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Starter Only Vampires, revisited...

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Anonymous
February 21, 2005 1:06:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

So not 'cause I'm schilling for anyone, but 'cause it goes back to an
earlier, endless discussion between me and Fred.

The Lasombra is now selling broken open KMW starter decks. Including many
copies of all the starter only vampires. For, like, $2.00 each. So, like,
here is your opportunity to go and buy up all the starter only vampires from
that set for a reasonable price. Without bidding on them. And without having
to search for them on the internet on sites in laguages of questionable
origin. And without having to buy the starter decks ('cause, ya know, who
wants to waste money on a box with 2 Torn Signpost, Alastor, and 3 Second
Traditions...)

Don't you owe me, like, some money from a bet or something now, Fred?

:-)


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 4:32:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Peter D Bakija" <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:BE3F633E.1D9BF%pdb6@lightlink.com...
> Don't you owe me, like, some money from a bet or something now, Fred?

I thought it was the other way around. :-)

Just to review, the issue was NOT, can you find these available for sale
for a moment or two. The issue is whether one can find that for sale on
an ONGOING BASIS. Like, do sellers constantly and consistantly have them
in stock. The answer at the time we already discovered was no. Jeff
posted to say that they tend to sell out quickly - which is exactly what
I thought.

(Of course, it's a little unfair using Jeff as an example as my impression
is that he tends to avoid asking for premiums he could demand if he were
trying to make enough money on this enterprise to be worth his while. But
if you know of a true 'for-profit' outfit that keeps starter-only cards in
stock more or lose consistantly, I'd love to know about them.)

(Specific caveat: NOT starter-only cards that were reissued as tournament
promos. I've since conceded that Final Nights and Sabbat War starter-only
vampires are far more findable, at least in specific locations that had a
lot of tournaments when they were available. But no starter-only vampire
SINCE Final Nights has been available that way to my knowledge. I hope that
statement will eventually be false but for now it appears to be true.)

And don't worry about my supply of starter-only cards for KMW. I have
ordered my starter boxes to get at least what I suspect will be a minimal
supply, assuming the designers have once again done a good job of seeing to
it that they aren't "good rares". I don't want to rush The Lasombra's
existing supply of such cards so the people who truly need them don't have
a shot at them. If - after I actually get to SEE these cards and decide I
may want more - I may contact Jeff to see if he has any more after his regular
customers have had their shot. I doubt I'll need to do that, though. I've
already paid my pound of flesh. (Or will pay when the CC bill comes
due... :-P )

Fred
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 6:55:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> But no starter-only vampire SINCE Final Nights has been available that
> way to my knowledge.
>

Echo


Echo



Echo
Related resources
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 7:01:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Gregory Stuart Pettigrew" <etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in message
news:20050221155425.B36057@sidehack.sat.gweep.net...
>> But no starter-only vampire SINCE Final Nights has been available that
>> way to my knowledge.
>>
>
> Echo

(all right, do I have to state ALL the most obvious disclaimers on every
statement I make?!?)

Fred



Fred



Fred
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 7:22:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:06:54 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pdb6@lightlink.com>
wrote:

> Don't you owe me, like, some money from a bet or something now, Fred?

This shows that starter only vampires are very hard to get and cost a lot
of money. You need to go into the length of actually losing a bet with
someone to be able to get them online, which adds up to a huge cost.
Meaning, if Fred owes you money, his costs go up, and his point that
starter only vampires can only be obtained with high associated costs is
proven, meaning you lose the bet. And probably owe him money. Wait... ;) 

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 9:56:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:4zrSd.13274$ds.11198@okepread07...
>
> "Peter D Bakija" <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message
> news:BE3F633E.1D9BF%pdb6@lightlink.com...
>> Don't you owe me, like, some money from a bet or something now, Fred?
>
> I thought it was the other way around. :-)
>
> Just to review, the issue was NOT, can you find these available for sale
> for a moment or two. The issue is whether one can find that for sale on
> an ONGOING BASIS. Like, do sellers constantly and consistantly have them
> in stock. The answer at the time we already discovered was no.

There are NO places available to purchase all cards buyers want constantly.
So the answer remains no and will always remain no.

Its a simple matter of suply and distribution.

Raille
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:38:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1109030164.6aff6ff2e6d35e3c2d9d769ea9974f73@teranews...
> >
> > "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
> > news:4zrSd.13274$ds.11198@okepread07...
> >> Just to review, the issue was NOT, can you find these available
for sale
> >> for a moment or two. The issue is whether one can find that for
sale on
> >> an ONGOING BASIS. Like, do sellers constantly and consistantly
have them
> >> in stock. The answer at the time we already discovered was no.
> >
> > There are NO places available to purchase all cards buyers want
constantly.
>
> Sure there is - other than starter only cards: EBAY.

