your opinion about all TCG you tested ?

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

Hello,
I did a simple thing, I copy the full list of TCG from potomac and I
would like that you write down your opinion about the one you tested
???
No more than 2 lines per game!!!
I don't know most of the game and it is possible to have some of them
cheap on ebay it is why I want to know the one which are good or bad!


..hack//enemy
7th Sea
Age of Empires
Arcadia
Babylon 5
Battletech
Beyblade
Bionicle
Buffy
Call of Cthulhu
Creepy Freaks
CrossGen
Cyberpunk
D&D Miniatures
DC HeroClix
DC/Marvel TCG (Upper Deck)
Deck Protectors
Doomtown
Doomtrooper
Dragonball Z/Dragonball GT
Duel Masters
Firestorm
Galactic Empires
Game of Thrones
Gaming Supplies
Guardians
>following the advice of some people I bought a couple of cheap box
(starter, booster and dagger isle)... I will test the game beginning
of july!

Harry Potter
Hercules
Highlander
Hum Aliens
Hyborian Gates
Illuminati
Initial D
L5R/LBS
Looney Tunes
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings Miniatures
Lost Colony
Mage Knight
Magic
>I played, liked it 5 years ago, but there is too much money
involve!!! I stopped!

Magic - Foreign
Magi-Nation
Marvel HeroClix
Marvel Recharge
Marvel/DC TCG (Upper Deck)
MechWarrior
Middle Earth
>tested , love the cards, but the game not too much.

MLB Showdown
Monster Rancher
Mythos
NBA Showdown
NeoPets
Netrunner
NFL Showdown
On The Edge
Ophidian 2350
Other/Unlisted Gaming Boxes
Overpower
>too easy, nothing amazing about this game!!!! don't buy it!

Pokemon
Rage
>I have a couple of deck and I keep all the werewolf for teh
collection... great to play once or twice a year, no more.

Redemption
RIFTS
Sailor Moon
Scooby Doo
Settlers of Catan (Board Game)
Shadowfist
Shadowrun
Simpsons
Spycraft
Star Trek
Star Wars CCG (Decipher)
Star Wars TCG (WOTC)
SW: Jedi Knights
SW: Young Jedi
Tomb Raider
Ultimate Combat
Vampire/Jyhad
>if you have a group of 4 of 5 friend to play, it is a great games. I
collect and play it as much as possible even if the cards are not
beautiful

WarCry
Warhammer 40K
Warlord
WCW Nitro
Wheel of Time
Wizard in Training
WWE Raw Deal
Wyvern
Xena
X-Files
Yu-Gi-Oh
YuYu Hakusho
106 answers Last reply
More about your opinion tested
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    Hey,


    Pokemon
    > Was good for a while, but when they added 300 more it went down.
    Redemption
    > I have played it for a year and I think it rocks! Plenty of strategy
    along with Biblical principles.

    "cure" <cure@caramail.com> wrote in message
    news:64a19912.0406070406.698e0dd8@posting.google.com...
    > Hello,
    > I did a simple thing, I copy the full list of TCG from potomac and I
    > would like that you write down your opinion about the one you tested
    > ???
    > No more than 2 lines per game!!!
    > I don't know most of the game and it is possible to have some of them
    > cheap on ebay it is why I want to know the one which are good or bad!
    >
    >
    > .hack//enemy
    > 7th Sea
    > Age of Empires
    > Arcadia
    > Babylon 5
    > Battletech
    > Beyblade
    > Bionicle
    > Buffy
    > Call of Cthulhu
    > Creepy Freaks
    > CrossGen
    > Cyberpunk
    > D&D Miniatures
    > DC HeroClix
    > DC/Marvel TCG (Upper Deck)
    > Deck Protectors
    > Doomtown
    > Doomtrooper
    > Dragonball Z/Dragonball GT
    > Duel Masters
    > Firestorm
    > Galactic Empires
    > Game of Thrones
    > Gaming Supplies
    > Guardians
    > >following the advice of some people I bought a couple of cheap box
    > (starter, booster and dagger isle)... I will test the game beginning
    > of july!
    >
    > Harry Potter
    > Hercules
    > Highlander
    > Hum Aliens
    > Hyborian Gates
    > Illuminati
    > Initial D
    > L5R/LBS
    > Looney Tunes
    > Lord of the Rings
    > Lord of the Rings Miniatures
    > Lost Colony
    > Mage Knight
    > Magic
    > >I played, liked it 5 years ago, but there is too much money
    > involve!!! I stopped!
    >
    > Magic - Foreign
    > Magi-Nation
    > Marvel HeroClix
    > Marvel Recharge
    > Marvel/DC TCG (Upper Deck)
    > MechWarrior
    > Middle Earth
    > >tested , love the cards, but the game not too much.
    >
    > MLB Showdown
    > Monster Rancher
    > Mythos
    > NBA Showdown
    > NeoPets
    > Netrunner
    > NFL Showdown
    > On The Edge
    > Ophidian 2350
    > Other/Unlisted Gaming Boxes
    > Overpower
    > >too easy, nothing amazing about this game!!!! don't buy it!
    >
    > Pokemon
    > Rage
    > >I have a couple of deck and I keep all the werewolf for teh
    > collection... great to play once or twice a year, no more.
    >
    > Redemption
    > RIFTS
    > Sailor Moon
    > Scooby Doo
    > Settlers of Catan (Board Game)
    > Shadowfist
    > Shadowrun
    > Simpsons
    > Spycraft
    > Star Trek
    > Star Wars CCG (Decipher)
    > Star Wars TCG (WOTC)
    > SW: Jedi Knights
    > SW: Young Jedi
    > Tomb Raider
    > Ultimate Combat
    > Vampire/Jyhad
    > >if you have a group of 4 of 5 friend to play, it is a great games. I
    > collect and play it as much as possible even if the cards are not
    > beautiful
    >
    > WarCry
    > Warhammer 40K
    > Warlord
    > WCW Nitro
    > Wheel of Time
    > Wizard in Training
    > WWE Raw Deal
    > Wyvern
    > Xena
    > X-Files
    > Yu-Gi-Oh
    > YuYu Hakusho
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    > I don't know most of the game and it is possible to have some of them
    > cheap on ebay it is why I want to know the one which are good or bad!

    One of the best sources of information for this is:

    http://www.rpweld3.com/reviews/ccgreviews.html

    Sadly, he stopped going this as of last June (June/2004). But just about
    any
    game that came out before that time was reviewed. If you are interested in
    getting into any of the older/ish games, this is the place to start learning
    about
    it.

    Sorrow
    --
    Why did the chicken cross the road?
    "To die. Alone. In the rain." - Ernest Hemingway
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    > Lord of the Rings
    I have not played this game, but did want too until they came out with so
    many cards so fast. I don't have that much time or money
    >
    > Redemption
    Played for 5 years. It is more fun when there are several advanced
    players. Often there are only U14 around. But has a great group here.

    > Settlers of Catan (Board Game)
    Great Board game. Becareful where you but though b/c it's as pricey as
    all the other Adventure Board Games. see www.boardgamegeek.com
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    cure wrote:

    > Hello,
    > I did a simple thing, I copy the full list of TCG from potomac and I
    > would like that you write down your opinion about the one you tested
    > ???
    > No more than 2 lines per game!!!
    > I don't know most of the game and it is possible to have some of them
    > cheap on ebay it is why I want to know the one which are good or bad!
    >
    >
    > .hack//enemy
    It's Decipher. Below I will detail why I will never buy another Decipher
    game.

    > 7th Sea
    Has been discontinued. Interesting game, but some of the play mechanics
    seem a little unbalanced (why would you choose boarding over gunnery?)

    > Deck Protectors
    Um, this isn't a TCG. They're card sleeves.

    > Doomtown
    Has been discontinued. Excellent game. You actually build a geography; the
    game has a wonderful requirement that you must learn how to *maneuver*.

    > Gaming Supplies
    Um, not a TCG. It's supplies for use with TCGs, like it says.

    > Guardians
    >>following the advice of some people I bought a couple of cheap box
    > (starter, booster and dagger isle)... I will test the game beginning
    > of july!
    I played this a little. It had some interesting aspects but in the end
    didn't catch me. Part of the problem was the art, which was certainly
    very nicely done but just wasn't to my taste.
    >
    > Harry Potter
    I believe this has been discontinued as well. Overly simple. Might be
    good for younger players.

    > Initial D
    An interesting concept; very different. Only seen a small demo deck, so
    it's difficult for me to evaluate how well they carried it off.

    > L5R/LBS
    Two different games; Legend of the Five Rings and Legend of the Burning
    Sands. Set in the same world, but different games and not interchangeable.

    Legend of the Five Rings
    Excellent game. Subtle gameplay and a storyline that cannot be matched
    (and which you can contribute to by playing in sanctioned tournaments).

    Legend of the Burning Sands
    Has been discontinued. An interesting game that got caught by its confusing
    similarity to L5R and AEG's ill-conceived "Rolling Thunder" release concept.

