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Living Greyhawk Monk, 1st Draft

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Anonymous
August 14, 2005 10:59:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I haven't added the flavor text in yet, but I'd like some opinions on
this Living Greyhawk build. TIA

Morgan Willowleaf

Human Male, Monk, 1st Level, Lawful Good

Str: 14 (6 points) +2
Dex: 14 (6 points) +2
Con: 14 (6 points) +2
Int: 12 (4 points) +1
Wis: 14 (6 points) +2
Cha: 8 (0 points) -1
28 Point Buy

Base Speed: 30
Languages: Common and ???

HP: 10
Initiative: +6 (+2 DX, +4 Improved Initiative)
BAB: +0
BAB Melee: +2 (+2 ST)
BAB Missile: +2 (+2 DX)
Flurry of Blows: +0/+0 (+2/+2 ST)
Saves: Fort +4 (+2 CN), Ref +4 (+2 DX), and Will +4 (+2 WS)
Armour Class: 14 (+2 DW, +2 WS)

Skills: 1st level points: 24 (4 + 1 (+1 IN)) x 4 + 4 (Human Bonus) = 24
6 each following level (4 + 1 (+1 IN)) +1 (Human Bonus) = 6

Class Skills:
Balance (DX) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
Climb (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
Concentration (CN) +2 (+2 CN Bonus)
Escape Artist (DX) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
Hide (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
Jump (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
Knowledge (Religion) (IN) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 IN Bonus)
Listen (WS) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
Move Silently (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
Sense Motive (WS) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
Spot (WS) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
Swim (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
Tumble (DX) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)

Cross-class Skills:
Heal (WS) +2 (+2 WS Bonus)
Ride (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
Search (IN) +2 (+2 IN Bonus)
Survival (WS) +2 (+2 WS Bonus)
Use Rope (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)

Feats: 3 total at 1st level
Improved Grapple: Do not provoke an AoO, +4 on Grapple checks.
Improved Initiative: +4 on Initiative checks.
Stunning Fist: Stun opponent with Unarmed Attack, DC 12 save vs. Fort
(DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + WS Bonus). Usable 1/day per Monk level.


Equipment:
Backpack
Bed Roll
Mess Kit
Waterskin
Wool Cap
Sandals
Two changes of clothes
1 Dagger (1d4 19-20/x2, 10 ft. RI. 1 lb. Piercing or slashing)
1 Quaterstaff (1d6/1d6 x2, Bludgeoning)
2 Kama (1d6 x2, Slashing, Trip Attacks)
1 Sling (1d4 x2, 50 ft. RI, Bludgeoning)
Flint & Steel
Rations (week)
Grooming Kit
Belt Pouch (7 gp)

Description:

Morgan is a solidly built 6’ tall human male. He has long, dark brown
hair, often worn in a single braid. He has green eyes and a tanned
complexion. His clothing is simple and plain, that befitting a Monk. His
equipment is worn but well cared for.

Personal History:


Goals:


Personality:


Build Plan: Feat Choices and Ability Boosts.

1st Level: Feats (Improved Initiative, Improved Grapple, and Stunning Fist)

2nd Level: Feat (Combat Reflexes)

3rd Level: Feat (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Attack)

4th Level: , +1 DX

5th Level: N/A

6th Level: Feat (Weapon Finesse: Unarmed Attack)

7th Level: N/A

8th Level: N/A, +1 WS

9th Level: Feat (Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike)

10th Level: N/A

11th Level: N/A

12th Level: Feat (Axiomatic Strike), +1 DX

13th Level: N/A

14th Level: N/A

15th Level: Feat (Power Critical: Unarmed Attack)

16th Level: +1 WS

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
August 14, 2005 10:59:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Tetsubo" <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:p t2dnSCDBpFtUWLfRVn-pw@comcast.com...
> I haven't added the flavor text in yet, but I'd like some opinions on
> this Living Greyhawk build. TIA
>
> Morgan Willowleaf
>
> Human Male, Monk, 1st Level, Lawful Good
>
> Str: 14 (6 points) +2
> Dex: 14 (6 points) +2
> Con: 14 (6 points) +2
> Int: 12 (4 points) +1
> Wis: 14 (6 points) +2
> Cha: 8 (0 points) -1
> 28 Point Buy
>
> Base Speed: 30
> Languages: Common and ???

What's your home region? That may influence your choice of bonus language.
Consider Ancient Sueloise, Ancient Flan, or Old Oeridian to provide flavor
and give you an extra chance to help in investigative mods (the first two in
particular).