Not always - I wouldn't mind buying a copy of Ur-Shugli, but nobody has
him currently on Ebay nor has he been auctioned for the last month. 1
copy of Decapitate two weeks ago, and none now. No Lunatic Eruption in
that time frame. 1 Hungry Coyote now, but none for a month before that.


I'd agree Ebay is a place available to purchase most of the cards
buyers want most of the time, but not all cards all the time (and often
for extreme prices.)

> Fred

-John Flournoy
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 11:18:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109030164.6aff6ff2e6d35e3c2d9d769ea9974f73@teranews...
>
> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:4zrSd.13274$ds.11198@okepread07...
>> Just to review, the issue was NOT, can you find these available for sale
>> for a moment or two. The issue is whether one can find that for sale on
>> an ONGOING BASIS. Like, do sellers constantly and consistantly have them
>> in stock. The answer at the time we already discovered was no.
>
> There are NO places available to purchase all cards buyers want constantly.

Sure there is - other than starter only cards: EBAY.

Fred
February 22, 2005 3:13:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Fred
>
>
>
> Fred
>
>
>
> Fred

"- I don't have multiple personalities !

- Me neither !

- Me neither !"

Orpheus, Orpheus and Orpheus.
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 12:26:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

> Sure there is - other than starter only cards: EBAY.

I dunno--there are always cards I'm looking for on e-bay that aren't there.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 12:49:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"John Flournoy" <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1109043499.922443.45480@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1109030164.6aff6ff2e6d35e3c2d9d769ea9974f73@teranews...
>> > "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>> > news:4zrSd.13274$ds.11198@okepread07...
>> >> The issue is whether one can find that for sale on
>> >> an ONGOING BASIS. Like, do sellers constantly and
>> >> consistantly have them in stock. The answer at the
>> >> time we already discovered was no.
>> >
>> > There are NO places available to purchase all cards buyers want
>> > constantly.
>>
>> Sure there is - other than starter only cards: EBAY.
>
> Not always - I wouldn't mind buying a copy of Ur-Shugli, but nobody has
> him currently on Ebay nor has he been auctioned for the last month. 1
> copy of Decapitate two weeks ago, and none now. No Lunatic Eruption in
> that time frame. 1 Hungry Coyote now, but none for a month before that.

All right, fair enough. I am trying to make my point by comparison to
starter-only vampires in expansions that have occurred in the last two
or three years. But checking the Ur-Shugli thing, as far as EBAY will go
back, it appears you are correct. Ur-Shugli, in my recollection, was seen
commonly enough in auctions for at least a good two or three years
following his printing. "Rare 1"s in Final Nights, not coincidentally,
were another thing I protested for a sort of similar reason: if you print
many R2s and few R1s in an expansion, people tend to open boosters at a
rate that treats the R2s as the rares of the expansion and thus R1s
become "super-rares". That have to or they spend far too much money
getting the same R2s over and over. But I think many people found the
11-cap independent vampires rather corner-case sorts of cards and, in any
case, White Wolf has never repeated that scheme in that sort of awkward
way. (Bloodlines had R1s and R2s but with a much higher percentage of R1s.)

The Hungry Coyote surprises me. I guess it's just a highly useful card
that hasn't been reprinted since Sabbat War. (Probably should have been
reprinted in Black Hand but I guess it's hard to expect WW to think of
and do everything.) Again, that's one I saw sold for years after SW was
printed but perhaps its availability now is just petering out, as with
Lunatic Erruption as well.

To understand what I'm trying to preach about, you kind of half to take
the meaning without nitpicking at the details - which certain people are
certain doing (...doing...doing...doing). Contrast these years-old rares
with recent printings of Anarchs and Black Hand starter-only vampires
for which I've had a search up since when Peter and I started arguing about
it last month and it hasn't had a hit yet. Guess it's time to add the
KMW starter-only search and see to what extent Peter is right about
(at least) temporary availability of starter-only cards.

> I'd agree Ebay is a place available to purchase most of the cards
> buyers want most of the time, but not all cards all the time (and often
> for extreme prices.)

All right. I'll give you that.

Fred
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 5:00:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd agree Ebay is a place available to purchase most of the cards
> buyers want most of the time, but not all cards all the time (and
> often for extreme prices.)

How do you define "extreme"? I do not think that word means what you
think it means. :) 

Ur-Shulgi goes for ~$12-16, the same cost as ~7 booster packs. Do you
think you have a 100% chance of finding Ur-Shulgi in ~7 booster packs?

> -John Flournoy

Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 4:04:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

('cause, ya know, who
wants to waste money on a box with 2 Torn Signpost, Alastor, and 3
Second
Traditions...)

Don't forget the Disarm!
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 7:27:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

robertscythe@hotmail.com wrote:

> Don't forget the Disarm!

I kept forgetting that...

So in the Alastor deck, you get:

-Alastor
-Disarm
-2x TS
-3x 2nd Tradition
-2x Psyche!

and lot of other handy stuff...


