Longstaff, Quarterstaff, Power Attack, and Flurry

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Okay, so I went over this many moons ago, and got shouted down by
a couple of people, but my examples were pretty poor.

The basic question: going only by the Rules As Written (RAW), can a
monk gain the doubled Power Attack bonus to damage when using Flurry
of Blows and only one end of his staff?

Now, slow down. Don't hit your follow-up button immediately. Please bear
with my argument:

(a) certainly, a monk using Power Attack and the Attack action can
gain the double bonus, since the quarterstaff is a two-handed
weapon when it isn't being used as a double-weapon.

(b) certainly, a ranger using a quarterstaff as a double weapon
won't gain the double bonus, and in fact will fail to gain *any*
Power Attack bonus with the "off-hand" attack(s), since that
counts as a light weapon.

(c) according to the FAQ, a monk can use the quarterstaff as a double-
weapon *in addition* to his using flurry of blows. in this case,
all of the flurry attacks will generally come from the "primary"
end or be unarmed strikes (and gain a single bonus), and the
"off-hand" attacks will come from the "secondary" end (and gain
no power attack bonus, as (b) above).

If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk flurrying
with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the double power attack
bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?

If so, can he gain the double bonus using both ends? Neither end is
being treated as a "light" weapon, after all...

Remember, this is all using the RAW (including FAQs and errata).

(the last time I brought this up, the question used a Three-Section Staff
from OA, since it isn't a double-weapon at all; MSB and at least one other
person argued that the x1 STR bonus implied that the weapon wasn't being
used "two-handed", a conclusion I find absurd)

Same question for longstaff (from Complete Adventurer). Jet Li
using such a beast (in the Once Upon a Time in China series, and
Fong Sai Yuk) is *fairly* clearly doing a flurry with a two-handed
monk weapon...

Donald
 
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 04:18:16 +0000 (UTC), tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(Donald Tsang) scribed into the ether:

>Okay, so I went over this many moons ago, and got shouted down by
>a couple of people, but my examples were pretty poor.
>
>The basic question: going only by the Rules As Written (RAW), can a
>monk gain the doubled Power Attack bonus to damage when using Flurry
>of Blows and only one end of his staff?
>
>Now, slow down. Don't hit your follow-up button immediately.

Too late, I already did.
 

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tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
news:ddmgm8$141v$1@agate.berkeley.edu:

> Okay, so I went over this many moons ago, and got shouted down by
> a couple of people, but my examples were pretty poor.
>
> The basic question: going only by the Rules As Written (RAW), can a
> monk gain the doubled Power Attack bonus to damage when using Flurry
> of Blows and only one end of his staff?
>
> Now, slow down. Don't hit your follow-up button immediately. Please
> bear with my argument:
>
> (a) certainly, a monk using Power Attack and the Attack action can
> gain the double bonus, since the quarterstaff is a two-handed
> weapon when it isn't being used as a double-weapon.
>
> (b) certainly, a ranger using a quarterstaff as a double weapon
> won't gain the double bonus, and in fact will fail to gain *any*
> Power Attack bonus with the "off-hand" attack(s), since that
> counts as a light weapon.
>
> (c) according to the FAQ, a monk can use the quarterstaff as a double-
> weapon *in addition* to his using flurry of blows. in this case,
> all of the flurry attacks will generally come from the "primary"
> end or be unarmed strikes (and gain a single bonus), and the
> "off-hand" attacks will come from the "secondary" end (and gain
> no power attack bonus, as (b) above).
>
> If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk
> flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the double
> power attack bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus instead of
> x1.5?

Yes, the rules are clear. Power Attack feat states: "If you choose to
use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one
end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon." The Furry of
Blows section states: "In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts
as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows
ability."
Think of the problem like this. The furry of blows gives up accuracy and
brute power with two-handed weapons from the Strength score by an
exclusive monk technique. Power Attack is not specific to monks; it is a
general technique that deals damage independent of how much strength
bonus one has. The more skilled in mêlée, by base attack bonus, the more
damage you can dish out by this feat.

> If so, can he gain the double bonus using both ends? Neither end is
> being treated as a "light" weapon, after all...

Yes as well, because each end is a separate weapon, so the monk uses the
quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon with both ends not a double weapon.
Only the monk is able to use any end of the quarterstaff as a two-handed
weapon with each iterative attack by the furry of blows ability.


> Remember, this is all using the RAW (including FAQs and errata).
>
> (the last time I brought this up, the question used a Three-Section
> Staff from OA, since it isn't a double-weapon at all; MSB and at least
> one other person argued that the x1 STR bonus implied that the weapon
> wasn't being used "two-handed", a conclusion I find absurd)
>
> Same question for longstaff (from Complete Adventurer). Jet Li
> using such a beast (in the Once Upon a Time in China series, and
> Fong Sai Yuk) is *fairly* clearly doing a flurry with a two-handed
> monk weapon...
>
> Donald
 
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Donald Tsang wrote:
> Okay, so I went over this many moons ago, and got shouted down by
> a couple of people, but my examples were pretty poor.
>
> The basic question: going only by the Rules As Written (RAW), can a
> monk gain the doubled Power Attack bonus to damage when using Flurry
> of Blows and only one end of his staff?
>
> Now, slow down. Don't hit your follow-up button immediately. Please bear
> with my argument:
>
> (a) certainly, a monk using Power Attack and the Attack action can
> gain the double bonus, since the quarterstaff is a two-handed
> weapon when it isn't being used as a double-weapon.

True.

> (b) certainly, a ranger using a quarterstaff as a double weapon
> won't gain the double bonus, and in fact will fail to gain *any*
> Power Attack bonus with the "off-hand" attack(s), since that
> counts as a light weapon.

True.

> (c) according to the FAQ, a monk can use the quarterstaff as a double-
> weapon *in addition* to his using flurry of blows. in this case,
> all of the flurry attacks will generally come from the "primary"
> end or be unarmed strikes (and gain a single bonus), and the
> "off-hand" attacks will come from the "secondary" end (and gain
> no power attack bonus, as (b) above).

True.

> If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk flurrying
> with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the double power attack
> bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?

No. The doubled bonus from power attack only applies when you are already
entitled to a 1.5x STR bonus to damage, and a monk attacking with a
quarterstaff
in a flurry does not get such a bonus.

> If so, can he gain the double bonus using both ends? Neither end is
> being treated as a "light" weapon, after all...

No. See above. You can still gain the normal 1:1 bonus from using
Power Attack
of course.

> Remember, this is all using the RAW (including FAQs and errata).
>
> (the last time I brought this up, the question used a Three-Section Staff
> from OA, since it isn't a double-weapon at all; MSB and at least one other
> person argued that the x1 STR bonus implied that the weapon wasn't being
> used "two-handed", a conclusion I find absurd)

The FAQ does have a few entries on what "two-handed" means for a weapon; see
pages 17, for example. Thus, even though a lance is listed as
"two-handed" you
are normally using it one-handed while mounted and you don't get the normal
bonuses that accrue to someone using it two-handed (the +4 opposed roll
to resist
being disarmed and similar things).