>
> HP: 10
> Initiative: +6 (+2 DX, +4 Improved Initiative)
> BAB: +0
> BAB Melee: +2 (+2 ST)
> BAB Missile: +2 (+2 DX)
> Flurry of Blows: +0/+0 (+2/+2 ST)
> Saves: Fort +4 (+2 CN), Ref +4 (+2 DX), and Will +4 (+2 WS)
> Armour Class: 14 (+2 DW, +2 WS)
>
> Skills: 1st level points: 24 (4 + 1 (+1 IN)) x 4 + 4 (Human Bonus) = 24
> 6 each following level (4 + 1 (+1 IN)) +1 (Human Bonus) = 6
>
> Class Skills:
> Balance (DX) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
> Climb (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
> Concentration (CN) +2 (+2 CN Bonus)
> Escape Artist (DX) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
> Hide (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
> Jump (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)

Get to 5 Ranks ASAP for the bonus to Tumble.

> Knowledge (Religion) (IN) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 IN Bonus)
> Listen (WS) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
> Move Silently (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
> Sense Motive (WS) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
> Spot (WS) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
> Swim (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
> Tumble (DX) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
>
> Cross-class Skills:
> Heal (WS) +2 (+2 WS Bonus)
> Ride (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
> Search (IN) +2 (+2 IN Bonus)
> Survival (WS) +2 (+2 WS Bonus)
> Use Rope (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
>
> Feats: 3 total at 1st level
> Improved Grapple: Do not provoke an AoO, +4 on Grapple checks.
> Improved Initiative: +4 on Initiative checks.
> Stunning Fist: Stun opponent with Unarmed Attack, DC 12 save vs. Fort (DC
> 10 + 1/2 your character level + WS Bonus). Usable 1/day per Monk level.

Most monks seem to pursue either a striking or grappling technique. By
choosing both, you may reduce expertise in either with respect to your other
skill choices.

>
>
> Equipment:
> Backpack
> Bed Roll
> Mess Kit
> Waterskin
> Wool Cap
> Sandals
> Two changes of clothes
> 1 Dagger (1d4 19-20/x2, 10 ft. RI. 1 lb. Piercing or slashing)
> 1 Quaterstaff (1d6/1d6 x2, Bludgeoning)
> 2 Kama (1d6 x2, Slashing, Trip Attacks)
> 1 Sling (1d4 x2, 50 ft. RI, Bludgeoning)
> Flint & Steel
> Rations (week)
> Grooming Kit
> Belt Pouch (7 gp)
>
> Description:
>
> Morgan is a solidly built 6’ tall human male. He has long, dark brown
> hair, often worn in a single braid. He has green eyes and a tanned
> complexion. His clothing is simple and plain, that befitting a Monk. His
> equipment is worn but well cared for.
>
> Personal History:
>
>
> Goals:
>
>
> Personality:
>
>
> Build Plan: Feat Choices and Ability Boosts.
>
> 1st Level: Feats (Improved Initiative, Improved Grapple, and Stunning
> Fist)
>
> 2nd Level: Feat (Combat Reflexes)
>
> 3rd Level: Feat (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Attack)
>
> 4th Level: , +1 DX
>
> 5th Level: N/A
>
> 6th Level: Feat (Weapon Finesse: Unarmed Attack)

Why? At this point, you are +2 ST, +2 DX.. What does this buy you? Also,
Weapon Finesse does not have to designate a weapon.

You also get a bonus feat at this level (Improved Trip or Improved Disarm).

>
> 7th Level: N/A
>
> 8th Level: N/A, +1 WS

This gives you odd numbers in both Dex and Wisdom. Concentrate on one or
the other to boost you AC; the two odds gives you nothing. (Alternately,
build the character initially with odd numbers and take each of these as
bumps to adj.)

>
> 9th Level: Feat (Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike)

At 9th level, you BAB is only +6. You need +8 BAB for Improved Critical
(the strength/dex bene don't cut it).

>
> 10th Level: N/A
>
> 11th Level: N/A
>
> 12th Level: Feat (Axiomatic Strike), +1 DX

On this build, you have to get to this point before your Weapon Finesse from
Level 6 kicks in to give you +1.

>
> 13th Level: N/A
>
> 14th Level: N/A
>
> 15th Level: Feat (Power Critical: Unarmed Attack)
>
> 16th Level: +1 WS

And now the character is retired from the campaign.




--
CaissaWas__SPAMHater__INTP@adelphia__ANTIV__.net without the block
August 14, 2005 10:59:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:1124063088.741223.290690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

>
> I'm not really familiar with Living Greyhawk, but I'm positive that I
> can come up with better feats for you to take. What sources are
> allowed?

It isn't that simple. Each feat is either Core (take it anytime), Limited
(you gotta do something to get it), NPC (only the bad guys get it) or
Restricted (Can't have it, ever). See the LGCS if you want more info:
http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGCS_v4-2.zip . Books include the
Completes and others, and are listed in the above doc.

