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Spells every wizard should know

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Anonymous
August 27, 2005 4:50:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

As part of my "spell kits" project (see my recent article), I'm working
on lists of spells that just about every wizard should know. I've put
together a tentative list for generalist wizards and one for each spell
school (for specialists or wizards who favor the school). Some of the
choices were difficult, and I'm not sure that I know the "best" wizard
spells of every school and level, so I welcome suggestions to improve
the lists. If you suggest a change, please explain why you think it's a
better choice than mine. (I personally favored spells that are generally
useful, then strong combat spells, then strong defenses, then utility
spells.)

Spells every wizard should know:
0 detect magic (div)
1 magic missile (evoc)
2 mirror image (illus)
3 dispel magic (abj)
4 dimension door (conj)
5 wall of force (evoc)
6 disintegrate (trans)
7 limited wish (univ)
8 mind blank (abj)
9 wish (univ)

Abjuration:
0 resistance
1 shield
2 resist energy
3 dispel magic
4 stoneskin
5 mage's private sanctum
6 dispel magic, greater
7 spell turning
8 mind blank
9 mage's disjunction

Conjuration:
0 acid splash
1 mage armor
2 glitterdust
3 stinking cloud
4 dimension door
5 teleport
6 acid fog
7 teleport, greater
8 maze
9 gate

Divination:
0 detect magic
1 identify
2 see invisibility
3 clairaudience/clairvoyance
4 scrying
5 contact other plane
6 analyze dweomer
7 scrying, greater
8 prying eyes, greater
9 foresight

Enchantment:
0 daze
1 charm person
2 hideous laughter
3 hold person
4 confusion
5 dominate person
6 heroism, greater
7 hold person, mass
8 binding
9 dominate monster

Evocation:
0 ray of frost
1 magic missile
2 scorching ray
3 fireball
4 ice storm
5 wall of force
6 contingency
7 forcecage
8 shout, greater
9 meteor swarm

Illusion:
0 ghost sound
1 color spray
2 mirror image
3 displacement
4 invisibility, greater
5 persistent image
6 mislead
7 project image
8 shadow evocation, greater
9 shades

Necromancy:
0 touch of fatigue
1 chill touch
2 spectral hand
3 vampiric touch
4 enervation
5 waves of fatigue
6 circle of death
7 finger of death
8 horrid wilting
9 astral projection

Transmutation:
0 mage hand
1 enlarge person
2 knock
3 haste
4 polymorph
5 overland flight
6 disintegrate
7 ethereal jaunt
8 polymorph any object
9 time stop
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

More about : spells wizard

Anonymous
August 27, 2005 4:50:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> As part of my "spell kits" project (see my recent article), I'm working
> on lists of spells that just about every wizard should know. I've put
> together a tentative list for generalist wizards and one for each spell
> school (for specialists or wizards who favor the school). Some of the
> choices were difficult, and I'm not sure that I know the "best" wizard
> spells of every school and level, so I welcome suggestions to improve
> the lists. If you suggest a change, please explain why you think it's a
> better choice than mine. (I personally favored spells that are generally
> useful, then strong combat spells, then strong defenses, then utility
> spells.)

Huh. In a way, you're really doing "Spells every SORCERER should know",
since they get less of a selection.


> Spells every wizard should know:
> 0 detect magic (div)

Agreed, although Read Magic can be very important if you're not maxing
out Spellcraft (but who doesn't?)


> 1 magic missile (evoc)

Yeah, pretty standard fare if you have access to it.


> 2 mirror image (illus)

Another biggie. This is certainly on the sorcerer "must have" list.


> 3 dispel magic (abj)

Until Greater Dispel Magic is available, yes, this is key.


> 4 dimension door (conj)

Agreed. Major ass-saver.


> 5 wall of force (evoc)

Why Wall of Force? There is an Evoker IMC and he hasn't sprinted for it
yet -- in fact, he just got is 10th spellcaster level and still hasn't
chosen it.


> 6 disintegrate (trans)

Natch


> 7 limited wish (univ)
> 8 mind blank (abj)
> 9 wish (univ)

Yeah, all good.

The other lists are equally interesting. I'll only comment on things I
disagree with:


> Conjuration:
> 0 acid splash
> 1 mage armor
> 2 glitterdust
> 3 stinking cloud
> 4 dimension door
> 5 teleport
> 6 acid fog
> 7 teleport, greater
> 8 maze
> 9 gate

Three teleport-style spells here... The thing is, once you've got
access to Greater Teleport, Teleport is pretty useless other than as an
emergency backup. I'd say Teleport when you first get it, then change
it to something else the GT becomes available. But maybe I'm in
Sorcerer mode.

