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Lots of KMW Rules Questions

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Anonymous
February 23, 2005 6:45:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

#1. Benedict Giovanni, Agent (grupo 4)
Giovanni (Uncommon)
Capacity: 6
[FOR] [POT] [cel] [dom] [nec]
Independent: During your untap phase, any Giovanni older than the
oldest ready Giovanni you control can burn 1 blood to take control of
Benedict. Benedict cannot block undirected actions.



Am I correct in assuming that the "taking control" of Benedict is
permanent? Since no length of time is mentioned, I'm guessing it is
permanent (or at least until control is stolen again).



#2. Scalpel Tongue
Action Modifier/Reaction (Common)
Celerity/Presence
Costs: 1 Blood
Only usable during a referendum.
[cel] Choose a vampire who has cast one or more votes in this
referendum. The chosen vampire is tapped and abstains during this
referendum (this cancel's that vampire's votes).
[CEL] As above, and the chosen vampire burns 1 blood.



Am I correct in reading that you can choose *any* vampire who has cast
a vote (unlike Telepathic Vote Counting, Under the Skin, and Kindred
Manipulation which all require a *younger* vampire)? Just wanted to
make sure that Mazz can indeed tap and cancel the votes of Gwendolyn.



#3. Just checking that since card text does not specify otherwise, both
Fatuus Mastery and Soul Decoration are stackable. Right?

If so, then stack a few Fatuus Masteries and you can play Sensory
Deprivation every turn at no cost! Alternatively, obtain multiple Soul
Decorations and no one will be able to block you with Auspex. Kinda
harsh when you can freely cancel 2 or 3 Auspex cards each time you act!



#4. Deviki Prasanta
Ally (Rare)
Assamite
Unique ghoul with 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
If Deviki is ready during your master phase, you may tap Deviki to
search your library or ash heap for a master: Discipline card and place
that card on a ready Assamite you control.



Since you place the card on the Assamite (which differs from "playing"
the card), I assume that you can give a vampire a discipline he already
has at superior just for the capacity increase? For example, give
Harika 10 Quietus skill cards to give her super-duper Quietus and
capacity 13?



#5. Dis Pater
Master (Rare)
Giovanni
Unique master.
Put this card in play. Once each action, when a Giovanni you control
successfully bleeds your prey, you may remove seven cards in your ash
heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed



Since using the ability requires "successfully bleeding your prey," am
I correct in assuming it has a similar timing window as Spying Mission,
and thus one cannot Deflect or Telepathically Misdirect when Dis Pater
is used (since it would be too late)?



#6. Sudario Refraction
Action (Rare)
Giovanni
+1 stealth action.
Choose three cards in your ash heap and move them to the top of your
library. Then, discard three cards at random from your hand (and draw
up to your hand size afterward).



Is the "and draw up to your hand size afterward" an instruction or
simply reminder text? For example, if Meddling of Semsith is in play
targeting you and you play Sudario Refraction, would the directive to
"draw up to your hand size" override the Meddling effect? Or is it just
reminder text?



#7. Bujo
Political Action (Rare)
Ravnos
+1 stealth political action.
Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap. Call
the referendum given on that card (this Ravnos must meet the
requirements of that political action, if any) and remove that card
from the game. This vampire gains 3 additional votes in this
referendum.



What happens if you play a Bujo, choosing another Bujo? The Bujo is a
political action card but has no referendum on the card.



#8. Inquisition
Action (Starter Gangrel antitribu)
Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. +1 stealth action.
(D) Choose one or more bishops. Each of the chosen bishops loses his or
her title and takes 2 unpreventable damage. The controllers of the
chosen bishops may attempt to block in addition to the normally
eligible blockers.



This odd cards seems to play havoc with standard targeting rules.
Previous precedent seems to have ruled that if an action has multiple
targets controlled by different Methusalehs, then the action is
undirected. For example, using Mehemet's special on a vampire and
discipline card both controlled by your prey is directed. But using his
special on a vampire controlled by your prey and a discipline card
controlled by your predator makes the action undirected.

Inquisition has a "(D)" sign. But since you can choose multiple bishops
controlled by different players, does this make it a (D) action
targeting every other Methusaleh who controls a minion you have chosen
or just an undirected action (the clause allowing additional blockers
seems to imply this)? This may be especially important for cards like
inferior Sonar and Warnings Signs which only work on directed actions.

Based on the previous Mehemet precedent, I would argue that if you play
Inquisition on a bishop controlled by your grandprey and a bishop
controlled by your grandpredator, then the action is an *undirected*
action that your grandprey, grandpredator, predator, and prey can all
attempt to block. Correct?



#9. Anarch Secession (grupo 4)
Action (Rare)
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-anarch, titled vampire.
Put an anarch counter on this acting vampire. This vampire becomes
anarch (and Independent). If he or she had a city title, he or she
becomes the baron of the same city as his or her previous title.
Minions without titles cannot block this action. Burn the anarch
counter if this vampire changes sects.



Currently, the only "city titles" are Prince, Archbishop, and Baron.
(Though Barons cannot play Anarch Secession). Correct?



#10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
Master (Rare)
Cost: 4 pool.
Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a
ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from the
blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can gain
blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.



If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood, then I
assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure (clockwise
from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to use
it before the player's predator can, correct?



#11. Not to Be
Master (Rare)
Cost: 1 pool
Master: out-of-turn.
Cancel an event card as it is played (no cost is paid). Put this card
in play. During your master phase, you get one additional master phase
action. During your discard phase, you get one fewer discard phase
action, and this card is burned.



If a player manages to gain control of multiple Not to Be's, what
happens if he has a negative number of discard phase actions? For
example, a player controls 3 Not to Be's. During his discard phase, he
would have -2 discard phase actions. Also, if he then taps Powerbase:
Los Angeles to gain a discard phase action, does he get to use it or is
it instantly eaten up by one of the Not to Be's?




#12. Threestar Cab Company
Master (Starter Anathema)
Cost: 3 pool.
Master: unique location. Hunting Ground.
Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card
to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can only gain
blood from one Hunting Ground card each turn.



You can use the Church of the Order of St. Blaise on Threestar Cab
Company, right?



#13. Trophy: Clan Respect
Master (Rare)
Master. Trophy.
When this card enters play, choose a clan. Vampires of the chosen clan
cannot block the vampire with this card.



If Ventrue is chosen as the Trophy Clan, Sonja Blue can still attempt
to block right? (Since she would be blocking as an ally and not as a
member of the chosen clan).




#14. Sonja Blue (grupo 4)
Ventrue (Uncommon)
Capacity: 5
[CEL] [FOR] [dom] [pot]
Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in
your influence phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D)
action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat).
During your prey's discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to move
Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove her from
the game.



If Sonja Blue "blocks as an ally" when Caiaphas Smith is acting, what
happens? Does the world explode?



And finally, not exactly a new KMW card but...


#15. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage [Gehenna:R]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master. unique location.
When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage
counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be
diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move X
blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is the
number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to
burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all
hostage counters if this card leaves play.



Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?




Okay, that's about it for now. I look forward to reading the answers!
;) 



With regards,
Eric Chiang
February 23, 2005 7:17:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
> #1. Benedict Giovanni, Agent (grupo 4)
> Giovanni (Uncommon)
> Capacity: 6
> [FOR] [POT] [cel] [dom] [nec]
> Independent: During your untap phase, any Giovanni older than the
> oldest ready Giovanni you control can burn 1 blood to take control of
> Benedict. Benedict cannot block undirected actions.
>
> Am I correct in assuming that the "taking control" of Benedict is
> permanent? Since no length of time is mentioned, I'm guessing it is
> permanent (or at least until control is stolen again).


yes...


> #2. Scalpel Tongue
> Action Modifier/Reaction (Common)
> Celerity/Presence
> Costs: 1 Blood
> Only usable during a referendum.
> [cel] Choose a vampire who has cast one or more votes in this
> referendum. The chosen vampire is tapped and abstains during this
> referendum (this cancel's that vampire's votes).
> [CEL] As above, and the chosen vampire burns 1 blood.
>
> Am I correct in reading that you can choose *any* vampire who has
cast
> a vote (unlike Telepathic Vote Counting, Under the Skin, and Kindred
> Manipulation which all require a *younger* vampire)? Just wanted to
> make sure that Mazz can indeed tap and cancel the votes of Gwendolyn.

yes...


> #3. Just checking that since card text does not specify otherwise,
both
> Fatuus Mastery and Soul Decoration are stackable. Right?

yes...


> If so, then stack a few Fatuus Masteries and you can play Sensory
> Deprivation every turn at no cost! Alternatively, obtain multiple
Soul
> Decorations and no one will be able to block you with Auspex. Kinda
> harsh when you can freely cancel 2 or 3 Auspex cards each time you
act!


yes. cyscek is the king...


> #4. Deviki Prasanta
> Ally (Rare)
> Assamite
> Unique ghoul with 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
> If Deviki is ready during your master phase, you may tap Deviki to
> search your library or ash heap for a master: Discipline card and
place
> that card on a ready Assamite you control.
>
> Since you place the card on the Assamite (which differs from
"playing"
> the card), I assume that you can give a vampire a discipline he
already
> has at superior just for the capacity increase? For example, give
> Harika 10 Quietus skill cards to give her super-duper Quietus and
> capacity 13?


no. 'Cannot be placed on a vampire with superior X' its placed. not
played...