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 8:44:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:0wxSd.13646$ds.653@okepread07...
>
> "Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1109030164.6aff6ff2e6d35e3c2d9d769ea9974f73@teranews...
>>
>> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>> news:4zrSd.13274$ds.11198@okepread07...
>>> Just to review, the issue was NOT, can you find these available for sale
>>> for a moment or two. The issue is whether one can find that for sale on
>>> an ONGOING BASIS. Like, do sellers constantly and consistantly have
>>> them
>>> in stock. The answer at the time we already discovered was no.
>>
>> There are NO places available to purchase all cards buyers want
>> constantly.
>
> Sure there is - other than starter only cards: EBAY.
>
> Fred


*Bzzzt*

Wrong answer. Perhaps you failed to absorp the question.

Ebay does not have, never has, and will not have, a list of all cards in
stock at any single time.

Since you were so concerned about finding a card on an ongoing basis, rather
than for a moment or two.
(Your words, see above), then you already know that ebay is not the answer.

What you have not come to grasp, is that there is no answer. Once rare
cards fall into circulation, then the chance
of those rare cards showing up for sale *anywhere* else goes down.

Raille
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 10:29:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> > Perhaps you failed to absorp the question.
> >
> > Ebay does not have, never has, and will not have, a list of all
cards in
> > stock at any single time.
>
> Not the point. Essentially, you _can_ get almost any card you want
on EBAY
> sooner or later within some period of time - though perhaps there is
some level
> of rarity combined with age of most recent printing that will
eventually
> make for a long wait even on EBAY before that card turns up.
>
> None the less, you're clearly nitpicking about this - or perhaps it's
you who
> is failing to absorb the point. The point is that starter-only cards
are
> MUCH harder to find (basically impossible, IME) for sale even when
recently
> printed.

You mean, they're hard to find *on ebay* or otherwise sold as singles.
They are, in fact, *ridiculously easy* to find in a starter deck.

John
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 11:23:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1109241846.eafb3c08ef35d6603377a2b336821ba4@teranews...
>
> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:0wxSd.13646$ds.653@okepread07...
>>
>> "Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1109030164.6aff6ff2e6d35e3c2d9d769ea9974f73@teranews...
>>>
>>> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4zrSd.13274$ds.11198@okepread07...
>>>> Just to review, the issue was NOT, can you find these available for sale
>>>> for a moment or two. The issue is whether one can find that for sale on
>>>> an ONGOING BASIS. Like, do sellers constantly and consistantly have
>>>> them in stock. The answer at the time we already discovered was no.
>>>
>>> There are NO places available to purchase all cards buyers want
>>> constantly.
>>
>> Sure there is - other than starter only cards: EBAY.
>
> *Bzzzt*
>
> Wrong answer.

My judges like it.

> Perhaps you failed to absorp the question.
>
> Ebay does not have, never has, and will not have, a list of all cards in
> stock at any single time.

Not the point. Essentially, you _can_ get almost any card you want on EBAY
sooner or later within some period of time - though perhaps there is some level
of rarity combined with age of most recent printing that will eventually
make for a long wait even on EBAY before that card turns up.

None the less, you're clearly nitpicking about this - or perhaps it's you who
is failing to absorb the point. The point is that starter-only cards are
MUCH harder to find (basically impossible, IME) for sale even when recently
printed. The fact that The Lasombra puts them up for sale and they instantly
get sold out after a minute or two obviously doesn't negate this or disprove
anything. If I accepted that as proof, Peter could just put up a set for sale
himself once and *poof*, I'd be 'wrong'. There's a difference between people
selling something as a profitable activity vs. for other reasons.

Fred
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 1:35:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> <jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
> news:1109258975.816090.33480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> None the less, you're clearly nitpicking about this - or perhaps
it's
> >> you who is failing to absorb the point. The point is that
starter-only
> >> cards are MUCH harder to find (basically impossible, IME) for sale
even
> >> when recently printed.
> >
> > You mean, they're hard to find *on ebay* or otherwise sold as
singles.
> > They are, in fact, *ridiculously easy* to find in a starter deck.
>
> Ahhh, sure. There're ridiculously easy to find where they are.
Seems
> like a bit of a tautology to me but if it spins your buttons to make
> that point, go to town.
>
> Fred

Ok... what was *your* point then? That you couldn't find them? You can.
That you had to pay $10 for two of them (three in the case of the Baali
starter, which has two copies of Maureen) - less per vamp if you buy
them in bulk from TheLasombra or Potomac? Well, okay, but most of us
are pretty okay that we can get a fixed number of them at a fixed cost
without looking too hard and ignore them if we don't want them. That no
one put them up on Ebay? Sure, but most of us aren't holding WW
responsible for what we can/can't find on Ebay. That WW wants to give
you a bunch of free cardboard with your $10 purchase? Who are we to
complain?

