Bias in the Dell review

I think Dr. Tom puts it best "To Cry or not to Cry".
I think he was specifically talking to you lakedude. LOL

Hurts when the top guru of hardware indirectly says that a person would have to be loopy to buy a P4 over an Athlon. Never mind that most of the intelligent/competent box builders on this forum agree with him. You must of been sucked in by what AMDMELTDOWN, FUGGER, etc. have said.

Live with your mistake(you can cry if you want, LOL). Just think in a little while you can start using SSE II optimized software. Like in a year or two.

LOL x LOL = LOL^2

Did anyone else notice that the Dell system had an FD trinitron monitor when the DDR Micron did not? According to Dells sight that adds $100. And an option for a trinitron monitor was availible from Micron. Something about that extra $100 doesnt make seens. You could have added a nic or slower dvd and cdrw for that much. Plus I looked on Microns build your own site and the exact Micron Tom priced was 2699, not the 2650 something that he said. Me be thinking tom just showed his biased right there. Give the Dell a more expensive monitor, report the wrong price for the AMD system and leave off hardware because of more expensive monitor on Dell.

Lakedude, the whole point of the review was to review the systems AS THEY CAME WITHOUT MODIFICATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means no video card change, no memory change, nothing. They didn't equip the systems with ANYTHING. They got them completely how they were from the manufacturer.

They did not include FLASK for obvoius reasons. IT"S A DESKTOP COMPUTER NOT A WORKSTATION> THOSE COMPUTERS ARE NOT P4 VS TBIRD !!! ITS DELL VS GATEWAY, ETC.

toms article "To Cry or not to Cry" was written to address the babies that are in this forum. More specifically...YOU!

yeah and it also hurts when the same "top guru of hardware" addresses you guys in his last post as "ladies"

If you come into this forum and ask questions then you are not an "intelligent/compentent" box builder as you alude to.

I never flamed anyone who just brought an Amd chip/system, all I do is inform ppl about some of the reasons they are paying so little money.

everyone here has made mistakes, like buying a 286,386,486,k-6,softram,etc.(if you don't know these, then shut up)

I know a bunch of ppl that slag rambus and when I come over I tell them "hey you know that n64 has rambus in it" they don't believe me!

heck you probably know someone(personally) who's using rambus right now!

and these same ppl are runing their athlons with windoze, oh, for the love of god pls, "...and you tell me you are not supporting satan? then why not run linux you bastard! why drop one satan and use another...hypocrite!"

Also, I doubt that SSEII will take that long, after all don't you want an Amd's SSEII compatable chip that can utilize those enhancements? well I guess not, BUT AMD WANTS IT!!! so shut the F up!

I've should've made myself clearer, I was refering to the fact that almost everyone has brought something in past 10 yrs that now they laugh at, that's all.

Why don't you ask Fredi to add another forum called "AMDMeltdown throws out his frustration"?

I really think that computer sellers like Dell, Gateway and so on usually try to sell senseless systems to people who don't know a lot about computers.

It doesn't just happen with big manufacturers, in every single computer shop in my town, when you have a look at their catalogues, the first thing you see is a product advertised with "XXXX Mhz!!!!!", and on the last page you see a slower product which is a lot more balanced.

You can choose many configurations, but the seller tries to sell you the most unbalanced one so that later you have to spend more money on the system.

I think that the stuff about simulated computers is some kind of a joke.

>> usually try to sell senseless systems

once again, though we may all be elitist snobs, we should get our noses out of the gutter occasionally... I know its cool and hip to hate big companies, but seriously, do you really believe all you're saying? I've been switching between clones, high-end custom built, and major-manufacturer brands on and off since my first 286... all three kinds of computers have their good sides - as well as bad.
I've had an IBM Aptiva for three years -- it was an amazing computer. Upgradable as hell, and I still haven't seen a better case design. I added RAM, HDD, CD Burner, TV card,Network card, all other kinds of things I don't even remember over the years
So don't tell me that brand-name computers are worthless or not upgradable. Just as with custom built, you get what you pay for and what you reseach for.
Dell has some crappy systems, but they have some AWESOME systems, just like most other manufacturers. I don't like Compaq myself, simply because they've had proprietary designs in the past I am still not forgiving them. I also dislike their slimline, over-designed cases. Nevertheless, I'm writing this at work and it is on a Compaq Deskpro with WinNT. Wouldn't use it at home or for gaming, but it is a damn fine, reliable, useful machine

