About Mata Hari

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Evening, I have a question about Mata Hari´s special.

So, I understand that Mara Hari´s special let her play cards such as
Political Struggle or Patshiv. But, can she play cards such as The
Wildebeest or Khabar: Glory?

And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
only Camarilla and Sabbat ?

Thank you very much

Vincent Seaswerve

 

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alastor14@gmail.com (Vincent Seaswerve) wrote in message news:<d9953ee.0502262254.453ce134@posting.google.com>...
> Evening, I have a question about Mata Hari´s special.
>
> So, I understand that Mara Hari´s special let her play cards such as
> Political Struggle or Patshiv. But, can she play cards such as The
> Wildebeest or Khabar: Glory?
>
> And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
> only Camarilla and Sabbat ?
>
> Thank you very much
>
> Vincent Seaswerve


A second question is : Can Mata Hari or even Tatiana Stepanova play
Gangrel Justicar, for example?And if they can, do they gain the
additional votes from the political action (each ready gangrel gains 1
additional vote in that referendum)?

Thanks,

Konstantinos Voultsos
prince of jyhad wasted players,Thessaloniki

 

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On 26 Feb 2005 22:54:36 -0800, Vincent Seaswerve <alastor14@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Evening, I have a question about Mata Hari´s special.
>
> So, I understand that Mara Hari´s special let her play cards such as
> Political Struggle or Patshiv.

Patshiv she can play not because of her special ability, but because of
her clan.

> But, can she play cards such as The Wildebeest or Khabar: Glory?

AFAIK her special is enough to play anything that requires a clan.

However, there is the small thing about semantics.

If a card has a continuing effect, like being put on the acting minion,
or referring to the acting minion or minions of the acting minion's
clan, then for that effect Mata Hari is normally considered to be
Ravnos. If the card, for example, says, "Put this card on this vampire.
This Ahrimane gets...", then Mata Hari only gets the benefits as long
as she is an Ahrimane. Since she is only considered an Ahrimane when
*playing* the card, it gets put on her, but she gains no benefit from
it until she effectively changes clans.

> And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
> only Camarilla and Sabbat ?

No. There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat and Independents. The rest
are more like traits.

In the source material Camarilla and Sabbat are the two opposing large
vampire sects that have existed for about 400 years for now. Independence
is basically being non-aligned to either sect. Anarchs are basically a
loose-knit movement that opposes both sects, though more ideologically
than through force; and Black Hand are a sect-within-a-sect for the
Sabbat, being something like a "Sabbat Special Forces" thing.

In the CCG though the three sects are Camarilla, Sabbat and Independent.
The rest are just special traits that allow the vampire to use certain
cards.

> Thank you very much
>
> Vincent Seaswerve

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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"Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message
newspsmumt2uoo6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
>> And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
>> only Camarilla and Sabbat ?
>
> No. There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat and Independents. The rest
> are more like traits.

More precisely, there are only two sects: Camarilla and Sabbat. 'Independent'
essentially means, "not belonging to either sect". The distinction is fairly
meaningless in most card texts, however. As long as it's understood that
'sectless' is synonymous with 'indepedent'.

Fred

 

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On 27 Feb 2005 02:48:42 -0800, Kaisharga <thedude@acn.gr> wrote:

> A second question is : Can Mata Hari or even Tatiana Stepanova play
> Gangrel Justicar, for example?And if they can, do they gain the
> additional votes from the political action (each ready gangrel gains 1
> additional vote in that referendum)?

They can play it (the new text says "called by any vampire").

They cannot be chosen for it, however, nor do they gain any additional
votes during the referendum.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:xWlUd.16556$ds.12265@okepread07...
>
> "Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> newspsmumt2uoo6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
>>> And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
>>> only Camarilla and Sabbat ?
>>
>> No. There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat and Independents. The rest
>> are more like traits.
>
> More precisely, there are only two sects: Camarilla and Sabbat.
> 'Independent'
> essentially means, "not belonging to either sect". The distinction is
> fairly
> meaningless in most card texts, however. As long as it's understood that
> 'sectless' is synonymous with 'indepedent'.
>
> Fred
So Mata Hari cannot even play cards that require an Independent vampire?