    > Magic
    >>I played, liked it 5 years ago, but there is too much money
    > involve!!! I stopped!
    You might want to look into this again. Standard (Type II) has become the
    reigning tournament type. While it's a pain to see your cards rotate out
    of Standard, it's nice to see $30 World Championship Decks (and yes, there
    have been some).
    >
    > Magic - Foreign
    This is just Magic cards printed in foreign languages.

    > Netrunner
    One of the best TCGs ever made. Sadly, it has been discontinued. Unique
    concepts, excellent gameplay.

    > Pokemon
    Unbalanced and overly simple, IMHO. May become the second TCG I decide
    to sell out of.

    > Shadowfist
    Nice game, excellent multiplayer, nonstop action. Great game if you
    love a game where a card in play's average lifetime is two or three turns.

    > Star Trek
    Bleh. The only CCG I ever sold out of. Decipher is in the business of
    power rares and clumsy, inadequate fixes. Can you say "Bridge Crew Deck"?

    > Star Wars CCG (Decipher)
    And the other reason I will never buy a Decipher game. "The main characters
    will be commons!" "Wait, no, we lied, they're rares. Play the third alien
    from the left in the Cantina scene if you have to play your commons. This
    makes it more fun to collect!"

    > Vampire/Jyhad
    >>if you have a group of 4 of 5 friend to play, it is a great games. I
    > collect and play it as much as possible even if the cards are not
    > beautiful
    Exactly my take. The best multiplayer CCG ever made, but you can't
    really play it with only two people.

    > Yu-Gi-Oh
    From what I can tell, this has a nasty tendency to degenerate into, "I have
    the biggest monster, so you're helpless" because you can't gang up several
    small creatures on the big one like you can in almost any other CCG.
    Ways around it, but not enough.

    --
    Christopher Mattern

    "Which one you figure tracked us?"
    "The ugly one, sir."
    "...Could you be more specific?"
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    Okay... this could take a while, but what the heck.


    > 7th Sea
    RPG or CCG? I've played both. Don't get much of a chance to play the RPG
    anymore, but my collection of cards is hard to rival. Love the game and
    mourn its passing.

    > Babylon 5
    Again, what version? Miniature, RPG or CCG? I've played the CCG, and it's
    kind of boring. I know a lot of people who love it, but I could never get
    into a card game that dealt with politics.

    > Battletech
    CCG is cool.

    > Beyblade
    Fun to play with my 8 year old. We collect the tops.

    > Bionicle
    Any particular game? There must be a dozen or more out there.

    >Doomtown
    One of the best and most innovative CCGs ever made. Wish I could find more
    people to play it with.

    > Firestorm
    The most strategic sci-fi CCG ever made. Love the game, the art and the
    story. This one makes you think like no other game I've encountered. Try
    it!

    > Galactic Empires
    Ugh. Have a ton of cards with mediocre artwork and vague instructions.
    Never have figured out how to play it.

    > Game of Thrones
    One of the best looking CCGs. Gorgeous artwork that fans of the books will
    love. The game itself is okay, and we play it often.

    > Harry Potter
    More fun than it appears. Some love it, some hate it. You'll have to
    decide for yourself. Persoanlly, my kids and I love it.

    > Highlander
    Boring.

    >L5R/LBS
    Like them both. Wish I could find the Awakening cards for LBS.

    > Looney Tunes
    Blah. Not as much fun as you might think.

    > Lord of the Rings
    Which version? CCG is decent enough. Never got incolved with the
    miniatures.

    > Mage Knight
    Sold my collection of 500 pieces when it started to suffer from Magic
    syndrome. Too big, too fast, impossible to collect.

    > Magic
    Ugh, don't get me started. You have to be a millionaire to keep up.

    > Magi-Nation
    Cute game, anime artwork. We play but don't collect seriously.

    > MechWarrior
    I have about 200 figures for a game I've never played.

    > Middle Earth
    Again, lots of cards but never played the game. I've heard it's kind of
    boring and long.

    >Pokemon
    The only CCG my wife will play with me. Stopped buying it years ago.

    > Rage
    The initial releases were cool, and the game rocked. The revamped version
    blew.

    > Star Wars TCG (WOTC)
    Play it regularly and have a decent collection. Nice and quick, easy to
    learn and teach. Good game.

    > SW: Jedi Knights
    YUCK. They thought anything with "Star Wars" on it would sell. Horrible
    game.

    > SW: Young Jedi
    Got it when it first game out, played twice, stopped buying it. Not a bad
    game.

    > Tomb Raider
    More fun than you'd think to look at it. Good for solo play too, which
    makes it unique.

    > Warhammer 40K
    Minis or CCG? Played the card game for awhile, but had to stop due to $
    issues.

    > Warlord
    Love it, demo it, will play it anytime.

    > Wheel of Time
    If possible, even more boring than Babylon 5. Only reason I bought it is
    because I love the books.

    > Wizard in Training
    Cheap knockoff of Harry Potter that came out first and died quickly. Not
    bad to play, but kind of complicated for kids.

    > Wyvern
    Collected the cards, played once. Dull.

    > X-Files
    CCG version of Clue. Nice attempt, but no depth and has none of the
    excitement of the show.

    > Yu-Gi-Oh
    Kind of iffy on this one. Have two starter decks and that's it. Play
    occasionally.

    Hope this helps you!

    Maj
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    There are a couple missing that I've played that i'll include:

    > Battletech
    Demonstrated it quite a bit and it's certainly easy to teach. I feel the
    game is too 'linear' and that the dice detract from the gameplay.

    > Call of Cthulhu
    It's not out yet. I worry about rumours of a Fantasy Flight 'rare card =
    power card' ethos. Certainly has some fantastic artwork though. I'll give it
    a try.

    > Doomtown
    Demonstrated it a couple of times, but by the time I was in a position to
    buy into it the rolling thunder release program had put me off entirely.

    > Illuminati
    Interesting and fun. Broadly speaking.

    > ::Judge Dredd::
    I liked the concept and the artwork. The best strategies were far too
    obvious and the game is now out of print.

    > L5R
    I had to demonstrate this game and I hate it. Loath it even. Too long, too
    complicated to teach easily and just not rewarding in any fashion. blerg.

    > Magic
    Played it competitively for years. To be as good as I would want to be to
    start playing it again, I would need to dedicate time that I no longer have.
    An amazing game.

    > Mythos
    I quite liked the concept but the replay value is a bit limited to my mind.

    > Netrunner
    A great game that doesn't lend itself to tournament play, which may have led
    to its demise. The concept is great, although I think it could have be
    executed better.

    > ::Spellfire::
    I've had some good games of this. Really. Lots of cards, the latest rules
    and balanced decks are required I think. There are worse CCGs...

    > Star Trek
    ....and this is one of them. Power rares are an endemic problem of Decipher
    CCGs. Discuss.

    > Vampire/Jyhad
    With 4-5 players it's amazing. A wonderful game that i'll probably never
    bore of playing. The amount of errata is unfortunate but probably necessary
    to keep the game alive.

    Matt.
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    On 7 Jun 2004 05:06:10 -0700, cure wrote:

    >I did a simple thing, I copy the full list of TCG from potomac and I
    >would like that you write down your opinion about the one you tested
    >No more than 2 lines per game!!!

    I've bought and played many of these but don't want to waste time on
    the stinkers. It's not smart to try and do more than one CCG and the
    one to go for from that list is undoubtedly Shadowfist. The reasons
    are:

    * Longevity - first published in 1995 and still going strong with a
    new expansion recently and another one coming later this year. And
    remarkably, no cards are banned, retired or otherwise unplayable.

    * Multi-player - makes it more fun and balanced than most CCG

    * Good theme - action movies, kung fu, sorcery, guns, monkeys -
    something for everyone.

    * Good looks - the original cards used many of the same artists as
    Magic and the latest set has some of the most gorgeous art ever. And
    it hasn't changed its layout or card backs unlike many other
    long-lived CCGs.

    An honourable mention should go to Doomtown which still has its fans
    but is quite moribund now. Die-hard fans should come to Origins where
    the last of the organised events are to be found.

    Andrew
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    >> Highlander
    >Boring.

    How so? It's had many cards errata'd (like MtG) to make the game more
    playable-overpowered promo cards nearly destroyed the game in the early days.
    That was boring, watching my opponen play while I could only draw and discard.

    It does help to be a big fan of the movies/TV show.

    >
    >> Magi-Nation
    >Cute game, anime artwork. We play but don't collect seriously.
    >
    This is my current favorite game, but sadly it looks like the company will go
    under before releasing the new expansion.

    Just my 2¢
    Dave
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    "cure" <cure@caramail.com> wrote in message
    news:64a19912.0406070406.698e0dd8@posting.google.com...
    > Hello,
    > I did a simple thing, I copy the full list of TCG from potomac and I
    > would like that you write down your opinion about the one you tested
    > ???
    > No more than 2 lines per game!!!
    > I don't know most of the game and it is possible to have some of them
    > cheap on ebay it is why I want to know the one which are good or bad!
    >
    >
    > Battletech
    Yuck. Doesn't do justice to the source material. I didn't like the
    artwork, and its got that dice mechanic... ;-)

    > Game of Thrones
    I heard good things about it in early release, but have also heard that the
    expansions make it a bit less fun, due to some serious escalation.