Umm, everything else checks out.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:04:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
>> 3 dispel magic (abj)

> Until Greater Dispel Magic is available, yes, this is key.

Speaking of /greater dispel,/ I was torn between that and /disintegrate/
for the 6th-level must-have spell. I went with the latter because it's
necessary to destroy force effects, but it's a tough call. Every wizard
really should have both.

> The other lists are equally interesting. I'll only comment on things
> I disagree with:

>> Conjuration:
>> 0 acid splash
>> 1 mage armor
>> 2 glitterdust
>> 3 stinking cloud
>> 4 dimension door
>> 5 teleport
>> 6 acid fog
>> 7 teleport, greater
>> 8 maze
>> 9 gate

> Three teleport-style spells here... The thing is, once you've got
> access to Greater Teleport, Teleport is pretty useless other than as
> an emergency backup. I'd say Teleport when you first get it, then
> change it to something else the GT becomes available. But maybe I'm
> in Sorcerer mode.

Right. Every arcanist (and psychic) needs dimension door, and it's a
good idea to have at least one of the long-range teleports. You could
probably skip the 5th-level teleport, but there isn't a great alternate
choice. Maybe cloudkill, lesser planar binding, or wall of stone? I
figure most conjurers will learn teleport first and later upgrade to
greater teleport. (If you're a wizard, you get to keep both.)
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Related resources
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:27:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Spells every wizard should know:
> 0 detect magic (div)
> 1 magic missile (evoc)
> 2 mirror image (illus)
> 3 dispel magic (abj)
> 4 dimension door (conj)
> 5 wall of force (evoc)
> 6 disintegrate (trans)
> 7 limited wish (univ)
> 8 mind blank (abj)
> 9 wish (univ)

Here's a slightly different list -- 3rd and 6th level were tough choices
for me. Is this a better "universal spellbook" list?

0 detect magic (div)
1 magic missile (evoc)
2 mirror image (illus)
3 haste (trans)
4 dimension door (conj)
5 wall of force (evoc)
6 greater dispel magic (abj)
7 limited wish (univ)
8 mind blank (abj)
9 wish (univ)
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 2:56:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <slrndh107q.emt.bradd+news@szonye.com>, bradd+news@szonye.com
says...

> >> Conjuration:
> >> 0 acid splash
> >> 1 mage armor
> >> 2 glitterdust
> >> 3 stinking cloud
> >> 4 dimension door
> >> 5 teleport
> >> 6 acid fog
> >> 7 teleport, greater
> >> 8 maze
> >> 9 gate
> >
> > Three teleport-style spells here... The thing is, once you've got
> > access to Greater Teleport, Teleport is pretty useless other than as
> > an emergency backup. I'd say Teleport when you first get it, then
> > change it to something else the GT becomes available. But maybe I'm
> > in Sorcerer mode.
>
> Right. Every arcanist (and psychic) needs dimension door, and it's a
> good idea to have at least one of the long-range teleports. You could
> probably skip the 5th-level teleport, but there isn't a great alternate
> choice. Maybe cloudkill, lesser planar binding, or wall of stone?

Lesser planar binding isn't all that great, I think.

You're a 9th-level wizard (or a 10th-level sorcerer) and you're calling
6 HD critters. Eh. Okay, it's kind of neat to be able to get your own
personal succubus slave, but the cleric has been doing it for 2 levels
now (although he has to pay :)  ), and 2 levels from now, both of you
will be calling trumpet archons and glabrezus, with the 6th-level planar
binding/ally.

I'd probably take lesser planar binding at first opportunity if I was
playing a summoner because it's quite a signature spell, but for
practicaly usefulness on the 5th-level Conj list, I'd say teleport blows
it out of the water.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 3:00:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <slrndh0ocg.d7m.bradd+news@szonye.com>, bradd+news@szonye.com
says...

