Is technology to blame for the London riots

[Archean]

Did social media and mobile telecommunications fuel this weekend's violence in London? A number of politicians, media commentators and members of the police force have suggested that Twitter and BlackBerry Messenger, in particular, had a role to play.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14442203

News bits aside, I think it would be great to hear from someone who actually lives in some of the affected areas.

 

[das_stig]

Nope, just a bunch of criminals !!

 

[Archean]

Oh we got a stig amongst ourselves at THF.

Some say that you don't know what is BBM, is that right?

 

[MysticMiner]

just so long as they don't blame the teleportation booth.

 

[blackhawk1928]

No, socialism is to blame...people think they are entitled to everything, and then when money runs out...all goes to hell.

 

[Archean]

Just like in capitalism where the 'privileged' can do whatever and pretty much get away with it. Any system is perfect only to the extent which the people who live in it are. Secondly un-checked capitalism is probably worst than any other system around. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, approximately 43.6 million (14.3%) Americans (i.e. about 1 in 7) were living in absolute poverty in 2009, up from 39.8 million (13.2%) in 2008. Now do you think this rate would have gone down in 2011? I would say don't bet on that.

By the way poverty rate in UK too is roughly in the same range. To top this all, US was ranked 17th out of 22 developed countries by UN in 2007-08 report, which Sweden ranked # 1 (due to having lowest poverty rate).

Slightly irrelevant but to add a little dose of reality about where imperial capitalism stands:
Arno J Mayer (is emeritus professor of history at Princeton University) noted in "A Matter of Empire":

"America is not a republic. It is an empire. To be sure, an empire in a relatively early stage of decline—precisely because it is overextended. And while empire and republic never live happily together, this is all the more the case during an imperial sunset. In Washington politics and government are less and less democratic and more and more dysfunctional and corrupt."

"The United States no longer has the means of its imperial ambitions and its addiction to overseas interventions. Of course, Washington still appears to have plenty of military wherewithal."

 

[RetiredChief]

Wow, I'm guessing you lean SLIGHTLY to the left.

(1) You are correct on High poverty level - would help if they INFORCED immigration laws, and were a little stricter on who is allowed to immigrate. NOTE, Is this not also a problem in UK/Europe??
(2) Don’t think I'm considered "Privileged" and certainly not rich. But, I sure disagree with paying for Individuals that will NOT educate themselves, and NOT work, and feel the Government (OPPS I MEAN US "rich" folks) OWE’s them a living.
(3) Your Professor may be correct – but IF he is, it is because the left is forcing the US in the direct of socialism. OPPS he forgot to include rational why this was occurring. Can not blame the “ELITE” educators who push an agenda.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

This is bunk
History shows many times The US simply stayed to itself
Immigration is alot higher in the US, and is the main contributor for these numbers as chief said
The UN? Seriously?
Look whos headed their security councils
Look whos been the largest backer of global warming
No one watches them
Theyve somehow gotten governments to give them money, no watchdogs
So called "pure" democracy with loons heading security etc

Id argue that the US has been so successful that signs of imperialism are seen from a weaker POV, and US citizens dont recognize such behavior, and certainly have no designs of such ideas
We reluctantly go to war in our mindset, unless someones messing with us and caused great harm, see the barracks bombings etc
No, unless youre an open minded American, no one can claim such things

 

[Reynod]

Technology is to blame for how it escalated but the root cause is disenfranchised youth ... youth unemployment is very high there ... multiculturalism doesn't seem to be working very well there ... and the policie are too restrained.

They should have used CS gas and water cannon right from the start ... and rubber bullets.

You can't just arm bobbies with a baton and a shield when the opposition have molotovs, and god knows what else.

Technology allowed it to get out of hand.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

You dont bring a knife to a gun fight
Just because many were in it for the fun, theyre still breaking the law
Hit em hard, but first timers get a slight reprieve
When confronting a mindset, and a tool to advance that mindset, the tool isnt the problem

As they say in the US, guns dont kill people, people do

 

[Reynod]

No ... we discussed this before ... rednecks with guns kill people.

Water cannons and CS gas makes people want to go home ... that is all that was really needed.

No need to unleash the dogs of war JD.

Keep your powder dry ...