    > Guardians
    Fun stuff, if it can be found for cheap.

    > Hyborian Gates
    Awful, awful, awful.

    > Illuminati
    On principle, I must support any TCG which encourages the consumption of
    coffee while playing...

    >Imajica (inserted, just becasue I happen to remember it...)
    Good game mechanics, but the game's theme is absolutely inaccessible to
    anyone who hasn't read the book.

    > L5R
    This game never kept my attention, despite a healthy local playing
    community, and my own interest in its theme.

    > Mage Knight
    Ultra-rare super mega foil holo chase cards go 3D... If you can convince a
    someone to play a limited format, it can be fun and challenging.

    > Magic
    You too can jump on the bandwagon, and have your collection obsoleted every
    year! As with most things, the most popular is never the best.

    > MechWarrior
    DA suffers less from Ultra-Rare-Super-Mega-Foil-Holo-Chase Syndrome than its
    predecessor, Mage Knight, and is better for it. Multi-story tall combat
    robots are always a plus, too...

    > Mythos
    I actually liked this, but games could stagnate from each player being able
    to muck with thier opponent's strategy moreso than being able to accomplish
    their own.

    > Netrunner
    Very nice mechanics. The genre got stale about the same time as William
    Gibson and Bruce Sterling did, though... Be honest, who's actually read all
    of _Virtual Light_? :-P

    > On The Edge
    See Guardians.

    > Rage
    Brrrrroken. My own distaste for the dishonesty of Ryan Dancey with WotC's
    non-Magic gaming community of the mid-late 90's raises the bile factor
    towards its re-release.

    > Shadowfist
    Great genre. Good, solid game. Re-playability is decent. People tell me
    that multi-player is fun, but TTBOMK I've never been in a room with two
    other players...

    > Vampire/Jyhad
    My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best Multiplayer
    TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when
    released to the masses, he went back to the drawing board and got it right.
    VTES is the result. I gush... Frankly, I'm so biased in my love of this
    game, listening to me going on about it is probably not wise.

    > Wyvern
    Yuck. So your Big Draw for your TCG is Dragons..? Why do they all look
    like Chia Pets, then... Horrible artwork, horrible mechanics.

    > X-Files
    It seems somehow fitting that the TCG for X-Files fans is a convoluted
    version of two-player solitaire...

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    > > Netrunner
    > Very nice mechanics. The genre got stale about the same time as William
    > Gibson and Bruce Sterling did, though... Be honest, who's actually read
    all
    > of _Virtual Light_? :-P

    How do you see that the genre got stale? Even so, how does that bear on the
    CCG? As a game, Netrunner is quite fun and challenging to play.

    > > Rage
    > Brrrrroken. My own distaste for the dishonesty of Ryan Dancey with WotC's
    > non-Magic gaming community of the mid-late 90's raises the bile factor
    > towards its re-release.

    Have you taken a look at 2ndEd Rage (Rage Across Las Vegas)? It's actually
    very balanced and fun to play.

    > > Vampire/Jyhad
    > My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    Multiplayer
    > TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when
    > released to the masses, he went back to the drawing board and got it
    right.
    > VTES is the result. I gush... Frankly, I'm so biased in my love of this
    > game, listening to me going on about it is probably not wise.

    It was quite good. Up until Camarilla Edition, anyway. But that's just one
    man's opinion.

    Sorrow
    ---
    I keep telling them that I think they're out to get me.
    They ask me if I feel remorse and I answer, "Why of course!
    There's so much more I could have done if they'd let me!"
    So it's Rorschach and Prozac and everything is groovy
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:33:48 GMT, David Zopf wrote:

    >> Vampire/Jyhad
    >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best Multiplayer
    >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when...

    Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG. It is still retains
    Magic's dwindling life mechanism and is all about eliminating other
    players from the game. This is ok for a two-player game like Magic -
    the game ends when one player is out. But it's a poor basis for a
    multiplayer game. Play a fun, theme deck and *bam* you're ousted and
    go off to weep while the other players finish the game. And a game
    can take hours to finish. While you're waiting, you can look through
    the game's art and then tear your eyes out. A more suitable title
    would be the best TCG for masochistic Goths ...

    Meanwhile, as I said in the other post, the best multiplayer TCG is
    Shadowfist. Everyone gets to play the game until it's complete and
    the process is usually more upbeat - building to a crescendo rather
    than fading into nothingness.

    But I'm reminded of the last episode of Angel, "Not Fade Away", which
    aired here yesterday. And I really must go do something about that.
    Grrrr...

    Andrew
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    > >> Vampire/Jyhad
    > >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    Multiplayer
    > >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when...
    > Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.

    This is, of course, your opinion and to which you are certainly allowed.
    However, it was voted the "Best Multiplayer TCG Ever" by the readers
    of InQuest magazine.

    Sorrow
    ---
    "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War.
    Our war is a spiritual war. Our depression is our lives."
    - Tyler Durden
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Andrew S. Davidson" <ad@csi.com> wrote in message
    news:pm9ec0p3l506rjjbf6o9pnvsrepllftjnq@4ax.com...
    > On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:33:48 GMT, David Zopf wrote:
    >
    > >> Vampire/Jyhad
    > >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    Multiplayer
    > >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when...
    >
    > Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.

    Why do Shadowfist players come across so repulsively arrogant, elitist and
    condescending in on-line fora? I've met you IRL and you seem a perfectly
    reasonable fellow, likewise the other 'fist players involved in the 'dice'
    discussion the other month were really personable once they stopped
    over-reacting and started posting constructively.

    I swear this sort of attitude puts people off playing Shadowfist. And for
    what? What a pointless discussion. I don't care what game you end up playing
    Cure as long as you enjoy it.


    Matt Green
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <2ioojjFpgqr3U1@uni-berlin.de>, Sorrow <jcboget@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >> >> Vampire/Jyhad
    >> >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    >Multiplayer
    >> >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when...
    >> Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    >This is, of course, your opinion and to which you are certainly allowed.

    No, it's just correct.
    A vast majority of those who have tried both Fist and Jyhad consider Fist
    considerably better.

    >However, it was voted the "Best Multiplayer TCG Ever" by the readers
    >of InQuest magazine.

    Which is a good sample why?


    --
    Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,)
    --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'
    /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\
    /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-'
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <ca7chh$d7q$1@sparta.btinternet.com>,
    Matt Green <matt@rid0utass0ciates.c0.uk> wrote:
    >Why do Shadowfist players come across so repulsively arrogant, elitist and
    >condescending in on-line fora?

    Trash talk, mostly.
    Note that we get on each other's nerves sometimes too.


    >I've met you IRL and you seem a perfectly
    >reasonable fellow, likewise the other 'fist players involved in the 'dice'
    >discussion the other month were really personable once they stopped
    >over-reacting and started posting constructively.

    Went the other way too, I'll note -- there were a lot of annoying
    miscommuncations early in the "dice" thread, which turned into a useful
    conversation once some of them were smoothed out a bit.

    I'll note that I have something of an "old usenet" style, which tends to cover
    both not "suffering (apparent) fools gladly" as well as a few other things.

    >I swear this sort of attitude puts people off playing Shadowfist. And for
    >what? What a pointless discussion. I don't care what game you end up playing
    >Cure as long as you enjoy it.

    Absolutely. But discussion can be fruitful anyway.

    BTW, if one is interested in trying Fist without having to invest in
    cardstock and all that garbage, there's now a way to try it, for free, online
    (at least if, unlike me, you have a Windows box).


    --
    Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,)
    --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'
    /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\
    /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-'
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Joshua Kronengold" <mneme@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
    news:tJCdnWJfHaH73lrdRVn-hg@io.com...
    > In article <2ioojjFpgqr3U1@uni-berlin.de>, Sorrow <jcboget@yahoo.com>
    wrote:
    > >> >> Vampire/Jyhad
    > >> >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    > >Multiplayer
    > >> >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic
    when...
    > >> Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    > >This is, of course, your opinion and to which you are certainly allowed.
    >
    > No, it's just correct.
    > A vast majority of those who have tried both Fist and Jyhad consider Fist
    > considerably better.
    >
    > >However, it was voted the "Best Multiplayer TCG Ever" by the readers
    > >of InQuest magazine.
    >
    > Which is a good sample why?

    Because its the Only sample. There are not enough fist players to get a
    statistically significant sampling.

    Now if you can pull off another vote and have a higher turn out than the
    inquest vote, then you can make a claim that fist is better. Until then
    Vtes is supreme.