> #5. Dis Pater
> Master (Rare)
> Giovanni
> Unique master.
> Put this card in play. Once each action, when a Giovanni you control
> successfully bleeds your prey, you may remove seven cards in your ash
> heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed
>
> Since using the ability requires "successfully bleeding your prey,"
am
> I correct in assuming it has a similar timing window as Spying
Mission,
> and thus one cannot Deflect or Telepathically Misdirect when Dis
Pater
> is used (since it would be too late)?


yes...



> #6. Sudario Refraction
> Action (Rare)
> Giovanni
> +1 stealth action.
> Choose three cards in your ash heap and move them to the top of your
> library. Then, discard three cards at random from your hand (and draw
> up to your hand size afterward).
>
> Is the "and draw up to your hand size afterward" an instruction or
> simply reminder text? For example, if Meddling of Semsith is in play
> targeting you and you play Sudario Refraction, would the directive to
> "draw up to your hand size" override the Meddling effect? Or is it
just
> reminder text?


you draw up to your hand size...


> #7. Bujo
> Political Action (Rare)
> Ravnos
> +1 stealth political action.
> Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap. Call
> the referendum given on that card (this Ravnos must meet the
> requirements of that political action, if any) and remove that card
> from the game. This vampire gains 3 additional votes in this
> referendum.
>
> What happens if you play a Bujo, choosing another Bujo? The Bujo is a
> political action card but has no referendum on the card.


you cannot target another buju (since it doesnt have a referendum)...



> #8. Inquisition
> Action (Starter Gangrel antitribu)
> Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. +1 stealth action.
> (D) Choose one or more bishops. Each of the chosen bishops loses his
or
> her title and takes 2 unpreventable damage. The controllers of the
> chosen bishops may attempt to block in addition to the normally
> eligible blockers.
>
> This odd cards seems to play havoc with standard targeting rules.
> Previous precedent seems to have ruled that if an action has multiple
> targets controlled by different Methusalehs, then the action is
> undirected. For example, using Mehemet's special on a vampire and
> discipline card both controlled by your prey is directed. But using
his
> special on a vampire controlled by your prey and a discipline card
> controlled by your predator makes the action undirected.
>
> Inquisition has a "(D)" sign. But since you can choose multiple
bishops
> controlled by different players, does this make it a (D) action
> targeting every other Methusaleh who controls a minion you have
chosen
> or just an undirected action (the clause allowing additional blockers
> seems to imply this)? This may be especially important for cards like
> inferior Sonar and Warnings Signs which only work on directed
actions.
>
> Based on the previous Mehemet precedent, I would argue that if you
play
> Inquisition on a bishop controlled by your grandprey and a bishop
> controlled by your grandpredator, then the action is an *undirected*
> action that your grandprey, grandpredator, predator, and prey can all
> attempt to block. Correct?


its a D action against the metuselahs with the target bishops...


> #9. Anarch Secession (grupo 4)
> Action (Rare)
> +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-anarch, titled vampire.
> Put an anarch counter on this acting vampire. This vampire becomes
> anarch (and Independent). If he or she had a city title, he or she
> becomes the baron of the same city as his or her previous title.
> Minions without titles cannot block this action. Burn the anarch
> counter if this vampire changes sects.
>
> Currently, the only "city titles" are Prince, Archbishop, and Baron.
> (Though Barons cannot play Anarch Secession). Correct?

yes. just read above ( Requires a ready non-anarch )...


> #10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
> Master (Rare)
> Cost: 4 pool.
> Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
> During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to
a
> ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
> during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from
the
> blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can gain
> blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>
> If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood, then
I
> assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure
(clockwise
> from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to
use
> it before the player's predator can, correct?


no. each (other) metuselah decides in his/her untapphases if he wants
to pay the pool (if it is still untapped by then)...



> #11. Not to Be
> Master (Rare)
> Cost: 1 pool
> Master: out-of-turn.
> Cancel an event card as it is played (no cost is paid). Put this card
> in play. During your master phase, you get one additional master
phase
> action. During your discard phase, you get one fewer discard phase
> action, and this card is burned.
>
> If a player manages to gain control of multiple Not to Be's, what
> happens if he has a negative number of discard phase actions? For
> example, a player controls 3 Not to Be's. During his discard phase,
he
> would have -2 discard phase actions. Also, if he then taps Powerbase:
> Los Angeles to gain a discard phase action, does he get to use it or
is
> it instantly eaten up by one of the Not to Be's?


a metuselah can only play one out of turn card untill his next master
phase so this should never happen. but if a metuselah should get a
negative number of DpA he just has none...


> #12. Threestar Cab Company
> Master (Starter Anathema)
> Cost: 3 pool.
> Master: unique location. Hunting Ground.
> Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
> this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card
> to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can only
gain
> blood from one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>
> You can use the Church of the Order of St. Blaise on Threestar Cab
> Company, right?

yes...



> #13. Trophy: Clan Respect
> Master (Rare)
> Master. Trophy.
> When this card enters play, choose a clan. Vampires of the chosen
clan
> cannot block the vampire with this card.
>
> If Ventrue is chosen as the Trophy Clan, Sonja Blue can still attempt
> to block right? (Since she would be blocking as an ally and not as a
> member of the chosen clan).


yes. she could...



>
> #14. Sonja Blue (grupo 4)
> Ventrue (Uncommon)
> Capacity: 5
> [CEL] [FOR] [dom] [pot]
> Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in
> your influence phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D)
> action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat).
> During your prey's discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to
move
> Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove her
from
> the game.
>
> If Sonja Blue "blocks as an ally" when Caiaphas Smith is acting, what
> happens? Does the world explode?


no. if she blocked as an ally she doesnt 'explode' at the end...



> #15. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage [Gehenna:R]
> Cardtype: Master
> Cost: 1 pool
> Master. unique location.
> When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage
> counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be
> diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move
X
> blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is
the
> number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to
> burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all
> hostage counters if this card leaves play.
>
> Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
> Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
> or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region
by
> Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
> uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
> influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says
that
> the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
> remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled
region?


he remains a hostage untill the card leaves play...



denis
February 23, 2005 7:44:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Aah, counters-n-things become out-of-play when a minion is banished,
etc. Forgot that. What becomes of the hostage counter when it
reenters
play? VOOMPH!!! (gone?) or still there. Though I suppose that's
academic
since it doesn't do anything on a ready minion and he'd get another
counter when going back into torpor if CMPaS is still there. (If CMPaS

has been burned, the counter would certainly be burnt as well at that
time, if not before.)


still there but as noted since the minion is already in the ready
region it has no effect...until the vampire leaves ready region again
(e.g. torpor) then the hostage counter takes effect again (even if he
doesnt get a new one)...
Related resources
February 23, 2005 8:01:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> #10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
> Master (Rare)
> Cost: 4 pool.
> Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
> During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to
a
> ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
> during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from
the
> blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can gain
> blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.

> If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood, then
I
> assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure
(clockwise
> from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to
use
> it before the player's predator can, correct?



> 1.6.1.6 resolves "simultaneous" issues, yes.


?

theres always only one metuselah who can give you a pool in his/her
untapphase at a time (because in his turn he only gets the choice and
noone else [if its not tapped])...
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 8:19:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<echiang777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109202320.217775.131180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> #3. Just checking that since card text does not specify otherwise, both
> Fatuus Mastery and Soul Decoration are stackable. Right?
>
> If so, then stack a few Fatuus Masteries and you can play Sensory
> Deprivation every turn at no cost! Alternatively, obtain multiple Soul
> Decorations and no one will be able to block you with Auspex. Kinda
> harsh when you can freely cancel 2 or 3 Auspex cards each time you act!

I think you underestimate the cost of taking an action. If a Ravnos sets
himself up with three Soul Decorations, he deserves to thereby be pretty
difficult to stop. Besides, the card has distinct limitations to it.
The Sensory-Dep-per-turn thing doesn't bother me either - not after the
Ravnos has taken three successful actions to set it up.

> #10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
> Master (Rare)
> Cost: 4 pool.
> Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
> During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a
> ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
> during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from the
> blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can gain
> blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>
> If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood, then I
> assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure (clockwise
> from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to use
> it before the player's predator can, correct?

IANLSJ but I think I can answer this one:
Well, yes, but not for the reason you give. Only one Methuselah at a time
can "give you a pool during his or her untap phase...". So your predator
can only give you pool on your predator's untap phase, not your prey's
untap phase - and then only if your prey (or grandprey or grandpredator)
has not already given you pool and thus tapped KPO.

My comment on this one:
> #15. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage [Gehenna:R]
> Cardtype: Master
> Cost: 1 pool
> Master. unique location.
> When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage
> counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be
> diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move X
> blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is the
> number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to
> burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all
> hostage counters if this card leaves play.
>
> Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
> Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
> or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
> Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
> uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
> influenced out again?

I would speculate that the hostage could not be influenced out again. It
still has an unremoved hostage counter on it. One question would be
whether the hostage counter could be removed from a minion in the
unconstrolled area. My guess would be, "Why not?". The hostage counter
doesn't seem to care whether the hostage is actually in torpor except for
one purpose: how much blood the recipient gets when tapping CMPaS.