> Same question for longstaff (from Complete Adventurer). Jet Li
> using such a beast (in the Once Upon a Time in China series, and
> Fong Sai Yuk) is *fairly* clearly doing a flurry with a two-handed
> monk weapon...

You can certainly flurry with a quarterstaff, but since you never get
the normal x1.5 STR
mod bonus when you flurry, you never get the x2 bonus in its place.
 
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Joseph wrote:
> tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
> news:ddmgm8$141v$1@agate.berkeley.edu:
>
>
>>Okay, so I went over this many moons ago, and got shouted down by
>>a couple of people, but my examples were pretty poor.
>>
>>The basic question: going only by the Rules As Written (RAW), can a
>>monk gain the doubled Power Attack bonus to damage when using Flurry
>>of Blows and only one end of his staff?
>>
>>Now, slow down. Don't hit your follow-up button immediately. Please
>>bear with my argument:
>>
>>(a) certainly, a monk using Power Attack and the Attack action can
>> gain the double bonus, since the quarterstaff is a two-handed
>> weapon when it isn't being used as a double-weapon.
>>
>>(b) certainly, a ranger using a quarterstaff as a double weapon
>> won't gain the double bonus, and in fact will fail to gain *any*
>> Power Attack bonus with the "off-hand" attack(s), since that
>> counts as a light weapon.
>>
>>(c) according to the FAQ, a monk can use the quarterstaff as a double-
>> weapon *in addition* to his using flurry of blows. in this case,
>> all of the flurry attacks will generally come from the "primary"
>> end or be unarmed strikes (and gain a single bonus), and the
>> "off-hand" attacks will come from the "secondary" end (and gain
>> no power attack bonus, as (b) above).
>>
>>If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk
>>flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the double
>>power attack bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus instead of
>>x1.5?
>
>
> Yes, the rules are clear. Power Attack feat states: "If you choose to
> use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one
> end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon." The Furry of
> Blows section states: "In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts
> as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows
> ability."

Which is to say, a one-handed weapon.

> Think of the problem like this. The furry of blows gives up accuracy and
> brute power with two-handed weapons from the Strength score by an
> exclusive monk technique. Power Attack is not specific to monks; it is a
> general technique that deals damage independent of how much strength
> bonus one has. The more skilled in mêlée, by base attack bonus, the more
> damage you can dish out by this feat.

Except that the x2 bonus applies in cases where you can exert superior
leverage,
using both hands on a lever to increase force (that's represented by the
normal
x1.5 instead of x1 bonus). Since you're not actually using the
quarterstaff as a
two-handed weapon (each end being treated as separate) you don't get the
bonus
which accrues to such a character.

>>If so, can he gain the double bonus using both ends? Neither end is
>>being treated as a "light" weapon, after all...
>
>
> Yes as well, because each end is a separate weapon, so the monk uses the
> quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon with both ends not a double weapon.
> Only the monk is able to use any end of the quarterstaff as a two-handed
> weapon with each iterative attack by the furry of blows ability.

Being a "two-handed weapon" doesn't necessarily mean you're using it in
two hands--lances, bastard swords, and dwarven waraxes all demonstrate
this (among other things).

>>Remember, this is all using the RAW (including FAQs and errata).
>>
>>(the last time I brought this up, the question used a Three-Section
>>Staff from OA, since it isn't a double-weapon at all; MSB and at least
>>one other person argued that the x1 STR bonus implied that the weapon
>>wasn't being used "two-handed", a conclusion I find absurd)
>>
>>Same question for longstaff (from Complete Adventurer). Jet Li
>>using such a beast (in the Once Upon a Time in China series, and
>>Fong Sai Yuk) is *fairly* clearly doing a flurry with a two-handed
>>monk weapon...
>>
>> Donald
>
>
>
 
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Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>> If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk flurrying
>> with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the double power attack
>> bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?
>
>No. The doubled bonus from power attack only applies when you are already
>entitled to a 1.5x STR bonus to damage

Where, exactly, in the RAW (plus errata plus FAQ) does it say that?

It's my contention that you can get doubled Power Attack damage when
you wield a one-handed or two-handed weapon in two hands, even when
a weapon specifically says you can't gain a STR bonus to damage
(Flame Blade, Moonblade, etc)

Donald
 
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Donald Tsang wrote:
> Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>
>>>If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk flurrying
>>>with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the double power attack
>>>bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?
>>
>>No. The doubled bonus from power attack only applies when you are already
>>entitled to a 1.5x STR bonus to damage
>
>
> Where, exactly, in the RAW (plus errata plus FAQ) does it say that?

Here's what I used to come to my conclusion:

• PHB p. 41 ("When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk
applies her
Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for
all successful
attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands... In the
case of a quarterstaff,
each end counts as a separate weapon for the purposes of using the
flurry of blows ability.
Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still
intersperse
unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough
attacks in her
flurry of blows routine to do so.")

In other words, even though you're physically using the quarterstaff
with 2 hands, you're not
actually wielding it as a two-handed weapon--you're wielding it as if it
were two separate weapons,
just like a double weapon. You're attacking in a manner that allows you
to use both ends, even if
you don't actually choose to do so, e.g. a more widely-spaced grip
rather than a baseball-style grip.
This prevents you from gaining the leverage necessary to get more damage
out of your Strength
modifer.

• PHB p. 98 ("If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a
one-handed weapon wielded in both
hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.
You can't add the bonus from
Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except for unarmed
strikes or natural weapon
attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.
[Normally, you treat a double weapon
as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a
double weapon like a two-handed
weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a
two-handed weapon.]")

With the flurry of blows ability, as stated above, when you use a
quarterstaff you're treating as two separate
monk weapons instead of one two-handed weapon. This is exactly the same
as if you were using two sais
or a sai and an unarmed strike, etc. For purposes of the Power Attack
feat, this is *like* using it as two
one-handed weapons.

To put it another way, a monk's flurry of blows is effectively a variant
form of TWF that only works with
unarmed strikes and special monk weapons, and that can stack with normal
TWF. When you're flurrying,
you are really setting up to strike with multiple weapons, even if you
don't actually do so, just as you take
the normal TWF penalty to your attacks when fighting with 2 weapons even
if you never make the off-hand
attack you're entitled to.

• PHB p. 113 ("If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during
melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the
character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.")

• PHB p. 113 ("Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon
effectively, Apply 1-1/2 times the
character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a
weapon.")

A weapon being used with both hands (either by virtue of being a
one-handed weapon you're double-gripping or
by virtue of being a two-handed weapon) is treated as one weapon when
you're attacking, not as two separate
weapons. Since a monk flurrying with a quarterstaff is treating it as
two separate weapons, these paragraphs
don't apply.

• Main35FAQv07282005, p. 17 ("When the combat rules speak of 'two-handed
weapons,' they're referring to how the
weapon is *being used* <emphasis added>. A Medium character using a
Medium longsword in two hands is using
a 'two-handed' weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one
hand while mounted is using a one-handed
weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in
two hands you get no advantage on damage
(see page 113 in the Player's Handbook). Likewise, you always take a -4
penalty on your opposed roll when you're
wielding a light weapon in a disarm attempt [when someone tries to
disarm you or you try to disarm someone]
regardless of whether you wield it one-handed or two-handed.")

