True Strike

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Does the +20 count toward a critical confirmation as well?

 

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Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> Does the +20 count toward a critical confirmation as well?

>From the 3.5 SRD text for critical hit:

"To find out if it's a critical hit, you
immediately make a critical roll-another
attack roll with all the same modifiers as
the attack roll you just made."

True strike says:
"Your next single attack roll (if it is made
before the end of the next round) gains a +20
insight bonus."

I see why you are torn...

I got no friggin clue...

 

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In a dizzying speach from his throne, Master Grunthros the Flatulent
<Erich__G@hotmail.com> imparted this wisdom:
>Does the +20 count toward a critical confirmation as well?

Looks like your answer is no. From the SRD (my caps):

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during
your next attack. YOUR NEXT SINGLE ATTACK ROLL (if it is made before
the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you
are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to
strike a concealed target.


--

Argentium Helm

 

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On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:55:11 GMT, Argentium Helm
<argentiumhelm@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>In a dizzying speach from his throne, Master Grunthros the Flatulent
><Erich__G@hotmail.com> imparted this wisdom:
>>Does the +20 count toward a critical confirmation as well?
>
>Looks like your answer is no. From the SRD (my caps):
>
>You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during
>your next attack. YOUR NEXT SINGLE ATTACK ROLL (if it is made before
>the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you
>are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to
>strike a concealed target.

Looks like the answer is yes (my caps)

"To find out if it's a critical hit, you
immediately make a critical roll-another
attack roll with ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS as
the attack roll you just made."

 

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In a dizzying speach from his throne, decalod85 <decalod85@comcast.net>
imparted this wisdom:
>>From the 3.5 SRD text for critical hit:
>
>"To find out if it's a critical hit, you
>immediately make a critical roll-another
>attack roll with all the same modifiers as
>the attack roll you just made."

Here I've got my interpretation focused on: "ANOTHER attack roll".

>True strike says:
>"Your next single attack roll (if it is made
>before the end of the next round) gains a +20
>insight bonus."

And here, of course, on: "next SINGLE attack roll".

OTOH, given that that seems to be contravened by "all the same
modifiers" I think I would rule to go with whatever the players and DM
consider more fun. Since the spell doesn't alter the weapon's threat
range or anything, enjoying the fruits of an easy crit wouldn't break
the game IMO.


--

Argentium Helm

 

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In a dizzying speach from his throne, Chad Lubrecht
<chad.lubrecht@verizon.net> imparted this wisdom:
>Looks like the answer is yes (my caps)
>
>"To find out if it's a critical hit, you
>immediately make a critical roll-another
>attack roll with ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS as
>the attack roll you just made."

No argument. See my reply to decalod85, above.


--

Argentium Helm

 

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decalod85 wrote:

> Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
>
>>Does the +20 count toward a critical confirmation as well?
>
>
>>From the 3.5 SRD text for critical hit:
>
> "To find out if it's a critical hit, you
> immediately make a critical roll-another
> attack roll with all the same modifiers as
> the attack roll you just made."
>
> True strike says:
> "Your next single attack roll (if it is made
> before the end of the next round) gains a +20
> insight bonus."
>
> I see why you are torn...
>
> I got no friggin clue...
>

IMHO, a crit confirmation is not a seperate attack roll. It's a crit
confirmation roll; an extension of the current attack roll. I'd rule
"yes" to my players.

CH

 

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On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Argentium Helm wrote:

> In a dizzying speach from his throne, Master Grunthros the Flatulent
> <Erich__G@hotmail.com> imparted this wisdom:
>> Does the +20 count toward a critical confirmation as well?
>
> Looks like your answer is no. From the SRD (my caps):
>
> You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during
> your next attack. YOUR NEXT SINGLE ATTACK ROLL (if it is made before
> the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you
> are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to
> strike a concealed target.

IIRC, the roll to confirm a critical hit is *not* an attack roll: for
example, it doesn't auto-succeed on a 20 or auto-fail on a 1. AFAIK, the
+20 insight bonus applies.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm

 

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"Gary Johnson" <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> wrote in message
newsine.LNX.4.61.0508121406260.7355@fox.uq.net.au...
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Argentium Helm wrote:
> IIRC, the roll to confirm a critical hit is *not* an attack roll: for
> example, it doesn't auto-succeed on a 20 or auto-fail on a 1.