David
--
CaissaWas__SPAMHater__INTP@adelphia__ANTIV__.net without the block
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
August 14, 2005 10:59:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:0oRLe.690$uO2.331@fed1read07...
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>> Tetsubo wrote:
>>
>>>I haven't added the flavor text in yet, but I'd like some opinions on
>>>this Living Greyhawk build. TIA
>>>
>>>Morgan Willowleaf
>>>
>>>Human Male, Monk, 1st Level, Lawful Good
>>>
>>>Str: 14 (6 points) +2
>>>Dex: 14 (6 points) +2
>>>Con: 14 (6 points) +2
>>>Int: 12 (4 points) +1
>>>Wis: 14 (6 points) +2
>>>Cha: 8 (0 points) -1
>>>28 Point Buy
>>
>>
>> Much better than your first suggestion. I'd raise STR to 16, though,
>> and drop CON to 12 and INT to 10.
>
> Not at 1st level. Morgan needs to stay alive, and without armor that
> means
> defence. DE-FENCE! Oh, and hit points. His foes are most likely to be
> single
> HD critters, so he doesn't need to do bucketloads of damage just yet.

In LG, he'll play three scenarios at first level. If those are regular
scenarios (not introductory scenarios) he'll play them at APL2. In the
current writing style for LG, he should expect that he will see EL4
encounters, with a sprinkling of EL3, and occasional EL5 or EL2. EL4
encounters are not generally 1HD creatures.

David


--
CaissaWas__SPAMHater__INTP@adelphia__ANTIV__.net without the block
August 14, 2005 10:59:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:1124068323.247908.16590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Some Guy wrote:
>> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>> > Tetsubo wrote:
>> >
>> >>I haven't added the flavor text in yet, but I'd like some opinions on
>> >>this Living Greyhawk build. TIA
>> >>
>> >>Morgan Willowleaf
>> >>
>> >>Human Male, Monk, 1st Level, Lawful Good
>> >>
>> >>Str: 14 (6 points) +2
>> >>Dex: 14 (6 points) +2
>> >>Con: 14 (6 points) +2
>> >>Int: 12 (4 points) +1
>> >>Wis: 14 (6 points) +2
>> >>Cha: 8 (0 points) -1
>> >>28 Point Buy
>> >
>> >
>> > Much better than your first suggestion. I'd raise STR to 16, though,
>> > and drop CON to 12 and INT to 10.
>>
>> Not at 1st level. Morgan needs to stay alive, and without armor that
>> means
>> defence. DE-FENCE! Oh, and hit points. His foes are most likely to be
>> single
>> HD critters, so he doesn't need to do bucketloads of damage just yet.
>
> 9 hit points as opposed to 10 isn't likely to be what kills him. I
> could just as well say that having one less of an attack bonus could
> kill him... if he hits an opponent, that opponent ain't hitting back.
> And STR is what helps him hit an opponent.

LG combats are at higher ELs that the typical DMG schedule, generally at
APL+2, where APL is the even number closest to the average of the character
levels (it's a bit more complicated, but not much). There is a lot of
min-maxing in the campaign, and the risk level that the scenarios are
written to assume that. Second level characters will find themselves in
situations where they are going against CR6 opponents. It isn't just a hit
point here, it's a hit point at each level, and a lower FORT save as well.
At higher levels, that FORT save will come into play with the 50hp rule.

My primary LG character is an archery based elven ranger with CON 10. I
just spent a sizeable portion of my treasure to date on a +2 Amulet of
Health. I spent my level 4 bump on CON (now 11, 13 with the amulet), and
will do so at level 8 as well...all this to fix a problem from creation. I
am never making another LG character with CON under 14 prior to racial mods.

Keep the CON at 14, give up the INT, and boost the STR.

David


--
CaissaWas__SPAMHater__INTP@adelphia__ANTIV__.net without the block
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 12:47:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David wrote:

>"Tetsubo" <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:p t2dnSCDBpFtUWLfRVn-pw@comcast.com...
>
>
>> I haven't added the flavor text in yet, but I'd like some opinions on
>>this Living Greyhawk build. TIA
>>
>>Morgan Willowleaf
>>
>>Human Male, Monk, 1st Level, Lawful Good
>>
>>Str: 14 (6 points) +2
>>Dex: 14 (6 points) +2
>>Con: 14 (6 points) +2
>>Int: 12 (4 points) +1
>>Wis: 14 (6 points) +2
>>Cha: 8 (0 points) -1
>>28 Point Buy
>>
>>Base Speed: 30
>>Languages: Common and ???
>>
>>
>
>What's your home region? That may influence your choice of bonus language.
>Consider Ancient Sueloise, Ancient Flan, or Old Oeridian to provide flavor
>and give you an extra chance to help in investigative mods (the first two in
>particular).
>
>
Bissel, New England.

