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Fixing VoP?

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Anonymous
August 14, 2005 12:05:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?

I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.

What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?

- Justisaur

More about : fixing vop

Anonymous
August 14, 2005 5:12:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I don't think it is overpowered. It really depends on how much (or
little) magic items exist in a campaign. For games where a character
is lucky to have a +1 sword at level 8, let alone even see a potion by
level 5, Vow Of Poverty is too powerful for that type of game. I'm so
not a fan of such games, to put my view in perspective, but they do
exist and are enjoyed by many people.

However, in games where magic items are more prevalent, Vow Of Poverty
works fine. The character does get a lot of nifty things, but it is
only to allow that character to survive expected encounters those
without that Feat would be able to because of the magic item tools at
their disposal.

In addition, there is also an unforeseen disadvantage to the Feat, that
of player psychology in a party vwith other members who don't have that
Feat. When treasure gets divided, the VOP character is entitled to his
share for which he'd donate to a worthy cause, but the player has to
sit there quietly while everyone else divies up the magic items. In
the general case the characters is not getting the expected treasure
rewarded for defeting the monsters, to describe D&D at its most base.
It could be a hard experience to overcome.

As for the monk class itself, though, it does get the most benefit out
of the Feat over all other classes, with druids not far behind. A monk
without the Feat can do well without many magic items. If anything
he'd like items that improve his AC, either bracers of armor or Wisdom
bonuses. Other itms are mere grav, though magical monk weapon to
overcome DR his Ki cannot are useful as well. Vow Of Poverty, though,
covers his AC. It doesn't help with DR, but the character can easily
lump it. What Vow Of Poverty will do for the monk is be able to more
easily make the monk a tank character. If he's the only "warrior" in
the party, there's no problem. However, if there is a fighter or a
barbarian, you'll have to make sure the monk doesn't outshine him every
time.

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 5:25:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:
> I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
> situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>
> I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
> is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
> between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
> him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
> can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
> overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
> start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>
> What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>
> - Justisaur
>

In what way do you think it is overpowered?
Related resources
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 8:05:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:
> I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
> situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>
> I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
> is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
> between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
> him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
> can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
> overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
> start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>
> What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?

I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
DMG-suggested wealth levels.

VoP is basically broken with polymorph effects, but nothing else,
really. That mostly includes Wildshaping, Egoist Psions, and arcane
spellcasters with Polymorph. Monks are fine.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 10:00:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Geoff Watson wrote:
> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Justisaur wrote:
> > > I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
> > > situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
> > >
> > > I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
> > > is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
> > > between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
> > > him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
> > > can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
> > > overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
> > > start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
> > >
> > > What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
> >
> > I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
> > know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
> > pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
> > DMG-suggested wealth levels.
> >
>
> The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.

Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks far
better on paper than it does in practice.

> Another is using Monk attacks in addition to natural attacks. The rules
> aren't
> clear on this, so some people think they can be combined.

They can't be. If anyone disagrees, I'll find sources in the morning.
Sleepy now.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 11:25:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> Geoff Watson wrote:
>
>><laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>>news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>
>>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>>>>
>>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>>>>
>>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>>>
>>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>>>
>>
>>The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.
>
>
> Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks far
> better on paper than it does in practice.

Like any build, it's campaign-dependent. A druid/monk won't do well in a
dungeon crawl unless there are lots of exotic plants and animals about.

>>Another is using Monk attacks in addition to natural attacks. The rules
>>aren't
>>clear on this, so some people think they can be combined.
>
>
> They can't be.

Depends on what you mean by "combined." You can't use natural weapons
in a flurry, but you can make natural weapon attacks in addition to a normal
flurry if you normally could make both kinds, e.g. a centaur.

>If anyone disagrees, I'll find sources in the morning.
> Sleepy now.

Hah hah, beat ya to it! Pffffffllllllhhhh!!!
August 15, 2005 2:49:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 14 Aug 2005 18:00:10 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
in front of ME:

>Geoff Watson wrote:
>> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>> news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Justisaur wrote:
>> > > I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>> > > situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>> > >
>> > > I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>> > > is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>> > > between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>> > > him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>> > > can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>> > > overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>> > > start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>> > >
>> > > What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>> >
>> > I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>> > know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>> > pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>> > DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>> >
>>
>> The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.
>
>Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks far
>better on paper than it does in practice.

He stole that phrase from me.

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

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August 15, 2005 2:49:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:25:12 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov>
dared speak in front of ME:

>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>> Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks far
>> better on paper than it does in practice.
>
>Like any build, it's campaign-dependent. A druid/monk won't do well in a
>dungeon crawl unless there are lots of exotic plants and animals about.

As would any druid, but that's not the issue.

The issue is how a monk1/druid X would compare to a pure druid (X+1).

Do the first-level monk abilities, including the (admittedly nice)
wis-to-ac abilities make up for being perpetually a level behind in
expected spellcasting power?

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 6:07:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in
news:vu60g11d0epm2nt09ep49p63kesg04qv0r@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:25:12 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov>
> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>> Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks
>>> far better on paper than it does in practice.
>>
>>Like any build, it's campaign-dependent. A druid/monk won't do well
>>in a dungeon crawl unless there are lots of exotic plants and animals
>>about.
>
> As would any druid, but that's not the issue.
>
> The issue is how a monk1/druid X would compare to a pure druid (X+1).
>
> Do the first-level monk abilities, including the (admittedly nice)
> wis-to-ac abilities make up for being perpetually a level behind in
> expected spellcasting power?
>

And shapeshifting power. The druid in the campaign I'm DMing is geared
toward fighting in wild shape, with spells chosen primarily to buff that
style, and slightly as a (very) secondary healer. Most likely, he'll
invest in wands of CLW for post-battle healing, rather than spend spell
slots. In this case, it's a question of how well the level 1 monk stuff
synchs with wild shape.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:56:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Justisaur wrote:
> > I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
> > situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
> >
> > I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
> > is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
> > between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
> > him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
> > can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
> > overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
> > start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
> >
> > What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>
> I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
> know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
> pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
> DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>

The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.

Another is using Monk attacks in addition to natural attacks. The rules
aren't
clear on this, so some people think they can be combined.

Geoff.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:56:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Geoff Watson wrote:
> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>>>
>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>>>
>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>>
>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>>
>
>
> The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.

I did up a Druid/Monk combo last night that came out pretty well. It
was exactly
that idea (high wis) that I was looking for. I did a Cleric/Monk as
well, but I thought
the Druid/Monk was a better choice.

You're probably better off taking 2 monk levels instead of 1, though,
both for the bonus feat
and the across-the-board +3 to saves.

> Another is using Monk attacks in addition to natural attacks. The rules
> aren't
> clear on this, so some people think they can be combined.

Thank heavens for the FAQ!

Page 7: "Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single
manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows
ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger,
and I’m allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of
those attacks can be dagger attacks? What if I have two
daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw
or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I
flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times
from one living foe? If natural weaponry doesn’t work with
a flurry, why not?"

"You can’t use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When
you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed
strikes or with special monk weapons. There are only six of the
latter included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku,
quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon
(any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special
monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
If you have one (or two) special monk weapons, you can
freely substitute attacks with those weapons with unarmed
attacks in the flurry (see the flurry of blows description on page
46 of the Player’s Handbook). If you’re allowed three attacks
in a flurry, and you have a +1 alchemical silver sai (or other
special monk weapon), you could use the sai up to three times
in the flurry. The examples given in the flurry of blows entry
don’t make that completely clear because they don’t cover all
the combinations of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes that
are possible.
If you have two special monk weapons to use, you can use
either or both of them in the flurry. For example, if you’re
entitled to three attacks using flurry of blows, and you’re armed
with a +1 alchemical silver sai and a cold iron sai, you can
make three attacks with one sai and no attacks with the other,
two attacks with one sai and one attack with the other, one
attack with each sai and one unarmed attack, or any other
combination of three attacks. Note that having a sai in each
hand won’t prevent a monk from making unarmed attacks. A
monk with her hands full can still make her full complement of
unarmed strikes (see the unarmed strike entry on page 41 of the
Player’s Handbook).
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural
weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk
weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry
isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra
attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry,
and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks
from your base attack bonus. It’s worth noting here that a
vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its
slam attack and cannot drain energy."


Page 8: "Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s an 8th-level monk.
Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0
unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2
hooves?"

"If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he may make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry)."
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:56:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
>(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
>8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
>three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
>attacks at +1/+1 (-5 as secondary weapons, and -2 from the
>flurry)."

Amusingly, this is wrong. It's only -1 from the flurry, since
at Monk 5 the penalty for flurry is reduced by 1... also, even
if the flurry penalty were still -2, it should still be "at
+3/+3", since he should start from his BAB of +10.

It should really read something like:

An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10 (...).
If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes,
at +9/+9/+4 (+10 BAB, +5 STR, -1 flurry), modified by STR, etc.
He can add two hoof attacks at +4/+4 (-5 as secondary weapons,
and -1 from the flurry).

--
Donald
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 1:48:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
> > I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
> > situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
> >
> > I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
> > is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
> > between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
> > him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
> > can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
> > overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
> > start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
> >
> > What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>
> I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
> know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
> pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
> DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>
> VoP is basically broken with polymorph effects, but nothing else,
> really. That mostly includes Wildshaping, Egoist Psions, and arcane
> spellcasters with Polymorph. Monks are fine.
>

Wildshaping is a Druid ability, and I was just using Druid as an
example. He could go with Sorcerer, Egoist, or whatever later.