and as far as selling to unknowledgable people, I will NEVER ever recommend a custom built computer to a newbie.
Dell machine, however good or bad, will work out of the box; will have support; will have warranty; will have manuals; won't have conflicts; will have nice colour diagrams on how to set up cables ...etc.
With custom built:
the newbie doesn't know what s/he wants, nor what is good for him, now what is worth the money. It just opens up for exploitation on huge scale -- I've seen more than one newbie ripped off to the bone by a custom made 'computer'. What happens warranty time, or support time? Think you can call majority of clone-shops when you can't connect to AOL or whatever? Think again...

And if you think any newbie can design and build their own system, you're just nuts
first of all, majority of them couldn't care less. They don't WANT to spend time researching, messing around, building. Second, many of them are bound to screw up. And those people that came to THG and post "I've built my first system and it was easy" -- I'm not at all talking about you. I'm talking about majority of people who consider building their own computer as much as they consider buying their own TV, that is not at all. They want to go to shop and buy a computer just like they go to shop to buy a TV. That's it... and for better or for worse, last few years *those* people have been the majority of computer-buyers.

newbies are by far better off buying a brand-name, problem and care free system, then mucking around themselves.

Melt down! Dude, you really need to calm down. It's not safe getting that excited. <font color=yellow>You could wet yourself</font color=yellow>. My suggestion to you is take your 250mg of desipramine(4 out 5 interns recommend it) and watch the funny colors on the screen.

All I can say is that the truth hurts. It is most evident in your last post. The P4 is overpriced, underperforming, mated to super expensive memory and it still can't beat an Athlon system that is cheaper.

I still think that they try to sell senseless system because it is easier to sell systems with lots of Mhz and many newbies don't know what the graphics card is for.

Another problem with those brand systems is that if they are under warranty you cannot even only the box, and some resellers tell customers that even once the warranty has expired, the only way where they can repair the computer is in their shop because of compatibility problems.

The first computer that my parents bought, the mighty Inves BS486, which was nothing more than a 486 SX @ 25 Mhz with 4 mb of RAM, a 83 mb HD and a 512 kb graphics card, had some problems with the graphics card. Just after the warranty expired, funny things began showing on the screen, and we took it to the shop and they charged us about 200 $ for the installation of a new identical graphics card. A year later, the computer had the same problems with the graphics card, and we bought a 1mb Trident for 40 $ in another shop.

Every single person which is trying to buy a new computer knows somebody with knowlegde abouth computers which usually will be pleased to help giving advice.

This summer, a friend of mine wanted to get a new computer to replace his 8086...

He had assisted to some courses to acquire some knowledge about computers, and when he finished them he was offered by the shop which organised the courses a brand new computer for 1000 $. It was a 733 Mhz P!!! with 64 mb of PC100 RAM, a no-brand motherboard, and a 8 mb no-brand "AGP card", an Ultra-DMA 30 gb hard disk, a no-brand CDROM drive, and a "Sound Blaster".

He asked me if I thought that was a good system and I couldn't stop laughing. He ended up buying the same man for the same money a computer with a 700 Mhz T-Bird, an Epox mobo, 128 mb of PC133 RAM, a brand (I don't remember which) CD-ROM drive, a Sound Blaster 128 PCI, a 16mb TNT2 card (not a Vanta) and a Fujitsu 30 gb Ultra-DMA 66 HD. Please note he is not a hardcore gamer.

Don't you think that many shops would do the same?