Fred
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 8:31:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"denis" <inomine@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:1109204269.013333.126300@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> #15. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage [Gehenna:R]
>> Cardtype: Master
>> Cost: 1 pool
>> Master. unique location.
>> When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage
>> counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be
>> diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move
>> X blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is
>> the number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to
>> burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all
>> hostage counters if this card leaves play.
>>
>> Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
>> Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
>> or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region
>> by Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
>> uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
>> influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says
>> that the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
>> remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled
>> region?
>
> he remains a hostage untill the card leaves play...

(YRNLSJ so the the debate is really academic. But I'm curious:) 
What makes you think the hostage counter could not be removed normally
from a vampire in the uncontrolled region? Uncontrolled != out-of-play.

Fred
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 8:54:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"denis" <inomine@gmx.net> wrote in message news:1109205874.025117.315850@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Aah, counters-n-things become out-of-play when a minion is banished,
>> etc. Forgot that. What becomes of the hostage counter when it
>> reenters play? VOOMPH!!! (gone?) or still there. Though I suppose
>> that's academic since it doesn't do anything on a ready minion and
>> he'd get another counter when going back into torpor if CMPaS is
>> still there. (If CMPaS has been burned, the counter would certainly
>> be burnt as well at that time, if not before.)
>
> still there but as noted since the minion is already in the ready
> region it has no effect...until the vampire leaves ready region again
> (e.g. torpor) then the hostage counter takes effect again (even if he
> doesnt get a new one)...

My parenthetical point was, how it could still be there unless he were
eligible to get a new one? If Carver's is still on the board, he'll
get a new hostage counter and if Carver's is not still on the board,
the hostage counter would have been burnt when it made its exit.

I did actually think of an exception in the interim: if the hostage
had been raised in capacity (e.g. with a Discipline card) in since the
last time he went into torpor.

Fred
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 10:08:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:

> Okay, that's about it for now. I look forward to reading the answers!

Wow. That is a lot of rules questions. I'm impressed. I haven't read the
cards enough yet. I haven't gotten past True Love's Kiss yet...


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 10:08:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Peter D Bakija" <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BE428526.1DBB4%pdb6@lightlink.com...
> echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Okay, that's about it for now. I look forward to reading the answers!
>
> Wow. That is a lot of rules questions. I'm impressed. I haven't read the
> cards enough yet. I haven't gotten past True Love's Kiss yet...

True Love's Face (sorry Peter, this was the closest thing I could find)
Action Modifier
[obf] +1 bleed. After playing this card, you cannot play another
action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action.
[OBJ] Only usable when a minion attempts to block. That block
fails (do not tap that minion). That minion cannot attempt to block this
action again. The controller of this minion may pay a pool to cancel
this card as it is played.

Fred (who has taken a moment to download the ELDB data file)
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 10:27:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
> #1. Benedict Giovanni, Agent (grupo 4)
> Independent: During your untap phase, any Giovanni older than the
> oldest ready Giovanni you control can burn 1 blood to take control of
> Benedict. Benedict cannot block undirected actions.
>
> Am I correct in assuming that the "taking control" of Benedict is
> permanent? Since no length of time is mentioned, I'm guessing it is
> permanent (or at least until control is stolen again).

Correct.

> #2. Scalpel Tongue
> [cel] Choose a vampire who has cast one or more votes in this
> referendum. The chosen vampire is tapped and abstains during this
> referendum (this cancel's that vampire's votes).
>
> Am I correct in reading that you can choose *any* vampire who has cast
> a vote (unlike Telepathic Vote Counting, Under the Skin, and Kindred
> Manipulation which all require a *younger* vampire)? Just wanted to
> make sure that Mazz can indeed tap and cancel the votes of Gwendolyn.

Impossible to read otherwise, correct. :-)

> #3. Just checking that since card text does not specify otherwise, both
> Fatuus Mastery and Soul Decoration are stackable. Right?

Correct, all cards stack by default.

> #4. Deviki Prasanta
> Since you place the card on the Assamite (which differs from "playing"
> the card), I assume that you can give a vampire a discipline he already
> has at superior just for the capacity increase? For example, give
> Harika 10 Quietus skill cards to give her super-duper Quietus and
> capacity 13?

No. Discipline cards: "Cannot be placed on a vampire with superior"

> #5. Dis Pater
> Put this card in play. Once each action, when a Giovanni you control
> successfully bleeds your prey, you may remove seven cards in your ash
> heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed
>
> Since using the ability requires "successfully bleeding your prey," am
> I correct in assuming it has a similar timing window as Spying Mission,
> and thus one cannot Deflect or Telepathically Misdirect when Dis Pater
> is used (since it would be too late)?

Yes.

> #6. Sudario Refraction
> Is the "and draw up to your hand size afterward" an instruction or
> simply reminder text? For example, if Meddling of Semsith is in play
> targeting you and you play Sudario Refraction, would the directive to
> "draw up to your hand size" override the Meddling effect? Or is it just
> reminder text?

Reminder text.

> #7. Bujo
> Political Action (Rare)
> Ravnos
> +1 stealth political action.
> Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap. Call
> the referendum given on that card (this Ravnos must meet the
> requirements of that political action, if any) and remove that card
> from the game. This vampire gains 3 additional votes in this
> referendum.
>
> What happens if you play a Bujo, choosing another Bujo? The Bujo is a
> political action card but has no referendum on the card.

Cannot choose Bujo. Bujo is an action card, like Charming Lobby.
(The text cited above is incorrect as to the card type.)

> #8. Inquisition
> Action (Starter Gangrel antitribu)
> Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. +1 stealth action.
> (D) Choose one or more bishops. Each of the chosen bishops loses his or
> her title and takes 2 unpreventable damage. The controllers of the
> chosen bishops may attempt to block in addition to the normally
> eligible blockers.
>
> This odd cards seems to play havoc with standard targeting rules.
> Previous precedent seems to have ruled that if an action has multiple
> targets controlled by different Methusalehs, then the action is
> undirected. For example, using Mehemet's special on a vampire and

That is still the case, by the rules.

> discipline card both controlled by your prey is directed. But using his
> special on a vampire controlled by your prey and a discipline card
> controlled by your predator makes the action undirected.
>
> Inquisition has a "(D)" sign. But since you can choose multiple bishops

Since it is typically directed, it gets the (D) sign, yes.

> controlled by different players, does this make it a (D) action
> targeting every other Methusaleh who controls a minion you have chosen
> or just an undirected action (the clause allowing additional blockers
> seems to imply this)? This may be especially important for cards like
> inferior Sonar and Warnings Signs which only work on directed actions.

As with all (D) actions, the (D) symbol itself is immaterial --
the action is directed or not based on the target(s) chosen.

> Based on the previous Mehemet precedent, I would argue that if you play
> Inquisition on a bishop controlled by your grandprey and a bishop
> controlled by your grandpredator, then the action is an *undirected*
> action that your grandprey, grandpredator, predator, and prey can all
> attempt to block. Correct?

Of course.

> #9. Anarch Secession (grupo 4)
> Currently, the only "city titles" are Prince, Archbishop, and Baron.
> (Though Barons cannot play Anarch Secession). Correct?

?
Yes.

> #10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
> Master (Rare)
> Cost: 4 pool.
> Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
> During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a
> ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
> during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from the
> blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can gain
> blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>
> If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood, then I
> assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure (clockwise
> from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to use
> it before the player's predator can, correct?

1.6.1.6 resolves "simultaneous" issues, yes.

> #11. Not to Be
> Master (Rare)
> Cost: 1 pool
> Master: out-of-turn.
> Cancel an event card as it is played (no cost is paid). Put this card
> in play. During your master phase, you get one additional master phase
> action. During your discard phase, you get one fewer discard phase
> action, and this card is burned.
>
> If a player manages to gain control of multiple Not to Be's, what
> happens if he has a negative number of discard phase actions? For

He doesn't get to discard.

> example, a player controls 3 Not to Be's. During his discard phase, he
> would have -2 discard phase actions. Also, if he then taps Powerbase:
> Los Angeles to gain a discard phase action, does he get to use it or is
> it instantly eaten up by one of the Not to Be's?

Eaten up.

Like adding +1 strength to a -2 strength minion.
He still hits for no damage.

> #12. Threestar Cab Company
> Master (Starter Anathema)
> Cost: 3 pool.
> Master: unique location. Hunting Ground.
> Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
> this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card
> to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can only gain
> blood from one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>
> You can use the Church of the Order of St. Blaise on Threestar Cab
> Company, right?

It is a location that uses counters.

> #13. Trophy: Clan Respect
> Master (Rare)
> Master. Trophy.
> When this card enters play, choose a clan. Vampires of the chosen clan
> cannot block the vampire with this card.
>
> If Ventrue is chosen as the Trophy Clan, Sonja Blue can still attempt
> to block right? (Since she would be blocking as an ally and not as a
> member of the chosen clan).

Correct. Allies are not Ventrue.

> #14. Sonja Blue (grupo 4)
> Ventrue (Uncommon)
> Capacity: 5
> [CEL] [FOR] [dom] [pot]
> Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in
> your influence phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D)
> action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat).
> During your prey's discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to move
> Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove her from
> the game.
>
> If Sonja Blue "blocks as an ally" when Caiaphas Smith is acting, what
> happens? Does the world explode?

No. Combat occurs. The Jyhad goes on.