    Raille
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Andrew S. Davidson" <ad@csi.com> wrote in message
    news:pm9ec0p3l506rjjbf6o9pnvsrepllftjnq@4ax.com...
    > On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:33:48 GMT, David Zopf wrote:
    >
    > >> Vampire/Jyhad
    > >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    Multiplayer
    > >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when...
    >
    > Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    Sorry, but it is, too, Troll... (Nyah, nyah! thpffft! etc... Who peed in
    _your_ Cheerios this morning..? I thought this was an opinion thread, and
    not an Andrew S. Davidson opinion thread. You'll be happy to know, I've
    altered the header title appropriately :P )

    > It is still retains
    > Magic's dwindling life mechanism and is all about eliminating other
    > players from the game. This is ok for a two-player game like Magic -
    > the game ends when one player is out. But it's a poor basis for a
    > multiplayer game. Play a fun, theme deck and *bam* you're ousted and
    > go off to weep while the other players finish the game.
    ....Or start another game with others so ousted. Note, if you agree with
    others as to the relative competitive level of decks, this doesn't happen in
    casual play. If you attend a tournament with a fun, theme deck, you should
    have the sense to know ahead of time that you'll be sitting around a lot...

    > And a game can take hours to finish.
    For inexperienced players, yes. I'll admit the slow play early on tends to
    convince a lot of people to not stick with the game. Most groups with even
    a moderate level of experience can reduce game lengths to less than two
    hours, often less than an hour. If your attention span cannot tolerate
    that, well then, you shouldn't be playing a multiplayer game... As with all
    games, circumstances of deadlock can arise.

    > While you're waiting, you can look through
    > the game's art and then tear your eyes out. A more suitable title
    > would be the best TCG for masochistic Goths ...
    >
    Andrew, you're going to make an excellent old person someday (soon), you
    crotchety old fart... That aside, the majority of the VTES players out
    there aren't from the goth subculture, nor are they Vampire RPG types. The
    typical VTES player is a strategic-minded gamer with the rare trait of
    actually enjoying social interaction while gaming. As to the artwork,
    everyone has their preferences. I like many of the (non-Christopher Shy)
    vampire portaits, and have my favorite artists for the game (Kieran Yanner
    is a recent fave). The artword for VTES strikes a wide range of quality, if
    only becuse there are now so many cards... By contrast (and since you seem
    to _want_ to get in a 'my opinion is worth more than yours' contest), the
    cartoonish style of Shadowfist is cute, but approaches tedium quickly for
    me. I _do_ like LA Williams' "Hopping Vampire", though, even if it does
    have two legs...

    > Meanwhile, as I said in the other post, the best multiplayer TCG is
    > Shadowfist.
    Again, the popularity of Shadowfist is so deplorable, I cannot really
    comment other than from a read-through of the multiplayer rules.

    > Everyone gets to play the game until it's complete and
    > the process is usually more upbeat - building to a crescendo rather
    > than fading into nothingness.
    >
    Conversely, dog-piling a single player is much easier (even encouraged) in
    Shadowfist's environment. Just surviving as someone else's Tool until the
    end of a multiplayer game can often be more of a bore than getting ousted,
    and moving on strightaway to the next game at another table. Say, come to
    think of it, a poorly built or thematic deck in multiplayer Shadowfist would
    roughly result in the same effect as in VTES. The only difference; you have
    to play it out to the bitter end...

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <UnJxc.6834$ak3.4623@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>,
    David Zopf <david_zopf@snet.net> wrote:
    >"Andrew S. Davidson" <ad@csi.com> wrote in message
    >news:pm9ec0p3l506rjjbf6o9pnvsrepllftjnq@4ax.com...
    >> Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    >Sorry, but it is, too, Troll... (Nyah, nyah! thpffft! etc... Who peed in
    >_your_ Cheerios this morning..?

    Because someone disagrees with you does not mean they're a troll

    Aside from that...you're wrong.

    >only becuse there are now so many cards... By contrast (and since you seem
    >to _want_ to get in a 'my opinion is worth more than yours' contest), the
    >cartoonish style of Shadowfist is cute, but approaches tedium quickly for
    >me.

    Fist does not have a single art style.

    >Again, the popularity of Shadowfist is so deplorable, I cannot really
    >comment other than from a read-through of the multiplayer rules.

    You can play online...

    >and moving on strightaway to the next game at another table. Say, come to
    >think of it, a poorly built or thematic deck in multiplayer Shadowfist would
    >roughly result in the same effect as in VTES. The only difference; you have
    >to play it out to the bitter end...

    Nope. There's always a chance, if you can seize your time -- the very factors
    that allow multiple players to gang up to take down, or more often, slow down,
    a leader also allow a weaker player to grab a win if the table exhausts
    itself.

    Unless, of course, you are sitting for two hours with one card left in your
    deck and a hand full of junk (but then, you -can- always just discard cards
    and force yourself out of the game, since running through your deck is the one
    way to "oust" yourself in Fist).


    --
    Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,)
    --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;'
    /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\
    /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-'
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    "Sorrow" <jcboget@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:2iods8FonpijU1@uni-berlin.de...
    > > > Netrunner
    > > Very nice mechanics. The genre got stale about the same time as William
    > > Gibson and Bruce Sterling did, though... Be honest, who's actually read
    > all
    > > of _Virtual Light_? :-P
    >
    > How do you see that the genre got stale?
    Oh, I dunno... The whole haxx0r v. Eeev1l.c0rp bit seems horribly cliche'
    to me by now. As with everything else in my post, its just opinion...

    > Even so, how does that bear on the
    > CCG? As a game, Netrunner is quite fun and challenging to play.
    >
    I agree. Hence the first three words written...

    > > > Rage
    > > Brrrrroken. My own distaste for the dishonesty of Ryan Dancey with
    WotC's
    > > non-Magic gaming community of the mid-late 90's raises the bile factor
    > > towards its re-release.
    >
    > Have you taken a look at 2ndEd Rage (Rage Across Las Vegas)? It's
    actually
    > very balanced and fun to play.
    >
    As I mentioned, the bile factor is associated (however unfairly) with Ryan
    Dancey, and not Rage 2ed, per se. I didn't look at Rage 2ed, and wouldn't
    bother with it now (my free gaming time is seriously limited). Not unless
    Legbiter made me. ;-)

    > > > Vampire/Jyhad
    > > My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    > Multiplayer
    > > TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when
    > > released to the masses, he went back to the drawing board and got it
    > right.
    > > VTES is the result. I gush... Frankly, I'm so biased in my love of
    this
    > > game, listening to me going on about it is probably not wise.
    >
    > It was quite good. Up until Camarilla Edition, anyway.

    Everyone has reasons for deciding to try a new game, and for leaving old
    ones. I can't say I agree with your reasons, but I can respect you're right
    to them...

    > But that's just one
    > man's opinion.
    >
    and that _was_ the point of this thread, which seems to have escaped Some
    (ahem!!!)

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <133b01c4b2342ec66dc40c3a4a9638b8@news.teranews.com>,
    Raille <raille@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Joshua Kronengold" <mneme@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
    >news:tJCdnWJfHaH73lrdRVn-hg@io.com...
    >> In article <2ioojjFpgqr3U1@uni-berlin.de>, Sorrow <jcboget@yahoo.com>
    >wrote:
    >> >> >> Vampire/Jyhad
    >> >> >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    >> >> >Multiplayer TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the
    >> >> >flaws of Magic when...
    >> >> Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    >> >This is, of course, your opinion and to which you are certainly allowed.
    >>
    >> No, it's just correct.

    It's a matter of opinion. I don't have one, not having ever played
    Vampire. Shadowfist is a very good multiplayer game, however. (It is
    possible that I may be biased. :)

    >> A vast majority of those who have tried both Fist and Jyhad consider Fist
    >> considerably better.
    >>
    >> >However, it was voted the "Best Multiplayer TCG Ever" by the readers
    >> >of InQuest magazine.
    >>
    >> Which is a good sample why?
    >
    >Because its the Only sample. There are not enough fist players to get a
    >statistically significant sampling.

    Yes there are.

    >Now if you can pull off another vote and have a higher turn out than the
    >inquest vote, then you can make a claim that fist is better. Until then
    >Vtes is supreme.

    If people who have played Vampire but not Shadowfist think Vampire is
    the best multiplayer CCG ever, does that mean they are right, or that
    they have not played the better game?

    (Of course, the same can be said of those who have played Shadowfist
    but not Vampire, who think Shadowfist is the best.)

    Popularity polls only work when those polled have sufficient
    familiarity with the subject. Due to the expense of following a CCG,
    most people don't widely sample the field. Consider what CCG would win
    an InQuest poll for the best CCG ever. It it really the best, or just
    the most popular?
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Raille wrote:
    >
    > Because its the Only sample. There are not enough fist players to get a
    > statistically significant sampling.
    >
    > Now if you can pull off another vote and have a higher turn out than the
    > inquest vote, then you can make a claim that fist is better. Until then
    > Vtes is supreme.

    Quantity is not quality.

    Just because a minor majority voted George Bush to the White House does
    not mean he is the best president.

    Jyhad sure is the best Multiplayer TCG, I agree, but not because so many
    people say so. It just IS very good.

    And well, basically there haven't been that many Multiplayer TVGs, and
    even VTES is not doing too great. It has a steady group of loyal
    followers, but so does Quake2 (the dead computergame).