 

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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:03:11 GMT, golconda2 <golconda2@insightbb.com>
wrote:

> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:xWlUd.16556$ds.12265@okepread07...
>>
>> "Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message
>> newspsmumt2uoo6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
>>>> And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
>>>> only Camarilla and Sabbat ?
>>>
>>> No. There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat and Independents. The rest
>>> are more like traits.
>>
>> More precisely, there are only two sects: Camarilla and Sabbat.
>> 'Independent'
>> essentially means, "not belonging to either sect". The distinction is
>> fairly
>> meaningless in most card texts, however. As long as it's understood
>> that
>> 'sectless' is synonymous with 'indepedent'.
>>
>> Fred
> So Mata Hari cannot even play cards that require an Independent vampire?

Don't get confused by what Fred said. Independents are as good as being a
sect as the other two (because currently all vampires MUST fall into one
of the three 'sects'). There is no sectless vampire; a vampire who is
neither Camarilla nor Sabbat is no more Independent, than the vampire who
is neither Camarilla nor Independent is Sabbat. Game-mechanics-wise 'sect'
refers to one of three possible allegiance options available for the given
crypt card, kind of like a "Polarity" or such.

So, back to the question: the reason Mata Hari can play cards that require
an Independent vampire is because she is Independent herself. It has
nothing
to do with her clan or special ability.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> newspsmumt2uoo6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
>
>>>And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
>>>only Camarilla and Sabbat ?
>>
>>No. There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat and Independents. The rest
>> are more like traits.
>
>
> More precisely, there are only two sects: Camarilla and Sabbat. 'Independent'
> essentially means, "not belonging to either sect". The distinction is fairly
> meaningless in most card texts, however. As long as it's understood that
> 'sectless' is synonymous with 'indepedent'.

There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat, and Independent.
Every vampire has a sect.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

 

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"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:5irUd.1612$wy3.730@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message
>> newspsmumt2uoo6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
>>
>>>>And another question, are Anarch and Black Hand considered sects ? or
>>>>only Camarilla and Sabbat ?
>>>
>>>No. There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat and Independents. The rest
>>> are more like traits.
>>
>> More precisely, there are only two sects: Camarilla and Sabbat. 'Independent'
>> essentially means, "not belonging to either sect". The distinction is fairly
>> meaningless in most card texts, however. As long as it's understood that
>> 'sectless' is synonymous with 'indepedent'.
>
> There are three sects: Camarilla, Sabbat, and Independent.
> Every vampire has a sect.

From the Rulebook
# 10.3. Independents
#
# Other clans are not aligned with either sect; they are called Independent. Any clan
# not listed above as belonging to the Camarilla or the Sabbat is Independent. These
# vampires are identified simply as "Independent" on card text. Some vampire cards from
# older sets are identified as "Non-Camarilla" on card text - these vampires are all
# Independent vampires. Independent vampires are both "Non-Camarilla" and "Non-Sabbat."

Sorry, to me that sounds a lot closer to my way of saying it than yours. If my
statement gives a misleading impression for purposes of some card or other rule,
then perhaps the passage above should be altered (and a few others in some of the
other sections of rule 10 for that matter). I wasn't looking at Mata Hari's
card text but it looks like the distinction might have been problematic - except
that Mata Hari herself is listed as Indepedent so can play cards requiring Independent
for that reason. Had she had been listed as Sabbat or Camarilla, rule 10 would
definitely give the impression that she wouldn't be able to play, say, Banner of
Neutrality.

Fred

 

[DEMON]

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I think I need some clarification here:

playing a card as X causes the playing minion to be treated as X in the
context of _playing_ the card.

but other side effects (like being chosen as a target for the same card
or gaining votes for that referendum) do not see the minion as being X?