Horseshit.

-Michael

 

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Mere moments before death, Michael Scott Brown hastily scrawled:
>"Gary Johnson" <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> wrote in message
>newsine.LNX.4.61.0508121406260.7355@fox.uq.net.au...
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Argentium Helm wrote:
>> IIRC, the roll to confirm a critical hit is *not* an attack roll: for
>> example, it doesn't auto-succeed on a 20 or auto-fail on a 1.
>
> Horseshit.

Loopy, you've gone completely batshit loopy, Mikey.



Ed Chauvin IV

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Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
> Mere moments before death, Michael Scott Brown hastily scrawled:
> >"Gary Johnson" <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> wrote in message
> >newsine.LNX.4.61.0508121406260.7355@fox.uq.net.au...
> >> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Argentium Helm wrote:
> >> IIRC, the roll to confirm a critical hit is *not* an attack roll: for
> >> example, it doesn't auto-succeed on a 20 or auto-fail on a 1.
> >
> > Horseshit.
>
> Loopy, you've gone completely batshit loopy, Mikey.

>From the 3.5 SRD.

"If the critical roll also results in a hit against the
target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The
critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It
doesn't need to come up 20 again.)"

If you roll a 20 on any attack roll, it is an automatic
hit, so that applies to a critical roll. A 1 means a
miss, so it means that you missed your critical roll,
but you still hit.

It says earlier in the SRD that a critical is an attack
roll.

 

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Clawhound wrote:
> decalod85 wrote:
> "To find out if it's a critical hit, you
> > immediately make a critical roll-another
> > attack roll with all the same modifiers as
> > the attack roll you just made."
> >
> > True strike says:
> > "Your next single attack roll (if it is made
> > before the end of the next round) gains a +20
> > insight bonus."
> >
> > I see why you are torn...
> >
> > I got no friggin clue...
> >
>
> IMHO, a crit confirmation is not a seperate attack roll. It's a crit
> confirmation roll; an extension of the current attack roll. I'd rule
> "yes" to my players.

Your humble opinion is wrong. A crit confirmation is an
attack roll, and it is seperate. It is an extension of
the attack ACTION, but not the attack roll. The SRD is
very clear on this: make and attack roll, if you roll 20
make ANOTHER attack roll, if it hits, you crit!

 

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Clawhound wrote:
>
> IMHO, a crit confirmation is not a seperate attack roll. It's a crit
> confirmation roll; an extension of the current attack roll. I'd rule
> "yes" to my players.

Well, your opinion goes against the text of the SRD.

The SRD says that after you roll a 20 on your attack
roll, you make ANOTHER attack roll. Even if the two
attack rolls are part of the same attack action, they
are separate rolls.

 

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decalod85 <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
>Clawhound wrote:
>>
>> IMHO, a crit confirmation is not a seperate attack roll. It's a crit
>> confirmation roll; an extension of the current attack roll. I'd rule
>> "yes" to my players.
>
>Well, your opinion goes against the text of the SRD.
>
>The SRD says that after you roll a 20 on your attack
>roll, you make ANOTHER attack roll. Even if the two
>attack rolls are part of the same attack action, they
>are separate rolls.

Not that it'll settle anything, but the 3.0 FAQ (from 2003/06/27)
says:

When you roll to confirm a critical, you use whatever bonuses
applied to the attack roll that made the threat, no matter where
those bonuses came from.

True strike affects only one attack. (Rolling to confirm a
critical is not a separate attack for this purpose.) If you
make multiple attacks in a round, your bonus from true strike
applies only to the first attack you make, no matter how you
managed to get multiple attacks.

(The last sentence specifically points at Cleave, if it wasn't clear.)

So, at least two years ago, under 3.0 rules, True Strike's bonus
applied to the confirmation roll.


Donald

 

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Donald Tsang <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:

>So, at least two years ago, under 3.0 rules, True Strike's bonus
>applied to the confirmation roll.

Man. If True Strike was intended all along to apply to crits, I
have to wonder if it was physically possible for the rules to
have been any less clear on that point? Seriously, how the hell
hard would it be to put "also applies to possible crit rolls"
in the TS description? Nitwits.