So... How is VoP abusable by classes with polymorph effects, and how
would you fix it so it wasn't?
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 2:15:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> > Justisaur wrote:
> > > I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
> > > situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
> > >
> > > I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
> > > is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
> > > between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
> > > him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
> > > can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
> > > overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
> > > start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
> > >
> > > What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
> >
> > I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
> > know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
> > pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
> > DMG-suggested wealth levels.
> >
> > VoP is basically broken with polymorph effects, but nothing else,
> > really. That mostly includes Wildshaping, Egoist Psions, and arcane
> > spellcasters with Polymorph. Monks are fine.
> >
>
> Wildshaping is a Druid ability, and I was just using Druid as an
> example. He could go with Sorcerer, Egoist, or whatever later.
>
> So... How is VoP abusable by classes with polymorph effects,

Simple. Polymorph effects have their own special kind of balance. When
Polymorphing, you get truly amazing ability bonuses and special
abilities, well beyond what you could get through "normal" items and
spells.

The balancing factor is that--for most of the really powerful
shapes--the magical items you can use are severely limited. A Dire Lion
(probably) can't wear boots, or bracers, or gloves, for instance. You
also can't wear armor. (Note that the Dire Ape _is_ (probably) able to
wear all those things, which is why the Dire Ape shape is highly
favoured by the Character Optimization goons, and probably needs to be
nerfed in some way).

Vow of Poverty sidesteps all this by allowing the character to keep all
his bonuses even while shapechanged. The VoP bonuses are normally
balanced to be roughly equal to the bonuses a normal character would
get from items at that level. Allowing them to stack with shapechanging
effects can make the character powerful beyond belief.

> and how would you fix it so it wasn't?

The simplest fix is to say that the VoP bonuses only work if you're in
your original form, that is, not shapechanged. Effects like Enlarge
Person are fine, and can be allowed to stack with VoP; effects like
Polymorph should not, though.

A more complex (and probably better) fix would be to tweak Polymorph
and similar effects so any ability score bonuses they grant don't stack
with the VoP bonuses. While that is a big step in the right direction,
it doesn't completely solve the problem.

I'm not sure a perfect solution (one that is both balanced and makes
sense from a "fluff" perspective) exists. This is a pity, because a VoP
Druid makes perfect sense from a game-world point of view, and yet must
be banned for balance reasons.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 2:16:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> > Geoff Watson wrote:
> >
> >>Another is using Monk attacks in addition to natural attacks. The rules
> >>aren't
> >>clear on this, so some people think they can be combined.
> >
> > They can't be.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "combined." You can't use natural weapons
> in a flurry, but you can make natural weapon attacks in addition to a normal
> flurry if you normally could make both kinds, e.g. a centaur.

Yep. That's correct, and it's what I meant.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 7:04:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> >Justisaur wrote:
> >
> >
> >>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Justisaur wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
> >>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
> >>>>
> >>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
> >>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
> >>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
> >>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
> >>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
> >>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
> >>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
> >>>>
> >>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
> >>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
> >>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
> >>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
> >>>
> >>>VoP is basically broken with polymorph effects, but nothing else,
> >>>really. That mostly includes Wildshaping, Egoist Psions, and arcane
> >>>spellcasters with Polymorph. Monks are fine.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Wildshaping is a Druid ability, and I was just using Druid as an
> >>example. He could go with Sorcerer, Egoist, or whatever later.
> >>
> >>So... How is VoP abusable by classes with polymorph effects,
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Simple. Polymorph effects have their own special kind of balance. When
> >Polymorphing, you get truly amazing ability bonuses and special
> >abilities, well beyond what you could get through "normal" items and
> >spells.
> >
> >The balancing factor is that--for most of the really powerful
> >shapes--the magical items you can use are severely limited. A Dire Lion
> >(probably) can't wear boots, or bracers, or gloves, for instance. You
> >also can't wear armor. (Note that the Dire Ape _is_ (probably) able to
> >wear all those things, which is why the Dire Ape shape is highly
> >favoured by the Character Optimization goons, and probably needs to be
> >nerfed in some way).
> >
> >Vow of Poverty sidesteps all this by allowing the character to keep all
> >his bonuses even while shapechanged. The VoP bonuses are normally
> >balanced to be roughly equal to the bonuses a normal character would
> >get from items at that level. Allowing them to stack with shapechanging
> >effects can make the character powerful beyond belief.
> >
> >
> >
> >>and how would you fix it so it wasn't?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >The simplest fix is to say that the VoP bonuses only work if you're in
> >your original form, that is, not shapechanged. Effects like Enlarge
> >Person are fine, and can be allowed to stack with VoP; effects like
> >Polymorph should not, though.
> >
> >
> That utterly hamstrings the entire idea of a VoP Druid.

No, it doesn't. It just means that a VoP druid is no more powerful than
a normal druid in Wildshaped form.

I also think
> it doesn't make sense conceptually. The gods grant you all these great
> powers because you make some really large sacrifices, but only in your
> normal form? The gods don't like you changing form? Funny, they granted
> Druids the power to change shape...

This, however, is true. It doesn't make much sense conceptually.

> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
> on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
> make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,

It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
Absolutely obscene.

Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.

If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
to disagree.

> when not Wildshaped he is a support character at best.

So why, exactly, would he _not_ be Wildshaped in a danger zone?

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 9:20:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

>Justisaur wrote:
>
>
>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>>>>
>>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>>>>
>>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>>>
>>>VoP is basically broken with polymorph effects, but nothing else,
>>>really. That mostly includes Wildshaping, Egoist Psions, and arcane
>>>spellcasters with Polymorph. Monks are fine.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Wildshaping is a Druid ability, and I was just using Druid as an
>>example. He could go with Sorcerer, Egoist, or whatever later.
>>
>>So... How is VoP abusable by classes with polymorph effects,
>>
>>
>
>Simple. Polymorph effects have their own special kind of balance. When
>Polymorphing, you get truly amazing ability bonuses and special
>abilities, well beyond what you could get through "normal" items and
>spells.
>
>The balancing factor is that--for most of the really powerful
>shapes--the magical items you can use are severely limited. A Dire Lion
>(probably) can't wear boots, or bracers, or gloves, for instance. You
>also can't wear armor. (Note that the Dire Ape _is_ (probably) able to
>wear all those things, which is why the Dire Ape shape is highly
>favoured by the Character Optimization goons, and probably needs to be
>nerfed in some way).
>
>Vow of Poverty sidesteps all this by allowing the character to keep all
>his bonuses even while shapechanged. The VoP bonuses are normally
>balanced to be roughly equal to the bonuses a normal character would
>get from items at that level. Allowing them to stack with shapechanging
>effects can make the character powerful beyond belief.
>
>
>
>>and how would you fix it so it wasn't?
>>
>>
>
>The simplest fix is to say that the VoP bonuses only work if you're in
>your original form, that is, not shapechanged. Effects like Enlarge
>Person are fine, and can be allowed to stack with VoP; effects like
>Polymorph should not, though.
>
>
That utterly hamstrings the entire idea of a VoP Druid. I also think
it doesn't make sense conceptually. The gods grant you all these great
powers because you make some really large sacrifices, but only in your
normal form? The gods don't like you changing form? Funny, they granted
Druids the power to change shape...

Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
make a Wildshaped Druid powerful, when not Wildshaped he is a support
character at best.

>A more complex (and probably better) fix would be to tweak Polymorph
>and similar effects so any ability score bonuses they grant don't stack
>with the VoP bonuses. While that is a big step in the right direction,
>it doesn't completely solve the problem.
>
>I'm not sure a perfect solution (one that is both balanced and makes
>sense from a "fluff" perspective) exists. This is a pity, because a VoP
>Druid makes perfect sense from a game-world point of view, and yet must
>be banned for balance reasons.
>
>Laszlo
>
>
>


--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
August 16, 2005 11:03:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 16 Aug 2005 15:04:21 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
in front of ME:

>Tetsubo wrote:
>> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
>> on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
>> make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
>
>It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
>Absolutely obscene.
>
>Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
>form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
>damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
>would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.

>If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
>to disagree.

I've been staring at IH characters for a couple of weeks, and that
doesn't seem too outrageous in comparison (though we haven't looked at
the magical buffs available.)
A 12th level berserker, for example, is probably going to have (in his
full berserk state) around +6 str, +6 con, +2 dex, a defence rating
around 21, +2 to all saves (on top of standard IH superior saves) and
a variable DR of d6+3 (which apparently is *not* vulnerable to magic.)
He'll still have 5 feats and 1 berserker trait left over. For
stereotyping, let's give him Mighty Build and a Large Greataxe (3d6 +
str*1.5 damage) To do this, he's spent nothing that has a daily limit
on usage.

Of course, if he drops all his foes and still has attacks left, he's
going to swing at any ally within range.