 

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Daneel <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opsmuu4406o6j3lh@news.chello.hu>...
> On 27 Feb 2005 02:48:42 -0800, Kaisharga <thedude@acn.gr> wrote:
>
> > A second question is : Can Mata Hari or even Tatiana Stepanova play
> > Gangrel Justicar, for example?And if they can, do they gain the
> > additional votes from the political action (each ready gangrel gains 1
> > additional vote in that referendum)?
>
> They can play it (the new text says "called by any vampire").
>
> They cannot be chosen for it, however, nor do they gain any additional
> votes during the referendum.

But is it possible that she play Hostile Takeover?


buddah's smiling face

 

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buddah wrote:

> But is it possible that she play Hostile Takeover?
>
>
> buddah's smiling face

Mata Hari does not play Hostile Takeover, as that is a master card,
which you play.

However, as her card text allows you to play cards of any sect or clan
as though she were a member of that sect or clan, and Hostile Takeover
requires a Ventrue, you can play that card if she is ready.

Andy

 

[DEMON]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> The play of the card (including selecting the terms of the
referendum,
> choosing targets, etc.) treats the minion playing it _as_ something
> as that something.

ok, as I understand it then (correct me if I'm wrong):
in Mata Hari's case, this would then mean that she could call gangrel
justicar, choose herself as the recipient and get the extra vote.

> Effects from the card being in play or from continuing effects
> provided by the card or from other cards do not.

so she would not keep the title as she is not treated as gangrel after
the referendum is over and justicar titles can only be held by a member
of the appropriate clan.

 

[DEMON]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> 1) Gangrel Justicar does not require Gangrel, so her special is
> completely inert for that card.

erm... yes *blush*
a better example would have been the new FoS vote card:

Hierophant
Political Action
Followers of Set
Political Card - Worth 1 vote. Called by any Follower of Set as a +1
stealth action.
Choose a Follower of Set. If this referendum passes, put this card on
the chosen vampire. The vampire with this card has 1 additional vote.
Any vampire who successfully blocks the vampire with this card burns 1
blood (before combat begins, if any).

she could call that (multiple times even) on herself to accumulate
votes.
had it said: 'The Follower of Set with this card has 1 additional
vote.' she would have gained no extra votes.

I think I understand exactly how this works now, thanks!

 

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<demon@hell.is> wrote in message
news:1109592539.030949.65570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> LSJ wrote:
> > The play of the card (including selecting the terms of the
> referendum,
> > choosing targets, etc.) treats the minion playing it _as_ something
> > as that something.
>
> ok, as I understand it then (correct me if I'm wrong):
> in Mata Hari's case, this would then mean that she could call gangrel
> justicar, choose herself as the recipient and get the extra vote.
>
> > Effects from the card being in play or from continuing effects
> > provided by the card or from other cards do not.
>
> so she would not keep the title as she is not treated as gangrel after
> the referendum is over and justicar titles can only be held by a member
> of the appropriate clan.

1) Gangrel Justicar does not require Gangrel, so her special is
completely inert for that card.

2) If it did require Gangrel, she could name her Gangrel self,
yes. She could even get the title (losing her normal 2-vote
title). She would then have an inert (useless) title of Gangrel
Justicar until such time as she actually changed clans to become
Gangrel or until she gained a different title.


--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

 

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demon@hell.is wrote:
> I think I need some clarification here:
>
> playing a card as X causes the playing minion to be treated as X in the
> context of _playing_ the card.
>
> but other side effects (like being chosen as a target for the same card
> or gaining votes for that referendum) do not see the minion as being X?

The play of the card (including selecting the terms of the referendum,
choosing targets, etc.) treats the minion playing it _as_ something
as that something.

Effects from the card being in play or from continuing effects
provided by the card or from other cards do not.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

 

[Name]

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Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I think
.. . .

Any other wacky ideas?

Neil

 

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"Name" <name@name.com> wrote in message news:YOIUd.15023$hU7.8689@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I think


No. She could play Derange as a Malk to turn a vampire into a Malk.
Or she could play it as a !Malk to turn a vampire into a !Malk.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

 

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"Name" <name@name.com> wrote in message
news:YOIUd.15023$hU7.8689@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I think

I think you're right. Although:
1) She still couldn't play it on a Malkiavian or Malkavian Antitribu and turn
them into Ravnos; and

2) The target of the action could turn around and play back it on Mata Hari or
any of your vampires - except Malkavian or Malkavian Antitribu. So it doesn't
quite have all the nice safe qualities it has when Malk decks use it.

