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Fall of the Camarilla is in play:

Can merged Kemintiri play PTO?

Can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary?


Next pair of questions (Fall of the Camarilla not in play):

Can Merged Kemintiri play Blood Hunt on herself?

Can a Primogen with Will of the Council play Blood Hunt
on itself?


My guesses are NO for Mata Hari and the Primogen as they
take on all aspects of being Camarilla and Prince
respectively.

I guess Kemintiri can indeed play Blood Hunt on herself,
but I really don't know about her playing PTO as I can't
find any references to playing cards requiring attributes
no longer in play, but I still guess she can play PTO
based on the assumption that all Camarilla titles are
dormant until such a time when Fall of the Camarilla is no
longer in play (ie all 'native' justicars temporarily no
longer benefits from their titles but Kemintiri simply plays
a card requiring a title)

Sten During
 
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"Sten Düring" <yappo@netg.se> wrote in message news:1109600725.1ba6217186ea4c1ff94446dc3b94de11@teranews...
> Fall of the Camarilla is in play:
> Can merged Kemintiri play PTO?
> Can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary?

Yes.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cc14903903b33066

> Next pair of questions (Fall of the Camarilla not in play):
>
> Can Merged Kemintiri play Blood Hunt on herself?

No.

> Can a Primogen with Will of the Council play Blood Hunt
> on itself?

No.

> My guesses are NO for Mata Hari and the Primogen as they
> take on all aspects of being Camarilla and Prince
> respectively.

Correct reasoning. I think you meant "Kemintiri", however,
since Mata Hari's question involves playing Camarilla
Exemplary as a Camarilla vampire.

> I guess Kemintiri can indeed play Blood Hunt on herself,

No. Blood Hunt she plays as a justicar cannot be played
on her, since she is playing it as a justicar.

> but I really don't know about her playing PTO as I can't
> find any references to playing cards requiring attributes
> no longer in play, but I still guess she can play PTO
> based on the assumption that all Camarilla titles are
> dormant until such a time when Fall of the Camarilla is no
> longer in play (ie all 'native' justicars temporarily no
> longer benefits from their titles but Kemintiri simply plays
> a card requiring a title)



--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
 
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> Can merged Kemintiri play PTO?
>

Yes.

> Can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary?
>

Yes. She can also target herself with it and benefit from it.

Can Mata Hari play PTO as an Inner Circle Member? (i.e. can she burn
someone of Capacity >5 with it?)

>
> Next pair of questions (Fall of the Camarilla not in play):
>
> Can Merged Kemintiri play Blood Hunt on herself?
>

No. The Blood Hunt would see Keminitri as an (untargetable) Justicar.

> Can a Primogen with Will of the Council play Blood Hunt
> on itself?
>

No. The Blood Hunt would see the Primogen as an (untargetable) Prince.
 
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Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:
> > Can merged Kemintiri play PTO?
> >
>
> Yes.
>
> > Can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary?
> >
>
> Yes. She can also target herself with it and benefit from it.
>
> Can Mata Hari play PTO as an Inner Circle Member? (i.e. can she burn
> someone of Capacity >5 with it?)

No. She can play cards that require sect or clan, not titles.

John
 
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> > Can Mata Hari play PTO as an Inner Circle Member? (i.e. can she burn
> > someone of Capacity >5 with it?)
>
> No. She can play cards that require sect or clan, not titles.
>
> John
>

Sorry, got my wires crossed.
 
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> >> There is no Camarilla. = The institute of the Camarilla is dismantled.
> >> Cards or effects tied to that sect are unusable, as the sect is gone.
> >> Camarilla Exemplary cannot be called, because there is no Camarilla.
> >
> > True enough. Then add "Mata can play cards that require Camarilla
> > as a Camarilla" and you're back in the game.
>
> I'm not trying to argue or something - just pointing out that it is easy
> to believe that once tha Camarilla has ceased to exist, effects that are
> related to it are no longer meaningful. In that sense, playing a card
> "as Camarilla" is still impossible, given how the Camarilla no longer
> exists.
>

The thing you're sticking on is that she is *pretending* to be Camarilla.
You can *pretend* to be all sorts of things that don't exist. If someone
printed a card that required Cappadocians, she could play it, even if the
Cappadocians don't actually exist.
 
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Colin McGuigan wrote:
> Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?

