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My thoughts on Geforce FX

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February 25, 2003 5:12:36 AM

Keep in mind I am not that "pro" at computers..............

Okay let's put aside the FPS and the benchmark or the SPEC; I just want to make a statement about the noise etc.

Remember the GeForce FX that has the huge fans that's like a portable vacuum cleaner is just a design made by nvidia.
If u seen the article from gainward and the design from asus (I am not sure if that the right pic) u can see that it is possible for the FX to be quiet (I mean quieter) and if Asus and Gainward and possible other companies can make the fan quiet they must have ways to keep the heat down as well.... so don't judge on the heat/noise issue until the card is officially released in my opinion.

Now about the price........ I seriously doubt that ATI R9800 and up will cost cheaper than GFX..... Unless ATI has someway to make all their future chip under 0.15 micron and uses recycled material (kidding: P) and remember when GeForce 3 first came out? It was 400-500$ as well, the truth is, new stuff are expensive, live with it, if u can't afford it wait and eventually u can. "but ATI is cheaper blah blah blah" if it's better it's more expensive, live with it, so what if it's just a little more faster in performance? It is still faster. Also remember Geforce FX is build under 0.13 micron process, when 0.13 micron CPUs first came out do u think they were cheap? Did they become cheap?

About the release of this card being delayed so much times, imagine if FX is released now with crappy config and drivers, it is going to do even worse than if they release it later with better configurations. Also they could be using it as marketing strategies, that longer they drag it the more desperate people will become, but I think while they're doing that they forgot about ATI (or did they oooh... company conspiracy)

One last thing, this is based solely on my own opinion

I think the only reason it took so long for FX to be made is due to the 0.13 micron change over, as far as I know, it is quite a complex and expensive process, and I think by doing so at this time, Nvidia will beat ATI in the long run. by the time ATI moves on to the 0.13 micron technology, Nvidia would have already be matured in the technology, so the is an all out war. And both companies got the money to fight in it. And the real winner would be.............. US the consumers hahahaha

Okay if u thinks this article is incorrect in any way I¡¦ll say sorry in advance and this is based solely on my opinion

More about : thoughts geforce

a b U Graphics card
February 25, 2003 5:54:52 AM

Itdoesn't matter if the 9800 is cheaper, the fact that the 9700pro is 'about' as good a performer for $100 less RIGHT now, let alone the price drop once the FX is released is more important.
Their future cards will incorporate 0.13, and some will incorporate DDRII, and they Aren't THAT far off, heck will we even SEE a working copy of the FX in stores before the nd of march? Do you not think ATI is using this time to perfect. Unless Nvidia has already abandoned the Fx and is perfecting the NV35 or 40 for release by the summer, it's not hard for ATI to catch up and take the crown again. Heck the 9700pro LevelIIse beats the FX right now. So the current 0.15 process has a long life under the current build.
We already waited for the the FX and most think it isn't worth the wait. Very delayed, while the R300 came out of almost nowhere. So keep saving, eventually you have to spend, the question is when and for what? Are you waiting for optical or quantum architectures?

Forget your conspiracies, any product that had this much hype and this poor a release,isn't hiding anything. More liekly Nvidia felt forced to release the card before they were perfected because people have been saying, where is it? WHERE IS IT? And now that it's here and it's not a quantum leap everyone expected. No one has forgotten about the 9700, especially gamers who have been waiting for the FX. Nvidia fanboys are definitely gonna get one, but if it ain't green to them, it's not going into their box even if it required 2 pci slots and it's own circuit breaker in your house.
Why do you think ATI isn't perfecting 0.13 NOW. The difference is that they don't NEED it right now. Nvidia has put all of their reseources and the entire future of their company into this card and this design. Ati has time to run the end of their current cycles, if Nvidia could extend the life of their G4s they wouldn't be releasing an unfinished product, they'd still be milking the GF4s.
However you are correct in the end, all of this can only benifit the consumer, but only if we get ALL the info. Otherwise you may get stuck with less than you expected for more than you wanted to pay. My advice, unless you REALLY need one now, WAIT, the price of both the ATI and Nvidia cards will come down with the release of more silicon.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
February 25, 2003 6:40:40 AM

Noise:
I still haven't seen a review on a quiet card. I'm holding my breath, but I might pass out before I see a card on the market. I'm actually excited about seeing the 7db card from Gainward. It's going to be amazing to see where all the heat goes.

Price:
The FX can barely compete with a 9700 Pro so it already is losing. Don't worry about the 9800 since ATI will probably not release it until the FX is in full production, and at that point the 9800 will just be released to try and ensure that they have the fastest card.