> And finally, not exactly a new KMW card but...
>
> #15. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage [Gehenna:R]
> Cardtype: Master
> Cost: 1 pool
> Master. unique location.
> When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage
> counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be
> diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move X
> blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is the
> number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to
> burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all
> hostage counters if this card leaves play.
>
> Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
> Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
> or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
> Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
> uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
> influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
> the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
> remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?

The hostage counter is out of play, so the vampire is not a Hostage
until he becomes controlled again. He'll already be in the ready
region at that time.

Banishment is not an option, by card text ("ready").
Peace of K. will work, though.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 10:27:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:cvj70q$ptf$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
>> #15. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage [Gehenna:R]
....
>> Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
>> Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
>> or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
>> Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
>> uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
>> influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
>> the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
>> remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?
>
> The hostage counter is out of play, so the vampire is not a Hostage
> until he becomes controlled again. He'll already be in the ready
> region at that time.

Aah, counters-n-things become out-of-play when a minion is banished,
etc. Forgot that. What becomes of the hostage counter when it reenters
play? VOOMPH!!! (gone?) or still there. Though I suppose that's academic
since it doesn't do anything on a ready minion and he'd get another
counter when going back into torpor if CMPaS is still there. (If CMPaS
has been burned, the counter would certainly be burnt as well at that
time, if not before.)

Fred
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 10:41:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> (YRNLSJ so the the debate is really academic. But I'm curious:) 
> What makes you think the hostage counter could not be removed normally
> from a vampire in the uncontrolled region? Uncontrolled != out-of-play.

Because uncontrolled == out-of-play unless explicitly stated
otherwise.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 2:55:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > #7. Bujo
> > Political Action (Rare)
> > Ravnos
> > +1 stealth political action.
> > Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap.
Call
> > the referendum given on that card (this Ravnos must meet the
> > requirements of that political action, if any) and remove that card
> > from the game. This vampire gains 3 additional votes in this
> > referendum.
> >
> > What happens if you play a Bujo, choosing another Bujo? The Bujo is
a
> > political action card but has no referendum on the card.
>
> Cannot choose Bujo. Bujo is an action card, like Charming Lobby.
> (The text cited above is incorrect as to the card type.)

???

OK, I do not have either of those cards in front of me, but the card
list on WW's web site clearly states "political action" as part of the
card text for Charming Lobby.

For Bujo, I find the same card text in the (as yet non-official) ELDB
update.

I think I get your meaning (the card type for both is just "Action"),
but this seems to be a possible source of confusion to me.

Hardy Range
Prince of Bocum, Germany
http://www.vekn.de
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 9:39:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Personally, I think I prefer the Kingston Penitentiary over both. Not
only does it allow your "allies" to give you pool, but even your prey
might be giving you pool if you take yourself down too low by paying
the 4 pool to put it in play. As long as you have some small amount of
vote defense and enough pool to survive a couple of turns...
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 10:06:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
> > #14. Sonja Blue (grupo 4)
> > Ventrue (Uncommon)
> > Capacity: 5
> > [CEL] [FOR] [dom] [pot]
> > Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in
> > your influence phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D)
> > action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat).
> > During your prey's discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to
move
> > Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove her
from
> > the game.

If Sonja Blue is blocking as an ally, can she play reaction cards that
require disciplines?

Must Sonja Blue declare when she first announces a block attempt
whether she is blocking as an ally or a vampire, or can she change her
mind during a block attempt?

If Sonja fails to block as a vampire or as an ally, can she then
attempt to block as the other?
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 11:05:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> "Emmit Svenson" <emmitsvenson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > Must Sonja Blue declare when she first announces a block attempt
> > whether she is blocking as an ally or a vampire, or can she change
her
> > mind during a block attempt?
>
> Assume she's blocking as whatever is appropriate (ally during a
> Day Operation or if Caiaphas is acting, vampire if a vampire
> with Sacre Cour is acting, etc.)
>
> If the information is needed, ask.

Asking before playing Bear Baiting kind of kills the surprise, but OK.

Actually, I take that back. Bear Baiting is always a surprise.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 11:10:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> > If Sonja fails to block as a vampire or as an ally, can she then
> > attempt to block as the other?
>
> Any minion who fails to block is free to try again.

Unless the block failed due to (say) Psychomachia, right? So if Sargon
acted, and Sonya blocks as an ally, and Sargon can then play
psychomachia (ally or younger vampire), she can't attempt to block as a
vampire (even though she's not a younger vampire), right?

John
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 11:36:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:27:04 -0500, LSJ
<vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote:

>echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:

>> #7. Bujo
>> Political Action (Rare)
>> Ravnos
>> +1 stealth political action.
>> Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap. Call
>> the referendum given on that card (this Ravnos must meet the
>> requirements of that political action, if any) and remove that card
>> from the game. This vampire gains 3 additional votes in this
>> referendum.
>>
>> What happens if you play a Bujo, choosing another Bujo? The Bujo is a
>> political action card but has no referendum on the card.
>
>Cannot choose Bujo. Bujo is an action card, like Charming Lobby.
>(The text cited above is incorrect as to the card type.)

It circulated at WW's forums wave of spoilers this way, I think.

[corrected right now at VTES Brasil's site list of cards]

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:18:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> > #4. Deviki Prasanta
> > Since you place the card on the Assamite (which differs from
"playing"
> > the card), I assume that you can give a vampire a discipline he
already
> > has at superior just for the capacity increase? For example, give
> > Harika 10 Quietus skill cards to give her super-duper Quietus and
> > capacity 13?
>
> No. Discipline cards: "Cannot be placed on a vampire with superior"


Sorry. I was relying on not-up-to-date Monger text for discipline
cards. I was pretty sure you wouldn't be able to do it anyway (since
fetching discipline cards for diablerie is not playing it in the normal
manner and I recall that you can't fetch a discipline card you already
have at superior). But I figured it didn't hurt to doublecheck.


> > #7. Bujo
> > Political Action (Rare)
> > Ravnos
> > +1 stealth political action.
> > Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap.
Call
> > the referendum given on that card (this Ravnos must meet the
> > requirements of that political action, if any) and remove that card
> > from the game. This vampire gains 3 additional votes in this
> > referendum.
> >
> > What happens if you play a Bujo, choosing another Bujo? The Bujo is
a
> > political action card but has no referendum on the card.
>
> Cannot choose Bujo. Bujo is an action card, like Charming Lobby.
> (The text cited above is incorrect as to the card type.)


As Fabio noted, I was using spoiler text from the Brazil VTES site.

I do recall seeing the card at the pre-release and it was an action
(with the bluish action background) but I was a little confused since
the text said "+1 stealth political action". I wasn't sure if a
Political Action was determined by the card icon on the left, or if the
card text of the card took precedence. Though it seems like the former,
based on the Charming Lobby precedent. (It's an action that calls a
political action).



> > #8. Inquisition
> > Action (Starter Gangrel antitribu)
> > Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. +1 stealth action.
> > (D) Choose one or more bishops. Each of the chosen bishops loses
his or
> > her title and takes 2 unpreventable damage. The controllers of the
> > chosen bishops may attempt to block in addition to the normally
> > eligible blockers.
> >
> > Based on the previous Mehemet precedent, I would argue that if you
play
> > Inquisition on a bishop controlled by your grandprey and a bishop
> > controlled by your grandpredator, then the action is an
*undirected*
> > action that your grandprey, grandpredator, predator, and prey can
all
> > attempt to block. Correct?
>
> Of course.


That's what I was guessing. Nice to know I got that one right! =)


> > #9. Anarch Secession (grupo 4)
> > Currently, the only "city titles" are Prince, Archbishop, and
Baron.
> > (Though Barons cannot play Anarch Secession). Correct?
>
> ?
> Yes.


The main reason I was asking was to get on the record, a clear
definitive answer on what a "city title" is. (In case "city title" was
used for future purposes as well).


> > #10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
> > Master (Rare)
> > Cost: 4 pool.
> > Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
> > During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank
to a
> > ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
> > during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from
the
> > blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can
gain
> > blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.
> >
> > If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood,
then I
> > assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure
(clockwise
> > from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to
use
> > it before the player's predator can, correct?
>
> 1.6.1.6 resolves "simultaneous" issues, yes.


Oops! My bad. I misread the card regarding the timing for other
Methuselahs to give you a pool (I was seeing it as during your turn
instead of during his/her turn). My apologies.


> > #11. Not to Be
> > Master (Rare)
> > Cost: 1 pool
> > Master: out-of-turn.
> > Cancel an event card as it is played (no cost is paid). Put this
card
> > in play. During your master phase, you get one additional master
phase
> > action. During your discard phase, you get one fewer discard phase
> > action, and this card is burned.
> >
> > If a player manages to gain control of multiple Not to Be's, what
> > happens if he has a negative number of discard phase actions? For
>
> He doesn't get to discard.
>
> > example, a player controls 3 Not to Be's. During his discard phase,
he
> > would have -2 discard phase actions. Also, if he then taps
Powerbase:
> > Los Angeles to gain a discard phase action, does he get to use it
or is
> > it instantly eaten up by one of the Not to Be's?
>
> Eaten up.
>
> Like adding +1 strength to a -2 strength minion.
> He still hits for no damage.


As a pedantic note, some individuals were claiming that controlling
multiple Not to Be's is not possible. It is, though it's much more
difficult now that Succubus Club is banned.