--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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Anonymous
August 17, 2005 12:15:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

>Tetsubo wrote:
>
>
>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>>>>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>>>>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>>>>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>>>>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>>>>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>>>>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>>>>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>>>>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>>>>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>>>>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>>>>>
>>>>>VoP is basically broken with polymorph effects, but nothing else,
>>>>>really. That mostly includes Wildshaping, Egoist Psions, and arcane
>>>>>spellcasters with Polymorph. Monks are fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Wildshaping is a Druid ability, and I was just using Druid as an
>>>>example. He could go with Sorcerer, Egoist, or whatever later.
>>>>
>>>>So... How is VoP abusable by classes with polymorph effects,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Simple. Polymorph effects have their own special kind of balance. When
>>>Polymorphing, you get truly amazing ability bonuses and special
>>>abilities, well beyond what you could get through "normal" items and
>>>spells.
>>>
>>>The balancing factor is that--for most of the really powerful
>>>shapes--the magical items you can use are severely limited. A Dire Lion
>>>(probably) can't wear boots, or bracers, or gloves, for instance. You
>>>also can't wear armor. (Note that the Dire Ape _is_ (probably) able to
>>>wear all those things, which is why the Dire Ape shape is highly
>>>favoured by the Character Optimization goons, and probably needs to be
>>>nerfed in some way).
>>>
>>>Vow of Poverty sidesteps all this by allowing the character to keep all
>>>his bonuses even while shapechanged. The VoP bonuses are normally
>>>balanced to be roughly equal to the bonuses a normal character would
>>>get from items at that level. Allowing them to stack with shapechanging
>>>effects can make the character powerful beyond belief.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>and how would you fix it so it wasn't?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>The simplest fix is to say that the VoP bonuses only work if you're in
>>>your original form, that is, not shapechanged. Effects like Enlarge
>>>Person are fine, and can be allowed to stack with VoP; effects like
>>>Polymorph should not, though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> That utterly hamstrings the entire idea of a VoP Druid.
>>
>>
>
>No, it doesn't. It just means that a VoP druid is no more powerful than
>a normal druid in Wildshaped form.
>
> I also think
>
>
>>it doesn't make sense conceptually. The gods grant you all these great
>>powers because you make some really large sacrifices, but only in your
>>normal form? The gods don't like you changing form? Funny, they granted
>>Druids the power to change shape...
>>
>>
>
>This, however, is true. It doesn't make much sense conceptually.
>
>
>
>> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
>>on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
>>make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
>>
>>
>
>It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
>Absolutely obscene.
>
>Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
>form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
>damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
>would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
>
>If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
>to disagree.
>
>
Yes we will. For what the character gives up, that seems alright
with me. Both as a player AND as a GM. I guess we have different
definitions of "obscene".

>
>
>>when not Wildshaped he is a support character at best.
>>
>>
>
>So why, exactly, would he _not_ be Wildshaped in a danger zone?
>
>
Because life isn't a danger zone 24/7?

>Laszlo
>
>
>


--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 4:23:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On 16 Aug 2005 15:04:21 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> in front of ME:
>
> >Tetsubo wrote:
> >> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
> >> on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
> >> make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
> >
> >It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
> >Absolutely obscene.
> >
> >Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
> >form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
> >damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
> >would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
>
> >If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
> >to disagree.
>
> I've been staring at IH characters for a couple of weeks, and that
> doesn't seem too outrageous in comparison (though we haven't looked at
> the magical buffs available.)
> A 12th level berserker, for example, is probably going to have (in his
> full berserk state) around +6 str, +6 con, +2 dex, a defence rating
> around 21, +2 to all saves (on top of standard IH superior saves) and
> a variable DR of d6+3 (which apparently is *not* vulnerable to magic.)
> He'll still have 5 feats and 1 berserker trait left over. For
> stereotyping, let's give him Mighty Build and a Large Greataxe (3d6 +
> str*1.5 damage) To do this, he's spent nothing that has a daily limit
> on usage.
>
> Of course, if he drops all his foes and still has attacks left, he's
> going to swing at any ally within range.

That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
entails.

(I don't have Iron Heroes, so I can't really get into the specifics)

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 4:27:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> >
> >It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
> >Absolutely obscene.
> >
> >Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
> >form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
> >damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
> >would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
> >
> >If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
> >to disagree.
>
> Yes we will. For what the character gives up, that seems alright
> with me. Both as a player AND as a GM. I guess we have different
> definitions of "obscene".

Fair enough. I personally would never allow it, unless the other
characters were similarly overpowered.

> >>when not Wildshaped he is a support character at best.
> >
> >So why, exactly, would he _not_ be Wildshaped in a danger zone?
> >
> >
> Because life isn't a danger zone 24/7?

I don't think you understood the question.

You said "when not Wildshaped he is a support character at best". And I
asked why he would ever _not_ be Wildshaped in a danger zone.

When he's _not_ in a danger zone, NOBODY CARES if he's "a support
character at best". In RP situations and safe places, support
characters are no weaker (and often stronger) than primaries. That's
like saying "well, when a Barbarian doesn't have any weapons, he's kind
of weak".

The point is that when it counts, he's extremely powerful.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:52:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:33 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> dared
> speak in front of ME:
>
> >Kaos wrote:
> >> On 16 Aug 2005 15:04:21 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> >> in front of ME:
> >>
> >>>Tetsubo wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
> >>>>on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
> >>>>make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
> >>>
> >>>It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
> >>>Absolutely obscene.
> >>>
> >>>Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
> >>>form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
> >>>damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
> >>>would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
> >>
> >>>If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
> >>>to disagree.
> >>
> >> I've been staring at IH characters for a couple of weeks, and that
> >> doesn't seem too outrageous in comparison (though we haven't looked at
> >> the magical buffs available.)
> >
> > Um, Dire Bear, dude. 31/13/19 physical, AC 17 base. Large size and
> >Improved Grab. Your example IH Brb hits less for much less damage, much
> >worse AC,
>
> Dire Bear, attack +21, 2d4+12 with claw. (Full attack 2 claws + bite @
> ab 15 for 2d8+6)

Claw is +22, 2d4+14; bite is +16, 2d8+8. The +4 STR and the +2 attack
and damage are _separate_ bonuses.

> Assuming we use the Bear's bab; if we use the
> druids, it drops by 1.

We use the druid's; this is included in the above numbers.

> Bersker (assume 18 str, +3 for level up + 6 for bersking = 27*)
> attack +20 for 3d6 +12
>
> Relative AC: 21 vs 28 (with VoP, assuming numbers are correct.)

vs 29; I didn't count the +2 bonus Dex into the +11 AC.

> Assuming I calculated correctly (and not accounting for criticals or
> improved grab): on a full attack the bear hits for average 28.75
> after accounting for DR. The Barbarian hits for average 32 (after dr)
> in iterative attack sequence.

Bear gets 6 more damage, or 34.75 (assuming your math is correct, I
didn't check)

> Without a full attack: bear hits for average 11 after DR, barbarian
> (takes suicidal strike challenge cause he's getting hit anyway, drops
> defence to 15 and bumps ab to 23) hits for average damage of 14.

Bear hits for 13.

> (Also, assuming 16 Con, barbarian has about 150HP; bear has about
> 108.)

True.

> *Possibly abnormal assumption, berserker might have gone 16 str 18 con
> and boosted the latter at levels 4, 8 and 12.
>
> >slightly better DR, and probably has more HP. Then the Druid
> >uses his Improved Grab and wins.
>
> DruidBear has +27 to grapple check. Bersker has +20. Strong edge,
> but not a guaranteed win. Of course, Mr Berserker *could* take IUA
> and IG, and bump himself to a +24, but he probably didn't.

I think the bear only has +25. (+23 normally, +2 for extra STR).

The problem is that the bear is a lot more effective in a grapple with
his natural weapons, than the Barbarian is with a short sword, or his
bare hands.

> > One feat and the Dire-Bear druid can cast 6th level spells aswell.
>
> Yeah, I didn't account for the feat I've only heard about, but never
> actually looked at.

Natural Spell is what makes Druids overpowered in general... with VoP,
it becomes... well, I hate to repeat myself, but "obscene" is just the
best word for it.

So consider that the druid will almost certainly have spells up, like
Barkskin for an extra +5 AC, and Freedom of Movement for grappling
superiority. And that's not even getting into the powerful shorter
duration spells he can use if he has a round or two to prepare.

Oh, but wait! He also has a pretty powerful animal companion, that,
while no match for the barbarian normally, forces him to eaither waste
a couple of rounds dealing with it, or take a full attack from it every
round.

It's not a fair fight. It's not even close.

Laszlo
August 17, 2005 8:46:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 17 Aug 2005 00:23:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>> On 16 Aug 2005 15:04:21 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>> in front of ME:
>>
>> >Tetsubo wrote:
>> >> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
>> >> on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
>> >> make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
>> >
>> >It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
>> >Absolutely obscene.
>> >
>> >Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
>> >form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
>> >damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
>> >would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
>>
>> >If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
>> >to disagree.
>>
>> I've been staring at IH characters for a couple of weeks, and that
>> doesn't seem too outrageous in comparison (though we haven't looked at
>> the magical buffs available.)
>> A 12th level berserker, for example, is probably going to have (in his
>> full berserk state) around +6 str, +6 con, +2 dex, a defence rating
>> around 21, +2 to all saves (on top of standard IH superior saves) and
>> a variable DR of d6+3 (which apparently is *not* vulnerable to magic.)
>> He'll still have 5 feats and 1 berserker trait left over. For
>> stereotyping, let's give him Mighty Build and a Large Greataxe (3d6 +
>> str*1.5 damage) To do this, he's spent nothing that has a daily limit
>> on usage.
>>
>> Of course, if he drops all his foes and still has attacks left, he's
>> going to swing at any ally within range.
>
>That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
>full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
>entails.

No, he doesn't; and like I said we haven't brought those into
comparison yet.

OTOH, yon berserker has about 3 times the HP (not counting reserves,)
a full BAB, about half again the base saving throw bonuses, and we
haven't looked at what he's done with his other feats (or bersker
ability, or his remaining trait) either. He's also not having to
devote any attention to his Wis score.

Or we could look at the Arcanist, but he's a bit wonky due to a magic
system that looks more like a first-draft than a finished product.

But why not...
Same saves and 'ac' as the Barbarian (likely a better one, actually,
as he'd be inclined to take the Tactics of the Mind feat, and get his
Int as an additional bonus to his Dex.) Same BaB as the druid. Free
ranged attacks dealing d6+Int damage (and with ToM, keying off his Int
for attack bonus as well.) (Also two more Aspects, but they're not as
useful.) About the same HP as the druid, possibly a little better. 8
more feats to consider.
Just for the hell of it, we'll give him Transmutation for his primary
school. Bit of a joke to Alter Size on himself to Huge (dc 11, +7
bonus) then just a dc 17 check (at +7 bonus) to polymorph into a
Mature Adult Red Dragon.