Or is your point that you think starter-only cards are bad because you
don't like them. Is that any less of a tautology?

John
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 2:10:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
news:1109258975.816090.33480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> None the less, you're clearly nitpicking about this - or perhaps it's
>> you who is failing to absorb the point. The point is that starter-only
>> cards are MUCH harder to find (basically impossible, IME) for sale even
>> when recently printed.
>
> You mean, they're hard to find *on ebay* or otherwise sold as singles.
> They are, in fact, *ridiculously easy* to find in a starter deck.

Ahhh, sure. There're ridiculously easy to find where they are. Seems
like a bit of a tautology to me but if it spins your buttons to make
that point, go to town.

Fred
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:05:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> > Ok... what was *your* point then?
>
> Oh, you actually care now? Good. We're making progress.
> Personally, I might not have caused the extra exchange of posts
> getting to that point but whatever.
>
> > That you couldn't find them? You can.
>
> Sure. Obviously. But...
>
> > That you had to pay $10 for two of them (three in the case of the
Baali
> > starter, which has two copies of Maureen) - less per vamp if you
buy
> > them in bulk from TheLasombra or Potomac?
>
> Bingo.

Alright. I'm more upset that (to use the example given above) that I
can't even *find* an Ur-Shulgi, and if I did, he'd go for $12-16. When
this came up the first time (correct me if I'm wrong), you made the
comparison between starter-only and ultra-rare cards. Well, they're
*cheaper* and *easier to find* than that.

> > Well, okay, but most of us
> > are pretty okay that we can get a fixed number of them at a fixed
cost
> > without looking too hard and ignore them if we don't want them.
>
> A) I'm not certain that "most of (you)" are OK with it. I certainly
got
> some agreement when I originally raised the issue.

Ok, sure. And a lot of people ignored it, too. Is it okay if I assume
that the majority of people who stay silent on an issue don't feel too
strongly about it? Maybe I'm wrong, but when I'm at a meal, silence is
usually taken by the chef as a compliment.

> B) Some people may not care but they may not be thinking the issue
> through very well, IMO. As with all hard-to-find cards, to the
extent
> they're usable, they affect the game including YOUR game whether you
> have the means to obtain them or not. Granted, any given
starter-only
> card may not be that usable (certainly Inquisition is challenging to
> find much use for), but that can't be said of all of them.

Okay... maybe they aren't thinking it through very well because it
doesn't bother them? Because they're a lot easier to find (and, in
extreme cases, much cheaper) than *actual* hard-to-find cards?

> > That no one put them up on Ebay? Sure, but most of us aren't
holding WW
> > responsible for what we can/can't find on Ebay.
>
> Most of...you, Peter, and Raille? OK.
>
> Anyway, that they can't be found on EBAY demonstrates something
profound
> about the nature of these cards that's more clear than if I just
explained
> it in words. Essentially that buying precons is a bad deal for
players.

Except that we also can't find a bunch of other things on Ebay. It
doesn't explain that buying those cards was a bad deal for players.

It's simple supply and demand. WW has (implicitly) guaranteed a
near-infinite supply of these cards. When that happens, value falls
off. However, since WW controls most of that supply, they can set
whatever price they wish ($10) which artificially sets demand (i.e.,
the number of copies in circulation is equal to the number of people
who are willing to buy them at $10 per starter) The market is stagnant,
which makes it hard to profit by selling singles of those cards as
compared to booster-only cards. (This is probably less of a problem in
KMW, actually. Jeff has commented that these starters include enough
great cards to make them much easier to break up and sell).

Funny enough, if the starters were *more* expensive, it might become
more profitable to break them up, because it would become prohibitive
to get 4x Rabbat (or whoever) a $15 per starter, but not to spend $8
each on them singly.

> If they weren't a bad deal, singles dealers - those who care about
profit,
> that is - would spend their time buying them, breaking them open, and
> selling them as singles like they do for boosters. There is
ABSOLUTELY
> NOTHING wrong or different about precons that inherently makes them
unworth
> pursing this activity except for one thing: the cards they contain
are not
> worth obtaining for the price they're sold for. If they were,
singles
> selling from them on EBAY would work just fine and you'd see sellers
> doing that.

Untrue. The cards don't have to be less than $10 worth to make this a
less-profitable venture. Example: suppose that I can open a box of
boosters for (say) $65 and sell the singles for (say) $100. Unless I
can make a $40 box of starters sell for about $61.50 (and bring that
income in just as fast) I can't make *as much* of a profit as I could
by investing in boosters, even if the cards are worth $55 as singles
(or $65 but don't sell fast enough to be worth it).

> > Or is your point that you think starter-only cards are bad because
you
> > don't like them.
>
> Not JUST me, dude. That's why I point to EBAY. The fact that it
doesn't
> happen on EBAY proves there's no market for them. The fact that
there's
> no market proves, well, "most of us" disagree with you - apparently.