 

[RetiredChief]

Not a "Redneck" as Born and raise up North.
But have a feeling that you would have a hard time backing that up that numbers would be higher when compared to other groupings.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

2 points
If you show it wont be tolerated, and sufficient force is used, I agree
But, it does nothing to solve the problem, which isnt communicaion, its mindset
Theyll go home, while retaining their mindset, no solution

You cant make people do what you want, or think is right way of thinking
You cant encourage them either
You cant educate them either, at least out of this
You cant make resentments go away

When Reginald Denny was being beat near death, by youth who simply pulled him from a truck because of skin color, all it took was others of the same color to act, confront those attackers of their shame, remind them of who they were, so theyd get a glimpse of themselves
It wasnt a government
It wasnt technology
It wasnt force
It made them look in the mirror

 

[Gulli]

Wow, I'm guessing you lean SLIGHTLY to the left.

(1) You are correct on High poverty level - would help if they INFORCED immigration laws, and were a little stricter on who is allowed to immigrate. NOTE, Is this not also a problem in UK/Europe??
(2) Don’t think I'm considered "Privileged" and certainly not rich. But, I sure disagree with paying for Individuals that will NOT educate themselves, and NOT work, and feel the Government (OPPS I MEAN US "rich" folks) OWE’s them a living.
(3) Your Professor may be correct – but IF he is, it is because the left is forcing the US in the direct of socialism. OPPS he forgot to include rational why this was occurring. Can not blame the “ELITE” educators who push an agenda.

I'm guessing you're over 40.

Let's compare 1980 and 2011:

1) The cost of higher education has risen by 900% (is now ten times higher).
2) The cost of living has risen by 250% (is now 3.5 times higher).
3) The cost of health insurance has risen more than 300% (is more then four times higher, this is a conservative estimate however, the real figure is likely higher).
4) The top 1% richest of America saw their income skyrocket (the numbers are insane, 2000% increases are not unheard of for the way way upper percentiles).

In contrast:

5) Minimum wage has risen by 130% (is now 2.3 times higher).
6) Median wage (for men) has risen by 140% (is now 2.4 times higher), and that's with longer working hours (so the hourly wage increase is smaller than 140%).

Obviously the system is being cheated: people have to work much harder for the same things nowadays, everyone, except the very rich. The rich who are putting money into the politicians' pockets are laughing their asses off while the little people (such as yourself) blame each other.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

40 hr work week, then and now
Wheres the women? They gain too much for your "transition?"

Tell me why ed. costs have risen so high, whats the profs salaries?
Theres alot more women in the workplace as well, back then many households were 1 income only
Health insurance has increased as well as the welfare class usage

Oh, as for the rich?
How bout taking down the rich government heads first?
They are responsible after all, right?

 

[Archean]

UN uses Human Development Index (HDI) and it is a reasonable indicator of ground realities, by denying a reality one can't make it go away right?

Do you really believe in non-sense that Ban Ki Moon and his office is really in-charge? I don't think so. UNSC is controlled by the five veto wielding powers (incidentally that include US), this means nothing can be done unless all these powers agree to do something, and usually they do it once they see there are benefits in something for them.

I am not sure about dynamics of global warming as the data is too fluid, and it will take many more years to come up with something concrete. Having said that, this issue has been muddied by both leftists and rightists for their own reasons, which can include helping out their corporate masters who usually finance their political ambitions.

I don't know if Mr. Arno is leftist or rightist, neither I see things in such way, things must be approached objectively if you want to grasp the underlying issues. You appear to think that Reaganomics is the answer to every problem which it isn't. We can take the example of China in this regard, China has been the biggest investment hub for last many decades, even in this difficult economic conditions its economy continues to power ahead, why? From an outsiders perspective, I would say because they have rightfully regulated the markets, keep an eye on them, manage inflow of investment and decide areas where it need to go according to their needs, not what the investor wants. So in a nutshell a mix of free market + balanced checks seems to be working for them in a lot better way than the absolutely un-checked free market economy (read plutonomy) we are trying to create here.

Also as humans we are equals but we may differ according to learning capacity and ability to be creative to improve not only quality of life but overall positive contribution to society. I fully agree with the notion that those who don't strive to improve themselves (either education wise, or work hard) don't deserve our sympathies, but IMO their numbers are in relatively lower %age.

By denying existence of imperialist objectives in disguise of 'suitable' excuses according to a given situation, doesn't mean it isn't there. For example, look at Libya, the whole farce is being created to 'smash and grab' oil, I have no idea what the rebels promised to the involved NATO countries, but I do know that they promised French that once that lunatic Qadafi is out they will be given 35% share of the oil industry. Most of the corporate media won't report it, but try searching for Libyan rebel letter for French promising this same thing. We went to Iraq for same reasons after fabricating false nukes case.