I'm sure that LSJ must have found Succubus Club annoying since it
created all these exception scenarios (such as what happens if you give
away control if a non-equipment, non-retainer minion card that is on a
minion you control).

When Succubus Club was first banned, I was disappointed since I thought
these wacky situations would no longer be possible. (And getting
Becoming of Ennoia into play would be that much harder to put into
play). But then I remembered a rarely used gem called Malkavian Time
Auction:


Malkavian Time Auction [Jyhad:R, VTES:R]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Malkavian
Master.
Choose a card you control. Starting to your left and proceeding
clockwise, other Methuselahs may bid pool for control of that card.
Highest bidder takes control of the card. You collect pool from the two
highest bidders.



So for this scenario, what happens is multiple Methuselahs play Not to
Be on consecutive turns. During A's turn he plays an Event but player E
plays Not to Be. During B's turn he plays an Event but player A plays
Not to Be. Keep repeating this so that by the beginning of E's turn,
players E, A, B, and C each have a Not to Be in play.

During E's master phase, he plays Malkavian Time Auction to sell the
Not to Be to player C or D. The other players also use Malkavian Time
Auctions to give the Not to Be's to one player. And thus during D's
turn, he may end up controlling 4 Not to Be's and will therefore have a
negative number of discard phase actions.



Also note that Not to Be (along with Shilmulo Tarot) is bound to create
some issues when it comes to Trivia Questions like what the maximum
number of master phase actions can be. I'm thinking:

- There are currently 23 Gehenna events and 4 Government events so you
can provide up to 27 additional master phase actions with Not to Be's.
(You can use Malkavian Time Auction to give them away and Reversal of
Fortunes to make sure they all go off at once). Man would I love to see
someone with -26 discard phase actions!

- Anson/Rumors for an additional one.

- Parthenon.

- One from a trifle.

- Synesios + an OOT master (the OOT master still "counts against" your
master phase).

- Huitzilopochtli

- Cybele (Grouping rules are avoided by stealing/buying control of the
necessary vampires).

- 181 master cards played and cancelled by Rewind Times or Bleeding the
Vine. (90 from your deck, 90 from someone else's deck which you get
from Shilmulo Tarot, 1 from Erciyes Fragment).

(Throughout this, Erciyes Fragment and Madness Network may be helpful
in making this flow more smoothly).



Ideally, this could result in a total of around 215 master phsae
actions. Though in reality, the main limiting factor seems to be the
number of times the other players could play and pay for the 181 Rewind
Times. Krassimir and Nu can pay for 7 Rewind Times. TEM can be obtained
via Infernal Pact or Sanguine Instructions. Ian Forestal gaining the
Ankara Citadel and having a whole bunch of Masochisms can also pay for
a lot, though then you begin to run low on card slots.

Okay, so it's time to get off of my tangent. Anyone else enjoy this
thought exercise or would care to contribute to it? ;) 

*** Now that I think of it, you can actually play even more cards (in
addition to your library, Shilmulo Tarot, and Erciyes) with Agaitas in
play, though this still has as the limiting factor the blood to pay for
Rewind Time.





Cheers!
- Eric Chiang
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:21:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

denis wrote:
> > #11. Not to Be
> > Master (Rare)
> > Cost: 1 pool
> > Master: out-of-turn.
> > Cancel an event card as it is played (no cost is paid). Put this
card
> > in play. During your master phase, you get one additional master
> phase
> > action. During your discard phase, you get one fewer discard phase
> > action, and this card is burned.
> >
> > If a player manages to gain control of multiple Not to Be's, what
> > happens if he has a negative number of discard phase actions? For
> > example, a player controls 3 Not to Be's. During his discard phase,
> he
> > would have -2 discard phase actions. Also, if he then taps
Powerbase:
> > Los Angeles to gain a discard phase action, does he get to use it
or
> is
> > it instantly eaten up by one of the Not to Be's?
>
>
> a metuselah can only play one out of turn card untill his next master
> phase so this should never happen. but if a metuselah should get a
> negative number of DpA he just has none...


This *is* possible. See Succubus Club or Malkavian Time Auction on how
to get a player to control multiple Not to Be's.




- Eric Chiang
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:31:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> <echiang777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1109202320.217775.131180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > #3. Just checking that since card text does not specify otherwise,
both
> > Fatuus Mastery and Soul Decoration are stackable. Right?
> >
> > If so, then stack a few Fatuus Masteries and you can play Sensory
> > Deprivation every turn at no cost! Alternatively, obtain multiple
Soul
> > Decorations and no one will be able to block you with Auspex. Kinda
> > harsh when you can freely cancel 2 or 3 Auspex cards each time you
act!
>
> I think you underestimate the cost of taking an action. If a Ravnos
sets
> himself up with three Soul Decorations, he deserves to thereby be
pretty
> difficult to stop. Besides, the card has distinct limitations to it.
> The Sensory-Dep-per-turn thing doesn't bother me either - not after
the
> Ravnos has taken three successful actions to set it up.



I disagree (at least for the Ravnos case). At superior Chimerstry,
taking a Fatuus Mastery gets you a counter (which is essentially worth
a blood if you plan on playing expensive Chimerstry cards). It's pretty
much better than hunting. And every turn you get a counter for free
even if you plan on doing nothing. Since Ravnos have Fortitude as an
in-clan, you can always Freak Drive after getting a Fatuus Mastery (and
the counter you gain *essentially* pays for the Freak Drive cost. I use
"essentially" because I know it only actually works for Chimerstry
cards).

I don't think it's too hard to:

#1. Fatuus Mastery + Freak Drive + whatever else you wanted to do.

#2. Next turn, Fatuus Mastery + Freak Drive + whatever else you wanted
to do.

#3. Repeat.



Once you get two or three of these things on you, you really don't need
to worry about blood costs for the rest of the game. Throw in a Path of
Paradox for additional mileage and you'll be all set. Apparition for
free, burn 2 counters for Sensory Deprivation, burn 1 counter for
Mayaparisatya, etc.



- Eric Chiang
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:34:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

echiang...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > #7. Bujo
> > > Political Action (Rare)
> > > Ravnos
> > > +1 stealth political action.
>
> I do recall seeing the card at the pre-release and it was an action
> (with the bluish action background) but I was a little confused since
> the text said "+1 stealth political action". I wasn't sure if a
> Political Action was determined by the card icon on the left, or if
the
> card text of the card took precedence. Though it seems like the
former,
> based on the Charming Lobby precedent. (It's an action that calls a
> political action).
>
The symbol is definitely an action symbol. However, the card clearly
states "+1 stealth political action". I was under the impression that
specific card text always overrides the rulebook (which tells us that
political actions have that little dome symbol on them). If a card
tells me it's a political action, I'm inclined to believe it.

Is there new errata for Bujo?
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:55:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1109231727.757707.210890@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
HardyRange <hardy.range@gmx.de> writes:
>OK, I do not have either of those cards in front of me, but the card
>list on WW's web site clearly states "political action" as part of the
>card text for Charming Lobby.

However, it says:

Charming Lobby [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U/PTo]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Presence

i.e. it is an Action card that calls a Political Action. Unlike typical
Political Actions (e.g. KRC), it is not a Political Action card.
Scrolling down, we hit:


Code of Milan Suspended [Sabbat:R, SW:R]
Cardtype: Political Action

It's that cardtype that makes the difference.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 1:06:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

> True Love's Face (sorry Peter, this was the closest thing I could find)
> Action Modifier
> [obf] +1 bleed. After playing this card, you cannot play another
> action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action.
> [OBJ] Only usable when a minion attempts to block. That block
> fails (do not tap that minion). That minion cannot attempt to block this
> action again. The controller of this minion may pay a pool to cancel
> this card as it is played.
>
> Fred (who has taken a moment to download the ELDB data file)

Man. This is like, the third time this has happened when I made a joke about
True Love's Face. For the record, any statements I make about True Love's
Face in the future, unless highly specific, is going to be a joke based on
the girl on girl porn action on the card.

But thanks anyway :-)


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 1:19:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Thanks for all the questions, Eric. I have one of my own:

>> #10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
>> Master (Rare)
>> Cost: 4 pool.
>> Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
>> During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a
>> ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
>> during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from the
>> blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can gain
>> blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>>
>> If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood, then I
>> assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure (clockwise
>> from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to use
>> it before the player's predator can, correct?
>
> 1.6.1.6 resolves "simultaneous" issues, yes.

Why is this question relevant? In other words, how is it possible for
multiple methuselahs to want to use this thing in the same untap phase,
since it's keyed on each candidate methuselah's untap phase?

Ankur
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 1:29:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Emmit Svenson" <emmitsvenson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109257580.049453.158090@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> If Sonja Blue is blocking as an ally, can she play reaction cards that
> require disciplines?

Yes.

> Must Sonja Blue declare when she first announces a block attempt
> whether she is blocking as an ally or a vampire, or can she change her
> mind during a block attempt?

Assume she's blocking as whatever is appropriate (ally during a
Day Operation or if Caiaphas is acting, vampire if a vampire
with Sacre Cour is acting, etc.)

If the information is needed, ask.

> If Sonja fails to block as a vampire or as an ally, can she then
> attempt to block as the other?

Any minion who fails to block is free to try again.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 2:24:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hmm... I was under the impression that a card that says "Grapple" in
bold letters is a Grapple card, and a card that says "Frenzy" in bold
letters is a Frenzy card. But a card that says "political action" in
bold letters is not a political action card?