Pete

 

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Miracle wrote:
> decalod85 wrote:
> > "To find out if it's a critical hit, you
> > immediately make a critical roll-*another*
> > attack roll with *all the same modifiers* as
> > the attack roll you just made."
> >
> > True strike says:
> > "Your next *single* attack roll (if it is made
> > before the end of the next round) gains a +20
> > insight bonus."
> >
> > I see why you are torn...
>
> It's called a contradiction
> Haven't seen an answer yet that would clear things up, so I gues it's up to
> DM, until we hear an official word from WoTC.

There is no contradiction. THE SPELL IS OVER, its duration has expired.

You roll with the same modifiers, so you get a +20 insight bonus, NOT
because the spell is still going, but because that is one of the
modifiers and ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS doesn't say anything about
"assuming the spell that gave them is still going for the next attack
roll".

There would be a contradiction ONLY if the spell also said "this is
the only way in the entire game to get a +20 insight bonus, nothing
else gives this bonus even if it specifically says that you do". I
don't see any such wording on the spell!

DougL

 

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DougL wrote:
> There is no contradiction. THE SPELL IS OVER, its duration has expired.
>
> You roll with the same modifiers, so you get a +20 insight bonus, NOT
> because the spell is still going, but because that is one of the
> modifiers and ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS doesn't say anything about
> "assuming the spell that gave them is still going for the next attack
> roll".
>
> There would be a contradiction ONLY if the spell also said "this is
> the only way in the entire game to get a +20 insight bonus, nothing
> else gives this bonus even if it specifically says that you do". I
> don't see any such wording on the spell!


True strike says:
"Your next single attack roll (if it is made
before the end of the next round) gains a +20
insight bonus."

The spell says clearly that it applies to the next attack
roll. The critical roll is a separate attack roll from
the main one. Sure it is part of the attack action, but
True Strike is very specific about applying the bonus
only to the "next single attack roll".

 

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Master Grunthros the Flatulent wrote:
> Does the +20 count toward a critical confirmation as well?
>
>

Yes. From the (3.0) FAQ:

"If you use the true strike spell and you get a threat, does
the +20 bonus from the apply to the critical confirmation
roll? Would the +20 bonus apply to the extra attacks you
get from the Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind attack
feats?"

"When you roll to confirm a critical, you use whatever
bonuses applied to the attack roll that made the threat, no
matter where those bonuses came from.
True strike affects only one attack. (Rolling to confirm a
critical is not a separate attack for this purpose.) If you make
multiple attacks in a round, your bonus from true strike applies
only to the first attack you make, no matter how you managed
to get multiple attacks."

 

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Donald Tsang wrote:
> decalod85 <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Clawhound wrote:
>>
>>>IMHO, a crit confirmation is not a seperate attack roll. It's a crit
>>>confirmation roll; an extension of the current attack roll. I'd rule
>>>"yes" to my players.
>>
>>Well, your opinion goes against the text of the SRD.
>>
>>The SRD says that after you roll a 20 on your attack
>>roll, you make ANOTHER attack roll. Even if the two
>>attack rolls are part of the same attack action, they
>>are separate rolls.
>
>
> Not that it'll settle anything, but the 3.0 FAQ (from 2003/06/27)
> says:
>
> When you roll to confirm a critical, you use whatever bonuses
> applied to the attack roll that made the threat, no matter where
> those bonuses came from.
>
> True strike affects only one attack. (Rolling to confirm a
> critical is not a separate attack for this purpose.) If you
> make multiple attacks in a round, your bonus from true strike
> applies only to the first attack you make, no matter how you
> managed to get multiple attacks.
>
> (The last sentence specifically points at Cleave, if it wasn't clear.)
>
> So, at least two years ago, under 3.0 rules, True Strike's bonus
> applied to the confirmation roll.
>
>
> Donald

And, as I've said, where it's not specifically contradicted by a 3.5 rule
change, the 3.0 FAQ is still valid.

 

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"DougL" <lampert.doug@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123945677.002418.116730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> There is no contradiction. THE SPELL IS OVER, its duration has expired.
>
> You roll with the same modifiers, so you get a +20 insight bonus, NOT
> because the spell is still going, but because that is one of the
> modifiers and ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS doesn't say anything about
> "assuming the spell that gave them is still going for the next attack
roll".