>
>
>
>
>>HP: 10
>>Initiative: +6 (+2 DX, +4 Improved Initiative)
>>BAB: +0
>>BAB Melee: +2 (+2 ST)
>>BAB Missile: +2 (+2 DX)
>>Flurry of Blows: +0/+0 (+2/+2 ST)
>>Saves: Fort +4 (+2 CN), Ref +4 (+2 DX), and Will +4 (+2 WS)
>>Armour Class: 14 (+2 DW, +2 WS)
>>
>>Skills: 1st level points: 24 (4 + 1 (+1 IN)) x 4 + 4 (Human Bonus) = 24
>>6 each following level (4 + 1 (+1 IN)) +1 (Human Bonus) = 6
>>
>>Class Skills:
>>Balance (DX) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
>>Climb (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
>>Concentration (CN) +2 (+2 CN Bonus)
>>Escape Artist (DX) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
>>Hide (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
>>Jump (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
>>
>>
>
>Get to 5 Ranks ASAP for the bonus to Tumble.
>
>
>
>>Knowledge (Religion) (IN) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 IN Bonus)
>>Listen (WS) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
>>Move Silently (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
>>Sense Motive (WS) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
>>Spot (WS) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 WS Bonus)
>>Swim (ST) +4 (2 Ranks, +2 ST Bonus)
>>Tumble (DX) +6 (4 Ranks, +2 DX Bonus)
>>
>>Cross-class Skills:
>>Heal (WS) +2 (+2 WS Bonus)
>>Ride (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
>>Search (IN) +2 (+2 IN Bonus)
>>Survival (WS) +2 (+2 WS Bonus)
>>Use Rope (DX) +2 (+2 DX Bonus)
>>
>>Feats: 3 total at 1st level
>>Improved Grapple: Do not provoke an AoO, +4 on Grapple checks.
>>Improved Initiative: +4 on Initiative checks.
>>Stunning Fist: Stun opponent with Unarmed Attack, DC 12 save vs. Fort (DC
>>10 + 1/2 your character level + WS Bonus). Usable 1/day per Monk level.
>>
>>
>
>Most monks seem to pursue either a striking or grappling technique. By
>choosing both, you may reduce expertise in either with respect to your other
>skill choices.
>
>
>
>>Equipment:
>>Backpack
>>Bed Roll
>>Mess Kit
>>Waterskin
>>Wool Cap
>>Sandals
>>Two changes of clothes
>>1 Dagger (1d4 19-20/x2, 10 ft. RI. 1 lb. Piercing or slashing)
>>1 Quaterstaff (1d6/1d6 x2, Bludgeoning)
>>2 Kama (1d6 x2, Slashing, Trip Attacks)
>>1 Sling (1d4 x2, 50 ft. RI, Bludgeoning)
>>Flint & Steel
>>Rations (week)
>>Grooming Kit
>>Belt Pouch (7 gp)
>>
>>Description:
>>
>>Morgan is a solidly built 6’ tall human male. He has long, dark brown
>>hair, often worn in a single braid. He has green eyes and a tanned
>>complexion. His clothing is simple and plain, that befitting a Monk. His
>>equipment is worn but well cared for.
>>
>>Personal History:
>>
>>
>>Goals:
>>
>>
>>Personality:
>>
>>
>>Build Plan: Feat Choices and Ability Boosts.
>>
>>1st Level: Feats (Improved Initiative, Improved Grapple, and Stunning
>>Fist)
>>
>>2nd Level: Feat (Combat Reflexes)
>>
>>3rd Level: Feat (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Attack)
>>
>>4th Level: , +1 DX
>>
>>5th Level: N/A
>>
>>6th Level: Feat (Weapon Finesse: Unarmed Attack)
>>
>>
>
>Why? At this point, you are +2 ST, +2 DX.. What does this buy you? Also,
>Weapon Finesse does not have to designate a weapon.
>
>You also get a bonus feat at this level (Improved Trip or Improved Disarm).
>
>
>
>>7th Level: N/A
>>
>>8th Level: N/A, +1 WS
>>
>>
>
>This gives you odd numbers in both Dex and Wisdom. Concentrate on one or
>the other to boost you AC; the two odds gives you nothing. (Alternately,
>build the character initially with odd numbers and take each of these as
>bumps to adj.)
>
>
>
>>9th Level: Feat (Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike)
>>
>>
>
>At 9th level, you BAB is only +6. You need +8 BAB for Improved Critical
>(the strength/dex bene don't cut it).
>
>
>
>>10th Level: N/A
>>
>>11th Level: N/A
>>
>>12th Level: Feat (Axiomatic Strike), +1 DX
>>
>>
>
>On this build, you have to get to this point before your Weapon Finesse from
>Level 6 kicks in to give you +1.
>
>
>
>>13th Level: N/A
>>
>>14th Level: N/A
>>
>>15th Level: Feat (Power Critical: Unarmed Attack)
>>
>>16th Level: +1 WS
>>
>>
>
>And now the character is retired from the campaign.
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 5:32:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, David wrote:
>
> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:1124063088.741223.290690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> I'm not really familiar with Living Greyhawk, but I'm positive that I
>> can come up with better feats for you to take. What sources are
>> allowed?
>
> It isn't that simple. Each feat is either Core (take it anytime),