I understand that Bujo cannot choose another Bujo because there is no
referendum on that card. But I don't understand how Bujo could not be
considered a political action card.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 2:36:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:

> Also note that Not to Be (along with Shilmulo Tarot) is bound to
create
> some issues when it comes to Trivia Questions like what the maximum
> number of master phase actions can be. I'm thinking:
>
> - There are currently 23 Gehenna events and 4 Government events so
you
> can provide up to 27 additional master phase actions with Not to
Be's.
> (You can use Malkavian Time Auction to give them away and Reversal of
> Fortunes to make sure they all go off at once). Man would I love to
see
> someone with -26 discard phase actions!
>
> - Anson/Rumors for an additional one.
>
> - Parthenon.
>
> - One from a trifle.
>
> - Synesios + an OOT master (the OOT master still "counts against"
your
> master phase).
>
> - Huitzilopochtli
>
> - Cybele (Grouping rules are avoided by stealing/buying control of
the
> necessary vampires).
>
> - 181 master cards played and cancelled by Rewind Times or Bleeding
the
> Vine. (90 from your deck, 90 from someone else's deck which you get
> from Shilmulo Tarot, 1 from Erciyes Fragment).
>
> (Throughout this, Erciyes Fragment and Madness Network may be helpful
> in making this flow more smoothly).
>
>
>
> Ideally, this could result in a total of around 215 master phsae
> actions. Though in reality, the main limiting factor seems to be the
> number of times the other players could play and pay for the 181
Rewind
> Times. Krassimir and Nu can pay for 7 Rewind Times. TEM can be
obtained
> via Infernal Pact or Sanguine Instructions. Ian Forestal gaining the
> Ankara Citadel and having a whole bunch of Masochisms can also pay
for
> a lot, though then you begin to run low on card slots.
>
> Okay, so it's time to get off of my tangent. Anyone else enjoy this
> thought exercise or would care to contribute to it? ;) 
>
> *** Now that I think of it, you can actually play even more cards (in
> addition to your library, Shilmulo Tarot, and Erciyes) with Agaitas
in
> play, though this still has as the limiting factor the blood to pay
for
> Rewind Time.



Hmmm...I think I've found the solution to the blood cost problem. One
player uses Etrius, gets the Ankara Citadel, 2 Fortitude cards, and
Trophy: Discipline (for Temporis). He then gets about 13 Masochisms.
(All of these are acquired from other players' libraries of course).

At full blood and full Masochism counters, he now has effectively 13 x
14 = 182 blood to spend (enough to play the necessary Rewind Times).
Using a 90 card Rewind Time deck and Agaitas (who lets you play 90
Rewind Time from your prey's library), you can play 180 Rewind Time.
Krassimir and Nu can play any others that are needed. There! Problem
solved! =P



- Eric Chiang
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:28:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I'm going to buzz in here and have a shot. look at me, mum!

On 23 Feb 2005 15:45:20 -0800, echiang777@yahoo.com scrawled:
>#1. Benedict Giovanni, Agent (grupo 4)
>Giovanni (Uncommon)
>Capacity: 6
>[FOR] [POT] [cel] [dom] [nec]
>Independent: During your untap phase, any Giovanni older than the
>oldest ready Giovanni you control can burn 1 blood to take control of
>Benedict. Benedict cannot block undirected actions.
>
>Am I correct in assuming that the "taking control" of Benedict is
>permanent? Since no length of time is mentioned, I'm guessing it is
>permanent (or at least until control is stolen again).

Yes, permanent until re-stolen.

>#2. Scalpel Tongue
>Action Modifier/Reaction (Common)
>Celerity/Presence
>Costs: 1 Blood
>Only usable during a referendum.
>[cel] Choose a vampire who has cast one or more votes in this
>referendum. The chosen vampire is tapped and abstains during this
>referendum (this cancel's that vampire's votes).
>[CEL] As above, and the chosen vampire burns 1 blood.
>
>Am I correct in reading that you can choose *any* vampire who has cast
>a vote (unlike Telepathic Vote Counting, Under the Skin, and Kindred
>Manipulation which all require a *younger* vampire)? Just wanted to
>make sure that Mazz can indeed tap and cancel the votes of Gwendolyn.

Any vampire. Note, however, that they need to have _cast_ their votes.

>#3. Just checking that since card text does not specify otherwise, both
>Fatuus Mastery and Soul Decoration are stackable. Right?

great. skip the card text why don't you. :p 

>If so, then stack a few Fatuus Masteries and you can play Sensory
>Deprivation every turn at no cost! Alternatively, obtain multiple Soul
>Decorations and no one will be able to block you with Auspex. Kinda
>harsh when you can freely cancel 2 or 3 Auspex cards each time you act!

....and if no one is playing auspex?

>#4. Deviki Prasanta
>Ally (Rare)
>Assamite
>Unique ghoul with 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed.
>If Deviki is ready during your master phase, you may tap Deviki to
>search your library or ash heap for a master: Discipline card and place
>that card on a ready Assamite you control.
>
>Since you place the card on the Assamite (which differs from "playing"
>the card), I assume that you can give a vampire a discipline he already
>has at superior just for the capacity increase? For example, give
>Harika 10 Quietus skill cards to give her super-duper Quietus and
>capacity 13?

from the WW card list pre-KMW for the animalism skill card:
"Cannot be <placed> on a vampire with superior Animalism."

so i'd say "no".

>#5. Dis Pater
>Master (Rare)
>Giovanni
>Unique master.
>Put this card in play. Once each action, when a Giovanni you control
>successfully bleeds your prey, you may remove seven cards in your ash
>heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed
>
>Since using the ability requires "successfully bleeding your prey," am
>I correct in assuming it has a similar timing window as Spying Mission,
>and thus one cannot Deflect or Telepathically Misdirect when Dis Pater
>is used (since it would be too late)?

correct. No AI, either, if it tips you over 3.

>#6. Sudario Refraction
>Action (Rare)
>Giovanni
>+1 stealth action.
>Choose three cards in your ash heap and move them to the top of your
>library. Then, discard three cards at random from your hand (and draw
>up to your hand size afterward).
>
>Is the "and draw up to your hand size afterward" an instruction or
>simply reminder text? For example, if Meddling of Semsith is in play
>targeting you and you play Sudario Refraction, would the directive to
>"draw up to your hand size" override the Meddling effect? Or is it just
>reminder text?

Reminder text. Meddling rules.

>#7. Bujo
>Political Action (Rare)
>Ravnos
>+1 stealth political action.
>Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap. Call
>the referendum given on that card (this Ravnos must meet the
>requirements of that political action, if any) and remove that card
>from the game. This vampire gains 3 additional votes in this
>referendum.
>
>What happens if you play a Bujo, choosing another Bujo? The Bujo is a
>political action card but has no referendum on the card.

umm....i might guess ... umm... i think i'll leave this one alone.

>#8. Inquisition
>Action (Starter Gangrel antitribu)
>Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. +1 stealth action.
>(D) Choose one or more bishops. Each of the chosen bishops loses his or
>her title and takes 2 unpreventable damage. The controllers of the
>chosen bishops may attempt to block in addition to the normally
>eligible blockers.
>
>This odd cards seems to play havoc with standard targeting rules.
>Previous precedent seems to have ruled that if an action has multiple
>targets controlled by different Methusalehs, then the action is
>undirected. For example, using Mehemet's special on a vampire and
>discipline card both controlled by your prey is directed. But using his
>special on a vampire controlled by your prey and a discipline card
>controlled by your predator makes the action undirected.
>
>Inquisition has a "(D)" sign. But since you can choose multiple bishops
>controlled by different players, does this make it a (D) action
>targeting every other Methusaleh who controls a minion you have chosen
>or just an undirected action (the clause allowing additional blockers
>seems to imply this)? This may be especially important for cards like
>inferior Sonar and Warnings Signs which only work on directed actions.
>
>Based on the previous Mehemet precedent, I would argue that if you play
>Inquisition on a bishop controlled by your grandprey and a bishop
>controlled by your grandpredator, then the action is an *undirected*
>action that your grandprey, grandpredator, predator, and prey can all
>attempt to block. Correct?

Yes, this card does cause havoc with the normal targetting rules.
Presumably you choose 1 methuselah to be the target of the D, and then
all the other ones who have bishops get to block too. but it's still a
D action against whoever you initially chose as the target. (so that
if they have the edge, you can play that fancy new edge gaining card).

>#9. Anarch Secession (grupo 4)
>Action (Rare)
>+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-anarch, titled vampire.
>Put an anarch counter on this acting vampire. This vampire becomes
>anarch (and Independent). If he or she had a city title, he or she
>becomes the baron of the same city as his or her previous title.
>Minions without titles cannot block this action. Burn the anarch
>counter if this vampire changes sects.
>
>Currently, the only "city titles" are Prince, Archbishop, and Baron.
>(Though Barons cannot play Anarch Secession). Correct?

correct.

>#10. Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario
>Master (Rare)
>Cost: 4 pool.
>Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
>During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a
>ready vampire you control. Any other Methuselah may give you a pool
>during his or her untap phase to tap this card to move 1 blood from the
>blood bank to a ready vampire he or she controls. A vampire can gain
>blood from only one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>
>If multiple Methuselahs want to give you a pool to gain a blood, then I
>assume the order of priority is based on standard procedure (clockwise
>from the acting player)? So a player's prey will have the chance to use
>it before the player's predator can, correct?

correct.