> Divination:
> 0 detect magic
> 1 identify
> 2 see invisibility
> 3 clairaudience/clairvoyance
> 4 scrying
> 5 contact other plane
> 6 analyze dweomer
> 7 scrying, greater
> 8 prying eyes, greater
> 9 foresight

I don't know what exactly greater prying eyes do, so I'm kind of talking
out of my ass, but have you considered moment of prescience? I've been
very impressed with how +21 to AC saved a wizard NPC IMC from being
skewered by a Spirited Charging lance-wielding Power Attacking evil-
smiting paladin PC, twice. And it works for saves and skill checks too.
Very versatile.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 3:00:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> Divination:
>> 0 detect magic
>> 1 identify
>> 2 see invisibility
>> 3 clairaudience/clairvoyance
>> 4 scrying
>> 5 contact other plane
>> 6 analyze dweomer
>> 7 scrying, greater
>> 8 prying eyes, greater
>> 9 foresight

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> I don't know what exactly greater prying eyes do ....

Roughly speaking, it gives you a dozen arcane eyes with /true seeing./
It's not quite that good, since they're tiny scouts that report back to
you, rather than sensors that you can see through directly, but it's
still a very effective scouting and spying spell IME.

> ... but have you considered moment of prescience? I've been very
> impressed with how +21 to AC saved a wizard NPC IMC from being
> skewered by a Spirited Charging lance-wielding Power Attacking evil-
> smiting paladin PC, twice. And it works for saves and skill checks
> too. Very versatile.

Hm. I've never been impressed with the spell, but I've never seen
anybody use it so I don't know whether to trust my gut feeling. I assume
that it's mostly used like contingency: If something catches you off
guard, you take a huge bonus to AC or saves for one throw so that you
can live long enough to blow the other guy away. (You can also use it
like a free "true strike to anything," but that seems less useful than
the defensive applications.) It's a cool spell, but I think /discern
location/ and /greater prying eyes/ are more generally useful.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:54:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:15:24 -0400, Werebat wrote:

> Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> Spells every wizard should know:
>> 0 detect magic (div)
>
> Agreed, although Read Magic can be very important if you're not maxing
> out Spellcraft (but who doesn't?)

For a wizard this spell is so important that they should not just know
it, they should master it so that they don't need a spellbook for it.

Which is probably why every wizard gets spell mastery for read magic for
free.

--
Phoenix
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 8:59:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> chaoslight@gmail.com wrote:
> > Sure, but you _need_ a teleport effect from levels 9-12 as well! And
> > now that Teleport doesn't potentially kill you (unlike in 2nd Ed),
> > Teleport is a very nice spell.
>
> It can still kill you. The odds are low, but if you roll a mishap, you
> take 1d10 damage and re-roll with a major penalty. You can roll a mishap
> more than once (and it's not too unlikely).

Eh, it's not worth worrying about, IME. 2d10 damage isn't something a
level 9+ party ought to be worried about, and the odds of getting 3 or
more mishaps is less than 0.2% for a "viewed once" location. For a
false destination, it's still only 6%.

> > In fact, I daresay even a high-level wizard might prefer to memorize
> > two Teleports instead of one Greater Teleport.
>
> I doubt it; you can still get lost and possibly killed with the regular
> teleports.

I've had plenty of Teleporting parties, and while there _has_ been
off-target teleporting, I've never seen a case where the second
teleport also failed. IMO the odds in favour are just too great to be
worried about the small chance of failure.

YMMV.

> Anyway, thanks for your comments! They've been helpful so far.

Right back atcha.

Laszlo
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 3:34:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

chaoslight@gmail.com wrote:
> Sure, but you _need_ a teleport effect from levels 9-12 as well! And
> now that Teleport doesn't potentially kill you (unlike in 2nd Ed),
> Teleport is a very nice spell.

It can still kill you. The odds are low, but if you roll a mishap, you
take 1d10 damage and re-roll with a major penalty. You can roll a mishap
more than once (and it's not too unlikely).

> In fact, I daresay even a high-level wizard might prefer to memorize
> two Teleports instead of one Greater Teleport.

I doubt it; you can still get lost and possibly killed with the regular
teleports.

Anyway, thanks for your comments! They've been helpful so far.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:55:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:28:57 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> > Aside from Shapechange and Dominate Monster I've been underwhelmed by
> > the 9th level Sor/Wiz spells. Shapechange kicks arse, IME.
>
> I think the 9th-level spells have gotten better in 3.5. Anyway, I listed
> /wish/ as my everyone-has-it spell not because it sees regular use, but
> because I expect that every high-level wizard /will/ learn it.

I agree every wizard will get it sooner or later, but I don't think
they'll use it very often - if they're selfish I can't see them
casting it no more than five times, ever.

Meteor Swarm is actually useful now, though not that powerful most of
the time (resistance fire damage is far too coomon for that,
especially as each blast's damage is resisted seperately).