Er... well, he *is* broken in the magic department.. Though this does
only last about 7 minutes for him, takes two rounds and he can only
try it about 3 times in a day.
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Anonymous
August 17, 2005 9:40:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> >Natural Spell is what makes Druids overpowered in general... with VoP,
> >it becomes... well, I hate to repeat myself, but "obscene" is just the
> >best word for it.
> >
> >So consider that the druid will almost certainly have spells up, like
> >Barkskin for an extra +5 AC, and Freedom of Movement for grappling
> >superiority. And that's not even getting into the powerful shorter
> >duration spells he can use if he has a round or two to prepare.
> >
> >Oh, but wait! He also has a pretty powerful animal companion, that,
> >while no match for the barbarian normally, forces him to eaither waste
> >a couple of rounds dealing with it, or take a full attack from it every
> >round.
> >
> >It's not a fair fight. It's not even close.
> >
> >Laszlo
>
> I guess my problem with this line of thinking is that I'm the GM (if
> I were GMing for a VoP Druid). I'm God. If I want the Druid, VoP or no
> VoP, dead, he's dead.

That's your style of DMing, then. You'll find it's not very popular
here, and for good reason.

There are plenty of other DMing styles. Mine, for example, is more of a
simulationist approach. I populate the world, but from then on, all I
do is keep its wheels turning. If a character does something that
should work, it does work. If a character does something that should
get him in trouble, he does get in trouble. If a character does
something that cleverly short-circuits my whole campaign, then more
power to him.

In other words, my world is a _world_, not a set piece. The world is
set up in the beginning to give the PCs a special role in it, but once
the wheels are turning, I try not to muck about with the gears.

> I can scale any encounter in any way I want to
> suit the party in question. The role-playing aspects of the VoP are what
> really thrill me. The actual crunchy bits are fun but not the meat and
> potatoes for me.

Then why are you bothered by the thought of the VoP druid being
weakened? Both of the solutions I suggested are strictly "crunchy"
modifications. They change _nothing_ in roleplaying a VoP druid.

> The idea that the character is the innate source of his
> or her own power is just wonderful. I have always hated how 3.0/3.5 made
> magic items a must have. Much like why I dislike MDC in Rifts. If you
> don't have MDC armour, you die. If you don't have a golf cart of magic
> items in D&D, you die. VoP makes that a none issue.

I also like the role-playing aspects of the VoP. However, players
generally don't have much fun if their characters are completely
overshadowed. Which is what the VoP Druid does to most normal
characters. My style of DMing means that I would much rather not _have_
an overpowered character than to artificially slant things so he'll
have a tougher time.

I do not allow cool roleplaying concepts to unbalance things. If a
player wanted to play a VoP druid in one of my games, I would weaken it
to match the power level of the other characters. If the player doesn't
like the way I weakened it, he can sugggest another way. But I will not
allow a Druid to make the traditional "tank" builds obsolete.

> I'm still working on 2o level VoP Druid build. I'll post it when
> I'm done.

Not a problem. I'll probably post my observations on it when it's done.
If you're not interested in my comments, feel free to ignore them, I
won't mind. As long as everyone in your playgroup is having fun, you're
not doing anything wrong. :) 

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 9:41:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On 17 Aug 2005 03:52:19 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> in front of ME:
> >Kaos wrote:
> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:33 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> dared
> >> speak in front of ME:
> >>
> >> DruidBear has +27 to grapple check. Bersker has +20. Strong edge,
> >> but not a guaranteed win. Of course, Mr Berserker *could* take IUA
> >> and IG, and bump himself to a +24, but he probably didn't.
> >
> >I think the bear only has +25. (+23 normally, +2 for extra STR).
>
> +23 normal doesn't seem to account for (one of) Improved Grapple or
> size bonus. Course, I didn't account for extra strength.

Dire Bears don't have Improved Grapple. They have Improved Grab, which
doesn't grant a bonus.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 9:45:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On 17 Aug 2005 00:23:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> in front of ME:
>
> >That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
> >full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
> >entails.
>
> No, he doesn't; and like I said we haven't brought those into
> comparison yet.
>
> OTOH, yon berserker has about 3 times the HP (not counting reserves,)
> a full BAB, about half again the base saving throw bonuses, and we
> haven't looked at what he's done with his other feats (or bersker
> ability, or his remaining trait) either.

We haven't looked at any of the Druid's feats either (except for one,
Natural Spell). And the Druid also has a bunch of Exalted Feats.

> He's also not having to
> devote any attention to his Wis score.

Whereas the Druid doesn't need to devote any attention to Str, Dex, OR
Con, since Wildshaping grants him the ability scores of the form he
takes, regardless of his original scores.

> <snip Arcanist example>

Can't comment, don't have IH. :) 

Laszlo
August 17, 2005 10:35:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 17 Aug 2005 03:52:19 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
in front of ME:
>Kaos wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:33 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> dared
>> speak in front of ME:
>>
>> DruidBear has +27 to grapple check. Bersker has +20. Strong edge,
>> but not a guaranteed win. Of course, Mr Berserker *could* take IUA
>> and IG, and bump himself to a +24, but he probably didn't.
>
>I think the bear only has +25. (+23 normally, +2 for extra STR).

+23 normal doesn't seem to account for (one of) Improved Grapple or
size bonus. Course, I didn't account for extra strength.

Makes things worse; +29 vs +20.

(In my defence: I'm not very good at minmaxing, I've been paying more
attention to the magic system, and this sample barbarian was thrown
out rather quickly.)

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Anonymous
August 17, 2005 11:44:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

>Kaos wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:33 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> dared
>>speak in front of ME:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 16 Aug 2005 15:04:21 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>>>>in front of ME:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Tetsubo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
>>>>>>on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
>>>>>>make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
>>>>>Absolutely obscene.
>>>>>
>>>>>Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
>>>>>form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
>>>>>damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
>>>>>would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
>>>>>to disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I've been staring at IH characters for a couple of weeks, and that
>>>>doesn't seem too outrageous in comparison (though we haven't looked at
>>>>the magical buffs available.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Um, Dire Bear, dude. 31/13/19 physical, AC 17 base. Large size and
>>>Improved Grab. Your example IH Brb hits less for much less damage, much
>>>worse AC,
>>>
>>>
>>Dire Bear, attack +21, 2d4+12 with claw. (Full attack 2 claws + bite @
>>ab 15 for 2d8+6)
>>
>>
>
>Claw is +22, 2d4+14; bite is +16, 2d8+8. The +4 STR and the +2 attack
>and damage are _separate_ bonuses.
>
>
>
>>Assuming we use the Bear's bab; if we use the
>>druids, it drops by 1.
>>
>>
>
>We use the druid's; this is included in the above numbers.
>
>
>
>>Bersker (assume 18 str, +3 for level up + 6 for bersking = 27*)
>>attack +20 for 3d6 +12
>>
>>Relative AC: 21 vs 28 (with VoP, assuming numbers are correct.)
>>
>>
>
>vs 29; I didn't count the +2 bonus Dex into the +11 AC.
>
>
>
>>Assuming I calculated correctly (and not accounting for criticals or
>>improved grab): on a full attack the bear hits for average 28.75
>>after accounting for DR. The Barbarian hits for average 32 (after dr)
>>in iterative attack sequence.
>>
>>
>
>Bear gets 6 more damage, or 34.75 (assuming your math is correct, I
>didn't check)
>
>
>
>>Without a full attack: bear hits for average 11 after DR, barbarian
>>(takes suicidal strike challenge cause he's getting hit anyway, drops
>>defence to 15 and bumps ab to 23) hits for average damage of 14.
>>
>>
>
>Bear hits for 13.
>
>
>
>>(Also, assuming 16 Con, barbarian has about 150HP; bear has about
>>108.)
>>
>>
>
>True.
>
>
>
>>*Possibly abnormal assumption, berserker might have gone 16 str 18 con
>>and boosted the latter at levels 4, 8 and 12.
>>
>>
>>
>>>slightly better DR, and probably has more HP. Then the Druid
>>>uses his Improved Grab and wins.
>>>
>>>
>>DruidBear has +27 to grapple check. Bersker has +20. Strong edge,
>>but not a guaranteed win. Of course, Mr Berserker *could* take IUA
>>and IG, and bump himself to a +24, but he probably didn't.
>>
>>
>
>I think the bear only has +25. (+23 normally, +2 for extra STR).
>
>The problem is that the bear is a lot more effective in a grapple with
>his natural weapons, than the Barbarian is with a short sword, or his
>bare hands.
>
>
>
>>> One feat and the Dire-Bear druid can cast 6th level spells aswell.
>>>
>>>
>>Yeah, I didn't account for the feat I've only heard about, but never
>>actually looked at.
>>
>>
>
>Natural Spell is what makes Druids overpowered in general... with VoP,
>it becomes... well, I hate to repeat myself, but "obscene" is just the
>best word for it.
>
>So consider that the druid will almost certainly have spells up, like
>Barkskin for an extra +5 AC, and Freedom of Movement for grappling
>superiority. And that's not even getting into the powerful shorter
>duration spells he can use if he has a round or two to prepare.
>
>Oh, but wait! He also has a pretty powerful animal companion, that,
>while no match for the barbarian normally, forces him to eaither waste
>a couple of rounds dealing with it, or take a full attack from it every
>round.
>
>It's not a fair fight. It's not even close.
>
>Laszlo
>
>
>
I guess my problem with this line of thinking is that I'm the GM (if
I were GMing for a VoP Druid). I'm God. If I want the Druid, VoP or no
VoP, dead, he's dead. I can scale any encounter in any way I want to
suit the party in question. The role-playing aspects of the VoP are what
really thrill me. The actual crunchy bits are fun but not the meat and
potatoes for me. The idea that the character is the innate source of his
or her own power is just wonderful. I have always hated how 3.0/3.5 made
magic items a must have. Much like why I dislike MDC in Rifts. If you
don't have MDC armour, you die. If you don't have a golf cart of magic
items in D&D, you die. VoP makes that a none issue.