Bingo.
It's so nice to see smart posts here sometimes.

-Michael

 

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guppy wrote:
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > "Miracle" <.@.> wrote in message news:ddm063$gic$1@bagan.srce.hr...
> >
> >>And crit rule is very specific with "ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS"!
> >>Don't you see we could go on like this forever? It's a contradiction in
> >>rules. Period.
> >
> >
> > No, it isn't. True strike gives the first attack a +20 bonus. It
> > *ends*. Critical confirmation roll uses same modifiers as initial attack
> > (which happen to be modified by +20 from TS). True strike isn't "giving the
> > confirmation roll a bonus, too"; the confirmation roll simply mirrors the
> > original state of the attack.
> >
> And the original state of the attack INCLUDES a +20 bonus from the True
> Strike spell.

No. The confirmation roll INCLUDES a +20 Insight bonus. Therefor the
confirmation roll includes a +20 Insight bonus. Because the
confirmation
roll uses ALL THE SAME BONUSES and doesn't CARE if they come from the
same source. You get a +20 insight bonus WITHOUT THE SPELL!

You get +20 because you got +20 on the original roll and get all the
same modifiers. What part of all the same modifiers don't you
understand?

You DON'T need to get the same modifier from the same source, but you
get the same modifier. THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION!

> You're as obstinate as you are moronic.

Kettle, Pot.

DougL

 

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"Miracle" <.@.> wrote in message news:ddm063$gic$1@bagan.srce.hr...
> And crit rule is very specific with "ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS"!
> Don't you see we could go on like this forever? It's a contradiction in
> rules. Period.

No, it isn't. True strike gives the first attack a +20 bonus. It
*ends*. Critical confirmation roll uses same modifiers as initial attack
(which happen to be modified by +20 from TS). True strike isn't "giving the
confirmation roll a bonus, too"; the confirmation roll simply mirrors the
original state of the attack.

-Michael

 

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Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> "Miracle" <.@.> wrote in message news:ddm063$gic$1@bagan.srce.hr...
>
>>And crit rule is very specific with "ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS"!
>>Don't you see we could go on like this forever? It's a contradiction in
>>rules. Period.
>
>
> No, it isn't. True strike gives the first attack a +20 bonus. It
> *ends*. Critical confirmation roll uses same modifiers as initial attack
> (which happen to be modified by +20 from TS). True strike isn't "giving the
> confirmation roll a bonus, too"; the confirmation roll simply mirrors the
> original state of the attack.
>
And the original state of the attack INCLUDES a +20 bonus from the True
Strike spell.

You're as obstinate as you are moronic.

--guppy

 

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"guppy" <guppy@spam.la> wrote in message
news:CWwLe.18819$Ie.5688@lakeread03...
> >>It's a contradiction in rules. Period.
> >
> > No, it isn't. True strike gives the first attack a +20 bonus. It
> > *ends*. Critical confirmation roll uses same modifiers as initial
attack
> > (which happen to be modified by +20 from TS). True strike isn't "giving
the
> > confirmation roll a bonus, too"; the confirmation roll simply mirrors
the
> > original state of the attack.
> >
> And the original state of the attack INCLUDES a +20 bonus from the True
> Strike spell. You're as obstinate as you are moronic.

The point, you impotent dipshit, is that IT DOESN'T MATTER. The
original attack had the +20 bonus from True Strike. That's what true strike
did, and in providing that bonus it satisfies the letter of *its* rules.
But any bonus on the striking roll carries to the confirmation- the
*critical hit* pulls the bonuses through - the spell doesn't have to do a
thing.

-Michael

 

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Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> "Miracle" <.@.> wrote in message news:ddm063$gic$1@bagan.srce.hr...
> > And crit rule is very specific with "ALL THE SAME MODIFIERS"!
> > Don't you see we could go on like this forever? It's a contradiction in
> > rules. Period.
>
> No, it isn't. True strike gives the first attack a +20 bonus. It
> *ends*. Critical confirmation roll uses same modifiers as initial attack
> (which happen to be modified by +20 from TS). True strike isn't "giving the
> confirmation roll a bonus, too"; the confirmation roll simply mirrors the
> original state of the attack.

I agree completely with Michael on this one, I couldn't have said it
better. And he didn't even call anyone names (as much as they deserve
it)!

- Justisaur