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:55:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> Anyway, I listed /wish/ as my everyone-has-it spell not because it
>> sees regular use, but because I expect that every high-level wizard
>> /will/ learn it.

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> I agree every wizard will get it sooner or later, but I don't think
> they'll use it very often - if they're selfish I can't see them
> casting it no more than five times, ever.

Well, my end goal is a tool for prepping spellbooks, so I'm more
interested in which spells every wizard should /know/ rather than the
spells they're likely to use most often.

By the way, I just noticed that I overlooked permanency (because I
didn't check the Universal school closely enough). Do you think it would
be a better candidate for the "must-know" 5th-level spell, instead of
/wall of force/?

> Meteor Swarm is actually useful now, though not that powerful most of
> the time (resistance fire damage is far too coomon for that,
> especially as each blast's damage is resisted seperately).

It's still not bad.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:55:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Meteor Swarm is actually useful now, though not that powerful most of
> the time (resistance fire damage is far too coomon for that,
> especially as each blast's damage is resisted seperately).

Energy Substitution thus becomes a more useful metamagic feat.
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 12:51:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:50:24 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> 5 wall of force

> 7 forcecage

Never had any real use for these. I've never found the 5th level
evocation spells very exciting, and of the 7th level ones I've got the
most use out of Prismatic Spray.

> 9 time stop

In the new improved v3.5 I've found Shapechange more generally useful
than Time Stop. I think this is mainly because Time Stop is only
useful for one encounter in the day, whereas Shapechange is good for
all of them.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 12:51:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> 5 wall of force
>> 7 forcecage

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Never had any real use for these. I've never found the 5th level
> evocation spells very exciting, and of the 7th level ones I've got the
> most use out of Prismatic Spray.

Our group uses /wall of force/ quite a bit for crowd control (and
covering retreats, when necessary). Likewise for /forcecage,/ although I
was tempted to list /prismatic spray/ instead. I'm personally not too
fond of the rainbow spells, mainly because the mechanics are so quirky.

>> 9 time stop

> In the new improved v3.5 I've found Shapechange more generally useful
> than Time Stop. I think this is mainly because Time Stop is only
> useful for one encounter in the day, whereas Shapechange is good for
> all of them.

Yeah, /shapechange/ is and has always been an excellent spell. It's not
quite all-day, though -- duration is 10 min/level. I don't think you can
beat /time stop/ in a campaign that favors alpha strikes; indeed, it's
arguably broken in that environment. In a by-the-book campaign, however,
/shapechange/ may be the better spell.

This is one of those cases where I think all wizards will learn both
(and probably etherealness too). Which would you learn first if you were
playing a transmuter?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:53:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> Horrid Wilting is no use at all if you dropped Necromancy for your
> specialist.

Which is quite common, in my experience. There are a few necromancy
spells that are painful to give up -- /horrid wilting/ is one of them --
but overall I think it's still one of the easiest schools to abandon.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:55:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> That said, my Loremaster uses Polar Ray as her 8th level direct damage
> spell (when she bothers with one), because she's already got lots of
> area effect, so something a little more precise is useful sometimes.

/Polar ray/ is OK, but unfortunately cold resistance is common, and the
same foes you'd use it on to avoid Reflex saves are also the guys with
high touch AC. Since you need to deal with firing into melee, cover,
etc., a smart rogue or monk could easily force you to miss with a ray.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 3:44:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:

> Spells every wizard should know:
> 0 detect magic (div)

possibly Prestidigitation. usually the divine casters can handle the
detect magic.

> 1 magic missile (evoc)
> 2 mirror image (illus)

Glitterdust, Web, Levitate, Invisibility are all far more useful. My
first choice used to be web, but glitterdust has replaced it.
Glitterdust it useful throughought a carreer, where web is more
situational and looses it's effect against big tough critters.

> 3 dispel magic (abj)

I don't really see this being memorized that much, usually the cleric
ends up taking a few of these. Fireball or Lightning Bolt are usual
fare for 1st spells for sorcerers & wizards. Fly is another contender,
which usually comes right after.

> 4 dimension door (conj)

DD? I'm rather fond of Polymorph, seems a heck of a lot more useful to
me. Ice Storm is also extremly useful as it has no SR, I'd probably
pick Ice Storm, then Polymorph as necessary spells.

> 5 wall of force (evoc)

Eh. Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V (take a look at the
Acheri), or Teleport are all way above wall of force on must have
spells. Dominate Person is usually a first for anyone interested in
charming stuff too.