It's slightly more complex than that: there's PHB feats (take it 1st level
and up), Core (take it 3rd level and up, except for the regional feats in
the two Dragon magazine articles which you can (only) take at 1st level),
and then the other three categories (Limited, NPC, and Restricted).
Basically, build the character using PHB feats at 1st and 2nd level, then
it's (mostly) open slather from the Complete books from 3rd level.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm
August 15, 2005 5:32:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Gary Johnson" <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> wrote in message
news:p ine.LNX.4.61.0508151329430.7430@fox.uq.net.au...
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, David wrote:
>>
>> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>> news:1124063088.741223.290690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really familiar with Living Greyhawk, but I'm positive that I
>>> can come up with better feats for you to take. What sources are allowed?
>>
>> It isn't that simple. Each feat is either Core (take it anytime),
>
> It's slightly more complex than that: there's PHB feats (take it 1st level
> and up), Core (take it 3rd level and up, except for the regional feats in
> the two Dragon magazine articles which you can (only) take at 1st level),
> and then the other three categories (Limited, NPC, and Restricted).
> Basically, build the character using PHB feats at 1st and 2nd level, then
> it's (mostly) open slather from the Complete books from 3rd level.

Thanks for the clarification, Gary. You are, of course, correct about the
3rd level/Dragon bit.

David

--
CaissaWas__SPAMHater__INTP@adelphia__ANTIV__.net without the block
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 6:08:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> What's the death-rate like? CR6- includes trolls, and I wouldn't care to
> be playing a 2nd level meleeist in a game where trolls (or 3ed level
> ogre barbarians and 6th level orcs, for that matter) are on the menu.
> Heck, I wouldn't like to be a 2nd level character of any sort in a game
> where 6th level opponents are in play - a 6d6 fireball could do for the
> whole party if the players were unlucky.

IME, the death rate seems low. If it's a "tough" scenario, GMs often use
their discretion to minimise risk, particularly if you're playing up (such
as a 2nd level character playing at APL 4 because everyone else has a 5th
level character): there's no reason why the dangerous creature has to
target you instead of the (presumably more dangerous) higher level
characters. You also get warnings like "it's a tough scenario", "bring
your best game to the table", and "don't play up, play down". Our local LG
culture also emphasises the more tactical, boardgaming style of D&D play,
so people who play regularly tend to play combat-optimised character
builds, and there's social presure to confirm to that sort of build.

I've also seen GMs deliberately use poor tactics for smart creatures, such
as attacking the high AC opponent instead of changing targets, or choosing
to "play" with opponents instead of finishing them off. For example, there
was a minotaur with a greataxe who had dropped the two fighters and only
had the wizard and cleric to go. Rather than hit the wizard with the
greataxe and pretty much guarantee a TPK, it grabbed the wizard by his
throat, lifted him off the ground, and started choking him unconscious -
this gave the cleric the chance to wake up one fighter and stabilise the
other, and the party eventually managed to defeat the minotaur.

To give you some idea of LG character deaths I have seen, my primary
character (a bard) has died twice in 60 adventures.

* The first time he died from Con damage caused by smoke inhalation, after
running into a smoke-filled chamber deep beneath the cantonal council's
meeting hall and stomping out the lit fuses leading to the "barrels of
exposive alchemical powder" (wish we could get some of *that* as Adventure
access). That was APL 6 (IIRC), and that was okay - I got to die being
overtly heroic, plus I lingered long enough to stagger into the arms of
the one character who followed me down the smoke-filled tunnel and to say
some final words.

* The second time he died from standing too close to an empowered cone of
cold trap at APL 10 and failing a saving throw - 56hp character took 67pts
damage, insteadly dead. The cleric in the party raised him the next day.
I thought that was a pretty stupid death - it did nothing for me at a
story level, and the DM's gloating about the amount of damage rolled
didn't help my mood much (though to be fair, he stopped gloating once I
announced my character had died).

My wife's primary character (a monk) has died once in approximately 80
adventures (APL 6, ran up to engage the enemy spellcaster, enemy
spellcaster's 2nd level orc barbarian mook raged, critted with greataxe,
did approximately 50pts of damage, instantly dead). Her secondary
character (a fighter) hasn't died in approximately 20 adventures.

Hope this gives you some insights,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 6:09:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:30:45 -0700, "David" <caissaintp@adelphia.net>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> LG combats are at higher ELs that the typical DMG schedule, generally at
> APL+2, where APL is the even number closest to the average of the character
> levels (it's a bit more complicated, but not much). There is a lot of
> min-maxing in the campaign, and the risk level that the scenarios are
> written to assume that. Second level characters will find themselves in
> situations where they are going against CR6 opponents. It isn't just a hit
> point here, it's a hit point at each level, and a lower FORT save as well.
> At higher levels, that FORT save will come into play with the 50hp rule.