No, it proves there's no *secondary* market for them. If there were *no
market* for them, WW wouldn't be able to sell the starters.

There would be no strong secondary market for *any* cards if WW printed
the exact same cards, but instead of putting them in boosters, split
them up into small 30-card sets and made each set available in a box
that gave you 1 of each rare, 3 of each uncommon, and 7 of each common.

Booster-only singles sell well on Ebay because they take *more* effort
to find, not because they take less.

John.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:13:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
news:1109270100.241872.15700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> <jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1109258975.816090.33480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >> The point is that starter-only cards are MUCH harder to
>> >> find (basically impossible, IME) for sale even
>> >> when recently printed.
>> >
>> > You mean, they're hard to find *on ebay* or otherwise sold as
>> > singles. They are, in fact, *ridiculously easy* to find in a
>> > starter deck.
>>
>> Ahhh, sure. There're ridiculously easy to find where they are.
>> Seems like a bit of a tautology to me but if it spins your
>> buttons to make that point, go to town.
>
> Ok... what was *your* point then?

Oh, you actually care now? Good. We're making progress.
Personally, I might not have caused the extra exchange of posts
getting to that point but whatever.

> That you couldn't find them? You can.

Sure. Obviously. But...

> That you had to pay $10 for two of them (three in the case of the Baali
> starter, which has two copies of Maureen) - less per vamp if you buy
> them in bulk from TheLasombra or Potomac?

Bingo.

> Well, okay, but most of us
> are pretty okay that we can get a fixed number of them at a fixed cost
> without looking too hard and ignore them if we don't want them.

A) I'm not certain that "most of (you)" are OK with it. I certainly got
some agreement when I originally raised the issue.

B) Some people may not care but they may not be thinking the issue
through very well, IMO. As with all hard-to-find cards, to the extent
they're usable, they affect the game including YOUR game whether you
have the means to obtain them or not. Granted, any given starter-only
card may not be that usable (certainly Inquisition is challenging to
find much use for), but that can't be said of all of them.

> That no one put them up on Ebay? Sure, but most of us aren't holding WW
> responsible for what we can/can't find on Ebay.

Most of...you, Peter, and Raille? OK.

Anyway, that they can't be found on EBAY demonstrates something profound
about the nature of these cards that's more clear than if I just explained
it in words. Essentially that buying precons is a bad deal for players.
If they weren't a bad deal, singles dealers - those who care about profit,
that is - would spend their time buying them, breaking them open, and
selling them as singles like they do for boosters. There is ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING wrong or different about precons that inherently makes them unworth
pursing this activity except for one thing: the cards they contain are not
worth obtaining for the price they're sold for. If they were, singles
selling from them on EBAY would work just fine and you'd see sellers
doing that.

> Or is your point that you think starter-only cards are bad because you
> don't like them.

Not JUST me, dude. That's why I point to EBAY. The fact that it doesn't
happen on EBAY proves there's no market for them. The fact that there's
no market proves, well, "most of us" disagree with you - apparently.

Fred
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 4:22:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

> The fact that The Lasombra puts them up for sale and they instantly
> get sold out after a minute or two obviously doesn't negate this or disprove
> anything.

Well, just for information's sake, Jeff still has, like, all of the starter
only vampires--it looks like exactly none of them have sold yet (there are
still 8+ of each starter only vampire from the set), but lots of the rares
have already sold out, so folks are buying stuff from the set. But
apparently no one is worried about getting the starter only vampires.

So while I might want to buy a few Shared Strengths, I can't there, but I
can buy 8 Rabbat the Sewer Goddess.

I'm not quite sure what this says, but it certainly leads one to question
your assertion that starter only vampires that go up for sale fly off the
sheleves in seconds and are never seen again.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 4:48:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message news:1109275526.619085.95100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> > Ok... what was *your* point then?
....
>> > That you couldn't find them? You can.
>>
>> Sure. Obviously. But...
>>
>> > That you had to pay $10 for two of them (three in the case of the
>> > Baali starter, which has two copies of Maureen) - less per vamp
>> > if you buy them in bulk from TheLasombra or Potomac?
>>
>> Bingo.
>
> Alright. I'm more upset that (to use the example given above) that I
> can't even *find* an Ur-Shulgi, and if I did, he'd go for $12-16. When
> this came up the first time (correct me if I'm wrong), you made the
> comparison between starter-only and ultra-rare cards. Well, they're
> *cheaper* and *easier to find* than that.

Apples to oranges. Final Nights was expansion that took place years
ago - and during the comparable period of time, you _could_ find
Ur-Shulgi during the comparable periord of time. Also, you're using
a type of card whose manner of printing (R1s in an expansion where
most rare slot cards were R2s) that I also complained about at the
time. (So at least point to Hungry Coyote or something else. Then
I'll just say, "Apples to oranges.")