Although the weapon is physically being wielded with two hands, it's not
being USED as a two-handed weapon. It's
being used as two separate weapons, as specified in the flurry of blows
ability.

• Main35FAQv07282005, p. 22 ("As noted in the previous question, you can
decide to wield a one-handed weapon
in two hands and get the benefits of a two-handed weapon in combat. To
do so, the weapon has to be designated a
one-handed weapon for you.")

Since a quarterstaff isn't actually a designated one-handed weapon, even
though it's being used as two one-handed
weapons, this prevents you from gaining the two-weapon benefit when
flurrying with it. This would be just as true
with a Large creature wielding a Medium quarterstaff, which is not a
two-handed weapon for it.

• Main35FAQv07282005, p. 29 ("When you make only a single attack with a
double weapon, the weapon is treated as
a two-handed weapon... It doesn't matter which end you swing with.")

Since a flurry is not a single attack, you're obviously not treating it
as a two-handed weapon, which is exactly the same
as would be the case if you were TWFing with it--it isn't treated as a
two-handed weapon then, either.

> It's my contention that you can get doubled Power Attack damage when
> you wield a one-handed or two-handed weapon in two hands, even when
> a weapon specifically says you can't gain a STR bonus to damage
> (Flame Blade, Moonblade, etc)

That's silly.
 

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tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
news:ddoc6q$2gq5$1@agate.berkeley.edu:

> Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>>> If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk
>>> flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the
>>> double power attack bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus
>>> instead of x1.5?
>>
>>No. The doubled bonus from power attack only applies when you are
>>already entitled to a 1.5x STR bonus to damage
>
> Where, exactly, in the RAW (plus errata plus FAQ) does it say that?

The RAW contradicts Some Guy's assertion here. Power Attack Feat: "If
you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded
in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack
rolls." Nowhere does the feat mention the requirement of needing a 1.5x
STR bonus. That is just what normally happens; the monk is an exception
to the standard. Said monk must use the quarterstaff with both hands, of
course.

> It's my contention that you can get doubled Power Attack damage when
> you wield a one-handed or two-handed weapon in two hands, even when
> a weapon specifically says you can't gain a STR bonus to damage
> (Flame Blade, Moonblade, etc)

Correct. The monk is also able to treat both ends of the quarterstaff,
while using two hands in furry of blows, as a two-handed weapon. Look at
the example of the 8th-level monk: PHB page forty-one. "The monk is able
to attack with both ends of the quarterstaff without treating it as a
double weapon." Notice that there are no two-weapon penalties in any of
the example monk's attacks; monks are truly masters of martial arts.
 
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Joseph wrote:
> tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
> news:ddoc6q$2gq5$1@agate.berkeley.edu:
>
>
>>Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>>
>>>>If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk
>>>>flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the
>>>>double power attack bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus
>>>>instead of x1.5?
>>>
>>>No. The doubled bonus from power attack only applies when you are
>>>already entitled to a 1.5x STR bonus to damage
>>
>>Where, exactly, in the RAW (plus errata plus FAQ) does it say that?
>
>
> The RAW contradicts Some Guy's assertion here. Power Attack Feat: "If
> you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded
> in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack
> rolls." Nowhere does the feat mention the requirement of needing a 1.5x
> STR bonus. That is just what normally happens; the monk is an exception
> to the standard. Said monk must use the quarterstaff with both hands, of
> course.

Except that a monk flurrying with a quarterstaff does not meet the
required standard
for using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon in two hands. She
is treated
as if she is using two separate weapons (one-handed, essentially, from
the way the
Strength bonus is calculated). You youself even quoted part of the
relevant text:

"In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts
as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows
ability."

In other words, the quarterstaff is NOT treated as a two-handed weapon,
or a
one-handed weapon in 2 hands, even though you're physically wielding it in
two hands. It's treated as two separate weapons, just as if it were a
pair of sai
instead of 2 ends of a quarterstaff.

>>It's my contention that you can get doubled Power Attack damage when
>>you wield a one-handed or two-handed weapon in two hands, even when
>>a weapon specifically says you can't gain a STR bonus to damage
>>(Flame Blade, Moonblade, etc)
>
>
> Correct.

To say that specific states exceptions get overruled by general rules is
ridiculous.
Flame Blade is an energy beam, for EGG's sake!

>The monk is also able to treat both ends of the quarterstaff,
> while using two hands in furry of blows, as a two-handed weapon.

That's false. It doesn't say that at all--it says just the opposite.
Do you have trouble
remembering what you wrote earlier?

>Look at
> the example of the 8th-level monk: PHB page forty-one. "The monk is able
> to attack with both ends of the quarterstaff without treating it as a
> double weapon."

When you put text in quotes, you're claiming that's what the book says.
Page
41 of the PHB does not contain that text at all. Did you perhaps quote
some
other source by mistake or, as MSB would say, are you a lying whore?

>Notice that there are no two-weapon penalties in any of
> the example monk's attacks; monks are truly masters of martial arts.

You're an idiot. What do you think the flurry of blows abilty is
describing, there,
you moron? It's describing how a monk gets to make an exceptional form
of attack
with it similar to using unarmed strike flurries.
 

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Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in
news:w7QLe.684$uO2.44@fed1read07:

> Joseph wrote:
>> tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
>> news:ddoc6q$2gq5$1@agate.berkeley.edu:
>>
>>
>>>Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk
>>>>>flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the
>>>>>double power attack bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus
>>>>>instead of x1.5?
>>>>
>>>>No. The doubled bonus from power attack only applies when you are
>>>>already entitled to a 1.5x STR bonus to damage
>>>
>>>Where, exactly, in the RAW (plus errata plus FAQ) does it say that?
>>
>>
>> The RAW contradicts Some Guy's assertion here. Power Attack Feat: "If
>> you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon
>> wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from
>> your attack rolls." Nowhere does the feat mention the requirement of
>> needing a 1.5x STR bonus. That is just what normally happens; the
>> monk is an exception to the standard. Said monk must use the
>> quarterstaff with both hands, of course.
>
> Except that a monk flurrying with a quarterstaff does not meet the
> required standard
> for using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon in two hands.
> She is treated
> as if she is using two separate weapons (one-handed, essentially, from
> the way the
> Strength bonus is calculated). You youself even quoted part of the
> relevant text:
>
> "In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts
> as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows
> ability."
>
> In other words, the quarterstaff is NOT treated as a two-handed
> weapon, or a
> one-handed weapon in 2 hands, even though you're physically wielding
> it in two hands. It's treated as two separate weapons, just as if it
> were a pair of sai
> instead of 2 ends of a quarterstaff.

Yes, and the monk can *switch* between each end (separate weapons)
without penalty while using furry of blows. Just like the monk can use
an unarmed strike (using the rest of her body) mixed in with the
quarterstaff's attacks without penalty. All of these are treated as
interchangeably as desired. This is an exception to normal quarterstaff
rules which demand a double attack if one wants to use both ends. PHB
page 120 notes that the monk has special options when using a
quarterstaff.