Release:
It was supposed to be out, released to pre-orders, on the 20th. It looks like all 2500 in North America will be released on March 31st now. I'm not sure when the 750 set aside for Asia and the 1000 set aside to Europe will be released though. As far as we all know, production was halted due to bad yields and publicity and only those few that actually were manufactured will be released. If Nvidia is smart, they'll just draw this whole thing out until all the driver, heat, weight, performance, price, and yield issues are resolved.

<font color=red>
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February 25, 2003 12:22:57 PM

Well, if ATI have any marketing sense (And they seem to be a bit more clued up than nvidia lately), then, as dhlucke says, they'll wait until the FX hits mass production and play the game EXACTLY the way that nvidia played. That is, be a pricktease... tempt the punter with promises of a new wonder card that'll all but blow you...etc etc. Sound unlikely? Seems to be nvidia's mantra recently.

Now I don't neccesarily agree with tactics like that. i think it should be left to radical methods, like...LET THE CONSUMER DECIDE! Cut the bullshit and produce a decent card and ship it. But it was different. No sooner than the R9700 hit the streets, the big nvidia propaganda machine kicked in. We all read the white papers, the pre-pre-pre-pre release stuff promising this wonder card. They trade on fanboy loyality. I don't like it but it's the way of the corporate world.

And now ATI is taking market share with the R9700, I just wonder if they'll do just that. Exploit the loyal ATI disciples. As soon as the FX has all (and that's a LOT!) of it's quirks eliminated and they make a semi-decent card, I think people will buy it. And if it's good enough why not? So will ATI play the game....? We'll see. I mean, it stinks bigger than a 10foot shitheap, but hey, what do I know?!

Now I'm no fanboy either way. I just go with whoever happens to come up with the <b>best</b> product (NOT fastest or biggest, just the best all rounder). So, no flaming please! Just the way I see it!
February 25, 2003 3:10:03 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe.. i might be wrong but as far as i learned before u can even perfect 0.13 micron u have switch into it first, and it's not that easy, as i have said it's complex and expensive. Also if ATI is delevoping 0.13 there will be news release from TSMS (the taiwan semi-conducter manufacturor which is one of the main producer of 0.13 micron process for Nvidia and also i think for ATI) or other companie should receive instruction for switching to 0.13 but i am not sure about that
February 25, 2003 4:54:34 PM

But what are the benefits of moving to .13 micron? The answer is less heat and less noise. If ATI is using a .15 micron process and still achieves less heat and less noise for about the same performance, then why would you bother? It seems to me that nVidia is already at the end of the .13 micron process and should be looking to .09 micron while ATI can still use .15 for a little while longer.

'It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.'
February 25, 2003 6:00:13 PM

It seems to me that any process must be in production for a good while before it begins to yield high speeds. Seriously, you don't just convert to a new interconnect process and start producing cores at the top of the megahertz curve. It takes some time to get yields up to the point where heat comes down. Look at the T_Bred 1700+. The original T-bred's in .13 process weren't coming close to where they are now--2.3-2.5 ghz or more. There may even be more headroom to be eeked out of the process.

If nVidia ever sees any advantage in going to .13 first it may be that ATI will hit a speed ceiling and will be forced to modernize. At that point, the advantage *may* go back to nVidia, at least for a short while, while ATI works on improving yields.



I want to move to space, so I can overclock processors cooled to absolute zero.
February 25, 2003 8:00:16 PM

Personally I would not count on Gainward's solution, nor hold my breath for it.

Another thing, ok so the card may be out with much better drivers and cooling. You are still left with an architecture with MANY HOLES. Any time a single texturing game is launched, you will play at 50% of the R300's performance. Any time games are not optimized for the CineFX architecture, you might not get the promised performance. You will get performance gaps in many areas simply because nVidia did not standardize its performance to current cards, THEN add its own special features. In other words they could've installed the R300's DirectX 9 architecture and speccs, then upgraded with their own. That could've amounted to so much more performance.

Another thing, its AA can only be so much more performing than the R300 in future benchmarks (as it stands, it is losing), but as I've seen from you linking to Anandtech's article, we're talking with very low quality AA. 2X AA is said to be barely any different from nothing. So, maybe you get better performance, but your image quality is barely better!
nVidia has much more on this one.

In the end, the card can have silent cooling, but what about heat, if the back side with a heatsink was drawing 68ºc!
In the end, the card can have better drivers, but its architecture is prone to holes anytime like a Pentium 4 Wilamette had in certain tasks.
In the end, the card can have better AA performance despite a lower bandwidth amount, but the overall lower image quality is much more apparent.