I'm still working on 2o level VoP Druid build. I'll post it when
I'm done.

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 1:27:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:

> I guess my problem with this line of thinking is that I'm the GM (if
> I were GMing for a VoP Druid). I'm God. If I want the Druid, VoP or no
> VoP, dead, he's dead. I can scale any encounter in any way I want to
> suit the party in question. The role-playing aspects of the VoP are what
> really thrill me. The actual crunchy bits are fun but not the meat and
> potatoes for me. The idea that the character is the innate source of his
> or her own power is just wonderful. I have always hated how 3.0/3.5 made
> magic items a must have. Much like why I dislike MDC in Rifts. If you
> don't have MDC armour, you die. If you don't have a golf cart of magic
> items in D&D, you die. VoP makes that a none issue.

My problem is more with the player than the feat in particular. HE
WILL EXPLOIT every little bit he can, then he ends up with a character
infinitely more powerful than the other players, then they get jelous,
irritated, etc, and possibly quit, or at least complain.

In my current campain he's playing a relatively tame (compared to his
normal characters) trip based fighter. He occasionally is more
effective than the rest of the whole 6 man party put togeather, that
was more so the lower level, but now that we are up to 7th lv, no so
much. I did have complaints from at least one of the other players.

Sure I can kill him any time I want as DM, and his current character
has died 2ce, but so what?

I do not want to remove him from the game as he's the best RPer in the
group, and I enjoy having him in the game. I want to make sure he has
as little to exploit as possible. I happen to like the idea of VoP, I
KNOW it will be overpowered in his hands if it is at all possible, so I
want to fix it before hand.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:01:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Let's assume the (human) character takes Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty at
first level. A benefit of Vow Of Poverty are lots of bonus exalted
feats. You know he'll take Nymph's Kiss at level 1. As the levels
progress his early bonus exalted feats are going to be easy to choose
from. Eventually, though, things get interesting if you/he don't
create your own exalted feats.

Eventually he'll have to take a vow against drinking alcoholic
beverages. Eventually he'll have to take a vow of chastity. These are
not uncommon for monks as a matter of roleplaying, but is the player
ready for it? Eventually he'll have to take Vow Of Non-Violence and
Vow Of Peace. Monks can do subdual damage easily so by the letter of
the rules he'll have no problem but the spirit of the rules can be.
The player cannot be so gung-ho for combat. There may be conflicts
with party members who don't have those feats. Even a paladin, no
matter how much he could admire someone with those vows, would relish
combat against Evil and wants to bury his sword deep in the heart of
the most vile villain. Is the player prepared for this?

A possible solution is to do away with the bonus exalted feats. This
will cut down on the number of minute benefits. Any exalted feats the
player really, really wants he can take for his normal feat selection.

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:36:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hadsil wrote:
> Let's assume the (human) character takes Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty at
> first level. A benefit of Vow Of Poverty are lots of bonus exalted
> feats. You know he'll take Nymph's Kiss at level 1. As the levels
> progress his early bonus exalted feats are going to be easy to choose
> from. Eventually, though, things get interesting if you/he don't
> create your own exalted feats.
>
> Eventually he'll have to take a vow against drinking alcoholic
> beverages. Eventually he'll have to take a vow of chastity.

Heh. Interesting way of looking at it, but I'm pretty sure the bonus
Exalted feats aren't meant to be _forced_ on the player. If he would
get a bonus feat and can't choose any one he wants, he can choose not
to take a bonus feat.

Even if you don't accept this, however...

These are
> not uncommon for monks as a matter of roleplaying, but is the player
> ready for it? Eventually he'll have to take Vow Of Non-Violence and
> Vow Of Peace. Monks can do subdual damage easily so by the letter of
> the rules he'll have no problem but the spirit of the rules can be.
> The player cannot be so gung-ho for combat. There may be conflicts
> with party members who don't have those feats. Even a paladin, no
> matter how much he could admire someone with those vows, would relish
> combat against Evil and wants to bury his sword deep in the heart of
> the most vile villain. Is the player prepared for this?

.... there's nothing preventing the PC from just ignoring the Vows he
doesn't intend to keep. Nothing bad will happen, except that he'll lose
the benefits of that paticular Vow.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 9:28:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:

>Tetsubo wrote:
>
>
>
>> I guess my problem with this line of thinking is that I'm the GM (if
>>I were GMing for a VoP Druid). I'm God. If I want the Druid, VoP or no
>>VoP, dead, he's dead. I can scale any encounter in any way I want to
>>suit the party in question. The role-playing aspects of the VoP are what
>>really thrill me. The actual crunchy bits are fun but not the meat and
>>potatoes for me. The idea that the character is the innate source of his
>>or her own power is just wonderful. I have always hated how 3.0/3.5 made
>>magic items a must have. Much like why I dislike MDC in Rifts. If you
>>don't have MDC armour, you die. If you don't have a golf cart of magic
>>items in D&D, you die. VoP makes that a none issue.
>>
>>
>
>My problem is more with the player than the feat in particular. HE
>WILL EXPLOIT every little bit he can, then he ends up with a character
>infinitely more powerful than the other players, then they get jelous,
>irritated, etc, and possibly quit, or at least complain.
>
>In my current campain he's playing a relatively tame (compared to his
>normal characters) trip based fighter. He occasionally is more
>effective than the rest of the whole 6 man party put togeather, that
>was more so the lower level, but now that we are up to 7th lv, no so
>much. I did have complaints from at least one of the other players.
>
>Sure I can kill him any time I want as DM, and his current character
>has died 2ce, but so what?
>
>I do not want to remove him from the game as he's the best RPer in the
>group, and I enjoy having him in the game. I want to make sure he has
>as little to exploit as possible. I happen to like the idea of VoP, I
>KNOW it will be overpowered in his hands if it is at all possible, so I
>want to fix it before hand.
>
>- Justisaur
>
>
>
The idea of designing a fighter to be an exclusive tripper is just
alien to me. I would never play a "one trick pony" such as that. A
character concept that focused is an interesting thought experiment mind
you, but I can't imagine ot would be much fun to play. I wanted to play
a Warlock recently. They are as close to a truly focused character as I
would ever want to play. Maybe I'm just not enough of a Min-maxer... :) 

To me the beauty of a Druid with a lot of Wildshape options is all
about versatility. You can just do so much with that. making it a VoP
Druid just enhances the options. Sadly I don't think I'll ever get to
play one... I've found one game in my area and it hasn't started yet...

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 11:31:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On 16 Aug 2005 15:04:21 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> in front of ME:
>
>>Tetsubo wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
>>>on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
>>>make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
>>
>>It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
>>Absolutely obscene.
>>
>>Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
>>form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
>>damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
>>would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
>
>>If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
>>to disagree.
>
> I've been staring at IH characters for a couple of weeks, and that
> doesn't seem too outrageous in comparison (though we haven't looked at
> the magical buffs available.)

Um, Dire Bear, dude. 31/13/19 physical, AC 17 base. Large size and
Improved Grab. Your example IH Brb hits less for much less damage, much
worse AC, slightly better DR, and probably has more HP. Then the Druid
uses his Improved Grab and wins.
I'll ignore the time taken to power up in combat in IH, because
your enemies would have the same problem.

One feat and the Dire-Bear druid can cast 6th level spells aswell.


Of course, IMO that says more about the power of Druids (and
alt-form monks, and polymorphers in general) than the power of VoP.

Polymorphs redone as size and enhancement bonuses (with limits
appropriate for spell level) fixes alot of that. Druids still kick ass,
but in more subtle ways, and people polymorph more for the new movement
forms (burrowing and flight are particularly handy).
Extra natural attacks are still a bit of a problem, but my fixes
are far from core; you could just ban natural attack routines beyond
what they have as their natural form for polymorphers (unless they spend
a feat or something).

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
August 17, 2005 11:31:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:33 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>> On 16 Aug 2005 15:04:21 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>> in front of ME:
>>
>>>Tetsubo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry, that sounded snarky and wasn't meant to be. I've been working
>>>>on a VoP Druid build in my head for the past day or two. While it does
>>>>make a Wildshaped Druid powerful,
>>>
>>>It makes a Wildshaped Druid incredibly over-the-top in power.
>>>Absolutely obscene.
>>>
>>>Let's see... at level 12, for instance, he'd be able to take Dire Bear
>>>form, except with (say) 4 more Str, 2 more Dex, +2 bonus to attack and
>>>damage, +11 (!) AC, damage reduction 5/magic, and +1 to all saves. That
>>>would be _without_ all the magical buffs he'd have up.
>>
>>>If you don't think that's broken at level 12, I guess we'll just have
>>>to disagree.
>>
>> I've been staring at IH characters for a couple of weeks, and that
>> doesn't seem too outrageous in comparison (though we haven't looked at
>> the magical buffs available.)
>
> Um, Dire Bear, dude. 31/13/19 physical, AC 17 base. Large size and
>Improved Grab. Your example IH Brb hits less for much less damage, much
>worse AC,

Dire Bear, attack +21, 2d4+12 with claw. (Full attack 2 claws + bite @
ab 15 for 2d8+6) Assuming we use the Bear's bab; if we use the
druids, it drops by 1.
Bersker (assume 18 str, +3 for level up + 6 for bersking = 27*)
attack +20 for 3d6 +12

Relative AC: 21 vs 28 (with VoP, assuming numbers are correct.)
Assuming I calculated correctly (and not accounting for criticals or
improved grab): on a full attack the bear hits for average 28.75
after accounting for DR. The Barbarian hits for average 32 (after dr)
in iterative attack sequence.