> 6 disintegrate (trans)

This is a good one against undead, but it's rather limited. Antimagic
Field is a real must for a PC, for a loaner NPC it's not very good
though. Planar Binding is again a far better spell than disintegrate.

> 7 limited wish (univ)

Very good, but I find people shy away from it because of the xp cost.
It's of more use to a sorcerer as well. Prismatic Spray seems to be
the spell of choice here.

> 8 mind blank (abj)

This is a real must have spell, but there's another here as well,
Polymorph any object.

> 9 wish (univ)
>

Good again, but pales in comparison to Shape Change.


> Abjuration:
> 1 shield

I'm not sure this is as much a must as protection from foo. Of course
that's usually the cleric's job. So shield it is.

> 4 stoneskin

Not as useful as it once was. I find Dimentional Anchor seeing far
more use.

> 6 dispel magic, greater

Again, Antimagic Field is far more useful.

> 9 mage's disjunction

Imprisonment. or Prismatic Sphere - depending how Prismatic Sphere
actually works. Most wizards are loth to destroy magic items.

> Conjuration:
> 3 stinking cloud

I'd never take stinking cloud over summon monster III - seeing as how
you can summon a dretch which can cast stinking cloud and then fight.

> 4 dimension door

I'd still find Black Tentacles better, but it's a toss up.

> 5 teleport

It's hard to argue with teleport, but Summon Monster V does a pretty
good job.

> 6 acid fog

I'd rather have planar binding, but never had anyone use acid fog, so
no idea how good it is.

> 7 teleport, greater

Not really worth it. Magnificent Mansion is a much better choice


> Divination:
> 1 identify

Questionable this is really all that useful but to a PC. Comprehend
Languages maybe for a more typical NPC wizard.

> 6 analyze dweomer

Both the other choices at this level are very useful as well. It's a
tough decision.

> 8 prying eyes, greater

Discern Location is much more useful. That was one of the spells that
was used to take down my lich (finding his phylactary).

> Enchantment:
> 1 charm person

I think I see more use out of Sleep now, with the way charm works. But
charm keeps it's value at higher level, where sleep doesn't.

> 3 hold person

Suggestion. Hold Person is for those clerics again.

> 4 confusion

Confusion is f'd up now. Charm monster is probably better.

> 8 binding

Irresistible Dance has always been a favorite here, but Binding might
be better. Power Word Stun is another possible contender.

> Evocation:

> 3 fireball

I like lightining bolt better, but it's just personal preference.

> 5 wall of force

Not too sure about this one, only other one here is cone of cold so
either way it's o.k.

> 7 forcecage

I find prismatic spray taken more often, but forecage is pretty
freeking good too.

> Illusion:
> 2 mirror image

So many good ones here it's a tough choice. Invisiblity, Blur,
Hypnotic Pattern are all contenders.

> 4 invisibility, greater

Another tough one. This is a great spell, but I find Phantasmal Killer
a favorite, and Shadow Conjuration is a good one for
Sorcers/Illusionists.

> 5 persistent image

Yet another tough one, with Shadow Evocation there.

> 6 mislead

Very nice, but Shadow Walk beats the socks of this for utility.

> 8 shadow evocation, greater

Telekinetic Sphere, but a toss up again.

> 9 shades

Weird!

>
> Necromancy:
> 0 touch of fatigue

I've found disrupt undead a better spell, especially if you've got a
good character.

> 1 chill touch

No way, Ray of Enfeeblement all the way.

> 2 spectral hand

Tough choice here. Command undead is pretty useful if you are going
that way. False life & Ghoul Touch are pretty good too - of course
you really want spectral hand if you are going for the touch type
spells.

> 4 enervation

As much as Animate Dead is a staple here, and Bestow Curse is a very
powerful spell, I have to agree enervation takes the cake.

> 5 waves of fatigue

Magic Jar!

> Transmutation:
> 0 mage hand

I've seen mending have more use, but it's a toss up.

> 2 knock

As much use as this is, there are other ways to get things open. I'd
take levitate over it every day.

> 3 haste

Not as useful as it once was, Fly is more useful.

> 7 ethereal jaunt

Strange you choose Limited wish for all, then pass over it here...

> 8 polymorph any object
> 9 time stop

Shapechange! Shapechange! Shapechange!

- Justisaur
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 4:45:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:27:54 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> > Meteor Swarm is actually useful now, though not that powerful most of
> > the time (resistance fire damage is far too coomon for that,
> > especially as each blast's damage is resisted seperately).
>
> Energy Substitution thus becomes a more useful metamagic feat.

