the 2.66GHz, 2.8GHz and 3.06GHz P4's and if Granite Bay have had specifications similar to the SIS's SIS655 chipset, they would have gained an even larger market-share than they have now (of course).

I consider myself an Intel fan-boy, but after nforce2 and the availablility of unlocked XP2400+, I'm no longer 100% convinced that I should throw my money in Intel's direction. I have a feeling that the subjective performance (system response) would most likely be better on the AMD system. Had HT been avaiable for lower speed-grades also, I would no doubt have gone in the Intel direction and combined it with a 845PE chipset. I just might wait until Intel release CPU's with HT at lower speed-grades by the end of february, if I can wait that long. Chances are by that time, that AMD's 200MHz FSB Barton or Athlon 64 will be just around the corner and maybe cause me to wait even a bit more.


<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 10, 2002 9:20:34 PM

you are aware that a overclocked p4 2.5a with your "watercooling gear" will spank any athlon on any chipset right?
December 10, 2002 9:26:26 PM

No mistake I'd say.. =\
Go ahead with AMD~
December 10, 2002 9:28:45 PM

Psst... you cant tell them that... they might realize that the AXP core should have retired 3 months ago... mum's the word though... hehe see you on the other side...

-Jeremy

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile:
December 10, 2002 9:40:36 PM

Quote:
you are aware that a overclocked p4 2.5a with your "watercooling gear" will spank any athlon on any chipset right?

Besides being a C1 stepping, I don't think such a high clocked CPU with only a 400MHz system bus would be a wise choice. It could probably be run at 3.33GHz with a 533MHz bus. A 850E based board with PC1066 RDRAM would then be a perfect match. No, I would prefer either a C1 stepping 2.0GHz/400 or a C1 stepping 2.66GHz/533 running at 3.33GHz with a 667MHz bus.


<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 20, 2002 4:39:21 PM

Quote:
I was almost 100% certain, that my next CPU was going to be a P4 (2.53GHZ or 2.66GHz). I have had my mind set for system supporting dual channel DDR, either Granite Bay or SIS655, but the chipsets have been extremly long under way. Now with Granite Bay only slowly starting to emerge, I find myself rather disappointed looking at the result. Granite Bay does only support dual DDR266 (PC2100) and the other features of the chipset is no big deal. THG's review also reflected some sort of disappointment in both performance and features of the chipset.

A little follow up; I ended up putting my money where I put my mouth.

I've just purchased bought my <b>first</b> AMD system !!!!

In a period where the majority of people seems to go for the P4, I'm actually going in the opposite direction. Me, a long time declared Intel fanboy has actually got myself my first AMD system. This event can solely be attributed to the availability of a good dual channel DDR motherboard. AMD can thank nVidia for getting me into the AMD camp. Intel failed to deliver an up-to-date dual channel DDR SDRAM solution and SIS and VIA didn't make it in time.

The system is of course build around the nForce2 chipset.

Motherboard: <b>Asus A7N8X Deluxe.</b>
CPU: <b>AMD XP2400+.</b>
1 stick 256MB Samsung PC2700 DDR SDRAM.

Yes, only a single channel for a starters. This is no ideal situation and the performance is no doubt going to be affected by this, but I have not been able to buy quality PC3500 DDR SDRAM, capable of CAS2 @ 400MHz. I've been promised two sticks 256MB of such RAM shortly after new year.

The CPU is going to be cooled using a high-end InnovaTek based watercooling setup, including the InnovaCOOL Rev.3 waterhead.

I'm going to put the system together today and if everything goes as planned, I should be able to post some benchmarks and some comments later this weekend. I hope for more than 2.2GHz. Anything less will be a disappointment and will make me regret the purchase.

It will be interesting to see if I can avoid cracking the core when installing the heatsink...

<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 20, 2002 6:01:25 PM

"I'm running an ultra silent machine build around a 1400MHz Tualatin Celeron."

Not for long lol. You need a friggen jet engine to keep the althon cool lol!


Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
December 20, 2002 6:11:13 PM

since you bought an AMD system and new to AMD design here are some things to look out for. Putting on the heatsink is pain in the ass you need at least 1 flat head or 2 flat head screw drivers to put the thing on. oh, and do not use the retail fan that comes with the AMD retail cpu. It's crap. ask anyone here. You need arctice silver 3 and read the manual on how to apply it or go to arcticesilver.com.

You will notice the noise more then anything. You will not notice any difference in speed from a pentium to an athlon. And between a 2.4ghz p4 ($190 at newegg), 256MB RAM, and a intel motherboard you are probably paying more or about equal for the AMD system. And the only difference you'll notice is the noise.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
December 20, 2002 6:51:08 PM

Dont use the standard fan that comes with AXP? I dont know what you have been smoking but i bought an AXP and i had no problems getting the heatsink on correctly. I have NO problems with overheating either. If you have problems (and you dont overclock the processor) with overheating, you should let someone else put the HSF on that knows what they are doing. You'll be fine with the AXP and YES it does perform better than the P4 in most applications. The only reason these people like to give AMD a bad rep is because they hear rumors or improperly install the processor and then blame the company rather than blame themselves. Personally, i will be buying an Athlon 64 in oh... 6 months or so. All my home pcs have been built with AMD processors and all of them have lasted 3+ years and are still running...(except of course the one i bought a month ago, but that's running perfect too)
December 20, 2002 8:27:38 PM

Putting on a heat sink doesn't have to be hard. I just bought a Swiftec MCXC370 (MCX370-CR2) cooler to install on my XP 2700+ and it was the easiest installation of any heat sink I have ever had. Hook the latches, turn the screw as specified, attached the fan, and you are done. It runs fairly quiet and does a good job of cooling.

My XP2700+ runs cooler than my P4 2.0A and there is not a much difference in the sound.


<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 20, 2002 8:35:38 PM

Quote:
You'll be fine with the AXP and YES it does perform better than the P4 in most applications.


Go read some benchmarks before you go spouting propaganda which is contradictary to the truth.

<A HREF="http://www17.tomshardware.com/cpu/20021114/images/image..." target="_new">One example</A> of a P4 with a clock the same as an AXP's PR, coming out ahead.

-Col.Kiwi
December 20, 2002 10:55:59 PM

where does the fan go on a watercooled system???

:tongue:

(bb || !bb) - Shakespeare
December 21, 2002 1:30:36 AM

if you read my specs you would know i have an Intel Pentium 4. ANd yes it is a pain in the ass to get it off and on. On is easy obviously but try and take it off. It's a pain in the ass.

No problems with heat because it's winter or it's cool where you are at. once temps reach 90 degrees i will guantee it will lockup at least once.

You don't seem to know me and i'll tell you right now i'm a computer wiz. I know everything about them. I'm not talking about clock for clock. Because you can't find a pentium 4 1.4ghz anymore. Point is a 2.4ghz will work just as good as the athlon 2400+.

These are not rumors i've had an AMD system longer then you have. I had K6-2, duron, t-bird, and athlon xp. The main problem i've had was the chipset.

I dont' give a [-peep-] how many PC's you have that are AMD. I have 2 AMD processors myself ontop of 2 AMD computers. I reocmend them even.

I don't even think you have any clue what you are talking about seeing that you don't know me and your making a lot of assumptions.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
December 21, 2002 1:33:49 AM

not much but it is louder right?

"Hook the latches, turn the screw as specified, attached the fan, and you are done."

Wanna know what i have to do for my Intel system? I put the heatsink on the processor and pull the levers down. thats it. No risk of my cpu burning up either. How many "my amd cpu fried" threads have you read recently?

Anyway who cares!


Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by xxsk8er101xx on 12/22/02 09:44 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
December 21, 2002 12:32:31 PM

System up and running.

I managed <b>not</b> to crack the core.

I'll have to make this short, but I'll be back later.

MB temp: 30 C/ 86 F
CPU temp: 34 C/93 F

at stock settings, i.e XP2400+ = 2000MHz. Seems like the watercooling gear is performing quite well.