Why can you buy a Learjet for the price of a Beretta 9mm?
 
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Daneel wrote:

> Masquerading as a Camarilla vampire should not be of any use if the
> Camarilla no longer exists. Card text: "There is no Camarilla".

Key words: "Card text:". Not "RPG text:", not "Flavor text:", not "Play
the game as if thematically:" and not "Pretend that your cards are
actually characters in a fictional setting where:".

The card Fall of the Camarilla deals with the (card game term/rule)
sect: Camarilla, not some hypothetical imaginary organization that
someone likes to mentally roleplay the pictures on their cards as being
associated with whenever they play the card game.

There have certainly been technically-CCGs where you're supposed to
factor thematic and roleplaying decisions into adjudicating the effects
of playing cards (Dragonstorm, for instance), but this isn't one of
them.

> Bye,
>
> Daneel

-John Flournoy
 
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"Gregory Stuart Pettigrew" <etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in message news:20050228095230.F9958@sidehack.sat.gweep.net...
> Can Mata Hari play PTO as an Inner Circle Member? (i.e. can she burn
> someone of Capacity >5 with it?)

Mata Hari has no title-impersonating effects.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
 
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LSJ wrote:
> "Sten Düring" <yappo@netg.se> wrote in message news:1109600725.1ba6217186ea4c1ff94446dc3b94de11@teranews...
>
>>Fall of the Camarilla is in play:
>>Can merged Kemintiri play PTO?
>>Can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary?
>
>
> Yes.
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cc14903903b33066

Hmm. Why can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary with Fall
of the Camarilla in play when no other Camarilla vampire
may do so (ie being subject to the problems of the Camarilla
no longer existing)? Question really is if she plays cards
as ANY OTHER Camarilla vampire currently in play or not.

>
>
>>Next pair of questions (Fall of the Camarilla not in play):
>>
>>Can Merged Kemintiri play Blood Hunt on herself?
>
>
> No.

Why not? "She can play cards that require..." Doesn't say anything
about "play cards as a..."

The two pairs of questions targets the difference between "do X as an Y"
and "do X requiring Y".


>
>
>>Can a Primogen with Will of the Council play Blood Hunt
>>on itself?
>
>
> No.
>
>
>>My guesses are NO for Mata Hari and the Primogen as they
>>take on all aspects of being Camarilla and Prince
>>respectively.
>
>
> Correct reasoning. I think you meant "Kemintiri", however,
> since Mata Hari's question involves playing Camarilla
> Exemplary as a Camarilla vampire.

No, I meant Mata Hari and Primogen (with Will of the Council).
The primogen cannot target itself with a Blood Hunt because
it takes on all aspects of being a prince thus making itself
an illegal target.
Mata Hari tries playing Camarilla Exemplary as a Camarilla
vampire in a situation where the Camarilla no longer exists,
so I guess my question should really have been if she plays
cards as ANY OTHER Sect/Clan -member in play or if she can
actually play a card as being of a Sect/Clan even if an effect
disabling all other members from said Sect/Clan from playing
the same card.

>
>
>>I guess Kemintiri can indeed play Blood Hunt on herself,
>
>
> No. Blood Hunt she plays as a justicar cannot be played
> on her, since she is playing it as a justicar.

See question above. Card-text says "require" and not "as a".

Kemintiri is not alone. Matteus, Flesh Sculptor !Toreador also
has the ability to play cards that require an attribute without
including the "as if he/she was..."
I don't know if there are more of these, but at least there are
two vampires able to play cards that require Y without the added
extra "as if Y", and we have at least two vampires (Mata Hari and
Tatiana Stepanova, Alastor) playing cards that require Y as if Y
and one card (Will of the Council) enabling any Primogen to play
cards that require Y as if Y.

There is a sematic difference between those two groups, but I don't
know if it's supposed to be a semantic difference (ie, if I can do
X that require Y then I MUST do X that require Y as if I was Y no
matter if such text exists or not).