>>>It's my contention that you can get doubled Power Attack damage when
>>>you wield a one-handed or two-handed weapon in two hands, even when
>>>a weapon specifically says you can't gain a STR bonus to damage
>>>(Flame Blade, Moonblade, etc)
>>
>>
>> Correct.
>
> To say that specific states exceptions get overruled by general rules
> is ridiculous.
> Flame Blade is an energy beam, for EGG's sake!

Flame Blade is treated as a scimitar. Are you saying one can't use Power
Attack with it? The Power Attack Feat does not say anything about
requiring a 1.5x Stir bonus when using a weapon. Your implication that
it does is unproven.

>>The monk is also able to treat both ends of the quarterstaff,
>> while using two hands in furry of blows, as a two-handed weapon.
>
> That's false. It doesn't say that at all--it says just the opposite.
> Do you have trouble
> remembering what you wrote earlier

Well, the text doesn't state it explicitly, but that what the text and
example implies. If the monk has attacks available and uses two hands,
each end can be used as a separate two-handed weapon.

>>Look at
>> the example of the 8th-level monk: PHB page forty-one. "The monk is
>> able to attack with both ends of the quarterstaff without treating it
>> as a double weapon."
>
> When you put text in quotes, you're claiming that's what the book
> says.
> Page
> 41 of the PHB does not contain that text at all. Did you perhaps
> quote some
> other source by mistake or, as MSB would say, are you a lying whore?

It was an honest punctuation error; I meant to omit the quotation marks.
Obviously, no one would be fooled by that if they looked at the text. My
first paragraph had a quote, so I wanted a second one in the second
paragraph. I went another way, though, and forgot to delete the quote
marks. And an invocation of MSB's rhetoric does not impress me.

>>Notice that there are no two-weapon penalties in any of
>> the example monk's attacks; monks are truly masters of martial arts.
>
> You're an idiot. What do you think the flurry of blows abilty is
> describing, there,
> you moron? It's describing how a monk gets to make an exceptional
> form of attack
> with it similar to using unarmed strike flurries.

Thanks for tossing the insults first, clown. Look at the example: the
8th level monk has a base bonus of +6/+1, a Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus
of +5/+5/+0. Two attacks with the quarterstaff (one with each end) at +5
and +0 with an unarmed strike. There is no fourth attack mentioned here
as in double weapon fighting, and even clearer there are no negative
penalties listed as there should be for two-weapon fighting.
 
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Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>>>The doubled bonus from power attack only applies when you are already
>>>entitled to a 1.5x STR bonus to damage
>>
>> Where, exactly, in the RAW (plus errata plus FAQ) does it say that?
>
>Here's what I used to come to my conclusion:
>
> PHB p. 41 ("When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk
>applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her
>damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a
>weapon in one or both hands... In the case of a quarterstaff,
>each end counts as a separate weapon for the purposes of using the
>flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires
>two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with
>quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her
>flurry of blows routine to do so.")

See, this is probably the main bone of contention:

I see the "two separate weapons" as *both* being wielded two-handed,
albeit with only x1 STR bonus. And if you only attack with one
end, you shouldn't need to treat the quarterstaff as two weapons.


>In other words, even though you're physically using the quarterstaff
>with 2 hands, you're not actually wielding it as a two-handed
>weapon--you're wielding it as if it were two separate weapons, just
>like a double weapon. You're attacking in a manner that allows you
>to use both ends, even if you don't actually choose to do so, e.g.
>a more widely-spaced grip rather than a baseball-style grip. This
>prevents you from gaining the leverage necessary to get more damage
>out of your Strength modifer.

Have you seen a staff being wielded by a Kung Fu expert? It's held at
one end... in fact, that the longstaff isn't treated as a reach weapon
is sorta short-sighted.


> PHB p. 98 ("If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a
>one-handed weapon wielded in both hands, instead add twice the
>number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can't add the bonus
>from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except
>for unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the
>penalty on attack rolls still applies. [Normally, you treat a
>double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you
>choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking
>with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed
>weapon.]")
>
>With the flurry of blows ability, as stated above, when you use a
>quarterstaff you're treating as two separate monk weapons instead
>of one two-handed weapon. This is exactly the same as if you were
>using two sais or a sai and an unarmed strike, etc. For purposes
>of the Power Attack feat, this is *like* using it as two one-handed
>weapons.

No, I think it should be treated like using it as two two-handed
weapons, except that you only get x1 STR bonus. By the RAW, that
means you still get double Power Attack bonus.


>To put it another way, a monk's flurry of blows is effectively a
>variant form of TWF that only works with unarmed strikes and special
>monk weapons, and that can stack with normal TWF. When you're
>flurrying, you are really setting up to strike with multiple weapons,
>even if you don't actually do so, just as you take the normal TWF
>penalty to your attacks when fighting with 2 weapons even if you
>never make the off-hand attack you're entitled to.

You're striking one extra time with your primary weapon, though
(twice at 11th level and above).


>PHB p. 113 ("If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands
>during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength
>bonus to damage rolls.")
>
>PHB p. 113 ("Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon
>effectively, Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to
>damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.")

>A weapon being used with both hands (either by virtue of being a
>one-handed weapon you're double-gripping or by virtue of being a
>two-handed weapon) is treated as one weapon when you're attacking,
>not as two separate weapons. Since a monk flurrying with a
>quarterstaff is treating it as two separate weapons, these paragraphs
>don't apply.

If you only use one end, you're certainly using one two-handed weapon.


>Main35FAQv07282005, p. 17 ("When the combat rules speak of 'two-handed
>weapons,' they're referring to how the weapon is *being used*
><emphasis added>. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in
>two hands is using a 'two-handed' weapon. The same character using
>a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed
>weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light
>weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113
>in the Player's Handbook). Likewise, you always take a -4 penalty
>on your opposed roll when you're wielding a light weapon in a disarm
>attempt [when someone tries to disarm you or you try to disarm
>someone] regardless of whether you wield it one-handed or two-handed.")
>
>Although the weapon is physically being wielded with two hands, it's not
>being USED as a two-handed weapon. It's being used as two separate weapons,
>as specified in the flurry of blows ability.

If you only use one end, a la Jet Li (and not Errol Flynn), you're
certainly wielding it as a two-handed weapon.


>Main35FAQv07282005, p. 22 ("As noted in the previous question, you
>can decide to wield a one-handed weapon in two hands and get the
>benefits of a two-handed weapon in combat. To do so, the weapon
>has to be designated a one-handed weapon for you.")
>
>Since a quarterstaff isn't actually a designated one-handed weapon,
>even though it's being used as two one-handed weapons, this prevents
>you from gaining the two-weapon benefit when flurrying with it.
>This would be just as true with a Large creature wielding a Medium
>quarterstaff, which is not a two-handed weapon for it.

Now wait a minute. A medium quarterstaff is a double or two-handed
weapon for a medium creature, and a one-handed weapon for a large
creature.