<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 21, 2002 6:25:28 PM

Did you try to run the CPU with a Retail HSF or low end HSF?
I was wondering just how far did that watercooler cool.
So far these temps are awesome, and I am awaiting to see from you, a regular user, what watercooling results can be gotten off the new Tbred Bs.
Good luck.

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December 21, 2002 9:15:37 PM

Quote:
Did you try to run the CPU with a Retail HSF or low end HSF?


Nope, I bought a tray version. The only other Socket A cooler I have around, is the awesome Thermalright SLK-800, which is currently mounted on top of my Tualatin Celeron. I don't feel like investing the time in trying it on the XP2400+ as it can hardly be called a stock cooler ;-)

The low idle temps was obtained with full speed on both 120mm fans which embraces the 120mm Innovatek InnovaRADI single radiator. Each fan pushes 72 CFM at full speed (1900 RPM). At that speed the added noise of the two fans is 31dB(A). My watercooling gear is absolutely top-end stuff, so I think the temp is pretty much as low as it can go with an ambient temperature around 30C, without resorting to a peltier.

I haven't had any success in overclocking yet; the BIOS doesn't seem to let me change anything without going BSOD. This is probably due to the BIOS version I'm using, and it looks like i'll have to do the L3 bridge solder pin trick before I can change the multiplier.


<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 21, 2002 11:42:18 PM

Well I finally managed to find out how to overclock my XP2400+ using the standard BIOS. I didn't do the L3 bridge trick so changing the multiplier was not possible, so my only option was to increase the FSB. So I did that ....

NOW MY XP2400+ IS ACTUALLY RUNNING AT 2.4GHz, a solid 400MHz overclock. With a 160MHz FSB and agressive memory timing in single channel mode, I belive it is currently faster than AMD's top dog, the XP2800+ which only runs at 2250MHz albeit with a 166MHz FSB.

Now I have to find out how to lower the multiplier so I can run the baby at the highest possible FSB without passing the 2400MHz line. I hope for a 200MHz FSB and dual channel operation at 400MHz. I'll get two sticks of PC3500 in two weeks time so stay tuned for some real action.

<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 22, 2002 7:20:23 PM

Quote:
You don't seem to know me and i'll tell you right now i'm a computer wiz. I know everything about them.


I'm impressed.



BTW, a computer's noise has to do with the jerk that build's the PC. A halfwit building a PC (Intel or AMD) will make it noisy. It's usually a matter of them cutting costs at the expense of the customer's hearing.

With that being said, the noisiest PC's I've ever seen were a batch of about 16 Intel P4 1.7 Ghz Williamettes. I have never heard such foul noise from a group of PC's in my life. Completely unbearable, and get this: They each cost $2500, billed to a local university. He got away with murder...

<font color=red>
<A HREF="http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/ApJ/" target="_new">Forum Assassin</A></font color=red>
December 22, 2002 8:28:43 PM

Quote:
ANd yes it is a pain in the ass to get it off and on. On is easy obviously but try and take it off. It's a pain in the ass.

THEN
Quote:
Wanna know what i have to do? I put the heatsink on the processor and pull the levers down. thats it.


I feel contradiction here.

--
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December 22, 2002 8:43:23 PM

i noticed you said you're going with pc3500, may i ask why not pc3200 (ddr400)?
i've seen wusy in the memory forum talking about "True DDR400" being DDR433, whereas everything else is DDR333 overclocked, but JEDEC has NOT given official specs for DDR400 yet, so i don't think that's possible (i.e. TRUE DDR400 does not exist yet.)
if i'm wrong let me know, but meanwhile wusy is still recommending that everyone get pc3500 so they can run at DDR400 speeds because it's "true" ddr400
anyone heard anything about this phenomenon?
a link to the thread is <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new">here</A>, it's probably better if you respond there since this is more of a memory question
BUT copenhagen i do wonder why you're going with pc3500 to run synchronous 200Mhz

--------------

<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&..." target="_new">mubla otohp eht ni ecaf ruoy teg</A>
December 22, 2002 9:31:29 PM