>> that if they are under warranty you cannot even open the box

if you'll excuse me, that's bull
Again, I upgraded my IBm out the wazoo, and I know Dell condones upgrading of their computers. Yes, Compaq (and maybe others) had lousy proprietary designs years ago, not anymore really. Yes, some of them aren't upgradable very much (the desktop slimline models), but they do offer some big-ass cases too, if that's whay you want

from what I understand, it was a small clone-shop dealer that sold a over-valued system to your friend, not a name-brand. Therefore, you're proving my point. Even if I misunderstood, we all know I'm sure enough cases where that happened.
As to everybody knowing somebody who can give them advice, that works both ways, sometimes its a good advice, most times its horrible.
And the worst thing is when a newbie asks a *real* expert with no realization of newbie-ness. The expert will make a configuration that *he* would like, leaving newbie with a machine that is perfect by our standards, but that needs too many tweaks, too many patches, too many worries for newbie's taste -- he doesn't want to mess around with Via 4in1, Asus BIOS updates, and all the things we revel in but a newbie would hate and which pose an inherent danger. So the expert would be doing a mis-service to the newbie, not to mention that the expert would now be called (instead of friendly Dell/IBM/HP CSR) to fix every damn little problem (like when your friend insists he didn't touch a thing, and later you discover the password changed itself accidentally to Pamela_anderson etc)

If you're a newbie, get a good brand-name machine that works, learn on it while you still have warranty, and build your *second* machine from scratch or have it custom built, if it then suits your fancy. But jumping in the first time around has left too many people I know unsatisfied and upset at the whole computer industry needlessly.

I think there'll always be a place for Dell, IBM, HP and other high-quality, decent brand-name manufacturers. And I hope there'll also always be a place for us who like to tweak our computer, get involved in any aspect and generally mess with stuff. We just mustn't forget that everything is relative and that something that brings US gushes of joy is a boring geeky bother to others.

Well, see I was with the Sinclaire Spectrum crowd, so technically speaking, I should post some snipy remarks here about C64's inferiority... truth is though, C64 was a better computer, and I sure wished I had it instead of my spectrum... have you tried playin games on RUBBER keys, the ones you never know whether you pressed it or not?

still, the best computer of all times has gotta be the Amiga 500... that thing was so way, way ahead of its time it is not even funny... while I had my 286 with hercules card (black or white, not 16 shades of grey), keyboard only, pc speaker, my friend had A500 he got for third of money, with 32768 colours, mouse, joysticks, digitized sound, and he could play on TV... those were the times!

Hadn't thought bout that.

But I like messing with my friend's computers...

The Amiga was so ahead of his time...I'm still using one right now!

Actually, a 1993 model. With some improvement, I have to admit!

I had a C-64 and even a VIC-20 before. 3.5K of RAM and we were
able to do something fun...but now, Can we really say that computing
is fun????


Pat

Better say nothing, and let the other thinks you're an idiot,
than open your mouth and prove it!

If you're tlaking about me (offering was going on, i truly forget who) than you stopped responding (I never got any emails so i said forget it). IT if wasn't you then this post is directed to whoever it was.

Hey numbnuts. Slightly less than a year ago, TNT2 Ultra was THE [-peep-]. That was the best you could get. Now, everyone in this site seems to think if someone owns a damn GeForce 2 MX that they are highly sickened individuals. In that same amount of time you can easily count on two hands the number of games that have been released that actually look and play BETTER with a better video board than a TNT2 Ultra....at least games worth playing..........so why is it such a big deal for a non-gamer to buy a P4 without a GeForce 2 DDR 64? Is the photograph you scan from your Canon USB Scanner going to look any better on that GeForce 2 DDR 64? NO. Is Quake 2 going to play any better? NO. Is Unreal? NO. Is www.windowsupdate.com going to have better color? NO. Is Office 2000 going to run any faster, look any better, etc. HELL NO. Not everyone plays video games, folks. That doesn't mean they shouldn't buy a better PC. If that GeForce 2 DDR isn't needed, why the hell should someone add an addition $200 + to the cost of a PC from Dell or any other OEM? Dell will sell you the DDR 64 all day long if you ORDER THE DAMNED THING. Tom didn't order it. Hmmm. I wonder why it wasn't in the computer?

I was shocked by the low quality of the review. I hope that Thomas feels better after spewing out his bile. The initial focus on Dell's questionable marketing logic of placing the ad for gamers using such a poor video card to get such a low price was fine. To run simulations (as in "Remember boys, you control the action." ) that could not reflect the fine tuning done by Dell, Gateway, or Micron in system intergration shows a bias. When comparing the components of the selected system, the failure to give Dell credit when Dell had listed a good or better item such as the monitor shows bias. This is not what I expected after reading / using Tom's Hardware Guide in buying decisions.