    Pro's about Jyhad/VTES:
    -it's not over in 5-10 minutes
    -you have to actually think
    -you have to talk to other players (coherent talk, not just 'Lightning
    Bolt on your Hypnotic Spectre')
    -(in Jyhad at least) the cards are pretty and dark :)
    -it's about vampires, how cool can you get?
    -it was built to be multiplayer, and is fun for all players. I've played
    10-player games that lasted till sunrise (some players suddenly had to
    leave at that time *gg*) and were interesting all through the game. And
    yeah, some were ousted before it ended. Didn't see them sulk, they just
    stayed to watch.

    Con's?
    -They changed the card's backs.
    -They tried to copy Magic for too long and wanted VTES to be as succesful.

    //Doc.

    --
    "Wees jezelf, er zijn al zoveel anderen" - Loesje

    begin Your_MS_program_incorrectly_interprets_this_as_an_attachment.txt
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 10:30:31 -0500, Sorrow wrote:

    >This is, of course, your opinion and to which you are certainly allowed.
    >However, it was voted the "Best Multiplayer TCG Ever" by the readers
    >of InQuest magazine.

    No, it wasn't a vote. It was a bit of fluff by the staff writers.
    The title of the article was "Lord of Chaos" and what they were
    thinking of was what they call chaos games, "a game where eight ain't
    enough". I suppose that's why they included Magic the Gathering - a
    game that doesn't have any proper multiplayer rules as I recall - just
    a bunch of variant formats.

    Their selections were LotR, Magic, Game of Thrones, B5 and Vampire.
    Read what they had to say about Vampire. "Two is okay; four is
    ideal". They didn't even know that the tournament standard for
    Vampire is five players. Clueless.

    Andrew
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Sez Andrew S. Davidson:

    : Meanwhile, as I said in the other post, the best multiplayer TCG is
    : Shadowfist. Everyone gets to play the game until it's complete and
    : the process is usually more upbeat - building to a crescendo rather
    : than fading into nothingness.

    He's right, you know.

    Bob Rossney
    rbr@well.com
  24. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "The Doctor" <DOK@freemail.nl> wrote in message
    news:40C77CF9.8090208@freemail.nl...

    : Quantity is not quality.
    :
    : Just because a minor majority voted George Bush to the White House does
    : not mean he is the best president.

    A minor majority of Supreme Court justices, even. A minority of, you know,
    voters.

    Not that I wish to besmirch InQuest's methodology by comparison.

    Bob Rossney
    rbr@well.com
  25. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Sez Teemu T Vilen:

    : Most games work a bit like Chez Geek (for example). Everyone goes
    : forward and the first to cross the line wins. In most games there's
    : either little you can do to stop someone from winning with interesting
    : mechanics or table dynamics or, the outcome of the game is determined
    : mostly by luck and the cards people (happen to) have in hand. Games like
    : these wont last very long as anything but casual entertainment in a bar
    : twice a year.

    Are you talking about Shadowfist? Because if so, you're sadly mistaken. A
    game in which everyone is trying to win on every turn is a game between
    people who haven't learned how to play the game well.

    It's sort of like saying that VtES isn't a good multi-player game because
    you can't attack the person across the table from you.

    Bob Rossney
    rbr@well.com
  26. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Sez "Matt Green"

    : > >> Vampire/Jyhad
    : > >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    Multiplayer
    : > >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when...
    : >
    : > Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    :
    : Why do Shadowfist players come across so repulsively arrogant, elitist and
    : condescending in on-line fora?

    "[VtES] deserves the 'Best Multiplayer TCG, Ever' title.": Not arrogant,
    not elitist, not condescending.

    "Sorry, but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.": Arrogant, elitist, and
    condescending.

    Buh?

    Bob Rossney
    rbr@well.com
  27. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    In article <64a19912.0406070406.698e0dd8@posting.google.com>,
    cure@caramail.com (cure) wrote:

    > Netrunner

    The most outstanding game.
  28. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <Y6mdnSVGkcXfEVrdRVn-tA@io.com>,
    Joshua Kronengold <mneme@fnord.io.com> wrote:
    >In article <UnJxc.6834$ak3.4623@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>,
    >David Zopf <david_zopf@snet.net> wrote:
    >>"Andrew S. Davidson" <ad@csi.com> wrote in message
    >>news:pm9ec0p3l506rjjbf6o9pnvsrepllftjnq@4ax.com...
    >>> Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    >>Sorry, but it is, too, Troll... (Nyah, nyah! thpffft! etc... Who peed in
    >>_your_ Cheerios this morning..?
    >
    >Because someone disagrees with you does not mean they're a troll

    Whether somebody who cross-posts to the Jyhad group just to stir its
    residents up might well be considered one, however.

    >>only becuse there are now so many cards... By contrast (and since you seem
    >>to _want_ to get in a 'my opinion is worth more than yours' contest), the
    >>cartoonish style of Shadowfist is cute, but approaches tedium quickly for
    >>me.
    >
    >Fist does not have a single art style.

    Well, yes and no. There's considerable variation, but a large
    percentage of the art is of the same basic style.

    Of course, that style is more "realistic, or as realistic as you can
    get with insane kung fu, cyborged demons, etc.", not "cartoonish".

    (http://www.shadowfist.com/html/7M_card_preview.htm for example.)

    >>Again, the popularity of Shadowfist is so deplorable, I cannot really
    >>comment other than from a read-through of the multiplayer rules.

    BTW, "deplorable" is not the word I think you mean here.
  29. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:18:12 GMT, David Zopf wrote:

    >For inexperienced players, yes. I'll admit the slow play early on tends to
    >convince a lot of people to not stick with the game. Most groups with even
    >a moderate level of experience can reduce game lengths to less than two
    >hours, often less than an hour. If your attention span cannot tolerate
    >that, well then, you shouldn't be playing a multiplayer game... As with all
    >games, circumstances of deadlock can arise.

    You misunderstand me - I don't mind games which take over an hour - I
    was quite happy playing a four hour Shadowfist game the other weekend.
    But it wouldn't have been so much fun if it had been Vampire and one
    or more players had to sit out for most of that time.

    Your estimates of Vampire game length seem understated. There's a
    current thread observing that many tournament games are timing out
    with the current time limit of two hours. And, in the finals, where
    we may suppose all the players to be experienced, even more time is
    required, it seems. But it's not the length of time that's the
    problem so much as the fact that players are eliminated during this
    time and so can't play any more.

    >I _do_ like LA Williams' "Hopping Vampire", though, even if it does
    >have two legs...

    That art was wrong. Chinese Hopping Vampires are so-called because
    they have rigor mortis, not because they have one leg. There's a more
    accurate picture on the remake of this card in the latest expansion.
    But it's Doomtown which did this best with its Gyonshee card -
    excellent art by Dan Frazier (the guy who did Magic's Jester's Cap,
    Jyhad's Change of Target and Shadowfist's Neutron Bomb).

    >Conversely, dog-piling a single player is much easier (even encouraged) in
    >Shadowfist's environment.

    You can dog-pile in Shadowfist but it's not especially rewarding as
    there are no points for ousting someone in that game and it's almost
    impossible to do. Players can bounce back quite quickly and I get
    lots of practise at that myself, as I'm often a tall poppy. If you're
    worried about this then it's easy to pack your deck with cards that
    let you thrive upon punishment - like a bloodstained HK movie hero or
    Hollywood terminator type. Hence card titles like "Is that All You
    Got?" and "That Which Does Not Kill Me..."

    Andrew
  30. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:06:09 +0000 (UTC), Matt Green wrote:

    >Why do Shadowfist players come across so repulsively arrogant, elitist and
    >condescending in on-line fora? I've met you IRL and you seem a perfectly
    >reasonable fellow, likewise the other 'fist players involved in the 'dice'
    >discussion the other month were really personable once they stopped
    >over-reacting and started posting constructively.

    The other guys you're probably referring too are New Yorkers - 'nuff
    said :) Me, I favour a provocative net style as it makes more
    interesting reading - like a pungent editorial or a debating show such
    as Crossfire or Question Time. Paradoxically, I don't like extended
    debate and discussion during the play of these games - just a
    background of witty banter. Hence the apparent difference perhaps.

    Game forums often have routine wars between the "fanboys" and the
    "whiners" and I'm sometimes assigned to the latter camp. When taken
    to task about this recently, I cited an amusing story by Robert
    Sheckley which I was pleased to find is online now. It's worth
    sharing and is only 5000 words or so:

    http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/sheckley3/sheckley31.html

    Andrew
  31. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    (cure) wrote:
    > DC HeroClix

    Eh? This isn't a card game.

    > Doomtown

    Played it for quite a while when it first came out and enjoyed it when
    it quite a bit. However, the expansions came out so quickly that I
    couldn't keep up and eventually shelved it for good.

    > Magic

    It's okay. *shrug* I'm proud to be able to say that I've never spent
    so much as a penny on the game.

    > Marvel HeroClix

    Also, not a card game. However, I do play it sporadically and enjoy
    it.

    > Settlers of Catan (Board Game)

    Awesome game, including any of the expansions & spinoffs. Except
    Starfarers. That one is ridiculously easy to master.