Your own arguments tend to lead one to believe that a quarterstaff
being flurried counts as two one-handed weapons, as well...


>Main35FAQv07282005, p. 29 ("When you make only a single attack
>with a double weapon, the weapon is treated as a two-handed weapon...
>It doesn't matter which end you swing with.")
>
>Since a flurry is not a single attack, you're obviously not treating it
>as a two-handed weapon, which is exactly the same as would be the
>case if you were TWFing with it--it isn't treated as a two-handed
>weapon then, either.

This is misleading, at best. If you make a full attack with one
end of a double weapon, it's treated as a two-handed weapon then, too.


>> It's my contention that you can get doubled Power Attack damage when
>> you wield a one-handed or two-handed weapon in two hands, even when
>> a weapon specifically says you can't gain a STR bonus to damage
>> (Flame Blade, Moonblade, etc)
>
>That's silly.

There's nothing in the RAW that directly contradicts this.

Donald
 
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Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>
> There is a difference between being "in game reality" two handed, and
> being "in game *mechanics*" two handed. Game mechanical two-handedness is a
> very specific concept that does not extend to all cases of weapons used in
> two hands. It applies to weapons used and held in such a way that strong
> characters can exert greater leverage, such as one-handed weapons taken up
> in two hands and two-handed weapons *used in such a way* that they strike
> powerfully - rather than "quickly". When two handed weapons are used in
> that fashion, they exert 1.5x strength and power attacks have double
> benefit. When they are used as double weapons, this is not the case. When
> normally two-handed weapons are monkey gripped into one-handed use, this is
> not the case.
>
> There is a very simple question you have to ask yourself: is a monk
> flurrying with his two handed staff fighting with it AS IF it were a "two
> handed weapon" being used powerfully, or as two individual weapons (or as a
> two-handed weapon being used 'quickly')? Does he get the 1.5x strength
> bonus? *NO*. Therefore, the *flurrying* monk is not using his staff in the
> game-mechanical "two handed fashion", and all arguments about doubled power
> attack benefits are *over*.

Quoted for truthery and clarity. Very well put.

Laszlo
 

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Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
news:id40g1lrlts329f7i8qmgmehqjg6h3v9fm@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:14:57 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov>
> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Donald Tsang wrote:
>>> I see the "two separate weapons" as *both* being wielded two-handed,
>>> albeit with only x1 STR bonus. And if you only attack with one
>>> end, you shouldn't need to treat the quarterstaff as two weapons.
>>
>>I don't see how you see that. It's contradictory to both the letter and
>>the spirit
>>of the rules for a (normal) humanoid to wield 2 two-handed weapons
>>simultaneously.
>
> AFAIC, most of the double-weapon rules tend to say 'we are exceptions
> to the general letter and spirt of the rules' as it is. Which means
> simply citing them isn't good enough for our purposes.

I see no contradiction in that the quarterstaff is really just one weapon.
It is a game rule conceit that defines it as two separate two-handed
weapons. Common sense, to me, says that monks should have the control
needed to handle one end of the quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon with
each flurry of blows attack. Accuracy may be lost as well as some Strength
bonus, but the monk should be able to take advantage of an opponent's
openings with a two-handed use of each end of the quarterstaff in a flurry.

> However...
>>> Have you seen a staff being wielded by a Kung Fu expert? It's held at
>>> one end... in fact, that the longstaff isn't treated as a reach weapon
>>> is sorta short-sighted.
>
> I have seen a staff being wielded by quite a few Kung Fu experts. And
> here I'd have to agree with Some Guy; the staff *isn't* exclusively
> held at one end. In fact, my sifu went so far as to say that he
> teaches the staff first because it is versatile and the techniques for
> using the staff mimic all weapons. He then demonstrated sword, spear,
> and chain using his staff.

Bojutsu: The Staff and Stick Arts of Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu
http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue2/hontai.html

What is impressive in East Asian martial arts is the variety of styles that
have developed for the effective use of the simple six foot staff. Although
similarities certainly exist, specific stylistic differences in traditional
schools are quite diagnostic. This point was emphasized to me on several
occasions by sensei of Hontai Yoshin Ryu-Kukishin Ryu bojutsu, especially
in comparison with their perception of Okinawan cho bo style. The latter,
they claimed, tends to emphasize a hands positioning near the center of the
staff, whereas Kukishin Ryu cho bo emphasizes a more ample te sabaki, or
active handwork along the entire length of the staff. These differences
were even demonstrated to me by using hashi ("chopsticks") at the dinner
table, where a sensei's scissors fingers (the index and middle finger
holding the wood between them) of both hands would manipulate the
chopsticks from their middle for their rendition of the Okinawan style,
which created a sort of fluttering of the ends of the hashi. In contrast,
they would slide their fingers up and down the length of the hashi for the
Kukishin bo, creating more of an end-over-end action, that also varied much
more dramatically the effective length of the staff.

This sliding of the hands along the entire length of the cho bo is
characteristic of the Kukishin Ryu, and is emphasized in the style's kihon
or basics. The first three formal basics, uchi komi, harai, and tsukue, all
emphasize this action in movements that are respectively strikes directed
from up-down, side-to-side, and from down-up. In addition, a straight-
forward thrust (tsuki), and movements that show influences of the halberd-
like naginata also tend to emphasize the entire length of the cho bo, and
alternate its ends-with the hands located nearer the opposite or "back"
end-for striking.

This shows a tradition where one can quickly change hand positions on the
staff from middle to end... which is similar to a monk's quarterstaff
flurry in my view. Would you deny the masters of Bojutsu Hontai Yoshin Ryu
jujutsu style full use of Power Attack? ;-)

> I have no real problems with simply assuming that a Flurry with a
> staff doesn't permit the use of two-handed techniques.
>> Some have also said that quarterstaves
>>should be able to make trip attacks, but they don't in D&D and the FAQ
>>explains
>>why.
>
> Bow down and worship the Holy Faq even when it's completely stupid.
> (Although, in point of fact I've been perusing the faq and can't find
> this particular issue in there so I can't really say if it's
> explanation is any good, or just whoever answered that question being
> a retard with Official status.)

current 3.5 FAQ page 17
You cannot use a quarterstaff to make a trip attack, because
tripping isn’t one of a quarterstaff’s properties.
In the D&D game, a trip attack involves grabbing a foe and
somehow yanking him off balance. All the Player’s Handbook
weapons that allow trip attacks have some kind of hook that
can snag a foe or some flexible portion that you can wrap
around an opponent’s limb or body.

Well, that's their standard at least.
 

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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:52:16 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
>news:id40g1lrlts329f7i8qmgmehqjg6h3v9fm@4ax.com:
>> AFAIC, most of the double-weapon rules tend to say 'we are exceptions
>> to the general letter and spirt of the rules' as it is. Which means
>> simply citing them isn't good enough for our purposes.
>
>I see no contradiction in that the quarterstaff is really just one weapon.
>It is a game rule conceit that defines it as two separate two-handed
>weapons. Common sense, to me, says that monks should have the control
>needed to handle one end of the quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon with
>each flurry of blows attack. Accuracy may be lost as well as some Strength
>bonus, but the monk should be able to take advantage of an opponent's
>openings with a two-handed use of each end of the quarterstaff in a flurry.