What's the death-rate like? CR6- includes trolls, and I wouldn't care
to be playing a 2nd level meleeist in a game where trolls (or 3ed
level ogre barbarians and 6th level orcs, for that matter) are on the
menu. Heck, I wouldn't like to be a 2nd level character of any sort in
a game where 6th level opponents are in play - a 6d6 fireball could do
for the whole party if the players were unlucky.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
August 15, 2005 6:09:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:r5uvf113beccc14sefc8rokqc3nnnkoo81@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:30:45 -0700, "David" <caissaintp@adelphia.net>
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> LG combats are at higher ELs that the typical DMG schedule, generally at
>> APL+2, where APL is the even number closest to the average of the
>> character
>> levels (it's a bit more complicated, but not much). There is a lot of
>> min-maxing in the campaign, and the risk level that the scenarios are
>> written to assume that. Second level characters will find themselves in
>> situations where they are going against CR6 opponents. It isn't just a
>> hit
>> point here, it's a hit point at each level, and a lower FORT save as
>> well.
>> At higher levels, that FORT save will come into play with the 50hp rule.
>
> What's the death-rate like? CR6- includes trolls, and I wouldn't care
> to be playing a 2nd level meleeist in a game where trolls (or 3ed
> level ogre barbarians and 6th level orcs, for that matter) are on the
> menu. Heck, I wouldn't like to be a 2nd level character of any sort in
> a game where 6th level opponents are in play - a 6d6 fireball could do
> for the whole party if the players were unlucky.

I don't know the numbers. I have run something like 25-30 adventures with
only one character death. I've played a similar number and have only been
in one party that has seen a death. I've also seen two situations that
should have been deaths, but weren't (DM pulled punches). So, call it
something like 1 character death in 12 mods (average party size of 5)..from
a PC perspective that's 1/60.

A couple of caveats:

A party of 2nd level characters won't generally encounter CR6 nasties, but
they can. LG uses tiered encounters. Based upon the average level of the
party (with a couple of modifiers), the adventure is run at a given risk
level, called the APL (average party level). In theory, the maximum EL is
APL+3. So, in order for a 2nd level character to encounter a CR6 monster,
they need to be playing at APL4. That happens when the other characters at
the table are high enough level to raise the average. So, if a Mnk2 is
playing at APL4, there are likely 5th and 6th level guys around.

LG is played with tables of 4-6 characters. ELs are calculated assuming 4
characters. The typical LG table is 5 or 6; 4 player tables are unusual,
maybe 1/8 or so of the time. However, if the table has 6 players, the APL is
incremented by 1.

There is a level of self selection w/respect to how much danger you are
willing to engage in. The tiered encounters are written at even
levels...APL2, APL4, etc. There is no APL3. If a table has an average
level of 3, they choose whether to play at APL2 or APL4. Most players have
more than one character, so there is a metagame aspect to ensure that the
table is relatively strong, particularly if playing up. No one wants to
play up with a minimum party.

Example: six players sit down to play, nominally at APL4. Each player
pulls out a preferred character. Let's say its a Ftr3, Clr3, Wiz3, Rog2,
Rgr2, Mnk3. The average is 2.7, rounding to 3. A sixth player adds one,
for an APL of 4. However, this is a weak APL4. Joe, playing the Rgr2, also
has a Bar4, so decides to bring that instead.

The one table where I killed a PC was a weak APL2 (Ftr1, Drd1/Rgr1, Clr2,
Ftr1). The Drd/Rgr died to a crit from a CR4 creature.

The one table where I saw a character killed was a weak APL4 (Pal3, Bar3,
Rgr3, Clr3, Rog3), which chose to play at APL4 instead of APL2. The Clr was
killed by a CR5 monster that surprised us. At APL2, the same critter was
CR2 or CR3.

Hope that helps.

David


--
CaissaWas__SPAMHater__INTP@adelphia__ANTIV__.net without the block
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 9:57:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:09:05 -0700, "David" <caissaintp@adelphia.net>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> A party of 2nd level characters won't generally encounter CR6 nasties, but
> they can. LG uses tiered encounters. Based upon the average level of the
> party (with a couple of modifiers), the adventure is run at a given risk
> level, called the APL (average party level). In theory, the maximum EL is
> APL+3. So, in order for a 2nd level character to encounter a CR6 monster,
> they need to be playing at APL4. That happens when the other characters at
> the table are high enough level to raise the average. So, if a Mnk2 is
> playing at APL4, there are likely 5th and 6th level guys around.

That still means you can have a 2nd level party run into a troll
(CR5). Now, this can happen in normal games too, of course.