I don't think wusy's right at all.
Real PC3200 memory would be DDR400, as the numbering methodology goes by the octal pumping of the clock speed.
The clock is 400MHZ, times 8, to give you about 3200MBs/sec of bandwidth. What wusy is indicating is probably that PC3500 has an easier chance to underclock to PC3200 memory with CAS2.
I have never heard of DDR RAM who's real clock is not associated with the proper bandwidth numbering.
However PC3500 does run at 433MHZ, as 433*8 reaches about 3500MBs/sec, though the amount is actually lower, and keeps lowering due to the inexactitude of clocks and the fact 3500/3200 is a 9% increase while 433/400 is 8%.

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December 23, 2002 12:46:26 AM

how i have an intel system. You just pull the levers down and the heatsink is attached where for an amd system you have fiddle around with the latches or screws. Not on the intel system.

how is that a contradiction?

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
December 23, 2002 1:19:22 AM

Quote:
ANd yes it is a pain in the ass to get it off and on. On is easy obviously but try and take it off. It's a pain in the ass.

This is.

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December 23, 2002 7:14:44 AM

No it's not. I suggest you actually read the thread properly. You will note that he was speaking about two different cpus+coolers, 1 being Intel based, the other AMD. The point he was making is that in order to attach the cooling system on the AMD cpu, you need to screw around with an awkward clunky piece of $#17 instead of the Intel cpu which has (like mine *smile) a set of levers to pull everything down into place. It's nice 8-)
December 23, 2002 1:46:35 PM

Hahahahahaha. You are freaking out. I'll not go there. My point is that it doesn't have to be a pain to put on the heat sink like you said. The heat sink I mentioned is easy to install. I have 2 AMD 1200 MHz systems running with included heat sink for over 2 years and it wasn't that bad to put on the included heat sink. Besides he has a water cooler that he is going to install. So your comments about the included cooler don't make sense. It seems that you are just an Intel boy. I am not trying to offend you. I am just trying to understand the attitude. I also have one P4 2 GHz computer. I do like the clip on the P4, but I wouln't make a decision based on that. That is like buying a car because you like the tires. You can change the tires. With an AMD system you can install a different heat sink that is easy. I haven't been disappointed with either system (AMD or Intel). They both accomplished what I wanted. I also have a XP 2700+ that I am really enjoying.

You are right about prices being similar for 2.4 GHz / 2400+ systems, but you are wrong to say that all heat sinks for an Athlon are hard to install. You are wrong to say, "You will not notice any difference in speed from a pentium to an athlon." It depends on the application. Sometimes the P4 is quicker and sometimes the Athlon. There is no need to exagerate.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 23, 2002 1:56:47 PM

Merry Christmas everyone. :smile:

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 23, 2002 2:22:01 PM

I'm speaking from experience. You said yourself they both do what you want right? They both do the samething. I switched from a AMD athlon xp 1600+ to a pentium 4 2ghz. The only difference i noticed was the stability and a lot less noise. Also some speed because i had double the RAM installed then before.

Try taking the heatsink off on the AMD system. From experience not one AMD system is it easy to take it off. most of you seem to be missing that point. And seeing that i upgrade all the time it's nice to see Intel designed a system to easily install the heatsink without worry that you wil crush the core or not install it properly and watch the cpu go up in smoke. Not that the P4 can because of it's ondie thermal diode and thermal throttling.

and i'm not freaking out these are settle difference and seeing that both chips do the samething, almost cost about the same, next step would be TOO look at the minor differences and clearly the Intel has a lot more to offer for the price.


Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
December 23, 2002 2:41:00 PM

Quote:
noticed you said you're going with pc3500, may i ask why not pc3200 (ddr400)?

I guess high quality PC3200 capable of running CAS2 at 400MHz would be fine, but from reading reviews on the net, it seems that not many PC3200 modules can do that, whereas most PC3500 modules running 400MHz are able to do that.

Quote:
BUT copenhagen i do wonder why you're going with pc3500 to run synchronous 200Mhz

I'm talking about a 200MHz FSB with the memory running synchronously, that is 400MHz DDR.