I hope I haven't been too unclear :)

Sten During
 
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"Sten Düring" <yappo@netg.se> wrote in message news:1109605772.55532b353f35d027c9512ab34f302874@teranews...
> LSJ wrote:
> > "Sten Düring" <yappo@netg.se> wrote in message news:1109600725.1ba6217186ea4c1ff94446dc3b94de11@teranews...
> >
> >>Fall of the Camarilla is in play:
> >>Can merged Kemintiri play PTO?
> >>Can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary?
> >
> > Yes.
> > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cc14903903b33066
>
> Hmm. Why can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary with Fall
> of the Camarilla in play when no other Camarilla vampire
> may do so

Every Camarilla vampire may do so.
The problem is that there are no other Camarilla vampires.
All vampires, being not Camarilla, therefore fail to meet
the requirements of the card.
Mata Hari's special enables her to meet the requirement,
however. Any vampire who meets the requirement can play
the card.

> (ie being subject to the problems of the Camarilla
> no longer existing)? Question really is if she plays cards
> as ANY OTHER Camarilla vampire currently in play or not.

No, that's not the question.
But the answer is, yes, she plays it like any other Camarilla
vampire would.

> >>Next pair of questions (Fall of the Camarilla not in play):
> >>
> >>Can Merged Kemintiri play Blood Hunt on herself?
> >
> > No.
>
> Why not? "She can play cards that require..." Doesn't say anything
> about "play cards as a..."

That is implicit.
Otherwise, she could not play them.

> The two pairs of questions targets the difference between "do X as an Y"
> and "do X requiring Y".

The difference is zero.

> Mata Hari tries playing Camarilla Exemplary as a Camarilla
> vampire in a situation where the Camarilla no longer exists,
> so I guess my question should really have been if she plays
> cards as ANY OTHER Sect/Clan -member in play or if she can
> actually play a card as being of a Sect/Clan even if an effect
> disabling all other members from said Sect/Clan from playing
> the same card.

She plays it as any other sect/clan member.
In this case, as a Camarilla.

> >>I guess Kemintiri can indeed play Blood Hunt on herself,
> >
> > No. Blood Hunt she plays as a justicar cannot be played
> > on her, since she is playing it as a justicar.
>
> See question above. Card-text says "require" and not "as a".

One cannot play a card that requires a justicar save that
one plays it as a justicar. That's what requires means.

> Kemintiri is not alone. Matteus, Flesh Sculptor !Toreador also
> has the ability to play cards that require an attribute without
> including the "as if he/she was..."

It is included implicitly, otherwise the card could not be played.

> I don't know if there are more of these, but at least there are
> two vampires able to play cards that require Y without the added
> extra "as if Y", and we have at least two vampires (Mata Hari and
> Tatiana Stepanova, Alastor) playing cards that require Y as if Y
> and one card (Will of the Council) enabling any Primogen to play
> cards that require Y as if Y.
>
> There is a sematic difference between those two groups, but I don't
> know if it's supposed to be a semantic difference (ie, if I can do
> X that require Y then I MUST do X that require Y as if I was Y no
> matter if such text exists or not).

The only difference is that, for the ones whose card space allows
it, the implicit "as a" is made explicit.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
 
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:24:07 -0500, LSJ <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote:

> "Sten Düring" <yappo@netg.se> wrote in message
> news:1109605772.55532b353f35d027c9512ab34f302874@teranews...
>> LSJ wrote:
>> > "Sten Düring" <yappo@netg.se> wrote in message
>> news:1109600725.1ba6217186ea4c1ff94446dc3b94de11@teranews...
>> >
>> >>Fall of the Camarilla is in play:
>> >>Can merged Kemintiri play PTO?
>> >>Can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary?
>> >
>> > Yes.
>> >
>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cc14903903b33066
>>
>> Hmm. Why can Mata Hari play Camarilla Exemplary with Fall
>> of the Camarilla in play when no other Camarilla vampire
>> may do so
>
> Every Camarilla vampire may do so.
> The problem is that there are no other Camarilla vampires.
> All vampires, being not Camarilla, therefore fail to meet
> the requirements of the card.
> Mata Hari's special enables her to meet the requirement,
> however. Any vampire who meets the requirement can play
> the card.

I think I just might've understood what Sten was getting at. Fall
of the Camarilla says: "... There is no Camarilla. ..." Meaning,
if there is no Camarilla, then how come any vampire can do
anything as a Camarilla vampire? Or better yet, how come something
tied to that sect can still be done?

The issue is that IMHO you wanted the text to have a punch at the
"Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead." sentence.