Treating it mechanically as two seperate one-handed weapons fits what
you just described. Flurry already drops a bit of accuracy, and the
loss of some strength bonus coincides neatly with barring the
two-handed advantages.

>This sliding of the hands along the entire length of the cho bo is
>characteristic of the Kukishin Ryu, and is emphasized in the style's kihon
>or basics. The first three formal basics, uchi komi, harai, and tsukue, all
>emphasize this action in movements that are respectively strikes directed
>from up-down, side-to-side, and from down-up. In addition, a straight-
>forward thrust (tsuki), and movements that show influences of the halberd-
>like naginata also tend to emphasize the entire length of the cho bo, and
>alternate its ends-with the hands located nearer the opposite or "back"
>end-for striking.
>
>This shows a tradition where one can quickly change hand positions on the
>staff from middle to end... which is similar to a monk's quarterstaff
>flurry in my view.

Or simply a high-level monk making use of his iterative attack
sequence. There's more than sufficient room for debate to just let
the question slide in favour of mechanical balance; they're already
getting a break being allowed to use str + str rather than str + 1/2
str.

At most I could see an argument allowing a monk to bypass the "one end
is considered a light weapon" restriction that would bar him from
using power-attack at all.

>> Bow down and worship the Holy Faq even when it's completely stupid.
>> (Although, in point of fact I've been perusing the faq and can't find
>> this particular issue in there so I can't really say if it's
>> explanation is any good, or just whoever answered that question being
>> a retard with Official status.)
>
>current 3.5 FAQ page 17
>You cannot use a quarterstaff to make a trip attack, because
>tripping isn’t one of a quarterstaff’s properties.
>In the D&D game, a trip attack involves grabbing a foe and
>somehow yanking him off balance. All the Player’s Handbook
>weapons that allow trip attacks have some kind of hook that
>can snag a foe or some flexible portion that you can wrap
>around an opponent’s limb or body.
>
>Well, that's their standard at least.

Reads like "retard with Official Status" to me.

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"Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96B2CE7749BAB619void@199.45.49.11...
> Yes, and the monk can *switch* between each end (separate weapons)
> without penalty while using furry of blows.

So can any person performing a full attack with a staff.

> Just like the monk can use
> an unarmed strike (using the rest of her body) mixed in with the
> quarterstaff's attacks without penalty. All of these are treated as
> interchangeably as desired. This is an exception to normal quarterstaff
> rules which demand a double attack if one wants to use both ends.

No. It demands the use of two weapons fighting if you want to get
*additional attacks*.

A man holding two weapons can fight with them interchangeably when he
full attacks.
It only becomes TWF when the attack rate is accelerated.

-Michael
 
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"Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96B2B46CFDD07619void@199.45.49.11...
> The RAW contradicts Some Guy's assertion here. Power Attack Feat: "If
> you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded
> in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack
> rolls." Nowhere does the feat mention the requirement of needing a 1.5x
> STR bonus. That is just what normally happens; the monk is an exception
> to the standard. Said monk must use the quarterstaff with both hands, of
> course.

A person using a double weapon is also using it in both hands. Yet he
does not get 1.5x strength bonuses and the weapon is TREATED AS IF he were
using two individual weapons, one in each hand. Further, when power
attacking, despite being used in two hands, the damage bonus is as for a
one-handed weapon, and can only possibly apply to the 'primary' end of the
weapon at that (as the off is light and cannot benefit).

There is a difference between being "in game reality" two handed, and
being "in game *mechanics*" two handed. Game mechanical two-handedness is a
very specific concept that does not extend to all cases of weapons used in
two hands. It applies to weapons used and held in such a way that strong
characters can exert greater leverage, such as one-handed weapons taken up
in two hands and two-handed weapons *used in such a way* that they strike
powerfully - rather than "quickly". When two handed weapons are used in
that fashion, they exert 1.5x strength and power attacks have double
benefit. When they are used as double weapons, this is not the case. When
normally two-handed weapons are monkey gripped into one-handed use, this is
not the case.

There is a very simple question you have to ask yourself: is a monk
flurrying with his two handed staff fighting with it AS IF it were a "two
handed weapon" being used powerfully, or as two individual weapons (or as a
two-handed weapon being used 'quickly')? Does he get the 1.5x strength
bonus? *NO*. Therefore, the *flurrying* monk is not using his staff in the
game-mechanical "two handed fashion", and all arguments about doubled power
attack benefits are *over*.

-MIchael
 
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"Donald Tsang" <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:ddmgm8$141v$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
> If all of the statements above are clearly correct, does a monk flurrying
> with a quarterstaff *and only using one end* gain the double power attack
> bonus, even though he only gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?

What about the part where the x1 STR bonus means he isn't using it like
a two handed weapon DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

The monk can flurry, sacrificing power for a bonus attack, or he can
attack normally, and hit harder per blow.
It's just that easy.

Get over yourself, hump.

-Michael
 
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"Donald Tsang" <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:ddoo6f$2qki$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
> I see the "two separate weapons" as *both* being wielded two-handed,
> albeit with only x1 STR bonus.

So is a double weapon, and you can't get big power attacks with those,
either, Donald.
Quit being a damnned moron! Flurrying contradicts whopper power
attacks. It's just that easy.

> And if you only attack with one end, you shouldn't need to treat the
quarterstaff as two weapons.

The issue is not treating it as two. The issue is that you're not using
it as powerfully as you ordinarily would.
You're flurrying. No super hard blows for you!

> Have you seen a staff being wielded by a Kung Fu expert? It's held at
> one end... in fact, that the longstaff isn't treated as a reach weapon
> is sorta short-sighted.

Actually, having *performed* such combat maneuvers, sir, I can assure
you that the Chinese staff is not held at *only* one end. It is a living
thing and it flows through the hands as the intention demands. Many strikes
and extensions finish with the fighter holding only one end, but *which* end
of the staff that happens to be at any given moment changes constantly.

Further, if the staff "should" be a reach weapon then so should a basic
spear.

> No, I think it should be treated like using it as two two-handed
> weapons, except that you only get x1 STR bonus.

OXYMORON.

-Michael
 
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Michael Scott Brown <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> does a monk flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one
>> end* gain the double power attack bonus, even though he only
>>gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?
>
> What about the part where the x1 STR bonus means he isn't using it like
>a two handed weapon DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

The part where "getting a x1 STR bonus" supposedly means a character
isn't using a weapon "as a two handed weapon", I guess. Probably because
THE RULES DON'T SAY THAT. All they say is that the flurrying character
only gets x1 STR bonus. No explanation of why. No "this means he's
treated as wielding the weapon one-handed" anywhere. Try to stick to
what's actually written in the rulebooks, not to your own hyperbolistic
interpretations.