Without a full attack: bear hits for average 11 after DR, barbarian
(takes suicidal strike challenge cause he's getting hit anyway, drops
defence to 15 and bumps ab to 23) hits for average damage of 14.

(Also, assuming 16 Con, barbarian has about 150HP; bear has about
108.)

*Possibly abnormal assumption, berserker might have gone 16 str 18 con
and boosted the latter at levels 4, 8 and 12.

>slightly better DR, and probably has more HP. Then the Druid
>uses his Improved Grab and wins.

DruidBear has +27 to grapple check. Bersker has +20. Strong edge,
but not a guaranteed win. Of course, Mr Berserker *could* take IUA
and IG, and bump himself to a +24, but he probably didn't.

Although, 5 feats still to burn gives him Weapon Focus 1, 2 and 4 for
another +2 to attack, +2 to damage (putting him to +22 attack, 3d6+14
damage) plus IUA and IG if he wants it.

Tho if I were doing him, I'd take WF 1 and 4, and Power Attack 1, 2
and 6. Drop my attack bonus to +11, and a hit forces a will Save vs
dc 22 (in full rage mode) or be stunned. Also +22 damage. Hell,
throw a "Suicidal Strike" challenge in, drop my defence to 15 and I've
still got a +14 to hit. Not all that useful against VoP + Dire Bear
(due mostly to +11 ac) though.

> I'll ignore the time taken to power up in combat in IH, because
>your enemies would have the same problem.

Full round Stoking action for 5 tokens at level 12; needs one more to
get his Speed, Strength and rage. (3 more to get the Mind as well,
for his +2 to all saves and immunity to mind affecting effects.)
Druid takes a standard action to shapeshift.

> One feat and the Dire-Bear druid can cast 6th level spells aswell.

Yeah, I didn't account for the feat I've only heard about, but never
actually looked at.

> Of course, IMO that says more about the power of Druids (and
>alt-form monks, and polymorphers in general) than the power of VoP.

Heh. Take a look at the arcanist's polymorph. At 12th level, take
two rounds to transform into an adult dragon (or up to a wyrm, if he
wants to try a little harder on getting to gargantuan size before
shifting...)

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August 18, 2005 3:56:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 17 Aug 2005 05:45:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>> On 17 Aug 2005 00:23:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>> in front of ME:
>>
>> >That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
>> >full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
>> >entails.
>>
>> No, he doesn't; and like I said we haven't brought those into
>> comparison yet.
>>
>> OTOH, yon berserker has about 3 times the HP (not counting reserves,)
>> a full BAB, about half again the base saving throw bonuses, and we
>> haven't looked at what he's done with his other feats (or bersker
>> ability, or his remaining trait) either.
>
>We haven't looked at any of the Druid's feats either (except for one,
>Natural Spell). And the Druid also has a bunch of Exalted Feats.

Don't have, can't comment :p 
Most (except maybe the exalted ones) would be fairly negligible anyway
I suspect. Unless we give him IH feats, in which case the vow has no
right to be there anyway.

>> He's also not having to
>> devote any attention to his Wis score.
>
>Whereas the Druid doesn't need to devote any attention to Str, Dex, OR
>Con, since Wildshaping grants him the ability scores of the form he
>takes, regardless of his original scores.

Indeed. So why is he getting Vow bonuses to ability scores when the
form is supplanting them entirely?
(Bad bonus-typing would be my guess, but not having the book I
couldn't say...)
Still not quite on the obscene level IMO (without natural spell at
least, which IMO is clearly broken: druid essentially gets to be the
best awakened creature he can transform into with full spellcasting
and a feat spent instead of what should be at *least* a +3 LA...) but
I'll grant it's overpowered.

>> <snip Arcanist example>
>
>Can't comment, don't have IH. :) 

No comment necessary: Broken.

Course, I don't have the Exalted? book either, so I can't check the
types on the bonuses; but it seems (as you already hinted) many or
most of them really should not apply when polymorphed. The trick
would be figuring out a valid ingame reason for pulling them (or treat
the polymorph changes as 'bonuses' which simply don't stack.)
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August 18, 2005 3:56:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 17 Aug 2005 05:41:54 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>> On 17 Aug 2005 03:52:19 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>> in front of ME:
>> >Kaos wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:31:33 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> dared
>> >> speak in front of ME:
>> >>
>> >> DruidBear has +27 to grapple check. Bersker has +20. Strong edge,
>> >> but not a guaranteed win. Of course, Mr Berserker *could* take IUA
>> >> and IG, and bump himself to a +24, but he probably didn't.
>> >
>> >I think the bear only has +25. (+23 normally, +2 for extra STR).
>>
>> +23 normal doesn't seem to account for (one of) Improved Grapple or
>> size bonus. Course, I didn't account for extra strength.
>
>Dire Bears don't have Improved Grapple. They have Improved Grab, which
>doesn't grant a bonus.

<blink>
Hrm. You're right.

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Anonymous
August 18, 2005 5:03:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2005 18:00:10 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> in front of ME:
>
>
>>Geoff Watson wrote:
>>
>>><laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>>>news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>>>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>>>>>
>>>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>>>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>>>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>>>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>>>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>>>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>>>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>>>>>
>>>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>>>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>>>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>>>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>>>>
>>>
>>>The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.
>>
>>Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks far
>>better on paper than it does in practice.
>
>
> He stole that phrase from me.

You were talking about the old Drunken Master, IIRC?

- Ron ^*^
August 18, 2005 5:03:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:03:54 -0400, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>> On 14 Aug 2005 18:00:10 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>> in front of ME:
>>
>>
>>>Geoff Watson wrote:
>>>
>>>><laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>>>>news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>>>>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>>>>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>>>>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>>>>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>>>>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>>>>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>>>>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>>>>>
>>>>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>>>>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>>>>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>>>>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.
>>>
>>>Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks far
>>>better on paper than it does in practice.
>>
>>
>> He stole that phrase from me.
>
>You were talking about the old Drunken Master, IIRC?

I think I originally used it for 3.0 TWF style.
I could easily be wrong though.
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Anonymous
August 18, 2005 7:17:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On 17 Aug 2005 05:45:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> in front of ME:
>
> >Kaos wrote:
> >> On 17 Aug 2005 00:23:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> >> in front of ME:
> >>
> >> >That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
> >> >full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
> >> >entails.
> >>
> >> No, he doesn't; and like I said we haven't brought those into
> >> comparison yet.
> >>
> >> OTOH, yon berserker has about 3 times the HP (not counting reserves,)
> >> a full BAB, about half again the base saving throw bonuses, and we
> >> haven't looked at what he's done with his other feats (or bersker
> >> ability, or his remaining trait) either.
> >
> >We haven't looked at any of the Druid's feats either (except for one,
> >Natural Spell). And the Druid also has a bunch of Exalted Feats.
>
> Don't have, can't comment :p 
> Most (except maybe the exalted ones) would be fairly negligible anyway
> I suspect. Unless we give him IH feats, in which case the vow has no
> right to be there anyway.

Well, he _can_ take the same feats (or equivalent ones) the Barbarian
can. He probably _won't_, but that's because he has better (read: more
powerful) choices.

> >> He's also not having to
> >> devote any attention to his Wis score.
> >
> >Whereas the Druid doesn't need to devote any attention to Str, Dex, OR
> >Con, since Wildshaping grants him the ability scores of the form he
> >takes, regardless of his original scores.
>
> Indeed. So why is he getting Vow bonuses to ability scores when the
> form is supplanting them entirely?
> (Bad bonus-typing would be my guess, but not having the book I
> couldn't say...)

You're probably right. VoP gives Exalted bonuses to ability scores,
which stacks with basically everything. So the VoP druid would keep the
bonuses when Wildshaped, for the same reason he would keep the +4 Str
bonus from a Bull's Strength spell while Wildshaped.

> Still not quite on the obscene level IMO (without natural spell at
> least, which IMO is clearly broken: druid essentially gets to be the
> best awakened creature he can transform into with full spellcasting
> and a feat spent instead of what should be at *least* a +3 LA...)

Well, THANK YOU! I've been saying Natural Spell was the single big
reason why Druids were overpowered for months now, and people just
don't seem to be cottoning on.

Without Natural Spell, druids are fine. Even VoP druids are okay-ish
without Natural Spell: somewhat overpowered, but nothing too terrible.

> Course, I don't have the Exalted? book either, so I can't check the
> types on the bonuses; but it seems (as you already hinted) many or
> most of them really should not apply when polymorphed. The trick
> would be figuring out a valid ingame reason for pulling them (or treat
> the polymorph changes as 'bonuses' which simply don't stack.)

Right.

Laszlo
August 18, 2005 10:00:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 18 Aug 2005 03:17:57 -0700, chaoslight@gmail.com dared speak in
front of ME:

What, like me but less filling? :p 

>Kaos wrote:
>> On 17 Aug 2005 05:45:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>> in front of ME:
>>
>> >Kaos wrote:
>> >> On 17 Aug 2005 00:23:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>> >> in front of ME:
>> >>
>> >> >That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
>> >> >full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
>> >> >entails.
>> >>
>> >> No, he doesn't; and like I said we haven't brought those into
>> >> comparison yet.
>> >>
>> >> OTOH, yon berserker has about 3 times the HP (not counting reserves,)
>> >> a full BAB, about half again the base saving throw bonuses, and we
>> >> haven't looked at what he's done with his other feats (or bersker
>> >> ability, or his remaining trait) either.
>> >
>> >We haven't looked at any of the Druid's feats either (except for one,
>> >Natural Spell). And the Druid also has a bunch of Exalted Feats.
>>
>> Don't have, can't comment :p 
>> Most (except maybe the exalted ones) would be fairly negligible anyway
>> I suspect. Unless we give him IH feats, in which case the vow has no
>> right to be there anyway.
>
>Well, he _can_ take the same feats (or equivalent ones) the Barbarian
>can. He probably _won't_, but that's because he has better (read: more
>powerful) choices.