> LG is played with tables of 4-6 characters. ELs are calculated assuming 4
> characters. The typical LG table is 5 or 6; 4 player tables are unusual,
> maybe 1/8 or so of the time. However, if the table has 6 players, the APL is
> incremented by 1.

That makes 5 players the ideal in terms of party strength vs monster
power.

I must admit I'm surprised you haven't seen more deaths. Either LG
players are very good, or the adventures are designed to help cut down
on PC deaths - at levels 4- PC deaths are easy to get just from a few
good rolls, and hard to stop.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 10:05:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:26:33 +1000, Gary Johnson
<zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Don't bother. IME, there's always at least one character in a LG party who
> can't sneak to save their life, and you do everything as a group. Some DMs
> start the encounter "block text" as soon as one character initiates the
> encounter, and you don't want to initiate the combat encounter with only
> one character, so you get into a cycle where you stay with the full plate
> "tanks" so they can help you with the combats.

IMO that's just plain bad GMing. For one thing, it shows a lack of
flexibility (so why aren't the players just playing a crpg?), and for
another it invalidates a huge chunk of several different character
classes.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 10:05:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:26:33 +1000, Gary Johnson
> <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> > Don't bother. IME, there's always at least one character in a LG party
> > who can't sneak to save their life, and you do everything as a group.
> > Some DMs start the encounter "block text" as soon as one character
> > initiates the encounter, and you don't want to initiate the combat
> > encounter with only one character, so you get into a cycle where you
> > stay with the full plate "tanks" so they can help you with the
> > combats.

> IMO that's just plain bad GMing. For one thing, it shows a lack of
> flexibility (so why aren't the players just playing a crpg?), and for
> another it invalidates a huge chunk of several different character
> classes.

I agree. Unfortunately, one of the risks of LG is that the GM is running
the game more because they're willing to do so than because they have the
right skills and experience to GM. When the GM is a volunteer (possibly a
last-minute volunteer at a convention or games day), you don't always get
the same game play experience as you would with a home group and a GM
dedicated to that role who had time to prepare in advance for the group
of characters about to play the adventure.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:15:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0508151340310.28954@fox.uq.net.au>,
Gary Johnson <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> wrote:

> I've also seen GMs deliberately use poor tactics for smart creatures, such
> as attacking the high AC opponent instead of changing targets, or choosing
> to "play" with opponents instead of finishing them off. For example, there
> was a minotaur with a greataxe who had dropped the two fighters and only
> had the wizard and cleric to go. Rather than hit the wizard with the
> greataxe and pretty much guarantee a TPK, it grabbed the wizard by his
> throat, lifted him off the ground, and started choking him unconscious -
> this gave the cleric the chance to wake up one fighter and stabilise the
> other, and the party eventually managed to defeat the minotaur.

Bleah. The "bag limit" school of DMing. Once the DM has bagged the
legal maximum number of PCs, the monster deflates into a little heap.

I don't know why they even bother using the DnD combat system in the
first place.

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 11:34:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kevin Lowe <me@private.net> wrote:
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0508151340310.28954@fox.uq.net.au>,
> Gary Johnson <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> wrote:
>
>> I've also seen GMs deliberately use poor tactics for smart creatures, such
>> as attacking the high AC opponent instead of changing targets, or choosing
>> to "play" with opponents instead of finishing them off. For example, there
>> was a minotaur with a greataxe who had dropped the two fighters and only
>> had the wizard and cleric to go. Rather than hit the wizard with the
>> greataxe and pretty much guarantee a TPK, it grabbed the wizard by his
>> throat, lifted him off the ground, and started choking him unconscious -
>> this gave the cleric the chance to wake up one fighter and stabilise the
>> other, and the party eventually managed to defeat the minotaur.
>
> Bleah. The "bag limit" school of DMing. Once the DM has bagged the
> legal maximum number of PCs, the monster deflates into a little heap.
>
> I don't know why they even bother using the DnD combat system in the
> first place.

Heh. I'm willing to do this if I made a mistake in judging how the
encounter would go. I really don't like accidental TPK. However, my
monsters, as a rule, fight nasty.

.. if you're facing off against kobolds or goblins, and they can
recognize him, they *will* focus fire on the wizard. At least until
they relize they aren't having any happiness there, they get overrun
by the fighters, or he goes down.

.. many monsters will happily take a spare moment to take one more shot
at a downed character... probably the last of their iterative attacks,
or a secondary attack, something with a penalty that might not be able
to affect the guy still standing.

.. highest level spells *first*, unless they have reason to think they'll
either need the spells later, or that a lower level spell will be
sufficient.

.... stuff like that. Fairly straightforward, easy to apply guidelines.
They're pretty much what they PCs do. This makes them much easier to
remember.