Now, can you answer the same question for a Three-Section Staff
(OA, two-handed non-double weapon), or for a Greatsword (positing
the existence of the "Unusual Flurry" feat from an early 3E Dragon)?


> The monk can flurry, sacrificing power for a bonus attack, or he can
>attack normally, and hit harder per blow.

(A monk with a 13 STR will do exactly the same amount of STR damage whether
he gets x1 or x1.5...)

Donald
 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:58WLe.6390$WD.4660@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> "Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96B2CE7749BAB619void@199.45.49.11...
>> Yes, and the monk can *switch* between each end (separate weapons)
>> without penalty while using furry of blows.
>
> So can any person performing a full attack with a staff.

Yes, but said person using full attack treats the staff as one weapon
overall, not as two separate weapons while he is making an attack in the
full attack action. Perhaps it is a weak comparison, but the whole monk
two weapons in one staff while using an iterative attack in a flurry
leads to odd considerations for the use of Power Attack that the
non-monk doesn't have to deal with. This issue seems to lead to an
epistemological question of what does two-handed quarterstaff fighting
and the question of two-handed grips mean in a flurry of blows.

>> Just like the monk can use
>> an unarmed strike (using the rest of her body) mixed in with the
>> quarterstaff's attacks without penalty. All of these are treated as
>> interchangeably as desired. This is an exception to normal
>> quarterstaff rules which demand a double attack if one wants to use
>> both ends.
>
> No. It demands the use of two weapons fighting if you want to get
> *additional attacks*.

True. Of course generally without some other factor, if one only has one
base attack and wants to use both ends of a quarterstaff in a round
without TWF; you need to be a monk to do that.

>A man holding two weapons can fight with them interchangeably when
>he full attacks. It only becomes TWF when the attack rate is
>accelerated.

Yes, quite right.
 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:bjWLe.6394$WD.6281@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> "Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96B2B46CFDD07619void@199.45.49.11...
>> The RAW contradicts Some Guy's assertion here. Power Attack Feat: "If
>> you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon
>> wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from
>> your attack rolls." Nowhere does the feat mention the requirement of
>> needing a 1.5x STR bonus. That is just what normally happens; the
>> monk is an exception to the standard. Said monk must use the
>> quarterstaff with both hands, of course.
>
> A person using a double weapon is also using it in both hands. Yet
> he
> does not get 1.5x strength bonuses and the weapon is TREATED AS IF he
> were using two individual weapons, one in each hand. Further, when

I would add that this applies only when TWF a double weapon. Surely you
can attack normally without TWF with one end of a double weapon in a
two-handed grip, and gain a 1.5x Str bonus. See Page 113 PHB wizard
quarterstaff example.

> power attacking, despite being used in two hands, the damage bonus is
> as for a one-handed weapon, and can only possibly apply to the
> 'primary' end of the weapon at that (as the off is light and cannot
> benefit).

Yes, when using TWF. But that doesn't solve the monk furry of blows with
a quarterstaff when the monk does not TWF. The text states that, "In the
case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the
purpose of using the flurry of blows ability." I interpret that purpose
as meaning the monk can use any end as one separate weapon (which I
think he can use two-handed) in each non-TWF iterative attack.

> There is a difference between being "in game reality" two handed,
> and
> being "in game *mechanics*" two handed. Game mechanical
> two-handedness is a very specific concept that does not extend to all
> cases of weapons used in two hands. It applies to weapons used and
> held in such a way that strong characters can exert greater leverage,
> such as one-handed weapons taken up in two hands and two-handed
> weapons *used in such a way* that they strike powerfully - rather than
> "quickly". When two handed weapons are used in that fashion, they
> exert 1.5x strength and power attacks have double benefit. When they
> are used as double weapons, this is not the case. When normally
> two-handed weapons are monkey gripped into one-handed use, this is not
> the case.

Quite true, I just have a question of how the monk actually grips the
quarterstaff in a non-TWF flurry of blows. The text says the monk loses
accuracy when using flurry of blows. Perhaps that is one rationalization
for why the 1.5x damage bonus is lost instead of the grip issue. Also,
his attacks may not bludgeon with the time needed to really connect. He
is using lighter thumps to have more time to make all his attacks in six
seconds, not because he is gripping the staff wrong.

> There is a very simple question you have to ask yourself: is a
> monk
> flurrying with his two handed staff fighting with it AS IF it were a
> "two handed weapon" being used powerfully, or as two individual
> weapons (or as a two-handed weapon being used 'quickly')? Does he get
> the 1.5x strength bonus? *NO*. Therefore, the *flurrying* monk is not
> using his staff in the game-mechanical "two handed fashion", and all
> arguments about doubled power attack benefits are *over*.
>
> -MIchael

That's my core issue. I think the monk can use an end of the
quarterstaff, as a two-handed weapon being used quickly, in a non-TWF
flurry of blows. He loses the 1.5x Str bonus. But I believe that Power
Attack does not have any Str bonus on a weapon (as long as you have Str
13) requirement to double its damage bonus. I view it as an attack bonus
flavor feat not a muscle "power" feat; the more base attack bonus you
have the more powerful damage you can produce. The feat does say you can
treat a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one
end of it in a round (non-TWF), you treat it as a two-handed weapon. I
can understand why DM's may not want to allow this, but I would rather
err on the side of the monk since he is a master of monkish weapons like
the quarterstaff.
 
G

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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:08:07 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
<mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:

>"Joseph" <void@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns96B2B46CFDD07619void@199.45.49.11...
>> The RAW contradicts Some Guy's assertion here. Power Attack Feat: "If
>> you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded
>> in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack
>> rolls." Nowhere does the feat mention the requirement of needing a 1.5x
>> STR bonus. That is just what normally happens; the monk is an exception
>> to the standard. Said monk must use the quarterstaff with both hands, of
>> course.
>
> A person using a double weapon is also using it in both hands. Yet he
>does not get 1.5x strength bonuses and the weapon is TREATED AS IF he were
>using two individual weapons, one in each hand. Further, when power
>attacking, despite being used in two hands, the damage bonus is as for a
>one-handed weapon, and can only possibly apply to the 'primary' end of the
>weapon at that (as the off is light and cannot benefit).

Which is a designation consideration, and not the actuality, since hardly
any double weapons have ends that actually vary. Side A of a quarterstaff
is just as heavy as Side B, the are only *considered* light, they are not
actually light.

Not disagreeing, just picking a nit.
 
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:19:18 +0000 (UTC), tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(Donald Tsang) scribed into the ether:

>Michael Scott Brown <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> does a monk flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one
>>> end* gain the double power attack bonus, even though he only
>>>gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?
>>
>> What about the part where the x1 STR bonus means he isn't using it like
>>a two handed weapon DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
>
>The part where "getting a x1 STR bonus" supposedly means a character
>isn't using a weapon "as a two handed weapon", I guess. Probably because
>THE RULES DON'T SAY THAT. All they say is that the flurrying character
>only gets x1 STR bonus. No explanation of why. No "this means he's
>treated as wielding the weapon one-handed" anywhere. Try to stick to
>what's actually written in the rulebooks, not to your own hyperbolistic
>interpretations.