>> > Well, okay, but most of us
....
>> A) I'm not certain that "most of (you)" are OK with it. I certainly
>> got some agreement when I originally raised the issue.
>
> Ok, sure. And a lot of people ignored it, too. Is it okay if I assume
> that the majority of people who stay silent on an issue don't feel too
> strongly about it?

Nope. Nor that they don't feel it's wrong, either. It could also mean
they don't care to post about their feelings or that they didn't notice it
or that they agree with me and find no reason to make a, "Me, too." post
which is generally against netiquette. You don't know what it means (and
neither do I, granted). Don't pretend you do.

> Okay... maybe they aren't thinking it through very well because it
> doesn't bother them? Because they're a lot easier to find (and, in
> extreme cases, much cheaper) than *actual* hard-to-find cards?

Perhaps. But that was never exactly my issue - not the way you're
framing it.

>> Anyway, that they can't be found on EBAY demonstrates something
>> profound about the nature of these cards that's more clear than
>> if I just explained it in words. Essentially that buying precons
>> is a bad deal for players.
>
> Except that we also can't find a bunch of other things on Ebay. It
> doesn't explain that buying those cards was a bad deal for players.

Ah, you want me to explain that now, too? You can ask. In fact,
it's an excellent question and I'm glad you're curious.

It's a bad deal for players because there are too many cards that too
few players actually need in precons overall. It's all well and good
to state that precons "are for newer players" and reprint a bunch of
staple cards that WW is (apparently) assuming they need. But if
you're going to print a very small number of cards that BOTH newer
and older players need in precons, you've created this huge, awkward
sore thumb of a rarity situation. There's like 85 or 86 cards only
the newbies want and 3 or 4 cards everybody wants - and the package is
priced pretty much on par with booster packs (per card, that is) which
contain 11 cards out of 11 that everybody want.

There may also be other issues. Too many bad old overly common cards
that newbies could just get from older players for the asking. (How
many Open Grates do I need? :-P ) Not enough newer players exist to
buy these things at all - so I can't trade the Dreams I get in my
precon for another copy of The Book of Going Forth. Who knows? I only
know the reasons are sufficient that precons will not support a singles
market and that's bad.

> It's simple supply and demand. WW has (implicitly) guaranteed a
> near-infinite supply of these cards.

It _is_ "simple supply and demand", agreed. But the fact that WW
seems willing to reprint them is a misunderstanding of supply and
demand. They still cost money. The singles market for booster
rares doesn't care whether WW will reprint a booster or not. It
cares whether the customer can get his single by some other means.
The service the singles dealers provide is breaking open packs and
selling individual cards that a player would otherwise require a
larger sum of money to find. This works perfectly well with
precons, too - or would if the precon packs contained a sufficient
number of sellable cards.

> Funny enough, if the starters were *more* expensive, it might become
> more profitable to break them up, because it would become prohibitive
> to get 4x Rabbat (or whoever) a $15 per starter, but not to spend $8
> each on them singly.

Nope. Although Rabbats would be worth more money then, the other cards
in the pack would not support a seller receiving any profit for the
price he'd have to pay for the packs. You're going the wrong direction.
If the starters were _less_ expensive, you might create a singles
market eventually.

>> There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong or different about precons that
>> inherently makes them unworth pursing this activity except for
>> one thing: the cards they contain are not worth obtaining for the
>> price they're sold for. If they were, singles selling from them
>> on EBAY would work just fine and you'd see sellers doing that.
>
> Untrue. The cards don't have to be less than $10 worth to make this a
> less-profitable venture. Example: suppose that I can open a box of
> boosters for (say) $65 and sell the singles for (say) $100. Unless I
> can make a $40 box of starters sell for about $61.50 (and bring that
> income in just as fast) I can't make *as much* of a profit as I could
> by investing in boosters, even if the cards are worth $55 as singles
> (or $65 but don't sell fast enough to be worth it).

It's not exactly clear what you're getting at but it sounds like you're
suggesting the only factor worth considering is what is the _most_
profitable venture a singles seller could spend his time working at.
True, but only to a point. For one thing, you saturate your market
for a single service at some point and have the incentive to diversify.
That's why singles sellers generally don't stop at just cards from a
single game or even a single expansion from that single game that
happens to be the most profitable one. They diversify to whatever
extent makes the most sense given the time they have. The fact that
they pass up precons entirely all the time says something very bad
about precons.

>> The fact that it doesn't happen on EBAY proves there's no market
>> for them. The fact that there's no market proves, well, "most
>> of us" disagree with you - apparently.
>
> No, it proves there's no *secondary* market for them.

But you've shown no credible reason why there should be no secondary
market for them. I think you just assume there's some other reason
because it's never occurred to you to think about it.

> If there were *no
> market* for them, WW wouldn't be able to sell the starters.