However, IF those sentences are to mean slightly different things, it
is possible to interpret them like this:

There is no Camarilla. = The institute of the Camarilla is dismantled.
Cards or effects tied to that sect are unusable, as the sect is gone.
Camarilla Exemplary cannot be called, because there is no Camarilla.

Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead. = As it says.

--
Bye,

Daneel
 
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"Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:eek:psmw4qvmfo6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
> I think I just might've understood what Sten was getting at. Fall
> of the Camarilla says: "... There is no Camarilla. ..." Meaning,
> if there is no Camarilla, then how come any vampire can do
> anything as a Camarilla vampire? Or better yet, how come something
> tied to that sect can still be done?

"How come" is "card text".

> The issue is that IMHO you wanted the text to have a punch at the
> "Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead." sentence.

But Fall doesn't see her as a Camarilla, since she isn't
playing Fall. Fall sees her as Independent. Fall has no effect
on Independent vampires.

> However, IF those sentences are to mean slightly different things, it
> is possible to interpret them like this:
>
> There is no Camarilla. = The institute of the Camarilla is dismantled.
> Cards or effects tied to that sect are unusable, as the sect is gone.
> Camarilla Exemplary cannot be called, because there is no Camarilla.

True enough. Then add "Mata can play cards that require Camarilla
as a Camarilla" and you're back in the game.

> Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead. = As it says.

Yes. And Mata is Independent (and not affected by the "Any Camarilla"
component of the card that is not a card she is playing as
a Camarilla).

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
 
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:08:06 -0500, LSJ <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote:

>> There is no Camarilla. = The institute of the Camarilla is dismantled.
>> Cards or effects tied to that sect are unusable, as the sect is gone.
>> Camarilla Exemplary cannot be called, because there is no Camarilla.
>
> True enough. Then add "Mata can play cards that require Camarilla
> as a Camarilla" and you're back in the game.

I'm not trying to argue or something - just pointing out that it is easy
to believe that once tha Camarilla has ceased to exist, effects that are
related to it are no longer meaningful. In that sense, playing a card
"as Camarilla" is still impossible, given how the Camarilla no longer
exists.

Not that I would mind it either way - I'm just trying to be helpful.

--
Going to bust some Tzimisce butt,

Daneel
 
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Colin McGuigan wrote:
> Emmit Svenson wrote:
>
> > Colin McGuigan wrote:
> >
> >>Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?
> >
> >
> > Why can you buy a Learjet for the price of a Beretta 9mm?
>
> How do you go about arsoning the Info Highway?

Someone left their firewall unattended?

John
 
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Emmit Svenson wrote:

> Colin McGuigan wrote:
>
>>Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?
>
>
> Why can you buy a Learjet for the price of a Beretta 9mm?

How do you go about arsoning the Info Highway?

--Colin McGuigan
 
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:36:25 -0500, Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
<etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote:

>> I'm not trying to argue or something - just pointing out that it is easy
>> to believe that once tha Camarilla has ceased to exist, effects that
>> are
>> related to it are no longer meaningful. In that sense, playing a card
>> "as Camarilla" is still impossible, given how the Camarilla no longer
>> exists.
>
> The thing you're sticking on is that she is *pretending* to be Camarilla.
> You can *pretend* to be all sorts of things that don't exist. If someone
> printed a card that required Cappadocians, she could play it, even if the
> Cappadocians don't actually exist.

The problem with this reasoning is that one vampire pretending to be
Camarilla does not reconstruct the dismantled organisation, the access to
whose resources grant the power behind the Camarilla cards. I don't think
any vampire can pretend to be any more Camarilla than Arika, for example.
Masquerading as a Camarilla vampire should not be of any use if the
Camarilla no longer exists. Card text: "There is no Camarilla".

--
Bye,

Daneel
 
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Daneel wrote:
> The problem with this reasoning is that one vampire pretending to be
> Camarilla does not reconstruct the dismantled organisation, the access to
> whose resources grant the power behind the Camarilla cards. I don't think
> any vampire can pretend to be any more Camarilla than Arika, for example.
> Masquerading as a Camarilla vampire should not be of any use if the
> Camarilla no longer exists. Card text: "There is no Camarilla".

How, in your worldview, is a copy of someone previously diablerized
allowed to be transferred back into the ready region?

Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?

Etc.