Still, it's a cool power. I have a feeling we'll be finding neat little uses
for her for years to come.

Fred

 

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"LSJ" <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:38h4iqF5n9irjU1@individual.net...
> "Name" <name@name.com> wrote in message news:YOIUd.15023$hU7.8689@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>> Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I think
>
>
> No. She could play Derange as a Malk to turn a vampire into a Malk.
> Or she could play it as a !Malk to turn a vampire into a !Malk.

Hmmm. OK - that begs the question, does she have to declare which clan
she is "playing it as" as she plays it? Answer seems obvious to me: yes,
I guess that's the only way to resolve the issue. ("Obvious to me",
unfortunately, seldom gurantees accuracy. )

Fred

 

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"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message news:AhJUd.16616$ds.5225@okepread07...
>
> "LSJ" <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:38h4iqF5n9irjU1@individual.net...
> > "Name" <name@name.com> wrote in message news:YOIUd.15023$hU7.8689@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> >> Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I think
> >
> >
> > No. She could play Derange as a Malk to turn a vampire into a Malk.
> > Or she could play it as a !Malk to turn a vampire into a !Malk.
>
> Hmmm. OK - that begs the question, does she have to declare which clan
> she is "playing it as" as she plays it? Answer seems obvious to me: yes,
> I guess that's the only way to resolve the issue. ("Obvious to me",
> unfortunately, seldom gurantees accuracy. )


Right as usual, Fred.

Similarly, if Alia plays Anesthetic Touch, she'd have to declare [aus]
or [obe].


--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

 

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Name <name@name.com> wrote:
: Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I think
: Any other wacky ideas?

That's a good one, didn't actually think of that.. Even better than
making opposing Vamps !Malks.

First cards that I noticed for Mata Hari included Concert Tour, Ankara
Citadel, Infernal Pact, Hostile Takeover, Ventrue Headquarters,
Demonstration and a huge pile of other clan req. power cards.

With Art of Pain, Ritual Challenge, Island of Yiaros and Depravity Mata
Hari could into a pretty nasty killer. Add to that some Political
Struggles and Island of Yiaros can actually become a bit nasty, if
brief, effect. Or just go Rush+Vote.

What I was considering second was using a lot of clan based vote
support cards and building a weenie voter around her. If only I could
think a way to get more permanent votes when using a huge amount of
Tumnimos and Ravnos weenies.

Good source of pretty funny decks, indeed.

//T

 

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LSJ <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote:
: "Name" <name@name.com> wrote in message news:YOIUd.15023$hU7.8689@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
:> Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I think

: No. She could play Derange as a Malk to turn a vampire into a Malk.
: Or she could play it as a !Malk to turn a vampire into a !Malk.

Drat. Missed that, as obvious as it was. Still, good for getting those
options. Hmm..

//T

 

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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:20:17 -0700, Frederick Scott
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:

>
> "LSJ" <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:38h4iqF5n9irjU1@individual.net...
>> "Name" <name@name.com> wrote in message
>> news:YOIUd.15023$hU7.8689@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>>> Hmmm . . . Mata Hari could play Derange and turn vamps into Ravnos!! I
>>> think
>>
>>
>> No. She could play Derange as a Malk to turn a vampire into a Malk.
>> Or she could play it as a !Malk to turn a vampire into a !Malk.
>
> Hmmm. OK - that begs the question, does she have to declare which clan
> she is "playing it as" as she plays it? Answer seems obvious to me: yes,
> I guess that's the only way to resolve the issue. ("Obvious to me",
> unfortunately, seldom gurantees accuracy. )

I know the feeling.

Still, it cannot be another way. She (a Ravnos) cannot play the card
(Derange) unless she uses her text. Her text only allows the card to
be played as a member of one definite clan (selected unless clear).

--
Bye,

Daneel