Wish those 3 flaws would be addressed, then I'd consider this new card.

--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden. :smile:
February 25, 2003 9:13:00 PM

Is'nt the RV350 on .13? I think they did the smart thing and are testing it out on budget cards before they make the leap.
February 25, 2003 11:37:29 PM

I believe Ati is also using TMSC for producing 0.13 chips. And since Nvidia has already tackled the first couple hurdles. I believe it will be easier for ATI. Also remember we probably won't see a 0.13 Ati card until R400 so that gives them even more time to perfect the process.

I think this year is looking bright for Ati, and us the consumer. All we need is a 3rd party in this Ati vs Nvidia war to really shake things up!
February 25, 2003 11:49:59 PM

Makaveli will let's see which companite can pull off something like this..... must have alooot of money and have the technology to pull off something like this.....
some name pops out of my head
this is just random

Microsoft (hey they made mouses and network device and they got tons of money to waste)
Sony ( they also had nice images with their monitor and TV)
IBM ( computer company)

that's all i could think of right now but why not, the more the better, more choices and cheaper price ^^
February 26, 2003 12:37:35 AM

well i don't know about you, but i think ATi's pullin in the money pretty well. They got a chunk of mine along with everyone else who's tired of nVidia holding a FX card over our head and saying, NOPE, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT, WAIT 2 WEEKS! Not to mention with the prices of the 9700 dropping, more and more people are moving over to ATi, i believe they have the money to pull off a .13 move on us.

"What kind of idiot are you?"
"I don't know, what kinds are there?"
February 26, 2003 12:44:56 AM

Well, considering all the numbers floating around, the gainward card will still be interesting. If it fails, we'll all have a good laugh. If it succeeds, it will definitely change the way we cool our computers.

I have a gainward card and I have to say that they make one hell of a videocard. If they could pull of a silent cooler that would be able to displace all that heat, good for them.

Nonetheless, I don't see it happening on air cooling. If they're using air cooling they still have to blow the air somewhere and I just don't see how they can keep the temps low enough at 7db.

We can't possibly expect to have temps high enough to burn you blowing out the back of the PC.

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<A HREF="http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?dhlucke" target="_new">If you were to have sex with your clone would that be considered incest or masturbation?</A></font color=red>
February 26, 2003 12:46:03 AM

The price of the R9700 Pro is actually going UP.

<font color=red>
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February 26, 2003 4:03:18 AM

the main move of nvidia to .13 was _NOT_ technical. it was marketing. intel moved since quite some while to .13, and is talking (or yet using?) .09 (or 90nm, sounds even cooler:D ), _THATS_ why nvidia did it. it _SOUNDS_ more futuristic and more future proof. look at the gf4TI4800 (thats the name?), the geforce 4 with AGP 8X!!!! or the geforce 4 MX with AGP 8X!!!! they always have stunning new technology features on their cards, used or not.

nvidia definitely showed .13 is not the holy grail, _USING_ it would be. their card design is definitely crap, else it would work much bether than the ati cards temparature wise, energy consumation wise, etc. but knowing some features the gfFX provides, i know they actually copied quite some structures directly from gf3 hw design. does not show me hope, as i yet at the days of the gf1 started to shudder how they internally designed their pipes (and that thing got bigger and more bloaty.. uhh ohh).

well.. possibly ati does not produce .13 at all, possibly they work with intel at 90nm? who knows:D  who cares? ati's cards are about as fast, cooler, more quiet, smaller, less weight, less energy consuming, and proofen to be good since 6 months, and AVAILABLE!! :D  last one is the best argument imho..

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
a b U Graphics card
February 26, 2003 7:32:00 AM

You don't have to switch into 0.13 first to learn how to perfect it, you let others, and I don't mean NVDIDIA perfect it for other things, like the processor group, and learn what they say, then you create TINY batches of test engines. THEN you combine THAT knowledge and the knowledge gained by what your competition has missed and muffed in building theirs. The Difference is that NVIDIA went whole hog before knowing if they could really get it to work smoothly, they have no 0.15 cards to fall back on. ATI has the option of continuing their 0.15 lines until their 0.13 dies are to their liking. NVIDIA had to release something, and had nothing left.
The big Difference, ATI is perfecting their boards BEFORE mass manufacturing them, NVIDIA is trying to perfect them AFTER setting the production line on FULL. Nvidia thought there would be enough of a performance increase to create demand and then they could perfect it later. However the minimal increase in performance means that their incomplete card won't have that luxury. The Radeon 9700 can overclock WAY beyond the FX, and the stock version is EXTREMELY competitive, and better priced, and CHEAPER to produce (read more profit per board for ATI, or lower possible break even price).
As to 'news' coming out about any switch to 0.13, well there's already info on the net, like at Chip Online, and I don't see a press release from TSMS. So if the 9600 is indeed 0.13 like we read then ATI is already there.
What is likely happening at ATI is cranking the living daylights out of the 0.15 process in the 9800, and then 'under-clocking' the 9600, and introducing it as a mid-range card so as to not require the Tornado-Tunnel fan on the GPU like the FX.
Now THAT'S the way to perfect the 0.13 process without switching to it EXCLUSIVELY first.
Nvidia has no other route.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
a b U Graphics card
February 26, 2003 7:47:20 AM