I think Barach O'Hoover + Tea/Republicans don't have the ability to grasp the seriousness of the problems this country is facing; they are simply point scoring by appearing to be trying to fix the real issues face by the economy. There is another logic behind Arno's argument, US has been simply printing $$$ expecting that dollar will be in demand for ever by others, right now China has 3191 billion $, Japan 1138 billion $, Russia 531 billion $, Saudi Arbia 497 billion $, Taiwan 400 billion $, reserves. But as dollar weakens these countries are bound to look elsewhere, that is one reason BRICS countries recently decided to ditch dollar and do business in their local currencies.

I remember IMF started studying possible impact of US$ collapse, which seems to be inevitable if things keep going the way they are; and they came up with "Special Drawing Rights", SDR for short, which will be for transition period before they come up with some sort of alternative currency.

I didn’t wanted to write such a long article but frankly I am not interested closing my eyes and thinking everything either a) is ok, or b) will be alright. I don’t believe democrats or teapublicans or republicans or neocons will solve any issues, for that they will have to abandon Reaganomics and adopt to real economics.

When people in the street stop taking interest in the national issues and rise up to do something about it, that is a sign that the decay has started.

 

[Gulli]

40 hr work week, then and now
Wheres the women? They gain too much for your "transition?"

Tell me why ed. costs have risen so high, whats the profs salaries?
Theres alot more women in the workplace as well, back then many households were 1 income only
Health insurance has increased as well as the welfare class usage

Oh, as for the rich?
How bout taking down the rich government heads first?
They are responsible after all, right?

40hr workweek? In theory yes, in practice, no. I left the women out because, as you point out, a comparison between their incomes in 1980 and now is unfair, and by extension so are comparisons between the average (men and women) and the household income. Looking at household incomes would only support my statement that more hours have to be worked for the same spending power.

This is not a blame game, this is about identifying the underlying causes and then doing something about it.

 

[RetiredChief]

@ Gulli's comments

Two points are very valid.
(1) You didn’t need to guess age, it's under my More Information – 69.
(2) You reference to the 1% - Yes and here is where I disagree with fellow conservatives – They are way overpaid, But this also applies to athletic professional, actors and actresses, politicians' and many teachers. Reason I include teachers is that they fail to mention that they are generally in the bottom 20% of college entrees and the Very power performance in educating the young. More concerned about political correctness than REAL knowledge. PS there are some excellent teachers, but it has become the exception rather than the norm.
(3) “Cost of higher education”, blame Unions and the “throwing money at to correct the problems with the education system instead of FIXing it. But the problem here is that the cost is not the problem, the problem is the graduates (and drop-out) from the Lousy “FREE” education. These individuals do NOT have the educational level to get into higher education even if it was FREE – O some do get in using grants which is then a drag on the whole class as the level of education comes down to the least common denominator. These “HS graduates and drop-outs are where the majority of the “rioter” are from and THEY could care less about improving themselves, just wwant more handouts!.
(4) Yes, medical cost have risen, someone has to pay for the “rioters”, illegal immigrants, and High school dropout’s medical costs.
(5) While the “cost of living” has risen, did you factor in the wage increase for the middle class (ie low skilled union workers and entry level teachers)? It’s a real same that this increase in cost of living has resulted in welfare driving around in better cars that the lower middle class (one of my pet peeves).

Added: Jay's comment on women in the work force. Starting back in the 60's. Two groups - (1) Min wage group, typically married to min wage spouse (My mother/father were in this group and (2) ladies that wanted to get out of the house and thoes that liked the independence of a career. It is this 2nd group that lead to becoming a Must for middle income group. The cost of goods and services is based a lot on the middle income, increase household income and prices go up.

 

[Gulli]

@ Gulli's comments

Two points are very valid.
(1) You didn’t need to guess age, it's under my More Information – 69.
(2) You reference to the 1% - Yes and here is where I disagree with fellow conservatives – They are way overpaid, But this also applies to athletic professional, actors and actresses, politicians' and many teachers. Reason I include teachers is that they fail to mention that they are generally in the bottom 20% of college entrees and the Very power performance in educating the young. More concerned about political correctness than REAL knowledge. PS there are some excellent teachers, but it has become the exception rather than the norm.
(3) “Cost of higher education”, blame Unions and the “throwing money at to correct the problems with the education system instead of FIXing it. But the problem here is that the cost is not the problem, the problem is the graduates (and drop-out) from the Lousy “FREE” education. These individuals do NOT have the educational level to get into higher education even if it was FREE – O some do get in using grants which is then a drag on the whole class as the level of education comes down to the least common denominator. These “HS graduates and drop-outs are where the majority of the “rioter” are from and THEY could care less about improving themselves, just wwant more handouts!.
(4) Yes, medical cost have risen, someone has to pay for the “rioters”, illegal immigrants, and High school dropout’s medical costs.
(5) While the “cost of living” has risen, did you factor in the wage increase for the middle class (ie low skilled union workers and entry level teachers)? It’s a real same that this increase in cost of living has resulted in welfare driving around in better cars that the lower middle class (one of my pet peeves).