Actually, are you even sure WW sells precons at a profit? They may
very well be considered to be an item that they need to sell to
get new players into the game - like spending money supporting a
tournament organization and giving out demo decks for free. I
don't know one way or another but I wouldn't assume WW is selling
many starters - even with the starter-only cards.

> There would be no strong secondary market for *any* cards if WW printed
> the exact same cards, but instead of putting them in boosters, split
> them up into small 30-card sets and made each set available in a box
> that gave you 1 of each rare, 3 of each uncommon, and 7 of each common.

I don't think that's necessarily true. It all depends on what the other
cards in the packages were and whether they would likely to be needed,
in absense of the rare card, by certain players. If they weren't then
there'd be no secondary market for the same reason there's no secondary
market for existing precons. (Hey! Same conditions, same result - how
'bout that?!?) But that's not the only thing way you can package cards.

I do agree that sorting randomized cards is another service singles
dealers provide and one that's only relevant to booster packs, but I
think it's far less important than you believe.

Fred
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 7:03:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"James Coupe" <james@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:KwRcqEcWfkHCFwoI@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> I can go down my local shop and buy a book of stamps. They don't turn
> up on E-bay much, though. No market for them?
>
>
> However, if I try a few card trading sites, I hit:
>
> http://xxxx/
>
> Navigate to the right bit and:
>
> The Colonel Fixed £2.00
>
> The moral of the story is: you can't find everything on E-bay.

Very good. You've found a price. But can you buy it?

Apparently, you don't shop singles sellers much. You have to go
query them to see if they actually have the card. Frequently, if
it's a difficult card to get, they'll list a price but they don't
actually have it. In fact, they like it very much if you send
them a list of all your wants and they send you back a list of
what they have and you buy only those. It allows them to ignore the
in-demand (and possibly underpriced things) they advertised having
and sell you just the stuff you could have easily traded for anyway.

Many singles sellers will compulsively list a price for every card
in an expansion whether they have one or not. Another nice thing
about this is that it allows them to stoke interest if they *don't*
actually have a gem - it allows them to list a low price for it
without having to care about its true value.

Mind you, I have not contacted this place and have no idea whether
they have starter-only cards nor do I have any idea that this
particular seller deliberately engages in such evil practices. I
just know that many do. I gave up on non-EBAY singles stores
years ago for just this reason, once EBAY started operating.
Basically, I believe you're wrong. Starter-only cards are more
likely to be on EBAY as anywhere. Even commons get bought and
sold - in quantity - on EBAY. Starter-only card are certainly
not missing because they have a too-common quality like postage
stamps.

Fred
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 12:33:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <T4rTd.14298$ds.8399@okepread07>, Frederick Scott
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> writes:
>Apples to oranges. Final Nights was expansion that took place years
>ago - and during the comparable period of time, you _could_ find
>Ur-Shulgi during the comparable periord of time.

http://www.ccgs.co.uk/

Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd Rare £10.00

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 8:49:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:vMoTd.14292$ds.1997@okepread07...
>
> <jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
> news:1109258975.816090.33480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> None the less, you're clearly nitpicking about this - or perhaps it's
>>> you who is failing to absorb the point. The point is that starter-only
>>> cards are MUCH harder to find (basically impossible, IME) for sale even
>>> when recently printed.
>>
>> You mean, they're hard to find *on ebay* or otherwise sold as singles.
>> They are, in fact, *ridiculously easy* to find in a starter deck.
>
> Ahhh, sure. There're ridiculously easy to find where they are. Seems
> like a bit of a tautology to me but if it spins your buttons to make
> that point, go to town.
>
> Fred
>


http://www.livedeal.com/browse?user=vtes

Raille
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 8:57:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:T4rTd.14298$ds.8399@okepread07...
>
> <jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
> news:1109275526.619085.95100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Frederick Scott wrote:
>>> > Ok... what was *your* point then?

> Nope. Although Rabbats would be worth more money then, the other cards
> in the pack would not support a seller receiving any profit for the
> price he'd have to pay for the packs. You're going the wrong direction.
> If the starters were _less_ expensive, you might create a singles
> market eventually.


So your advocating that zero cost cards would have the highest
resale value.

Seems like you failed Econ 101.

Just imagine, Precons for for free! The resale of the Precon only cards
would Soar to unimaginable heights!

or not



Raille
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 12:04:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:10:35 -0700, "Frederick Scott"
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:

>
><jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
>news:1109258975.816090.33480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> None the less, you're clearly nitpicking about this - or perhaps it's
>>> you who is failing to absorb the point. The point is that starter-only
>>> cards are MUCH harder to find (basically impossible, IME) for sale even
>>> when recently printed.
>>
>> You mean, they're hard to find *on ebay* or otherwise sold as singles.
>> They are, in fact, *ridiculously easy* to find in a starter deck.
>
>Ahhh, sure. There're ridiculously easy to find where they are. Seems
>like a bit of a tautology to me but if it spins your buttons to make
>that point, go to town.