>#11. Not to Be
>Master (Rare)
>Cost: 1 pool
>Master: out-of-turn.
>Cancel an event card as it is played (no cost is paid). Put this card
>in play. During your master phase, you get one additional master phase
>action. During your discard phase, you get one fewer discard phase
>action, and this card is burned.
>
>If a player manages to gain control of multiple Not to Be's, what
>happens if he has a negative number of discard phase actions? For
>example, a player controls 3 Not to Be's. During his discard phase, he
>would have -2 discard phase actions. Also, if he then taps Powerbase:
>Los Angeles to gain a discard phase action, does he get to use it or is
>it instantly eaten up by one of the Not to Be's?

i'm assuming some sort of crazy trading with succubus club, as you
can't ever get to play more that one MooT between master phases.
i'd say you can have negative DPAs, and that if you tap the PB:LA, it
will add one to that negative number. but having a negative number has
no other pain. it's just treated as 0, except for effects that give
you DPAs.

>#12. Threestar Cab Company
>Master (Starter Anathema)
>Cost: 3 pool.
>Master: unique location. Hunting Ground.
>Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
>this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card
>to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can only gain
>blood from one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>
>You can use the Church of the Order of St. Blaise on Threestar Cab
>Company, right?

yeah. card text on Church. 3 star is a location card that uses
counters.

>#13. Trophy: Clan Respect
>Master (Rare)
>Master. Trophy.
>When this card enters play, choose a clan. Vampires of the chosen clan
>cannot block the vampire with this card.
>
>If Ventrue is chosen as the Trophy Clan, Sonja Blue can still attempt
>to block right? (Since she would be blocking as an ally and not as a
>member of the chosen clan).

sure.

>#14. Sonja Blue (grupo 4)
>Ventrue (Uncommon)
>Capacity: 5
>[CEL] [FOR] [dom] [pot]
>Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in
>your influence phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D)
>action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat).
>During your prey's discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to move
>Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove her from
>the game.
>
>If Sonja Blue "blocks as an ally" when Caiaphas Smith is acting, what
>happens? Does the world explode?

"Any vampire blocking Caiaphas is burned after the combat (if any)".
As she blocked as an ally, there was no vampire blocking caiphas. if
caiphas had said "if caiphas is blocked, burn the vampire after
combat", then he'd kill Sonja.

>And finally, not exactly a new KMW card but...
>
>#15. Carver's Meat Packing and Storage [Gehenna:R]
>Cardtype: Master
>Cost: 1 pool
>Master. unique location.
>When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage
>counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be
>diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move X
>blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is the
>number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to
>burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all
>hostage counters if this card leaves play.
>
>Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
>Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
>or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
>Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
>uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
>influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
>the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
>remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?

his counter has no effect until after he's in the ready region, so
he's a ready hostage. make sure you don't dunk him again, cause then
he'll have 2 hostage counters, and be very hard to get out.

>Okay, that's about it for now. I look forward to reading the answers!
>;)

and i look forward to reading lsj's responses!
:) 

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:29:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:28:08 +1100, salem
<salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> scrawled:

man. 12 posts in this thread in the 2 hours since i checked for new
messages.

guess i'd better read them.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:29:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I'm not sure that your count is quite right, Eric. My first thought
was that you have to subtract the Parthenon and Shimulo Tarot and
Erciyes Fragment from the 90 Master cards you could possibly have in
your deck, but you could always get those from another methuselah via
Malkavian Time Auctions. Then there's the question of total card-count
at the table. We need 180 Master cards, Ankara Citadel, 2 Fortitudes,
Trophy: Discipline, 13 Mashochisms, 180 Rewind Times, 27 Not To Be's,
27 Events, at least 30 Malkavian Time Auctions, approximately 8
Reversals of Fortune, and some cards for the combat that allows Etrius
to burn a Jayne Jonestown (probably Theft of Vitae, Apportation, Walk
of Flame? - wait, no all you need is a Trap and a Walk of Flame). Even
if that's all, that leaves us with 471 cards, out of 450 possible cards
at the table. There may be a way to work it with a few less of certain
cards, though.

Then there's the problem that Shimulo Tarot only takes cards out of
your own ashheap, so I'm not sure how it helps in the equation at all.
You can get around the problem by using Agaitas, which means that 2
Methuselah's entire decks must consist of nothing but random master
cards which *you* must play. Increasing the number of Reversal of
Fortunes required (although that number is already reflected above -
I'm estimating 8).

Now, Etrius can use Rewind Times from his own library and from his
prey's library using Agaitas, or you can use Master Cards from your own
library and your prey's library using Agaitas, but it doesn't seem like
it can work both ways, since he needs to play Rewind Times *while* you
play Master cards.

I'm sure there's a way to make this work, but I'm not sure what it is.
Perhaps it has something to do with Storage Annexes, although that
increases the number of required cards by about 50%... If only you
could magical hack Path of the Feral Heart to say "Temporis" instead of
Protean.... 8)

Close to figuring it out.... And I will be very disappointed if the
number is less than 180.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:30:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:26:06 -0700, "Frederick Scott"
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> scrawled:

>
>"Peter D Bakija" <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BE428526.1DBB4%pdb6@lightlink.com...
>> echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, that's about it for now. I look forward to reading the answers!
>>
>> Wow. That is a lot of rules questions. I'm impressed. I haven't read the
>> cards enough yet. I haven't gotten past True Love's Kiss yet...
>
>True Love's Face (sorry Peter, this was the closest thing I could find)
>Action Modifier
>[obf] +1 bleed. After playing this card, you cannot play another
>action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action.
>[OBJ] Only usable when a minion attempts to block. That block
>fails (do not tap that minion). That minion cannot attempt to block this
>action again. The controller of this minion may pay a pool to cancel
>this card as it is played.
>
>Fred (who has taken a moment to download the ELDB data file)

i think it's the art more than the text that got Peter stuck.

or sticky, or whatever.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:30:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"salem" <salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6gbq11lf8rb03guf5u5i252mmoboqn53d9@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:26:06 -0700, "Frederick Scott"
> <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> scrawled:
>>"Peter D Bakija" <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote in message
>> news:BE428526.1DBB4%pdb6@lightlink.com...
>>> echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Wow. That is a lot of rules questions. I'm impressed. I haven't read the
>>> cards enough yet. I haven't gotten past True Love's Kiss yet...
>>
>>True Love's Face (sorry Peter, this was the closest thing I could find)
>>Action Modifier
....
>>Fred (who has taken a moment to download the ELDB data file)
>
> i think it's the art more than the text that got Peter stuck.
>
> or sticky, or whatever.

Hmmm. I haven't seen the art, yet. Sounds like there must more than just
a face on that card.

Fred
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:30:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

So a card that says "Frenzy" in bold letters is not a Frenzy card?
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:34:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:

>
> Man. This is like, the third time this has happened when I made a
joke about
> True Love's Face.
>
Heh, I still don't think I've gotten all the way through the text on
that card yet. "...may burn a blood to... aww, who cares."
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:34:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:19:28 -0700, "Frederick Scott"
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> scrawled:

><echiang777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1109202320.217775.131180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> #3. Just checking that since card text does not specify otherwise, both
>> Fatuus Mastery and Soul Decoration are stackable. Right?
>>
>> If so, then stack a few Fatuus Masteries and you can play Sensory
>> Deprivation every turn at no cost! Alternatively, obtain multiple Soul
>> Decorations and no one will be able to block you with Auspex. Kinda
>> harsh when you can freely cancel 2 or 3 Auspex cards each time you act!
>
>I think you underestimate the cost of taking an action. If a Ravnos sets
>himself up with three Soul Decorations, he deserves to thereby be pretty
>difficult to stop.

yeah! especially since he'd need vic and obf, to get the soul
decorations in the first place!

:D 


salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:54:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Chris Berger wrote:
> I'm not sure that your count is quite right, Eric. My first thought
> was that you have to subtract the Parthenon and Shimulo Tarot and
> Erciyes Fragment from the 90 Master cards you could possibly have in
> your deck, but you could always get those from another methuselah via
> Malkavian Time Auctions. Then there's the question of total
card-count
> at the table. We need 180 Master cards, Ankara Citadel, 2
Fortitudes,
> Trophy: Discipline, 13 Mashochisms, 180 Rewind Times, 27 Not To Be's,
> 27 Events, at least 30 Malkavian Time Auctions, approximately 8
> Reversals of Fortune, and some cards for the combat that allows
Etrius
> to burn a Jayne Jonestown (probably Theft of Vitae, Apportation, Walk
> of Flame? - wait, no all you need is a Trap and a Walk of Flame).
Even
> if that's all, that leaves us with 471 cards, out of 450 possible
cards
> at the table. There may be a way to work it with a few less of
certain
> cards, though.


Actually, you are probably better off using First Traditions intsead of
Reversal of Fortunes. Regardless, both the First Traditions and
Malkavian Time Auctions can do double-duty through judicious use of the
Erciyes Fragment (meaning you only need half as many).

Burning a Red List should be relatively easy - diablerie works fine.
Just have Jayne get punched by Lazverinus and you'll be fine.