--Colin McGuigan
 
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"Colin McGuigan" <maguaSPAM@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:BLadnVzVjt4GDr7fRVn-gw@speakeasy.net...
> Daneel wrote:
>> The problem with this reasoning is that one vampire pretending to be
>> Camarilla does not reconstruct the dismantled organisation, the access
>> to
>> whose resources grant the power behind the Camarilla cards. I don't
>> think
>> any vampire can pretend to be any more Camarilla than Arika, for
>> example.
>> Masquerading as a Camarilla vampire should not be of any use if the
>> Camarilla no longer exists. Card text: "There is no Camarilla".
>
> How, in your worldview, is a copy of someone previously diablerized
> allowed to be transferred back into the ready region?
>
> Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?

Because due to the improving morality of society there is only one corrupt
police station left in the world........

must....

refrain....

from.....

laughing.....

can't.....


--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
 

pat

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"Colin McGuigan" <maguaSPAM@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:dvednRlxWK96VL7fRVn-ug@speakeasy.net...
> Emmit Svenson wrote:
>
>> Colin McGuigan wrote:
>>
>>>Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?
>>
>>
>> Why can you buy a Learjet for the price of a Beretta 9mm?
>
> How do you go about arsoning the Info Highway?
>
> --Colin McGuigan
>

Firebomb Al Gore's house?

- Pat
 
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Pat wrote:
> "Colin McGuigan" <maguaSPAM@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
> news:dvednRlxWK96VL7fRVn-ug@speakeasy.net...
>
>>Emmit Svenson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Colin McGuigan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?
>>>
>>>
>>>Why can you buy a Learjet for the price of a Beretta 9mm?
>>
>>How do you go about arsoning the Info Highway?
>>
>>--Colin McGuigan
>>
>
> Firebomb Al Gore's house?

I think that would require a Rewind Time, first. Unless I'm mistaken,
the Intarweb is now stored in two different houses.

--Colin McGuigan
 
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John Flournoy wrote:
> Key words: "Card text:". Not "RPG text:", not "Flavor text:", not
"Play
> the game as if thematically:" and not "Pretend that your cards are
> actually characters in a fictional setting where:".

John, if you want to play a card game without pictures, flavour text
and a fictional background, why not play those games that use the cards
that have written 7, 8, 9, 10, Q, K , A on them.

VTES becomes nothing, if you loose the background (i am not saying,
that the background decides rule questions!). And in reality thanks the
design team VTES is still very close to the background and the play
makes much sense in the background. "Disengage" is (and the picture
shows it) slipping away from a grapple. So it does prevent "Immortal
Grappel" but not "Thrown Gate". Is that random. No, its the background.
 
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Colin McGuigan wrote:
> How do you go about arsoning the Info Highway?

Who would get so drunk at a club called Nod that they gave a dog a
flamethrower? And how would the dog figure out how to use it?
 
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On 28 Feb 2005 15:02:59 -0800, John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Daneel wrote:
>
>> Masquerading as a Camarilla vampire should not be of any use if the
>> Camarilla no longer exists. Card text: "There is no Camarilla".
>
> Key words: "Card text:". Not "RPG text:", not "Flavor text:", not "Play
> the game as if thematically:" and not "Pretend that your cards are
> actually characters in a fictional setting where:".
>
> The card Fall of the Camarilla deals with the (card game term/rule)
> sect: Camarilla, not some hypothetical imaginary organization that
> someone likes to mentally roleplay the pictures on their cards as being
> associated with whenever they play the card game.
>
> There have certainly been technically-CCGs where you're supposed to
> factor thematic and roleplaying decisions into adjudicating the effects
> of playing cards (Dragonstorm, for instance), but this isn't one of
> them.

Okay, smartass, I wanted to provide a clear explanation so that everyone
can understand the issue. Quickie: if a card says "No bleeding is possible
as long as this card is in play.", then can Kalinda use her special text
to bleed at +1bleed at +1 stealth? Not really. No matter what you do, if a
card prohibits you from bleeding, you CANNOT bleed, no matter what. Do I
need to get any clearer than that?

--
Bye,

Daneel
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:00:11 -0600, Colin McGuigan
<maguaSPAM@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote:

> How, in your worldview, is a copy of someone previously diablerized
> allowed to be transferred back into the ready region?

Buzz off. For ONCE I want to maintain a civilized discussion. A mistake
I won't repreat. 4$$ h013!!11!

--
Bye,

Daneel