However Nvidia has hurt itself by not taking the ATI route and continuing to the logical end of the 0.15 process before putting all your eggs in one basket. The 9700 has shown to have alot of life left in it (see the LIIIse), the FX has come to show it is simply a test model, which needs alot of perfecting, yet it costs what one would only expect to pay for a full-fledged final product.
Being first doesn't necessarily mean they will perfect the process first. They may feel forced to, and have all their hopes riding on perfecting it, but there are many examples, especially in electronics, where first to the gate have fallen by the wayside as others who watched their errors, saved their R&D money to fixes the bugs before re-tooling for production.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
a b U Graphics card
February 26, 2003 8:02:25 AM

What is Microsoft doing in you list?
Sure IBM and SONY are innovators, however they don't drop their money making lines in order to foist unperfected technology on the masses until absolutely necessary.

Microsoft hasn't invented/innovated ANYTHING. Unless you're comparing Nvidia's purchase of 3Dfx with MS's buying of other people's idea, then you might have something.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
a b U Graphics card
February 26, 2003 8:28:46 AM

GPUs aren't like CPUs. There are far more transistors in most GPU's than in any modern CPU. Moving to the 0.13 and 0.9 process for both ATI and Nvidia will be pretty hard, and likely pose many problems that didn't occur for Intel and AMD.

However, you may be right in one aspect, we may have missed the true oportunity for 0.13 and it may be a quick stepping stone to 0.9, if not for ATI and Nvidia, maybe for some 3rd player trying to make an endrun.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
February 26, 2003 8:58:26 AM

The FX looks like a prototype rush released simply because they panicked. ATI start to dominate the key market area that was once reserved purely for Nvidia. And they got scared. Scared that people would turn to ATI and not come back.....Why? Because the R9700 et al is a far superior product line, and will continue to dominate for a hell of a lot longer.

Like you say, ATI has now reason to rush to 0.13. Milk the 0.15 for all it's worth and make sure that when they do make the jump, they don't make an nvuck up of it.
February 26, 2003 9:04:44 AM

watching what intel currently proposes to get up to 5giga onto a .13 chip, its much more than simply going down in size to get a chip faster.

there is something every programmer has to learn: its algorithms that count. a calculation cannot be done faster by simply forcing it to be faster (overclocking, bether cpu), but by rethinking the design, doing less calculation. restructuring how you do the algo is important.
thats what intel is currently doing, and they get from 3giga to 5giga with this.
ati has bether design as well, showing that they have great performance with "low quality chip". nvidias chip sucks.. thats like playing a game on a 2gig processor, but not gaining more than 10-20fps, but similar games ran well on the old p3 500mhz.

shrinking die-size does help, a little. but only if you design well at the same time.

and shrinking die-size espencially helps in one thing: clock speed. at the current die-size, .13, a p4 with the current design cannot get to 5gigahertz, the length of individual paths is too long to be walked through 5billion times a second. thats why they redesign for shortest paths.

the nvidia card is very low clocked (think of a p4 with 500mhz, HAHA), so the major gain, high possible clockspeeds, is a non-issue on the gfFX. the other, lower temperature, shows to not be true if the chip design is wrong..

a radeon could get to 2giga, a gfFX to 3giga. and then, the gfFX would win because of the die size. but non of these cards will ever get that fast, other issues stop them at much lower speeds.

in short: shrinking die does not really help. nvidia prooves it. shrinking die can help, intel prooves it. but its a mather of knowledge what your problem is. nvidias problem is they always want to have fancy named technologies in their stuff, intels problem was currently clockspeed. they realized shrinking die (0.09) would not make it really bether, but simply shift the problem a bit away.. so they started to find the real problems. in intels case: too long path-ways to specific instructions. (and other things, too).

gpu's and cpu's are very similar, but have different bottlenecks. nvidia prooved to not know what their own bottlenecks really are, and they prooved to not know what future needs are.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
November 18, 2004 1:26:38 PM

*aims*
BANG! die evil ancient thread-miner die!