Just as a commentary, I'll quite happily trade Tock, or Eddie Gaines,
or any of the vampires (PreCon only or not) from KMW, for Maxwell or
Tyler from the Camarilla boosters. Because I can guarantee for $10US,
that I can provide the required vampire. Whereas our group has opened
3 boxes of Cam, and we've gotten one Maxwell (which I didn't get), and
no Tylers.

Precons guarantee I get a vampire. Boosters don't.

Morgan Vening
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 2:04:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1109329042.4f74407c18aad87b0c994ee4804f8e39@teranews...
>
> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:T4rTd.14298$ds.8399@okepread07...
>>
>> <jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1109275526.619085.95100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Frederick Scott wrote:
>>>> > Ok... what was *your* point then?
>
>> Nope. Although Rabbats would be worth more money then, the other cards
>> in the pack would not support a seller receiving any profit for the
>> price he'd have to pay for the packs. You're going the wrong direction.
>> If the starters were _less_ expensive, you might create a singles
>> market eventually.
>
> So your advocating that zero cost cards would have the highest
> resale value.

No.

> Seems like you failed Econ 101.

Nope. Seems like you're putting words in my mouth I didn't say.

Fred
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 8:57:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:MMJTd.14332$ds.12619@okepread07...
>
> "Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1109329042.4f74407c18aad87b0c994ee4804f8e39@teranews...
>>
>> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>> news:T4rTd.14298$ds.8399@okepread07...
>>>
>>> <jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1109275526.619085.95100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>> Frederick Scott wrote:
>>>>> > Ok... what was *your* point then?
>>
>>> Nope. Although Rabbats would be worth more money then, the other cards
>>> in the pack would not support a seller receiving any profit for the
>>> price he'd have to pay for the packs. You're going the wrong direction.
>>> If the starters were _less_ expensive, you might create a singles
>>> market eventually.
>>
>> So your advocating that zero cost cards would have the highest
>> resale value.
>
> No.
>
>> Seems like you failed Econ 101.
>
> Nope. Seems like you're putting words in my mouth I didn't say.
>
> Fred


Seems to me that a Frederick Scott said:
If the starters were less expensive, you might create a singles market
eventually.

Guess you need more than Econ 101.

Raille
at least I can follow a thread
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 8:57:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1109372238.8e36f91c249c963b95b91473b5a75c40@teranews...
>
> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:MMJTd.14332$ds.12619@okepread07...
>>
>> "Raille" <raille@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1109329042.4f74407c18aad87b0c994ee4804f8e39@teranews...
>>>
>>> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>>> news:T4rTd.14298$ds.8399@okepread07...
>>>>
>>>> <jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1109275526.619085.95100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> Frederick Scott wrote:
>>>>>> > Ok... what was *your* point then?
>>>
>>>> Nope. Although Rabbats would be worth more money then, the other cards
>>>> in the pack would not support a seller receiving any profit for the
>>>> price he'd have to pay for the packs. You're going the wrong direction.
>>>> If the starters were _less_ expensive, you might create a singles
>>>> market eventually.
>>>
>>> So your advocating that zero cost cards would have the highest
>>> resale value.
>>
>> No.
>>
>>> Seems like you failed Econ 101.
>>
>> Nope. Seems like you're putting words in my mouth I didn't say.
>
> Seems to me that a Frederick Scott said:
> If the starters were less expensive, you might create a singles market
> eventually.

Which is not the same as "So your advocating that zero cost cards would
have the highest resale value." So I fail to see your point.

> Guess you need more than Econ 101.
>
> Raille
> at least I can follow a thread

I don't think you're following this thread.

Fred
Anonymous
March 1, 2005 2:04:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message news:1109650326.112721.64730@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> Irrelevant. Indeterminant is not synonymous with infinite.
....
>
> There's a danger of this happening no matter WHAT is in the precon.
> Because, after enough of the precons have sold, those cards have
> already saturated the market.
....
>> At least the first box or two, you're guranteed
>> to need a very large percentage of the other booster cards.
>
> Only if you buy a load of boosters.
....

(etc, etc.)

OK, look - this has gone on long enough that it seems to me to be
mostly pattern and talking in circles and not much new light on the
issue. I think some of your responses to my way of looking at the
situation are flawed and when I point out the flaws, I only get more
flawed reasoning in response. It's likely you see it the same way in
reverse, so I doubt we're going to find much more concurrence on
these issues than what has already been acheived - which I appreciate,
by the way.

Well, OK, there actually might have been more interesting discussion
to wrangle from a few of those disputes, but I'm tiring of the issue
and want to go on to other things in the newsgroup. But thanks for
the responses even so. A lot of the discussion has been very
fascinating and thoughtful.

Fred
!