<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 23, 2002 2:44:41 PM

Basically you just want a higher clocked memory as it often guarantees that lower clocking it would yeild aggressive settings very easily.


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December 23, 2002 2:57:45 PM

Quote:
Basically you just want a higher clocked memory as it often guarantees that lower clocking it would yeild aggressive settings very easily.

Exactly.


<i>/Copenhagen - Clockspeed will make the difference... in the end</i> :cool:
December 23, 2002 3:05:32 PM

So far you have a 400MHZ 20% overclock, I hope you can do better if you want. In PR though, this 400MHZ OC is like 600 points more over the XP2400.
And you've yet to use the Dual Channeling. I hope you have luck with it, and be able to unlock the CPU without the pin tricks, and use high FSB clock speeds.
It'd be interesting to see how far can you get it.

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December 23, 2002 4:34:30 PM

Yes I said they do what I want. I did not say they do the same thing. Each has a unique function. I have never had a stability issue with my AMD systems. I have never used VIA, however. And if done right you do not have problems with noise.

Again I was bringing to everyone's attention a heat sink that is easy to install and remove. There is no more risk in installing this heat sink than one on an Intel system. Are you reading my posts? You are saying it is hard and I am telling you about a heat sink that is not hard. The P4 is easy, and so is the heat sink for an XP I am telling you about.

I assume you mean "subtle" differences. That actually means:

sub·tle (s?t'l)
adj., sub·tler, sub·tlest.
So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe

You are implying that it is something of significance. You are not implying that it is subtle (difficult to detect).

I am trying to point out that there are heat sinks that are not difficult to install and remove for the AMD (no prying at all).

"clearly Intel has a lot more to offer for the price" lol. What processor you choose depends on how you use it. There are performance differences in the processors. You have to look at your apps and decide what is best for you.

It seems that you choose a processor based on whether it has clips. You must remove your processor and carry it in your pocket every day to make such an issue of it.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 23, 2002 5:18:25 PM

First, I must agree that there is no more risk involved (Obviously the risk is that of losing your CPU due to improper heatsink installation) with heatsinks for either Athlons or P4's, I will say that the failure rates for successfully installing heatsinks on Athlons are unnecessarily higher than for P4's. As I work with Athlons EVERYDAY and have to deal with these Heatsinks on an EVERYDAY basis, I think I can honestly say that YES, the Athlon heatsinks ARE harder to deal with vs P4 heatsinks.

And let me be the first to tell you, that dealing with an Athlon 1200 (T-bird) is NOT like dealing with and Athlon XP. The XP's require twice as much care to deal with. As my pile of screwed XP's grows (due to my own installation screw-ups, and yes, everyone screws up once in a while...), it attests to that fact.

Although, I will agree that in order to pick the best system for you, you must look at what progs you are going to run, I will say that it is getting more competitive, and that I do have more people ordering P4's now that actually did order Athlons only 2 years ago.

Also, the way I understand what he was saying, is that xxsk8er101xx was making the point that the Intel chips have more to offer in terms of safety and "stability", than their Athlon equivilants, for the same price(E.G. Thermal safety), and not about performance capabilities.

I would like to stress that this IS a real issue of concern, as I have lost almost $1500 in profits in the last year, due to mistakes that I made that could have been prevented by a better design. Unfortunately, we must wait until someone DOES come up with a better design...




Quick!!! Whats the number for 911?
December 23, 2002 5:33:58 PM

No, no, no. I must not be making myself clear. I was only trying to point out that the Swiftec heat sink is easy to install. There is no prying or pushing. The heat sink included with the Athlon is harder to install than the P4 ones.

The Swiftec heat sink installation involves no prying or pushing. If you were using that heat sink I doubt you would have damaged any more Athlons than P4s.

I just installed this heat sink on an Athlon XP 2700+.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 23, 2002 5:38:39 PM

In fact the P4 system is a cam lock. While locking this system you slightly exceed the locked pressure. Then when the in the locked position the pressure is slightly reduced. That is how a cam lock works.