Seriously... why?

---
"Sex without love is an empty experience...
But as empty experiences go, it's one of the best" - Woody Allen
November 18, 2004 3:00:46 PM

ah yes... The good ol' days of FX bashing.

hmm.. Does kind of make you think...

The first product line on a newer, smaller process, that produces $hitloads of heat, consumes loads of power, and performs worse than anticipated... Yet Marketing dictates that it gets released anyway....

Seems like history <i>does</i> indeed repeat itself, albeit in a different market sector this time. :lol: 

---
"Sex without love is an empty experience...
But as empty experiences go, it's one of the best" - Woody Allen
November 18, 2004 9:10:33 PM

Technology this and technology that, who cares? At the end its a matter of wich product does better in the programs we use. Nvidia won some with DOOM 3 and ATI will win with HL2. Both product are good, what really needs special attention is the drivers released in which BOTH makers has so far been rather clumsy at. He who makes the best driver will win the market till they slop again.

Those 5900 lines are still extremely overpriced sicne the 9800 lines are better, except doom3, and are much cheaper. There Ive put my 2 cents in.

<i><font color=red>Only an overclocker can make a computer into a convectional oven.</i></font color=red>
a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2004 3:10:40 AM

Just trying to make me into a nOOb again, eh! :lol: 

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
November 19, 2004 3:32:05 AM

THAT WAS MY VERY FIRST POST!!!

*sniff sniff*

i tried sounding intelligent... but i lost it from there :D 

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy+119% Money Fanboy
GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy :D 
a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2004 5:35:58 AM

I have to say I would prefer if we had silly meaningless titles.

The whole thing is a little goofy.

Anonimity can ne a nice thing too.

Almost sounds like you're getting older and longing for youth.

You need more time playing. :lol: 


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 11/19/04 00:37 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
November 19, 2004 8:03:48 AM

What, me? nah... you must be mistaken....

---
"Sex without love is an empty experience...
But as empty experiences go, it's one of the best" - Woody Allen
November 19, 2004 9:03:26 AM

Im reading this post and im like wtf, there releasing a new fx series (Thinking maybe they were bringing that junk to pci-x). I have to stop reading posts at 6 am lol.

Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 Dual Channel Level II V2,Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+, Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum Pro, eVGA GeForce 6800 GT
November 19, 2004 2:20:38 PM

Been hanging around here to long. Poor chap has lost his mind. :frown:
November 19, 2004 3:07:42 PM

No kidding, I gotta get the hell out of here before I start speaking in abbreviation.

Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 Dual Channel Level II V2,Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+, Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum Pro, eVGA GeForce 6800 GT
November 20, 2004 4:46:17 AM

Wow I totally forgot you started posting with the GF FX post! I remember I was like "Aw gawd not another FX defender post".... :smile:

And now we have a nice backdoor action friend. :wink:

--
<font color=blue>Ede</font color=blue>
November 22, 2004 12:59:39 AM

backdoor action? that's just all you

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy+119% Money Fanboy
GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy :D 
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2005 6:44:09 PM

:cool:
DUDE!
:evil: 


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
March 29, 2005 8:56:11 PM

So you've made a <i>minimum</i> of 7851 posts without changing your sig. That's bizzare. Don't you get bored of it? :eek: 

---
Winnie 3200+ @ ~2.5Ghz, ~1.41V
1Gb @ 209Mhz, 2T, 3-5-5-10
Asus 6800GT 128Mb
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2005 10:39:31 PM

LOL!

Never really think about it myself. People keep asking me why I don't change it, and there's really no reason for/against.

Maybe I should make a list in the POLL section and have people pick a replacement. :lol: 

How about, "Now you see that evil will always triumph.. because good is dumb!"

"Close as I can figure it ther year is 2005AD and I'm being dragged to my death. It wasn't always like this... I had a real life once."

"You can do Magic Things."
"It's called <i>EVIL</i> kid."

Anywhoo, always fel the signature fit just fine, but maybe I'll change it next 'title' change.

EDIT: Actually it has changed somewhat over time, it was clicky to PBS' RedGreen site for a while in the words 'red green', but they changed their site (is it even on PBS in the US anymore?), and no goood replacement since that will fit inside the character limit of the sig.

EDIT 2: I have updated to add the clicky back in as the original site is back up, now I guess run by Steve Smith himself. Might not appear until next post.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 03/29/05 04:51 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
March 30, 2005 4:46:20 AM

Yu are teh bak!!!~~~~oneone

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March 30, 2005 1:30:45 PM

This thread is 2 years old damn you!

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April 1, 2005 4:06:49 AM

We need your flaming. Badly.

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!