Except I'm not talking about a Barbarian, I'm talking about a
Berserker from a system which essentially has a built-in Vow of
Poverty. (Almost. Masterwork is available, magical is not.)

Some of them (the basic masteries that don't have token-pools) convert
over fine, but others get nerfed if brought into a setting with
D&D-level gear expectations. If Monk gets access to those feats, it
becomes questionable as to whether or not the consequences of the VoP
are meaningful enough to warrant compensation anymore.

>> Indeed. So why is he getting Vow bonuses to ability scores when the
>> form is supplanting them entirely?
>> (Bad bonus-typing would be my guess, but not having the book I
>> couldn't say...)
>
>You're probably right. VoP gives Exalted bonuses to ability scores,
>which stacks with basically everything.

And therein lies the root of the problem: substitutes for expected
gear that do not go away when the expected gear would. Maybe Exalted
bonuses should have the 'stacks with absolutely nothing' feature.

>> Still not quite on the obscene level IMO (without natural spell at
>> least, which IMO is clearly broken: druid essentially gets to be the
>> best awakened creature he can transform into with full spellcasting
>> and a feat spent instead of what should be at *least* a +3 LA...)
>
>Well, THANK YOU! I've been saying Natural Spell was the single big
>reason why Druids were overpowered for months now, and people just
>don't seem to be cottoning on.

I never bothered to look at it before, but it really does seem to be
giving LA-worthy abilities out of a single feat. Particularly when Mr
Druid can be wildshaped for most of the day.

What *would* the LA of an awakened dire bear be?

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Anonymous
August 18, 2005 10:34:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On 18 Aug 2005 03:17:57 -0700, chaoslight@gmail.com dared speak in
> front of ME:
>
> What, like me but less filling? :p 

Blegh, logged in with the wrong account. Now my real email addy is on
Google Groups. I'm glad Gmail has a strong spamfilter.

> >Kaos wrote:
> >> On 17 Aug 2005 05:45:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> >> in front of ME:
> >>
> >> >Kaos wrote:
> >> >> On 17 Aug 2005 00:23:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
> >> >> in front of ME:
> >> >>
> >> >> >That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
> >> >> >full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
> >> >> >entails.
> >> >>
> >> >> No, he doesn't; and like I said we haven't brought those into
> >> >> comparison yet.
> >> >>
> >> >> OTOH, yon berserker has about 3 times the HP (not counting reserves,)
> >> >> a full BAB, about half again the base saving throw bonuses, and we
> >> >> haven't looked at what he's done with his other feats (or bersker
> >> >> ability, or his remaining trait) either.
> >> >
> >> >We haven't looked at any of the Druid's feats either (except for one,
> >> >Natural Spell). And the Druid also has a bunch of Exalted Feats.
> >>
> >> Don't have, can't comment :p 
> >> Most (except maybe the exalted ones) would be fairly negligible anyway
> >> I suspect. Unless we give him IH feats, in which case the vow has no
> >> right to be there anyway.
> >
> >Well, he _can_ take the same feats (or equivalent ones) the Barbarian
> >can. He probably _won't_, but that's because he has better (read: more
> >powerful) choices.
>
> Except I'm not talking about a Barbarian, I'm talking about a
> Berserker from a system which essentially has a built-in Vow of
> Poverty. (Almost. Masterwork is available, magical is not.)
>
> Some of them (the basic masteries that don't have token-pools) convert
> over fine, but others get nerfed if brought into a setting with
> D&D-level gear expectations. If Monk gets access to those feats, it
> becomes questionable as to whether or not the consequences of the VoP
> are meaningful enough to warrant compensation anymore.

Ah, right.

> >> Indeed. So why is he getting Vow bonuses to ability scores when the
> >> form is supplanting them entirely?
> >> (Bad bonus-typing would be my guess, but not having the book I
> >> couldn't say...)
> >
> >You're probably right. VoP gives Exalted bonuses to ability scores,
> >which stacks with basically everything.
>
> And therein lies the root of the problem: substitutes for expected
> gear that do not go away when the expected gear would. Maybe Exalted
> bonuses should have the 'stacks with absolutely nothing' feature.

That would be underpowered, though; they're _supposed_ to stack with
spells, at least to some extent. For instance, a VoP Mage can still get
+4 AC from a Shield spell. Whether this is as it _should_ be is open to
debate, but I don't see a real problem with it.

> >> Still not quite on the obscene level IMO (without natural spell at
> >> least, which IMO is clearly broken: druid essentially gets to be the
> >> best awakened creature he can transform into with full spellcasting
> >> and a feat spent instead of what should be at *least* a +3 LA...)
> >
> >Well, THANK YOU! I've been saying Natural Spell was the single big
> >reason why Druids were overpowered for months now, and people just
> >don't seem to be cottoning on.
>
> I never bothered to look at it before, but it really does seem to be
> giving LA-worthy abilities out of a single feat. Particularly when Mr
> Druid can be wildshaped for most of the day.
>
> What *would* the LA of an awakened dire bear be?

Dunno. I don't understand why WotC refused to give some races LA. No LA
for Shriekers and Gas Spores, okay, fine (makes me sad, but OK). But
why no LA for animals? Playing an Awakened animal is a fun concept, and
they're great for cohorts, too.

A guy I knew once played a Giant Owl, which _does_ have an LA (though
it's supposed to be cohort-only). Was a lot of fun, and pretty damn
powerful.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 11:45:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

chaoslight@gmail.com wrote:

>Kaos wrote:
>
>
>>On 17 Aug 2005 05:45:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>>in front of ME:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Kaos wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 17 Aug 2005 00:23:26 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>>>>in front of ME:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>That's all well and good, but a 12th level Berserker doesn't also have
>>>>>full spellcasting capabilities, with all the self-buffing spells that
>>>>>entails.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>No, he doesn't; and like I said we haven't brought those into
>>>>comparison yet.
>>>>
>>>>OTOH, yon berserker has about 3 times the HP (not counting reserves,)
>>>>a full BAB, about half again the base saving throw bonuses, and we
>>>>haven't looked at what he's done with his other feats (or bersker
>>>>ability, or his remaining trait) either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>We haven't looked at any of the Druid's feats either (except for one,
>>>Natural Spell). And the Druid also has a bunch of Exalted Feats.
>>>
>>>
>>Don't have, can't comment :p 
>>Most (except maybe the exalted ones) would be fairly negligible anyway
>>I suspect. Unless we give him IH feats, in which case the vow has no
>>right to be there anyway.
>>
>>
>
>Well, he _can_ take the same feats (or equivalent ones) the Barbarian
>can. He probably _won't_, but that's because he has better (read: more
>powerful) choices.
>
>
>
>>>>He's also not having to
>>>>devote any attention to his Wis score.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Whereas the Druid doesn't need to devote any attention to Str, Dex, OR
>>>Con, since Wildshaping grants him the ability scores of the form he
>>>takes, regardless of his original scores.
>>>
>>>
>>Indeed. So why is he getting Vow bonuses to ability scores when the
>>form is supplanting them entirely?
>>(Bad bonus-typing would be my guess, but not having the book I
>>couldn't say...)
>>
>>
>
>You're probably right. VoP gives Exalted bonuses to ability scores,
>which stacks with basically everything. So the VoP druid would keep the
>bonuses when Wildshaped, for the same reason he would keep the +4 Str
>bonus from a Bull's Strength spell while Wildshaped.
>
>
>
>>Still not quite on the obscene level IMO (without natural spell at
>>least, which IMO is clearly broken: druid essentially gets to be the
>>best awakened creature he can transform into with full spellcasting
>>and a feat spent instead of what should be at *least* a +3 LA...)
>>
>>
>
>Well, THANK YOU! I've been saying Natural Spell was the single big
>reason why Druids were overpowered for months now, and people just
>don't seem to be cottoning on.
>
>Without Natural Spell, druids are fine. Even VoP druids are okay-ish
>without Natural Spell: somewhat overpowered, but nothing too terrible.
>
>
I guess I'm one of those that isn't "cottoning" too it. Without
Natural Spell a Druid is nigh unplayable. Wildshape lasts for *hours*.
And you have a limited number of them per day. Natural Spell should be a
Druid class ability, not a Feat.

>
>
>>Course, I don't have the Exalted? book either, so I can't check the
>>types on the bonuses; but it seems (as you already hinted) many or
>>most of them really should not apply when polymorphed. The trick
>>would be figuring out a valid ingame reason for pulling them (or treat
>>the polymorph changes as 'bonuses' which simply don't stack.)
>>
>>
>
>Right.
>
>Laszlo
>
>
>


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My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
August 18, 2005 11:45:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:45:26 -0400, Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net>
dared speak in front of ME:

>chaoslight@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
>>Without Natural Spell, druids are fine. Even VoP druids are okay-ish
>>without Natural Spell: somewhat overpowered, but nothing too terrible.
>>
> I guess I'm one of those that isn't "cottoning" too it. Without
>Natural Spell a Druid is nigh unplayable. Wildshape lasts for *hours*.

Gee, you say that like it's a bad thing.

>And you have a limited number of them per day.

I wonder if that's because it lasts for hours and turns you into
something that, one-on-one, compares favorably with a barbarian.

With natural spell, there's almost no reason for him to ever *not* be
wildshaped outside of a community.