The Swiftec I am refering to approaches the required locking pressure with a spring loaded system. It never exceeds the locked pressure or operating pressure.

That would make it a less risky system.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 23, 2002 5:46:30 PM

I can understand about the swiftec, but, unfortunately, Swiftecs are not the stock heatsinks that come prepacked with the Athlon XP's I get....so I guess what I am saying is that on a stock vs stock setup, the Athlon design lacks.

Although, yes, I will agree that I like the Swiftec setups better, and do use them whenever I can con the customer into buying one...unless I can REALLY con them into a volcano 7 or 9 even...hehehe

But, due to somebody's idea of legal issues, I am stuck with what I am given, and until someone comes up with a better idea....



Quick!!! Whats the number for 911?
December 23, 2002 6:05:02 PM

Dude no offence or nothign but u said urself UVE wasted so much money cuz U broke the cpu's from improper HSF Instalation....no matter what....it is still ur fault....it is ur fault for not following the proper instructions/guidelines that comes with the retial package on how to install the HSF...ive done it numerous times also..and i do installs daily also......ive yet to brake even 1 CPU.....That stems from Durons, T-Birds, AXP's and even S370 Celeron's and PIII's.....

I Admit its obviously easier to just pul down the latches on the P4 HSF Design setup than grabbing a flathead screw driver....but none the less it still works and if u are careful and follow the instructions properly u wouldnt have any cracked or broken chips.......

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=13597" target="_new">-MeTaL RoCkEr</A>
December 23, 2002 6:20:01 PM

No offense taken, I was being honest, and actually was anticipating some constructive criticism. Thanx...LOL

However, aside from that, the point that I was making is that there needs to be a better design for the stock HSF's, and that would alleviate the increased risk of screwing up...

I will agree, that yes, I have hurried when I shouldn't have, and that breaking the CPU's was my fault. Then again, a company should be aware of the difficulties that their products make.

In operating my shop, I do make sure that I make it as easy for my customers as possible (And I believe this is GOOD business practice), so why should the companies that profer to me be any different? (And Yes, I have already fired off letters to the companies responsible for these designs) I have the same expectations of them, that I have for my business...



Quick!!! Whats the number for 911?
December 23, 2002 6:34:00 PM

Well I am glad to hear that...i realize my last response was quite harsh seems like thats how ive been writting as of late.....sorry about that.....But yes I agree a better design is needed....something similar to the P4's where instead of using the ZIFF socket pegs its a setup based around the MB with a whole retention bracket with sliders and such....or make the standard for all heatsinks use the 4 holes on the MB..that would be MUCH better than anything....basicaly there would be 4 clips that slide into the 4 holes...pull to retention clips and it holds the 2 on the top and the 2 on the bottom in place.....no what i mean ??

But liek is aid i think the P4 cooling setup is better....and the IHS is a good thing.....i think the reason AMD stopped usign them after the K6 series is because they realized how many ppl. were prying the IHS off there K6 series chips and putting the core directly onto the HSF bottom.....i dotn know if there is truly a coolign difference but IIRC Crashman said there was no difference as he pryed it off on a Tulyl Celery of his?? and also i believe Copenhagen did they same which is how he lost his first 1.4GHz Celery Tully..correct?? I dunno.....i woudl assume that having a bigger surface area would be better for cooling...btu also without the IHS that reduces costs on AMD's part also...

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=13597" target="_new">-MeTaL RoCkEr</A>
December 23, 2002 7:12:30 PM

Fair enough. The point I was trying to get across to xxsk8er101xx relating to heat sinks was the Swiftec eliminates the prying and so forth. I am really happy with the installation.

So you like the Volcano 7 or 9 better than the Swiftec? I have never used the Volcano.

Do you know if the Asus probe on the P4T-E is accurate at all. Mine reads 51 C CPU and 25 C mobo with a 2.0A P4. The ambient is about 21-22 C. I have the included heat sink on this setup.

On my A7N8X Deluxe, XP2700+ with the Swiftec MCXC370 I get 35 C CPU and 31 C mobo at about 20 C ambient.

I don't understand why the P4 is so high.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
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