    > Vampire/Jyhad

    The best TCG ever. Bar none. The people that play it are far superior
    people to other TCG players. (Yes, I'm proud to be an elitist
    bastard.)

    Btw, I didn't see Bloodwars, the AD&D spinoff, listed. Not saying it
    was the best, but I enjoyed playing it.

    Regards,
    Noal
  32. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    > >Fist does not have a single art style.
    >
    > Well, yes and no. There's considerable variation, but a large
    > percentage of the art is of the same basic style.
    >
    > Of course, that style is more "realistic, or as realistic as you can
    > get with insane kung fu, cyborged demons, etc.", not "cartoonish".
    >
    > (http://www.shadowfist.com/html/7M_card_preview.htm for example.)
    >

    Thankyou for proving just how cartoonish the art style in Shadowfist still
    is.
  33. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Joshua Kronengold" <mneme@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
    news:Y6mdnSVGkcXfEVrdRVn-tA@io.com...
    > In article <UnJxc.6834$ak3.4623@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>,
    > David Zopf <david_zopf@snet.net> wrote:
    > >"Andrew S. Davidson" <ad@csi.com> wrote in message
    > >news:pm9ec0p3l506rjjbf6o9pnvsrepllftjnq@4ax.com...
    > >> Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    > >Sorry, but it is, too, Troll... (Nyah, nyah! thpffft! etc... Who peed
    in
    > >_your_ Cheerios this morning..?
    >
    > Because someone disagrees with you does not mean they're a troll

    Taking what was basically an opinion thread, and twisting it into a
    cross-posted pissing match over who's CCG is best certainly is trollish...

    > Aside from that...you're wrong.
    >
    Heh. So you're making it an Olympic Team pissing contest with Andrew, then?
    Fine. Opinions aren't 'wrong', Joshua, they're just opinions... But hey, I
    _did_ respond to this (stupid me), so lets spin the wheels for a few
    rounds...

    > >Again, the popularity of Shadowfist is so deplorable, I cannot really
    > >comment other than from a read-through of the multiplayer rules.
    >
    > You can play online...

    I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about how multiplayer tabletop
    Shadowfist stacks up by using CCG Workshop... Multiplayer interaction
    online is never the same as when people sit down to a real, wooden table to
    have it out, regardless of the game played. Were you implying here that the
    player interaction of Shadowfist is so simplistic, that an IRC window and an
    online card shuffler is adequate to depict this 'Best Multiplayer Game'..?
    ;-) VTES has Deckbot, and a CCG Workshop project in the works, but I'd
    never recommend either to a person as a means of grasping the game's
    depth...

    >
    > >and moving on strightaway to the next game at another table. Say, come
    to
    > >think of it, a poorly built or thematic deck in multiplayer Shadowfist
    would
    > >roughly result in the same effect as in VTES. The only difference; you
    have
    > >to play it out to the bitter end...
    >
    > Nope. There's always a chance, if you can seize your time -- the very
    factors
    > that allow multiple players to gang up to take down, or more often, slow
    down,
    > a leader also allow a weaker player to grab a win if the table exhausts
    > itself.
    >
    Ahh, you miss the point (or ignore it entirely)... Andrew's scenario was
    for a weak (fun, theme) deck seated at a table full of powerhouse tourney
    style decks. If Shadowfist's enviroment such that a comparatively weak deck
    can 'grab the win', it doesn't seem like 'Fist is so much a strategic
    multiplayer, as it is a random fortune multiplayer game. Not my cup of
    coffee... For VTES, the weak player can be ousted quickly, and go on to
    play another game. For Fist, the weak player is still stuck in until the
    end (did Andrew mention a four-hour multiplayer Fist game...?)

    But insofar as comparing VTES to Fist in this new scanario you redirected us
    to above, given a player with a deck of equivalent power to the table, who
    is just down on his luck, the chance for a comeback is roughly equivalent.
    I've seen a wealth of people bounce back on a VTES table, often because
    their prey got a bit too Machiavellian (sp?) with their table manipulations,
    but just as often because the player got their game up and running. This
    sceraio is a wash between the two games... No net gain for either...

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  34. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    (Joshua Kronengold) wrote:
    > BTW, if one is interested in trying Fist without having to invest in
    > cardstock and all that garbage, there's now a way to try it, for free, online
    > (at least if, unlike me, you have a Windows box).

    Would you care to explain how, for the benefit of those that came in
    late to this bru-ha-ha?

    I'm always interested in trying out new games. But before I do, a
    couple of quick questions.

    Is there a tendency for 'Fist players to show up with a milk crate of
    extra card stock to get new players started as there is in Jyhad?

    How essential are rare cards to a winning deck in 'Fist?


    Regards,
    Noal
  35. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Robert Rossney" <rbr@well.com> wrote in message
    news:KqPxc.73602$Ly.12698@attbi_s01...
    > Sez "Matt Green"
    >
    > : > >> Vampire/Jyhad
    > : > >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best
    > Multiplayer
    > : > >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic
    when...
    > : >
    > : > Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.
    > :
    > : Why do Shadowfist players come across so repulsively arrogant, elitist
    and
    > : condescending in on-line fora?
    >
    > "[VtES] deserves the 'Best Multiplayer TCG, Ever' title.": Not arrogant,
    > not elitist, not condescending.
    >
    > "Sorry, but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.": Arrogant, elitist,
    and
    > condescending.
    >
    > Buh?
    >
    Condescending arrogant and elitist perhaps because Andrew so often assumes
    that his opinion is of greater value than others... Within the context of
    the topic (mere solicited opinion) of the thread, Andrew assuming his opnion
    is best certainly _is_ elitist. His online attitude is, in Matt Green's
    experience, indicative of the posting habits of other Shadowfist players who
    frequent the online community. I've had a lesser number of similar
    experiences, so I wouldn't paint the lot with a single brush. I do know
    that Matt Green is one of those who frequents more online communities than
    I, though, so I value his opinion in this.

    I post to a thread soliciting player opinions, give Shadowfist its full
    props as a nice game, but express my personal preference for another game in
    multiplayer , and Andrew turns it into this crossposted pissing match we see
    before us. Andrew's online attitude is a serious detriment to the promotion
    of Shadowfist, which has few enough advocates as it is... Whatever he's
    like IRL, he consistently posts with a grating, 'Holier than Thou' attitude,
    especially when it pertains to VTES.

    If there was ever a single community which _might_ be supportive of
    anothers' efforts at raising interest in a good, multiplayer TCG from the
    early days of game play, VTES is it. VTES and 'Fist have a similar
    historical arc, in that both sustained through a long dark on the backs of a
    few avid fans. Any pre-disposition that the VTES community online (as a
    whole) might have had towards trying 'Fist has been likely knocked out of
    them by the consistently unsavory posts of a select few, led by Mr.
    Davidson. Way to go Andrew, alienating your favorite game to a group
    pre-disposed towards actually liking multiplayer TCGs...

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  36. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "David Zopf" wrote:
    > I post to a thread soliciting player opinions, give Shadowfist its full
    > props as a nice game, but express my personal preference for another game in
    > multiplayer , and Andrew turns it into this crossposted pissing match we see
    > before us. Andrew's online attitude is a serious detriment to the promotion
    > of Shadowfist, which has few enough advocates as it is... Whatever he's
    > like IRL, he consistently posts with a grating, 'Holier than Thou' attitude,
    > especially when it pertains to VTES.

    I've met him IRL multiple times. He's a quiet shrew. Quite the
    opposite of the confrontational "gentleman" we know and love online.

    Regards,
    Noal
  37. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Andrew S. Davidson" <ad@csi.com> wrote in message
    news:ab3gc0pm8k3u03fbuam6gm6gjhl1cenmht@4ax.com...
    > On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:18:12 GMT, David Zopf wrote:
    >
    > >For inexperienced players, yes. I'll admit the slow play early on tends
    to
    > >convince a lot of people to not stick with the game. Most groups with
    even
    > >a moderate level of experience can reduce game lengths to less than two
    > >hours, often less than an hour. If your attention span cannot tolerate
    > >that, well then, you shouldn't be playing a multiplayer game... As with
    all
    > >games, circumstances of deadlock can arise.
    >
    > You misunderstand me - I don't mind games which take over an hour - I
    > was quite happy playing a four hour Shadowfist game the other weekend.
    > But it wouldn't have been so much fun if it had been Vampire and one
    > or more players had to sit out for most of that time.
    >
    Again, I'll put it back to you; for what value of 'Fun' is it fun to sit
    around for X hours in a game you have little to no chance of winning, or
    even positively participating? If your premise is one weak deck at a table
    of powerhouses, then VTES wins out as the better multiplayer, based on the
    fact that it releases the weak player from the game earlier. My
    recreational time is limited, and if I was in that four hour 'Fist game and
    being obviously outclassed (and not learning more about the game by sticking
    around), I'd be looking to get out and go play something (even another 'Fist
    game) where I wasn't so much as a speed bump to another's victory... If
    'Fist's environment is such that an obviously outclassed deck and/or player
    has a fair chance to win by sticking it out to the end of a long game, then
    it shouldn't really be classified as a strategic multiplayer CCG, but is
    rather a random, fun multiplayer CCG.