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Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:39:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

> > I never bothered to look at it before, but it really does seem to be
> > giving LA-worthy abilities out of a single feat. Particularly when Mr
> > Druid can be wildshaped for most of the day.
> >
> > What *would* the LA of an awakened dire bear be?
>
> Dunno. I don't understand why WotC refused to give some races LA. No LA
> for Shriekers and Gas Spores, okay, fine (makes me sad, but OK). But
> why no LA for animals? Playing an Awakened animal is a fun concept, and
> they're great for cohorts, too.
>

I agree, I think everything ought to have an LA. Even if it's just +0,
or it's insanely high (like say +10 for Solars). It goes beyond making
me sad. I can't count the number of times I've gone through the MM for
something looking for an LA and it was just "-". I become frustrated
and mad.

Of course you can guestimate one, but it becomes a lot more work if you
want to be at all accurate. Some of the LA's aren't all that on
anyway, just like CRs.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 7:39:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:03:54 -0400, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> dared
> speak in front of ME:
>
>
>>Kaos wrote:
>>
>>>On 14 Aug 2005 18:00:10 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu dared speak
>>>in front of ME:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Geoff Watson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>><laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>>>>>news:1124060708.167968.311270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I know the majority of people here think VoP is way overpowered in some
>>>>>>>situations. I'm wondering what those situations are?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I have a player who really wants to use VoP with a Monk. This player
>>>>>>>is the worst power gamer I've ever met, but also a good RPer. So
>>>>>>>between being warry of VoP and him being a power gamer,I of course shot
>>>>>>>him down. But I like the idea of VoP, so I'd like to fix it so it
>>>>>>>can't be abused. If there's a way to abuse it he will. If it were
>>>>>>>overpowered for Druids, but not Monks for instance, I'd expect him to
>>>>>>>start out as a Monk, and multiclass to Druid just to slip it by me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What kind of changes do you think are necessary to fix it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I wouldn't worry. There aren't any obvious Druid/Monk combos that I
>>>>>>know of, and Monks aren't broken with VoP. For Monks, VoP is actually
>>>>>>pretty nicely balanced, assuming the other characters are around the
>>>>>>DMG-suggested wealth levels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The main Monk/Druid combo is the Monk1/DruidX for Wis bonus to AC.
>>>>
>>>>Sure. It's what Werebat would call a munchkin-trap, though. Looks far
>>>>better on paper than it does in practice.
>>>
>>>
>>>He stole that phrase from me.
>>
>>You were talking about the old Drunken Master, IIRC?
>
>
> I think I originally used it for 3.0 TWF style.
> I could easily be wrong though.

Ah, 3.0 TWF style was still riding the coat-tails of 2E TWF (the ONLY
choice for fighters). I can see how you might apply the term, for
different reasons.

I remember first encountering it in a discussion about the 3.0 Drunken
Master, though.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 8:10:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
>Indeed. So why is he getting Vow bonuses to ability scores when the
>form is supplanting them entirely?
>(Bad bonus-typing would be my guess, but not having the book I
>couldn't say...)

Exalted or Sacred bonuses, as I recall. In any case, they stack with
almost everything...

Donald
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:19:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Benjamin Adams wrote:
> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1124296049.248978.316860@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> In LP, polymorph/wildshape adds half of the new shape's racial mods to
> your base stats as a size bonus (thus, wildshaping into a dire ape would
> add +6 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con...which means if a druid wants to be a
> melee monster, it doesn't pay to dump physical stats), caps the natural
> armor bonus at half caster level, and does not allow polymorphing to
> change creature type (so a humanoid druid does not count as an animal
> while wildshaped).
>

I'd rather not mess with core, that's why I'm looking at VoP instead of
wildshape or natural spell. But this does seem like a pretty good
idea.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 4:49:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:
> Benjamin Adams <benadams1@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > If you want to attack the problem from the VoP end, just say that the
> > VoP bonuses are suppressed while he's in wildshape, then let him
> > unlock a particular bonus type by spending an Exalted feat.
> >
> > If you want to deal with the problem by tweaking the polymorph rules
> > (which is what I'd recommend), take a page out of the Living Planar
> > handbook.
> >
> > In LP, polymorph/wildshape adds half of the new shape's racial mods to
> > your base stats as a size bonus (thus, wildshaping into a dire ape
> > would add +6 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con...which means if a druid wants to
> > be a melee monster, it doesn't pay to dump physical stats), caps the
> > natural armor bonus at half caster level, and does not allow
> > polymorphing to change creature type (so a humanoid druid does not
> > count as an animal while wildshaped).
>
> Or check out Rich Burlew's (yes, Order of the Stick guy) polymorph
> articles at http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html
>
> Well thought out, handle most of the things I'd want done differently.
> I'll skip most of the details -- read the articles for those -- but
> touch one ability scores.
>
> You don't gain the ability scores of the target creature type. You
> replace your racial bonuses with those of the creature type, for
> physical ability scores. The example in the article talks about a Wiz7
> polymorphing into an ogre mage (+10 Str); he replaces his racial
> bonus-or-penalty to strength with a +7 racial bonus (because it's capped
> by his caster level, remember).
>
> Personally, I like this kind of behavior. Assuming you're high enough
> level to gain the whole bonus, it means a 'strong druid' becomes a
> 'strong bear', and so on, rather than a weak druid becoming a standard
> bear.
>
> It *does* mean more work in preparation -- you have to figure out and
> apply the bonus in each case -- but the game results are much closer to
> what I want to see in play.
>

This looks pretty good too. It doesn't look like it would help much
with VoP though. There's some stuff I don't really care for in there
too like not getting DR or SR. Might just be knee jerk though. I
think there ought to be a lower level version of the spells for just
humanoids, or meld it into animorph perhaps. The nerfing of PAO seems
a bit extreme, but the abuses are pretty bad.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 6:59:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
>
> >Keith Davies wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Benjamin Adams <benadams1@cox.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>If you want to attack the problem from the VoP end, just say that the
> >>>VoP bonuses are suppressed while he's in wildshape, then let him
> >>>unlock a particular bonus type by spending an Exalted feat.
> >>>
> >>>If you want to deal with the problem by tweaking the polymorph rules
> >>>(which is what I'd recommend), take a page out of the Living Planar
> >>>handbook.
> >>>
> >>>In LP, polymorph/wildshape adds half of the new shape's racial mods to
> >>>your base stats as a size bonus (thus, wildshaping into a dire ape
> >>>would add +6 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con...which means if a druid wants to
> >>>be a melee monster, it doesn't pay to dump physical stats), caps the
> >>>natural armor bonus at half caster level, and does not allow
> >>>polymorphing to change creature type (so a humanoid druid does not
> >>>count as an animal while wildshaped).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Or check out Rich Burlew's (yes, Order of the Stick guy) polymorph
> >>articles at http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html
> >>
> >>Well thought out, handle most of the things I'd want done differently.
> >>I'll skip most of the details -- read the articles for those -- but
> >>touch one ability scores.
> >>
> >>You don't gain the ability scores of the target creature type. You
> >>replace your racial bonuses with those of the creature type, for
> >>physical ability scores. The example in the article talks about a Wiz7
> >>polymorphing into an ogre mage (+10 Str); he replaces his racial
> >>bonus-or-penalty to strength with a +7 racial bonus (because it's capped
> >>by his caster level, remember).
> >>
> >>Personally, I like this kind of behavior. Assuming you're high enough
> >>level to gain the whole bonus, it means a 'strong druid' becomes a
> >>'strong bear', and so on, rather than a weak druid becoming a standard
> >>bear.
> >>
> >>It *does* mean more work in preparation -- you have to figure out and
> >>apply the bonus in each case -- but the game results are much closer to
> >>what I want to see in play.
> >
> >This looks pretty good too. It doesn't look like it would help much
> >with VoP though. There's some stuff I don't really care for in there
> >too like not getting DR or SR. Might just be knee jerk though. I
> >think there ought to be a lower level version of the spells for just
> >humanoids, or meld it into animorph perhaps. The nerfing of PAO seems
> >a bit extreme, but the abuses are pretty bad.
>
> I read something today that might help solve the Natural Spell/VoP
> issue. How about adding a +1 level to any spell cast while Wildshaped
> and using Natural Spell? Would that bring the Feat combo closer to
> "balanced" for most people?

You mean Natural Spell becomes a Metamagic feat with +1 to level of
spell? Silent and Still are each +1 IIRC, so +1 for just using the
spell while in a shape that normally doesn't have the dexterity and/or
vocal cords to do so might be alright, since you still have to worry
about things that you wouldn't with silent &/or still. That seems like
an elegant solution to the natural spell part of the equation.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 7:03:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1124296049.248978.316860@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> I do not want to remove him from the game as he's the best RPer in the
> group, and I enjoy having him in the game. I want to make sure he has
> as little to exploit as possible. I happen to like the idea of VoP, I
> KNOW it will be overpowered in his hands if it is at all possible, so
> I want to fix it before hand.

The fundamental problem with VoP druids is in the way the VoP bonuses
interact with the polymorph rules. Because the bonuses are not
tied to any equipment, they're always on when the druid is
wildshaped, which screws with one of the main balancing factors for
polymorphing.

So anyway, when it comes to fixing the VoP/polymorph interaction,
you have two choices. You can throttle down the VoP bonuses
when he's wildshaped, or you can keep the VoP bonuses while
throttling down the polymorph bonuses.

If you want to attack the problem from the VoP end, just say that
the VoP bonuses are suppressed while he's in wildshape, then let
him unlock a particular bonus type by spending an Exalted feat.

If you want to deal with the problem by tweaking the polymorph
rules (which is what I'd recommend), take a page out of the
Living Planar handbook.

In LP, polymorph/wildshape adds half of the new shape's racial mods to
your base stats as a size bonus (thus, wildshaping into a dire ape would
add +6 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con...which means if a druid wants to be a
melee monster, it doesn't pay to dump physical stats), caps the natural
armor bonus at half caster level, and does not allow polymorphing to
change creature type (so a humanoid druid does not count as an animal
while wildshaped).

-Ben Adams
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