The top 1% include actors and athletes. Yes, I factored in wages (points 5 and 6). Being on welfare doesn't get you more money than a job, being on welfare while dealing drugs does. Again this is not a blame game: to people who have to pay bills it doesn't matter why the bills are higher, just that the bills are higher. The lower and middle class are not lazy, they work harder than they did 30 years ago. It's also not true that wealth has become scarce and everyone just has to share the pain, because the rich only got richer. My conclusion would be that people are getting screwed. Real problems have to be solved.

 

[Archean]

+1 Gulli
When 1% of the population have claim on roughly 57% of GDP, whereas the 71% of GDP is driven by consumption of the middle/lower middle class population, there is something very seriously wrong with the system.

Also US is the only developed country where income inequality has been steadily increasing since 1970.

 

[Gulli]

+1 Gulli
When 1% of the population have claim on roughly 57% of GDP, whereas the 71% of GDP is driven by consumption of the middle/lower middle class population, there is something very seriously wrong with the system.

Also US is the only developed country where income inequality has been steadily increasing since 1970.

Not to mention the middle/lower class population does 99,99% of the work. I'm glad RetiredChief acknowledges that the rich are way overpaid. Way, way, way, way overpaid: the 400 richest Americans own more wealth than the poorer half of the American population. Those who say people should just work and stfu want to convince people the 400 richest Americans work 375000 times harder than the poorer half of the population... incredible, what's even more incredible is how succesful they're at it.

 

[blackhawk1928]

^Are you saying we should pass laws limiting to how much the Rich earn? Or should we tax the rich 99% and give all of it the poor?

Whats your take on that Gulli?

 

[Gulli]

^Are you saying we should pass laws limiting to how much the Rich earn? Or should we tax the rich 99% and give all of it the poor?

Whats your take on that Gulli?

Just that they be taxed enough to ensure everyone who busts his/her ass 40 hours a week can have healthcare without having to file for bankrupcy when he/she gets sick. And that every child who gets nice grades in high school can go to college without having to enter the scholarship lottery and without ending up in a ton of debt. The rich live off the work of the rest, are protected by them, reap huge profits off them and should thus be concerned about their well being, since many refuse to do so on a voluntary basis it seems a healthy amount of concern for their fellow human beings (their golden geese) has to be beaten into them by the IRS. Don't worry, the rich will still make obscene profits after this, they'll barely notice the difference, but a lot of poor people will see their lives transform. It's a golden deal for the rich: the poor won't chop their heads off and they'll still get to make way more money than any job is really worth (nobody works hard enough to "earn" $10 million a year, so when society lets you legally keep $5 million of it you should stfu and count your blessings, well that's just how I see it).

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Not to mention the middle/lower class population does 99,99% of the work. I'm glad RetiredChief acknowledges that the rich are way overpaid. Way, way, way, way overpaid: the 400 richest Americans own more wealth than the poorer half of the American population. Those who say people should just work and stfu want to convince people the 400 richest Americans work 375000 times harder than the poorer half of the population... incredible, what's even more incredible is how succesful they're at it.

I like the former? Japanese system, where the top man couldnt earn 7x more than the lowest paid
That in no way effects the already wealthy.
One has to understand, for decades the US system has worked
Everyone else played catch up
The wealthy are allowed tax incentives to invest, if those investments are kept within country, they should obviously continue
If theyre foreign investments, those monies should have a varying tax structure

In this thread, someone who hasnt read enough here said reagonomics is a fix all, but I deny this, as times have changed, as thoswe investors put their monies in Holland and Germany
I say its time they pull those monies out, reinvest here at home, with incentives
Lower the overpriced pay of those who "lead" their companies, spread that amongst the people on board, DONT give it to the government, wholl have to create a system of distribution, fairness etc, then print seperate financials to each reciprient, as they also keep tabs on them, way too costly an issue
Just pay the folks more, the "heads" less

PS This isnt communism, which paying more should be held in regard
Athletes, actors etc, can get those monies, and the sysem works
If they quit going to movies, or not go or watch ballgames, thise will change, as it doesnt show signs of problems, unlike the rest of the system, where the boards have lost their senses going after the guy they want
Yet theres ridicule about AMD for not replacing their head man
I say, they need money, they are doing OK, dont jump the gun, find the right fit
Even in College football, many decent schools hire young up and comers, so too should these corps

 

[Reynod]

Some good points guys ... enjoyed reading these latest posts.