> Then there's the problem that Shimulo Tarot only takes cards out of
> your own ashheap, so I'm not sure how it helps in the equation at
all.
> You can get around the problem by using Agaitas, which means that 2
> Methuselah's entire decks must consist of nothing but random master
> cards which *you* must play. Increasing the number of Reversal of
> Fortunes required (although that number is already reflected above -
> I'm estimating 8).


Shimulo Tarot works because a player can play Shimulo Tarot. After 80
or so turns, most of his library will be on the Shimulo Tarot. Then let
a different player steal it (best to save card slots by using
Konstantin, Alexis, or Lucian). That player adds a few more cards. And
then you finally steal control of the Tarot when there are 90 cards on
it.

Once again, First Tradition is a better choice than Reversal of
Fortunes. And you get to use each one twice with Erciyes Fragment.

Truth be told however, you could potentially do this with just a single
First Tradition and a handful of Malkavian Time Auctions if you
judiciously use Pochtli and Carlotta.



> Now, Etrius can use Rewind Times from his own library and from his
> prey's library using Agaitas, or you can use Master Cards from your
own
> library and your prey's library using Agaitas, but it doesn't seem
like
> it can work both ways, since he needs to play Rewind Times *while*
you
> play Master cards.


Yep. That's how it works. You play 180 Master cards using your library
and a library worth of cards under Shilmulo Tarot. And Etrius plays 180
Rewind Times with his library and a second library thanks to Agaitas.
(And the cost is paid via Ankara and a whole bunch of Masochisms).




- Eric Chiang
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 4:29:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<jnewquist@difsol.com> wrote in message
news:1109261432.547739.5030@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > > If Sonja fails to block as a vampire or as an ally, can she then
> > > attempt to block as the other?
> >
> > Any minion who fails to block is free to try again.
>
> Unless the block failed due to (say) Psychomachia, right?

Everything is always "unless card text says otherwise", right.

Psychomachia: "The blocking minion cannot attempt to block this action
again."

> So if Sargon
> acted, and Sonya blocks as an ally, and Sargon can then play
> psychomachia (ally or younger vampire), she can't attempt to block as a
> vampire (even though she's not a younger vampire), right?

That minion (Sonja) cannot attempt to block the action again, by
card text.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 4:33:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Chris Berger" <arkayn@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:1109266491.883705.259970@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> The symbol is definitely an action symbol. However, the card clearly
> states "+1 stealth political action". I was under the impression that
> specific card text always overrides the rulebook (which tells us that
> political actions have that little dome symbol on them). If a card
> tells me it's a political action, I'm inclined to believe it.
>
> Is there new errata for Bujo?


No.

Like Charming Lobby, the card is an action card and the action
is allows is a political action. All by printed card text.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 5:50:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Chris Berger" <arkayn@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:1109273057.807140.247750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I understand that Bujo cannot choose another Bujo because there is no
> referendum on that card. But I don't understand how Bujo could not be
> considered a political action card.


In exactly the same way that Charming Lobby is not a political
action card.

You cannot burn Bujo (or Charming Lobby) for a vote, for
example, although you can burn a political action card
for a vote.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...


--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 6:38:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Chris Berger" <arkayn@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:1109277037.010364.194570@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> So a card that says "Frenzy" in bold letters is not a Frenzy card?


A card that says "+1 stealth frenzy action" would not necessarily
qualify as a Frenzy action card if the latter has a special
definition (and icon) that the former does not adhere to, no.

The action would be a frenzy action, but the card would not
be a "Frenzy action card" card type, if such a thing existed.

There's not much left to say on the topic that hasn't been
covered repeatedly already.

If it doesn't work for you, then treat it as special-case errata.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 6:51:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

echiang777@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Burning a Red List should be relatively easy - diablerie works fine.
> Just have Jayne get punched by Lazverinus and you'll be fine.
>
True. For some reason, I was trying to save on minions and on actions,
but that's not at all necessary.

> Shimulo Tarot works because a player can play Shimulo Tarot. After 80
> or so turns, most of his library will be on the Shimulo Tarot. Then
let
> a different player steal it (best to save card slots by using
> Konstantin, Alexis, or Lucian). That player adds a few more cards.
And
> then you finally steal control of the Tarot when there are 90 cards
on
> it.
>
Doh, yeah, I was thinking somewhat along those lines, but lost my train
of thought and decided that the Shimulo Tarot was useless.

> Once again, First Tradition is a better choice than Reversal of
> Fortunes. And you get to use each one twice with Erciyes Fragment.
>
True. Reversal of Fortunes is fun, though.


> Truth be told however, you could potentially do this with just a
single
> First Tradition and a handful of Malkavian Time Auctions if you
> judiciously use Pochtli and Carlotta.
>
Which would probably be necessary, since you have to cut down on the
number of cards used due to library limitations.

There's one other thing - you mention using 27 events. A lot of the
Gehenna events require other Gehenna cards in play in order to play
them. As far as I know, there are no Gehenna cards that aren't events,
which means some of the events would need to successfully get into play
in order to play the other events. So you'd have to let 3 of them get
through and you'd be able to cancel 24 events.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 7:33:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:28:08 +1100, salem
<salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>#12. Threestar Cab Company
>>Master (Starter Anathema)
>>Cost: 3 pool.
>>Master: unique location. Hunting Ground.
>>Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
>>this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card
>>to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can only gain
>>blood from one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>>
>>You can use the Church of the Order of St. Blaise on Threestar Cab
>>Company, right?
>
>yeah. card text on Church. 3 star is a location card that uses
>counters.

Does anyone else feel that a Hunting Ground with a built in Blood Doll
to Pool is worth 3 pool given it only works once every two turns? I
thought it gained a counter during Untap, but no, it requires tapping.
And as the transfer only allows 1 transfer on a tap, you can't even
build it up over several turns to great effect. I just don't 'see' it.

Morgan Vening
- !aus/!AUS
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 7:33:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Morgan Vening" <morgan@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message news:8dpq115hsk9her6optc97gbnplvus7tfp7@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:28:08 +1100, salem
> <salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>#12. Threestar Cab Company
>>>Master (Starter Anathema)
>>>Cost: 3 pool.
>>>Master: unique location. Hunting Ground.
>>>Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
>>>this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card
>>>to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can only gain
>>>blood from one Hunting Ground card each turn.
>>>
>>>You can use the Church of the Order of St. Blaise on Threestar Cab
>>>Company, right?
>>
>>yeah. card text on Church. 3 star is a location card that uses
>>counters.
>
> Does anyone else feel that a Hunting Ground with a built in Blood Doll
> to Pool is worth 3 pool given it only works once every two turns? I
> thought it gained a counter during Untap, but no, it requires tapping.
> And as the transfer only allows 1 transfer on a tap, you can't even
> build it up over several turns to great effect. I just don't 'see' it.

Agreed, it does sound way overpriced at 3 pool. Six turns to recover
the cost, although unlike most hunting grounds you can begin on the turn
you play it. Perhaps the expectation is that you will be using it in
combination with CotOoSB and/or other cards yet to come.

Fred
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 7:33:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:33:09 +1100, Morgan Vening
<morgan@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>Does anyone else feel that a Hunting Ground with a built in Blood Doll
>to Pool is worth 3 pool given it only works once every two turns? I
>thought it gained a counter during Untap, but no, it requires tapping.
>And as the transfer only allows 1 transfer on a tap, you can't even
>build it up over several turns to great effect. I just don't 'see' it.
>Morgan Vening
>- !aus/!AUS

It seems like a Powerbase: Chicago with counters that cannot be stolen
(of course, the location itself can) and can be moved to one of your
vampires. The difference being that you actually tap the card to put
counters on this "alternate hunting Chicago ground".

So yeah... It'd be better if costed 2 pool. But I prefer this as a "HG
for Bloodlines" than Club Zombie.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 5:11:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Also recall that when the game begins, you draw 7 cards, so I'm not
certain the Agitas trick would work to get you a full 90. Maybe
there's some way to shrink your handsize to zero and then put cards
back in your library.

Also, it seems like it would take a lot of tries to ensure that
everyone drew all the cards they needed in the right order.

Finally, this is a totally ridiculous but a strangely entertaining
puzzle to think about.

Ira
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 6:39:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Morgan Vening wrote:
> >>#12. Threestar Cab Company
> >>Master (Starter Anathema)
> >>Cost: 3 pool.
> >>Master: unique location. Hunting Ground.
> >>Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
> >>this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this
card
> >>to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can only
gain
> >>blood from one Hunting Ground card each turn.
> Does anyone else feel that a Hunting Ground with a built in Blood
Doll
> to Pool is worth 3 pool given it only works once every two turns? I
> thought it gained a counter during Untap, but no, it requires
tapping.
> And as the transfer only allows 1 transfer on a tap, you can't even
> build it up over several turns to great effect. I just don't 'see'
it.

I can see another combo coming up for the goth band... Regarhagan's
Hold+Palla Grande and/or 3star...

not the best combo, though, but a useful one once in a while (weenie
!tories?? who knows?)

cheers
Luciano "Baital" de Sampaio
VEKN Anarch Baron de Curitiba
VEKN Baali Clan Newsletter Editor
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 11:58:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

yeah, of course, your target isn't likely to bleed himself for 1 a turn
if you have a Goth Band out (and if you don't have a Goth Band out, he
can burn it before they get to act), so it will end up simply keeping
the Regarghan's Hold in play, but still not bad.
!