    > Your estimates of Vampire game length seem understated.

    Maybe. I play with experienced players quite a lot.

    > There's a
    > current thread observing that many tournament games are timing out
    > with the current time limit of two hours.

    Correction, the current time limit is a minimum of two hours. Longer time
    limits may be established, if desired. This is the reason I chose not to
    participate in that thread, the solution to tables timing out is already in
    the rules.

    > And, in the finals, where
    > we may suppose all the players to be experienced, even more time is
    > required, it seems.

    A separate problem from the 'early oust' issue. Finals may be lengthened,
    such that the full strategic capabilities of the players may be realized.

    > But it's not the length of time that's the
    > problem so much as the fact that players are eliminated during this
    > time and so can't play any more.
    >
    In the VTES circles I've played in, the players ousted early don't mill
    about and drool waiting for the current game to finish(OK, maybe Derek, but
    that was only when he was eyeballing my glass of MacAllan's)... They play
    pick up games, they try out other CCGs, they start a new VTES table with the
    first four ousted (a 'self-righting' mechanism for differences is deck
    strength, BTW, if people choose to play the same decks again.) It may be
    that your local group has made you accustomed to very small groups where
    those players _must_ wait for that multiplayer game to end before another
    may begin. Sorry for you if thats the case. I had that problem for a
    while, living in Charlotte. In playgroups of six or more, with the first
    game being a four player, it is typically a twenty minute wait for the next
    four-player VTES game to get started.

    > >Conversely, dog-piling a single player is much easier (even encouraged)
    in
    > >Shadowfist's environment.
    >
    > You can dog-pile in Shadowfist but it's not especially rewarding as
    > there are no points for ousting someone in that game and it's almost
    > impossible to do. Players can bounce back quite quickly and I get
    > lots of practise at that myself, as I'm often a tall poppy. If you're
    > worried about this then it's easy to pack your deck with cards that
    > let you thrive upon punishment - like a bloodstained HK movie hero or
    > Hollywood terminator type. Hence card titles like "Is that All You
    > Got?" and "That Which Does Not Kill Me..."
    >

    I'll have to take your word for it, but I still value the 'limited direct
    interaction' principle, maybe a bit overmuch. I don't see it as being
    preserved in the Shadowfist multiplayer rules.

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  38. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    On 10 Jun 2004 07:12:34 -0700, vermillian wrote:

    >> 7th Sea
    >How many pirate collectable strategy games are there?

    Ther's about to be another one - Pirates of the Spanish Main. Their
    main appeal seems to be the opportunity to do the accent. :)

    >> Duel Masters
    >
    >One of the most balaned and exciting ccgs I've ever played. Seriously.
    >Check it out.

    Really? I had supposed that it was YuGiOh clone. Tell me more.

    Andrew
  39. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:15:18 -0400, Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:

    >> (http://www.shadowfist.com/html/7M_card_preview.htm for example.)
    >>
    >
    >Thankyou for proving just how cartoonish the art style in Shadowfist still
    >is.

    I'm not understanding you. The first piece, for example, is a
    painting by Rob Alexander - a CCG artist who has done work for others
    CCGs, starting with Magic. I thought that the essence of a cartoon
    was that it is done with a pen/pencil and block colour, not with a
    brush. Or that it was a caricature rather than realistic. Shadowfist
    has one or two pieces like that (Shaking the Mountain, for example)
    but they haven't been popular. And I don't see any at that link.

    Cartoonish art can be ok if it's done well. I quite liked INWO's art
    which seemed eye-catching and witty. On the Edge's was too crude for
    most people though.

    Andrew
  40. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    In article <20040610111406.C95638@sidehack.sat.gweep.net>,
    Gregory Stuart Pettigrew <etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote:
    >> >Fist does not have a single art style.
    >>
    >> Well, yes and no. There's considerable variation, but a large
    >> percentage of the art is of the same basic style.
    >>
    >> Of course, that style is more "realistic, or as realistic as you can
    >> get with insane kung fu, cyborged demons, etc.", not "cartoonish".
    >>
    >> (http://www.shadowfist.com/html/7M_card_preview.htm for example.)
    >
    >Thankyou for proving just how cartoonish the art style in Shadowfist still
    >is.

    You seem to have a different definition of "cartoonish" than I. To me,
    it suggests the art of Phil Foglio, or the art in INWO. While Phil has
    done some Shadowfist art, so has Drew Tucker. Neither of their styles
    are typical of Shadowfist art.

    Shadowfist is an action-movie game. The art tries to capture that feel.
  41. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <gTYxc.25087$YW7.443@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>,
    David Zopf <david_zopf@snet.net> wrote:
    >"Joshua Kronengold" <mneme@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
    >news:Y6mdnSVGkcXfEVrdRVn-tA@io.com...

    >> >and moving on strightaway to the next game at another table. Say,
    >> >come to think of it, a poorly built or thematic deck in
    >> >multiplayer Shadowfist would roughly result in the same effect as
    >> >in VTES. The only difference; you have to play it out to the
    >> >bitter end...
    >>
    >> Nope. There's always a chance, if you can seize your time -- the
    >> very factors that allow multiple players to gang up to take down,
    >> or more often, slow down, a leader also allow a weaker player to
    >> grab a win if the table exhausts itself.
    >>
    >Ahh, you miss the point (or ignore it entirely)... Andrew's scenario was
    >for a weak (fun, theme) deck seated at a table full of powerhouse tourney
    >style decks. If Shadowfist's enviroment such that a comparatively weak deck
    >can 'grab the win', it doesn't seem like 'Fist is so much a strategic
    >multiplayer, as it is a random fortune multiplayer game.

    Multiplayer Shadowfist is much more skill-dominant than it is
    deck-construction-dominant. A good player with a bad deck always has a
    chance. He'd have a better chance with a good deck, but he cannot be
    counted out.

    Yes, sometimes the winner of a game is determined by who got lucky,
    but the same players do well consistently. Two of the players from the
    2002 World Championships final were in the 2003 final, and neither of
    the other finalists from 2002 were there, or it probably would have
    been three.

    > Not my cup of
    >coffee... For VTES, the weak player can be ousted quickly, and go on to
    >play another game. For Fist, the weak player is still stuck in until the
    >end (did Andrew mention a four-hour multiplayer Fist game...?)

    Games between well-matched good players can take a long time,
    especially if the players are conservative in style. It's a
    consequence of the way the game works, and the fact that players
    aren't eliminated. (From what I understand of Vampire, the total
    amount of blood at the table mostly decreases over time, which creates
    a game clock of sorts.) But they usually don't.
  42. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <iD%xc.551$Pt.495@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>,
    David Zopf <david_zopf@snet.net> wrote:
    >"Andrew S. Davidson" <ad@csi.com> wrote in message
    >news:ab3gc0pm8k3u03fbuam6gm6gjhl1cenmht@4ax.com...
    >> >Conversely, dog-piling a single player is much easier (even encouraged)
    >> >in Shadowfist's environment.
    >>
    >> You can dog-pile in Shadowfist but it's not especially rewarding as
    >> there are no points for ousting someone in that game and it's almost
    >> impossible to do. Players can bounce back quite quickly and I get
    >> lots of practise at that myself, as I'm often a tall poppy.

    Furthermore, jumping on the weak player is usually bad play for
    everybody except the guy in the lead.

    >> If you're
    >> worried about this then it's easy to pack your deck with cards that
    >> let you thrive upon punishment - like a bloodstained HK movie hero or
    >> Hollywood terminator type. Hence card titles like "Is that All You
    >> Got?" and "That Which Does Not Kill Me..."
    >
    >I'll have to take your word for it, but I still value the 'limited direct
    >interaction' principle, maybe a bit overmuch. I don't see it as being
    >preserved in the Shadowfist multiplayer rules.

    It's not. Shadowfist's multiplayer rules use the "you against the
    world" principle. If you don't like games like that, you won't like
    Shadowfist.

    Still, it's entirely possible to take on the world, and kick all their
    butts.
  43. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Julian Lighton" <jl8e@fragment.com> wrote in message
    news:10chd9he4fpohdc@corp.supernews.com...
    > In article <gTYxc.25087$YW7.443@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>,
    > David Zopf <david_zopf@snet.net> wrote:
    > >"Joshua Kronengold" <mneme@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
    > >news:Y6mdnSVGkcXfEVrdRVn-tA@io.com...
    >
    > >> >and moving on strightaway to the next game at another table. Say,
    > >> >come to think of it, a poorly built or thematic deck in
    > >> >multiplayer Shadowfist would roughly result in the same effect as
    > >> >in VTES. The only difference; you have to play it out to the
    > >> >bitter end...
    > >>
    > >> Nope. There's always a chance, if you can seize your time -- the
    > >> very factors that allow multiple players to gang up to take down,
    > >> or more often, slow down, a leader also allow a weaker player to
    > >> grab a win if the table exhausts itself.
    > >>
    > >Ahh, you miss the point (or ignore it entirely)... Andrew's scenario was
    > >for a weak (fun, theme) deck seated at a table full of powerhouse tourney
    > >style decks. If Shadowfist's enviroment such that a comparatively weak
    deck
    > >can 'grab the win', it doesn't seem like 'Fist is so much a strategic
    > >multiplayer, as it is a random fortune multiplayer game.
    >
    > Multiplayer Shadowfist is much more skill-dominant than it is
    > deck-construction-dominant.