Not *all* creatures behave this way, but most of the intelligent ones
do.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 12:17:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kevin Lowe <me@private.net> wrote:

> Bleah. The "bag limit" school of DMing. Once the DM has bagged the
> legal maximum number of PCs, the monster deflates into a little heap.

Heh. :-)

From what I remember, the minotaur plus ally had an EL of at least APL +2
(probably more, considering the scenario seemed to give them an automatic
ambush), and the random dice rolls weren't favouring the players. In a
home game, the GM could have modified the encounter (and awarded less XP)
up front if they thought the group would struggle (fewer creatures, no
ambush), but that option isn't available in Living campaigns.

> I don't know why they even bother using the DnD combat system in the
> first place.

Probably because it's easier to get a group of D&D players together than
any other system.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:58:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Gary Johnson" <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> wrote in message
news:D dpfu3$uf2$1@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au...
> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:26:33 +1000, Gary Johnson
>> <zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> > Don't bother. IME, there's always at least one character in a LG party
>> > who can't sneak to save their life, and you do everything as a group.
>> > Some DMs start the encounter "block text" as soon as one character
>> > initiates the encounter, and you don't want to initiate the combat
>> > encounter with only one character, so you get into a cycle where you
>> > stay with the full plate "tanks" so they can help you with the
>> > combats.
>
>> IMO that's just plain bad GMing. For one thing, it shows a lack of
>> flexibility (so why aren't the players just playing a crpg?), and for
>> another it invalidates a huge chunk of several different character
>> classes.
>
> I agree. Unfortunately, one of the risks of LG is that the GM is running
> the game more because they're willing to do so than because they have the
> right skills and experience to GM. When the GM is a volunteer (possibly a
> last-minute volunteer at a convention or games day), you don't always get
> the same game play experience as you would with a home group and a GM
> dedicated to that role who had time to prepare in advance for the group
> of characters about to play the adventure.

Personally, I would rather sit home and play Guild Wars. I would never be
able to handle that level of GM incompetence.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 1:17:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:17:25 +0000 (UTC), Gary Johnson
<zzjohnsg@uqconnect.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> From what I remember, the minotaur plus ally had an EL of at least APL +2
> (probably more, considering the scenario seemed to give them an automatic
> ambush), and the random dice rolls weren't favouring the players. In a
> home game, the GM could have modified the encounter (and awarded less XP)
> up front if they thought the group would struggle (fewer creatures, no
> ambush), but that option isn't available in Living campaigns.

That suggerts poor mudule design (the party was too weak for the
encounter after having finally got to it), or the party was doing
poorly (and got more shot up than a skilled party would've). That
said, IMO, "auto ambush", or "auto about anything" is not terribly
good design - the party's perception monkeys should have a chance of
spotting something amis far enough out for the party to do some basic
prep, assuming the players have set up proper scouting, etc. This
rewards intelligent play and makes Spot/Listen good for something
other than avoid flat-footedness when a fight starts.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 7:29:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> Gary Johnson wrote:

>
> Bissel (sp?).
>
> Thank you for your advice.

People in Bissel tend to get swept under the carpet...
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 11:42:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:

> Tetsubo wrote:
>
>> Gary Johnson wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Bissel (sp?).
>>
>> Thank you for your advice.
>
>
> People in Bissel tend to get swept under the carpet...

I'm going to plead ignorance here... what do you mean by that comment?

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 4:35:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote:
] Some Guy wrote:
] > People in Bissel tend to get swept under the carpet...
]
] I'm going to plead ignorance here... what do you mean by that comment?

Company name of Bissel makes carpet cleaning machines.

JimP.
--
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/ August 21, 2005
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ July 31, 2005: Drive-In movie theatres
http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ poetry blog March 12, 2005
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:51:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> Some Guy wrote:
>
>> Tetsubo wrote:
>>
>>> Gary Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Bissel (sp?).
>>>
>>> Thank you for your advice.
>>
>>
>>
>> People in Bissel tend to get swept under the carpet...
>
>
> I'm going to plead ignorance here... what do you mean by that comment?
>

Bissel is the name of a company that makes carpet sweepers in the US:

http://www.bissell.com/

I was making a pun, but apparently I didn't leave it in the oven long
enough...
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 11:40:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy wrote:

> Tetsubo wrote:
>
>> Some Guy wrote:
>>
>>> Tetsubo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gary Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bissel (sp?).
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your advice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> People in Bissel tend to get swept under the carpet...
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm going to plead ignorance here... what do you mean by that
>> comment?
>>
>
> Bissel is the name of a company that makes carpet sweepers in the US:
>
> http://www.bissell.com/
>
> I was making a pun, but apparently I didn't leave it in the oven long
> enough...

Sorry about that. I've heard of he company. I just didn't make the
connection while reading a D&D newsgroup. :) 

If you have to explain a joke... it isn't a joke anymore... :) 

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
!