Because flurrying with the staff means attacking with both ends, just like
if he were TWF the staff, only without the need for extra feats. You don't
get 1.5 damage as a TWFighter using a double-bladed sword, monks don't get
it when flurrying a quarterstaff. However, monks are actually, better than
TWF, since they get full strength bonus for the extra attack, where a TWF
gets half.

>> The monk can flurry, sacrificing power for a bonus attack, or he can
>>attack normally, and hit harder per blow.
>
>(A monk with a 13 STR will do exactly the same amount of STR damage whether
>he gets x1 or x1.5...)

Not if he is power attacking. Can make quite a bit of difference.

Flurry + Power Attack = Normal boost.
Non Flurry + Power Attack (and apparently swinging the staff around akin to
a really long baseball bat) = 2x damage.
 

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Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
news:kip0g1dl7lqc67a45ig6rlr909hms8325g@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:19:18 +0000 (UTC), tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu
> (Donald Tsang) scribed into the ether:
>
>>Michael Scott Brown <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> does a monk flurrying with a quarterstaff *and only using one
>>>> end* gain the double power attack bonus, even though he only
>>>>gains x1 STR bonus instead of x1.5?
>>>
>>> What about the part where the x1 STR bonus means he isn't using
>>> it like
>>>a two handed weapon DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
>>
>>The part where "getting a x1 STR bonus" supposedly means a character
>>isn't using a weapon "as a two handed weapon", I guess. Probably
>>because THE RULES DON'T SAY THAT. All they say is that the flurrying
>>character only gets x1 STR bonus. No explanation of why. No "this
>>means he's treated as wielding the weapon one-handed" anywhere. Try
>>to stick to what's actually written in the rulebooks, not to your own
>>hyperbolistic interpretations.
>
> Because flurrying with the staff means attacking with both ends, just
> like if he were TWF the staff, only without the need for extra feats.

No, it doesn't mean that at all. You don't have to attack with both ends of
a staff when flurrying. Flurrying also has somewhat different level-based
penalty mechanics than TWF use.

> You don't get 1.5 damage as a TWFighter using a double-bladed sword,
> monks don't get it when flurrying a quarterstaff. However, monks are
> actually, better than TWF, since they get full strength bonus for the
> extra attack, where a TWF gets half.
>
>>> The monk can flurry, sacrificing power for a bonus attack, or he
>>> can
>>>attack normally, and hit harder per blow.
>>
>>(A monk with a 13 STR will do exactly the same amount of STR damage
>>whether he gets x1 or x1.5...)
>
> Not if he is power attacking. Can make quite a bit of difference.
>
> Flurry + Power Attack = Normal boost.
> Non Flurry + Power Attack (and apparently swinging the staff around
> akin to a really long baseball bat) = 2x damage.

That is only if you come to the conclusion that you can't double your Power
Attack bonus when using a non-TWF Flurry of Blows. So, it really can't be
used to justify the position in an ongoing debate that monks can not double
their Power Attack bonuses when using Flurry of Blows.
 

Joseph

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Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
news:vtm0g15t0i1a86ko0rea6m04kem5669a2n@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:52:16 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> dared
> speak in front of ME:
>
>>Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
>>news:id40g1lrlts329f7i8qmgmehqjg6h3v9fm@4ax.com:
>>> AFAIC, most of the double-weapon rules tend to say 'we are
>>> exceptions to the general letter and spirt of the rules' as it is.
>>> Which means simply citing them isn't good enough for our purposes.
>>
>>I see no contradiction in that the quarterstaff is really just one
>>weapon. It is a game rule conceit that defines it as two separate
>>two-handed weapons. Common sense, to me, says that monks should have
>>the control needed to handle one end of the quarterstaff as a
>>two-handed weapon with each flurry of blows attack. Accuracy may be
>>lost as well as some Strength bonus, but the monk should be able to
>>take advantage of an opponent's openings with a two-handed use of each
>>end of the quarterstaff in a flurry.
>
> Treating it mechanically as two seperate one-handed weapons fits what
> you just described. Flurry already drops a bit of accuracy, and the
> loss of some strength bonus coincides neatly with barring the
> two-handed advantages.

Even treated as two separate one-handed weapons the Power Attack feat
allows for double bonuses when using a one-handed weapon with two hands.
My real target is that Power Attack Feat. I believe it functions on combat
skill not raw power, hence the use of base attack bonus instead of Strength
bonus to determine damage limits. I am determined to oppose the idea that a
weapon needs a 1.5x Str bonus capability to double the Power Attack feat
bonus.

>>This sliding of the hands along the entire length of the cho bo is
>>characteristic of the Kukishin Ryu, and is emphasized in the style's
>>kihon or basics. The first three formal basics, uchi komi, harai, and
>>tsukue, all emphasize this action in movements that are respectively
>>strikes directed from up-down, side-to-side, and from down-up. In
>>addition, a straight- forward thrust (tsuki), and movements that show
>>influences of the halberd- like naginata also tend to emphasize the
>>entire length of the cho bo, and alternate its ends-with the hands
>>located nearer the opposite or "back" end-for striking.
>>
>>This shows a tradition where one can quickly change hand positions on
>>the staff from middle to end... which is similar to a monk's
>>quarterstaff flurry in my view.
>
> Or simply a high-level monk making use of his iterative attack
> sequence. There's more than sufficient room for debate to just let
> the question slide in favour of mechanical balance; they're already
> getting a break being allowed to use str + str rather than str + 1/2
> str.

Possibly, but I hate to deny it to all those low-level characters. It does
state that "This sliding of the hands along the entire length of the cho bo
is characteristic of the Kukishin Ryu, and is emphasized in the style's
kihon or basics. The first three formal basics, uchi komi, harai, and
tsukue, all emphasize this action in movements that are respectively
strikes directed from up-down, side-to-side, and from down-up."

That is getting far from the Core, though. Unfortunately, my sense of
verisimilitude trumps balance factors to me; the monk is the master of the
quarterstaff after all. Plus, my real issue is with interpreting Power
Attack correctly.

> At most I could see an argument allowing a monk to bypass the "one end
> is considered a light weapon" restriction that would bar him from
> using power-attack at all.
>
>>> Bow down and worship the Holy Faq even when it's completely stupid.
>>> (Although, in point of fact I've been perusing the faq and can't
>>> find this particular issue in there so I can't really say if it's
>>> explanation is any good, or just whoever answered that question
>>> being a retard with Official status.)
>>
>>current 3.5 FAQ page 17
>>You cannot use a quarterstaff to make a trip attack, because
>>tripping isn't one of a quarterstaff's properties.
>>In the D&D game, a trip attack involves grabbing a foe and
>>somehow yanking him off balance. All the Player's Handbook
>>weapons that allow trip attacks have some kind of hook that
>>can snag a foe or some flexible portion that you can wrap
>>around an opponent's limb or body.
>>
>>Well, that's their standard at least.
>
> Reads like "retard with Official Status" to me.

D&D writers do tend to be stubborn about following the official blueprint.
Gary Gygax was infamous for that in First Edition AD&D.