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Dragons and CR

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Anonymous
August 10, 2005 6:45:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
(snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
chars survived due to good planning and buffing.

Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?

Robert Karlsson Svärd
- dragonslayer :-P

More about : dragons

August 10, 2005 7:15:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:45:02 +0200, Robert Karlsson Svärd
<rks@chello.se> raised a finger to the sky and proclaimed:

>Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
>Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
>(snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
>from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
>chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
>
>Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
>have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?
>
>Robert Karlsson Svärd
>- dragonslayer :-P

Nope - that sounds about right for a party of your size.

--
Either way, I hate you Count Chocula, if I didn't already.
- Drifter Bob, rec.games.frp.dnd
August 10, 2005 9:53:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:45:02 +0200, Robert Karlsson Svärd
<rks@chello.se> dared speak in front of ME:

>Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
>Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
>(snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
>from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
>chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
>
>Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
>have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?

Question: are you saying the encounter was easier or harder than the
CR implied (after accounting for allies + oversized party)?
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Anonymous
August 10, 2005 11:25:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Robert Karlsson Svärd wrote:
> Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
> Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
> (snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars
> ranging from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and
> all player chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
>
> Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
> have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?

As with all creatures, it depends a great deal upon how 'smart' it was
played (and how smart you were as a party). And 22 allies can go a long way
towards tipping the balance in any encounter.

--
Mark.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 2:39:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:45:02 +0200, Robert Karlsson Svärd <rks@chello.se>
scribed into the ether:

>Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
>Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
>(snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
>from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
>chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
>
>Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
>have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?

Err...the CR is based on a 4-member party. When you magnify your party by 8
times the recommended amount, of course it is going to distort the results.

I am curious about these other 22 elves...what level were they? A young
adult green carries a DC20 fear aura, which means that 1st and 2nd level
fighters/warriors would need to roll a 20 in order to not flee for their
lives, which means 1 or 2 would have been all that stuck around.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 10:55:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Robert Karlsson Svärd wrote:

> Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
> Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
> (snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
> from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
> chars survived due to good planning and buffing.

> Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
> have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?

In 3e, dragon CRs were lowballed, because they were supposed to be
tougher than regular monsters. The designers apparently didn't get that
this completely missed the point of the CR system.

In 3.5, they got a clue and fixed it. Dragon CRs in 3.5 aren't lowballed
anymore. The CR of a young adult green in 3e is 10; in 3.5, it's 11.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"You do your arguments no favor by insulting those you ought persuade."
-Greg Stolze, Rites of the Dragon
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 2:56:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Stephenls wrote:
> Robert Karlsson Svärd wrote:
>
> > Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
> > Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
> > (snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
> > from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
> > chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
>
> > Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
> > have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?
>
> In 3e, dragon CRs were lowballed, because they were supposed to be
> tougher than regular monsters. The designers apparently didn't get that
> this completely missed the point of the CR system.
>
> In 3.5, they got a clue and fixed it. Dragon CRs in 3.5 aren't lowballed
> anymore. The CR of a young adult green in 3e is 10; in 3.5, it's 11.

They didn't move it up enough. Their own guidelines for CR vs. HD
of a monster like a Dragon in the MM section on designing your own
monsters gives higher CR than the current values.

DougL
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 2:59:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:45:02 +0200, Robert Karlsson Svärd <rks@chello.se>
> scribed into the ether:
>
>
>>Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
>>Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
>>(snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
>
>>from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
>
>>chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
>>
>>Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
>>have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?
>
>
> Err...the CR is based on a 4-member party. When you magnify your party by 8
> times the recommended amount, of course it is going to distort the results.
>
> I am curious about these other 22 elves...what level were they? A young
> adult green carries a DC20 fear aura, which means that 1st and 2nd level
> fighters/warriors would need to roll a 20 in order to not flee for their
> lives, which means 1 or 2 would have been all that stuck around.
>

There was som kind of magical effect (probably from a certain item the
elves were after) that made them immune. One of the party members are an
elf an she was immune to.

Robert Karlsson Svärd
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 3:01:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:45:02 +0200, Robert Karlsson Svärd
> <rks@chello.se> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>
>>Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
>>Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
>>(snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
>
>>from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
>
>>chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
>>
>>Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
>>have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?
>
>
> Question: are you saying the encounter was easier or harder than the
> CR implied (after accounting for allies + oversized party)?

Answer: the encounter was too hard for a 4-lvl char party. Now we had
good support from a lot of elves but still just managed to finish it of.
Dragons are too tough!

Robert Karlsson Svärd
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 1:37:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:01:42 +0200, Robert Karlsson Svärd
<rks@chello.se> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Kaos wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:45:02 +0200, Robert Karlsson Svärd
> > <rks@chello.se> dared speak in front of ME:
> >
> >
> >>Last night we took out a young adult green dragon (CR 11) in
> >>Necromancergames "The Vault of Larin Karr". We were with 22 elves
> >>(snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we were six chars ranging
> >
> >>from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in five rounds and all player
> >
> >>chars survived due to good planning and buffing.
> >>
> >>Now: am I totally out of the crazy limbo daze when state that dragons
> >>have to low CR for their abilities/SA/SQ etc?
> >
> >
> > Question: are you saying the encounter was easier or harder than the
> > CR implied (after accounting for allies + oversized party)?
>
> Answer: the encounter was too hard for a 4-lvl char party. Now we had
> good support from a lot of elves but still just managed to finish it of.
> Dragons are too tough!

A CR11 encounter should be a 50/50 proposition for four 7th level
characters, and therefore for six 6th level characters. Depending on
the exact levels of your party and the support it sounds about right.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 7:36:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In a dizzying speach from his throne, Robert Karlsson Svärd
<rks@chello.se> imparted this wisdom:
>We were with 22 elves (snipers/swordbearers a cleric and a wiz) and we
>were six chars ranging from 5th lvl to 8th lvl. It was all over in
>five rounds and all player chars survived due to good planning and
>buffing.

Just curious, but what were the casualty counts amongst the elven
support?


--

Argentium Helm
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 8:22:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In a dizzying speach from his throne, Robert Karlsson Svärd
<rks@chello.se> imparted this wisdom:
>>Just curious, but what were the casualty counts amongst the elven
>>support?
>
>
>Six elven grunts and the cleric remained alive. The other were very
>dead, corroded with the acid breath of the dragon. The female elf
>warmage (lvl 5) was the only one doing real damage to the dragon - ~100
>hp during the five rounds - due to the "lesser orb of X" with no
>save/SR. She was down to -2 once. Then, when the dragon decided to go
>specifically for her, we had a lucky strike - a crit from a half-orc
>barbarian with a +4 mighty comp long bow - 30 hp dmg. Dead dragon.

Okay, now I see why you think the dragon was tough. When you said the
whole deal was done in just 5 rounds you gave me the impression that
the battle was too easy.


--

Argentium Helm
!