    In VTES, skill in deckbuilding is needed in roughly equivalent portions to
    skill in playing the game.

    > A good player with a bad deck always has a
    > chance. He'd have a better chance with a good deck, but he cannot be
    > counted out.
    >
    I see this happening through two elements, the 'ignore the down-trodden'
    dynamic, and the 'trip the leader' dynamic that Shadowfist lends itself to.

    > Yes, sometimes the winner of a game is determined by who got lucky,
    > but the same players do well consistently. Two of the players from the
    > 2002 World Championships final were in the 2003 final, and neither of
    > the other finalists from 2002 were there, or it probably would have
    > been three.
    >
    > > Not my cup of
    > >coffee... For VTES, the weak player can be ousted quickly, and go on to
    > >play another game. For Fist, the weak player is still stuck in until the
    > >end (did Andrew mention a four-hour multiplayer Fist game...?)
    >
    > Games between well-matched good players

    Why do the 'Fisters (heh) keep re-inserting this (games of balanced players
    and decks) in the part where we're trying (at Andrew's behest) to assess the
    effect of each game on the single lamb with a mediocre deck (or skill) at a
    table of 'lions'? At some point in the next few posts, I'm going to
    consider this point conceded in the favor of VTES by lack of response...

    > can take a long time,
    > especially if the players are conservative in style. It's a
    > consequence of the way the game works, and the fact that players
    > aren't eliminated. (From what I understand of Vampire, the total
    > amount of blood at the table mostly decreases over time, which creates
    > a game clock of sorts.) But they usually don't.

    Your points, while not a response to Andrew's scenario, are well taken, but
    can be assumed to apply equally to VTES. The pool (life) total which you
    expend to amass offensive and defensive resources in VTES is also what keeps
    you in the game. If we are assuming well-matched, good players, we can also
    assume they have the sense enough to build decks which replenish this
    valuable resource, and so it has only an modest, indirect effect on VTES
    game length. The pool total of players erodes over time as they exert
    themselves against one another, but the total blood pool available is much
    the same as the bank in Monopoly; it is theoretically infinite.

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  44. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    In article <bb705c59.0406101226.63a00eac@posting.google.com>,
    Noal McDonald <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
    >(Joshua Kronengold) wrote:
    >> BTW, if one is interested in trying Fist without having to invest in
    >> cardstock and all that garbage, there's now a way to try it, for free, online
    >> (at least if, unlike me, you have a Windows box).
    >
    >Would you care to explain how, for the benefit of those that came in
    >late to this bru-ha-ha?

    There's a site where you can play on-line for free. ccgworkshop or
    something like that. (I don't play there, since I don't do Windows.)

    You can get the rulebook from shadowfist.com.

    >I'm always interested in trying out new games. But before I do, a
    >couple of quick questions.
    >
    >Is there a tendency for 'Fist players to show up with a milk crate of
    >extra card stock to get new players started as there is in Jyhad?

    For somebody who drops by, we're more likely to lend a deck to get
    them started playing, but people who are building up their collections
    are likely to have surplus cards donated.

    >How essential are rare cards to a winning deck in 'Fist?

    Most of the major utility cards are common. Rares tend to be
    specialized cards or big unique hitters. You need hitters, but it's
    rare to need a specific hitter.

    There are also very playable premade starter decks, which contain a
    selection of useful cards.
  45. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    In article <f987c6cd.0406100612.1a5c47ff@posting.google.com>,
    vermillian69@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote:

    > > Netrunner
    >
    > Good two player game, but corp had the cards to beat out the runners.

    Not true at all. Straight out of a starter box, the game is even.
    However, one of Netrunner's problems was that while a game between two
    beginners was a coin flip, and a game between two experienced players was
    an equal fight, a game between two players with a fair bit of experience
    strongly favored the Corporation -- therefore, Netrunner gained an
    undeserved reputation for one-sidedness.

    > Had they printed more expansions this might have been different.

    Showing that he knows nothing of which he speaks. The first expansion,
    Proteus, seemed to be meant to address the (non-existent) Corporation's
    advantage, but it went much too far, and nearly ruined the game in the
    Runner's favor.

    The second, "Classic," expansion was really supposed to come out first,
    and it is a much more reasonable set of cards. Unfortunately, Netrunner
    was already dead upon its arrival.
  46. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    cure@caramail.com (cure) wrote in message news:<64a19912.0406070406.698e0dd8@posting.google.com>...
    > Hello,
    > I did a simple thing, I copy the full list of TCG from potomac and I
    > would like that you write down your opinion about the one you tested
    > ???

    > Illuminati

    Talking about INWO here? I still have the original deluxe non-tcg
    box, and I like it. INWO the tcg version was ok, but there was so
    much text on the cards and the cards are always at such odd angles in
    play that I found it a real pain to play. Never got into it further.


    > L5R/LBS

    Tried it, didn't like, don't like what they did with the Japanese
    mythology. The fact that they refer to Musashi's book by its title is
    a compete misnomer.


    > Magic

    Sold my collection shortly after legends. Not interested in getting
    back into it, verges on being broken and unfun too often.

    > Shadowfist

    Totally kicks ass! My favorite card game at this point. If you're
    into kung fu and baction movies at all, I can't recomend checking this
    out enough! I seriouslly love the fact that 'comeback' is built into
    the game, and you don't have to 'oust' a player to win.

    > Star Trek

    Awkward. Didn't feel like star trek.

    > Star Wars CCG (Decipher)
    > Star Wars TCG (WOTC)

    I don't think dice should be involved in a tcg at all. Not as a
    random generator anyways.


    > Vampire/Jyhad

    The ultimate 'chess' game of ccgs imo. Will always be a favorite,
    although lately the lack of players and fatigue is setting in.

    G
  47. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Andrew S. Davidson <ad@csi.com> wrote in message news:<pm9ec0p3l506rjjbf6o9pnvsrepllftjnq@4ax.com>...
    > On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:33:48 GMT, David Zopf wrote:
    >
    > >> Vampire/Jyhad
    > >My personal favorite. Suffice it to say, it deserves the 'Best Multiplayer
    > >TCG, Ever' title. When Mr. Garfield saw all the flaws of Magic when...
    >
    > Sorry but this is not the best multiplayer TCG.

    I think VTES and Shadowfist are both superior multiplayer ccgs for
    different reasons, and the dwindling life in vtes has nothing to do
    with it.

    VTES was built from the ground up to be specefically multiplayer and
    it shows. It is the ultimate chess/political card game. In that
    regard it is the best at focusing and providing for mp interaction.

    Shadowfist is great for the built in comeback, joint attack/defence,
    and the 'never quite out' player features. Does this make it the best
    mp game? Maybe, depending on how much you value them.

    Overall, I have to say I prefer shadowfist right now because it is fun
    and fast, not because it has better mp functionality, which I'm not
    sure it does.

    G
  48. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    The Doctor <DOK@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<40C77CF9.8090208@freemail.nl>...
    > Raille wrote:
    > >

    Keep in mind I love both games, but;

    >
    > Pro's about Jyhad/VTES:
    > -it's not over in 5-10 minutes

    Exceedingly rare in fist, although possible with trick dueling decks.

    > -you have to actually think

    umm, yeah...your point?

    > -you have to talk to other players (coherent talk, not just 'Lightning
    > Bolt on your Hypnotic Spectre')

    Tabletalk is pretty important in Fist.

    > -(in Jyhad at least) the cards are pretty and dark :)

    In fist, the cards are dramatic and flashy!

    > -it's about vampires, how cool can you get?

    Its about kung fu, demons, tanks, evil sorcerors...and oh yeah,
    vampires! :)

    > -it was built to be multiplayer, and is fun for all players.

    Fist was built to be either MP or duel, and is definitely fun for all
    players. I wouldn't say the same for VTES at all.

    G
  49. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc (More info?)

    vermillian wrote:

    > cure@caramail.com (cure) wrote in message
    > news:<64a19912.0406070406.698e0dd8@posting.google.com>...
    >> Hello,
    >> I did a simple thing, I copy the full list of TCG from potomac and I
    >> would like that you write down your opinion about the one you tested
    >> ???
    >> No more than 2 lines per game!!!
    >
    > How about three?
    >
    >
    >> Duel Masters
    >
    > One of the most balaned and exciting ccgs I've ever played. Seriously.
    > Check it out.
    >
    I was amazed by this myself when I bought the GBA video game that just
    came out. Really nice. Now if I can just bring myself to play a game
    whose first expansion is called "Evo-Crushinators of Doom" (is Trogdor
    in it?)
    --
    Christopher Mattern

    "Which one you figure tracked us?"
    "The ugly one, sir."
    "...Could you be more specific?"
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