What I expected was Thomas reflections about how US based marketing types fail to understand the German game market or even mocking of Dell for getting a good basic system together, then crippling the system to meet a magic market price. What I got was spewing bile, not showen even in Thomas's personal, but rightous, war against RDRAM. (Thanks to Thomas I refused RDRAM and waited on PC133 SDRAM for my last purchase.)

Thomas has biases. I noticed that he howls when Intel takes action to prevent overclocking. Another, self-assemby is the only way to get what you want in performance. But, not everyone goal is max performance and not even every reader of THG would agree on what max performace is. What is max performace for a hardcore gamer and a small business are different.

Dell, Gateway, IBM, etc. exist because of a marketing need, selling to business. Selling to the individual is at best a secondary market for them. The majority of those individuals need all the hand holding supplied by Dell, Gateway, IBM, etc. The biggest tech task the majority of individuals of new computer owners are ready for is plugging the wires into the correct socket and Dell, Gateway, IBM, etc sell large numbers of computers because they know how to reduce starting a computer to simple steps. Smart Computer sellers know that after the first computer, the consumers should want more control about what goes into the second computer. Thus, different models for different needs. And COST is a major factor in individual purchases. I may want the fastest video game card, but what I can afford makes the final decision.

Personal note:
Of course, I have a pro-Dell bias as I have owned 4 Dell systems, even if the last one, Dell 4100 was so loud that I had to get rid of it. But having built two systems trying for that personal ultimate machine, used a local shop to build a mid-range machine for immediate delivery to house-bound caregiver (pc-newbie), brought one of the early Gateway's 386's when Gateway still was in the family barn, and bought systems from Micron PC and Insight -- I have spent over US$60,000 in 14 years playing with PC's and experienced different level of satisfaction with the PCs. How / where I got the PC is a non-issue for me. What I did and the easy of what I can do with the PC determines when I need a new system (about every 2 years) Is Dell perfect, far from it. Tech support sucks. After making me spends hours repeating my troubleshooting, tech support agreed that the hard drive as indeed dead, then they refused to replace the harddrive under warranty because I had made it the secondary drive. (I am using a SCSI 10,000 rpm HD as the primary that Dell did not offer when I brought the system.) The 2000 July, August D4100 production run have a fan louder that the first SCSI HD I bought in 1987 (Image any fighter using afterburners on take off for the sound level) and Tech support denied the noise made by the fan was loud. So that system, like any system I do not use, was given away to a computer newbie. And tech support takes care of the them since I try to include the tech support in the transfer. Dell is great about allowing transfers and continueing the tech support.

Holy dog crap, I just now realized that since Tom's used simulated systems they didn't even get a good look at the case that shipped with the Dell. It is a great case! One button and the side comes off, another and the front is in your hand. The PS is hinged and with the pull of one lever it is out of your way. A brace runs down the middle and has a spring loaded support for the AGP card. The thermal solution is nothing short of awesome! Instead of a big old fan buzzing around on the CPU, only the heatsink is mounted on the CPU. A huge fan is mounted on the chassis and a duct channels cooling air to the heatsink. Besides the fact that having no fan on the CPU reduces mechanical stress/vibration on the (fragile) CPU, the duct ensures that no wires/cables can get into the fan and stop it. Also the chassis mounting allows for a much, much bigger fan than could ever be put directly on a CPU. Since the fan is so big it can turn slower and run quieter.

Tom you know I love you but your system review sucks!

PS. I am a very honest person and if I hated the new Dell I would say so but I love it! ... OK I hate the way the software is setup to funnel you into DellNet/MSN but all that is going BYE BYE tonight (format C

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by lakedude on 02/02/01 09:31 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

Griz I believe/hope you are kidding. Maybe you all do not already know this but I work 2 jobs, both jobs are tech jobs and I wish every computer I had to work on used cases like the ones Dell ships. None of the computers I work on has the wonderful screwless case design of the Dell. It seem like I spend more time on the job removing and installing unnessary screws than getting any work done. I'm sure many other folks make good cases too but no one I work for has bought any.