However, there are plenty of creatures with resistance to any given
element, and Energy Substitution only lets you convert to one other
element. This is nice, especially if you're a sorcerer, but I'm not
sure it's a feat slot 'nice'.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
August 29, 2005 11:14:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:50:24 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> dared speak in front of ME:

>As part of my "spell kits" project (see my recent article), I'm working
>on lists of spells that just about every wizard should know.

Y'know, between "every wizard should know" and "necromancy is an easy
school to drop for specailists," I've decided the magic system is
broken.

Ideally there wouldn't be a universal spellbook, and the only bias for
specialization choice (whether which to specialize in or which to
drop) should be campaign style.

/end raving
--
The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out
the conservative adopts them.
Samuel Clemens, "Notebook," 1935

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
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Anonymous
August 29, 2005 11:34:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

First, thanks for the feedback. I've saved a copy for reference. Below
are miscellaneous clarifications and comments.

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> Spells every wizard should know:
>> 0 detect magic (div)

Justisaur wrote:
> possibly Prestidigitation. usually the divine casters can handle the
> detect magic.

I should've left level 0 off the list anyway, since wizards get all of
the spells for free. I guess it's still useful for sorcerers, who do all
know /detect magic/ IME.

>> 2 mirror image (illus)

> Glitterdust, Web, Levitate, Invisibility are all far more useful.

While all of those are good spells, the most critical 2nd-level spells
are /mirror image, glitterdust,/ and /see invisibility./ The other
spells you list are all good, but you can do without them, and some of
them eventually become obsolete. OK, /mirror image/ isn't absolutely
necessary, but nothing else comes even close for avoiding targeted
attacks. I think /glitterdust/ might edge it out overall, with its
two-pronged debuff.

>> 3 dispel magic (abj)
>> 6 disintegrate (trans)

I later decided to switch these out for /haste/ and /greater dispel./
You're right that clerics make better dispellers overall, but I think
all wizards should know at least one dispel, especially NPC wizards (who
don't necessarily keep a cleric handy like PCs do).

> Antimagic Field is a real must for a PC ....

It always struck me as a cure worse than the disease.

>> 4 dimension door (conj)

> DD?

Yeah, best get-out-of-jail-free spell there is. It's a good choice for
Spell Mastery too. With Silent Spell, no non-magical prison can hold
you.

>> 5 wall of force (evoc)

> Eh.

Going by experience here; I think it's the most-used 5th-level spell in
our group. Maybe we're just unusually fond of crowd control.

> Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V ....

I tend to overlook the calling and summoning spells, just because
they're a bookkeeping hassle. The players have never really developed
good conjuring tactics either (partly because I don't handle them well,
probably).

>> 9 mage's disjunction

> Imprisonment. or Prismatic Sphere - depending how Prismatic Sphere
> actually works. Most wizards are loth to destroy magic items.

Hm. All of them have drawbacks or situational value. I chose this
because its situational value is most significant IMO. When something
absolutely, positively needs dispelling, it's the only tool for the job.
Too risky for a general combat spell, though.

>> 6 acid fog

> I'd rather have planar binding, but never had anyone use acid fog, so
> no idea how good it is.

This one's tentative. It looks great on paper, offering both crowd
control (as solid fog) and moderate acid damage.

>> 8 prying eyes, greater

> Discern Location is much more useful.

Yeah, it's a tough call. The main reason I chose prying eyes is that
/mind blank/ trumps /discern location./ More generally, if something's
important enough to find it with /DL,/ it's important enough to hide it
behind an anti-divination ward.

In contrast, /greater prying eyes/ offers great scouting and spying
utility. While you'll still miss out on the /mind blanked/ stuff, you'll
get valuable recon on the mooks and lieutenants.

>> 9 shades

> Weird!

This was a tough call for me. While /weird/ is a big take-out spell, it
has /PK/'s wacky double-save mechanic, which isn't that hard to beat.

>> 1 chill touch

> No way, Ray of Enfeeblement all the way.

This goes with spectral hand, which isn't very useful unless you have
some touch spells to cast from it. If I droped this for enfeeblment, I'd
also swap out spectral hand for /false life./

>> 5 waves of fatigue

> Magic Jar!

That was my first pick, until I read the spell description carefully.
It's too easy for magic jar to go wrong, and it's a bit difficult to get
full use out of it.

>> 3 haste

> Not as useful as it once was, Fly is more useful.

I actually like the new haste better. Especially when our bard follows
it up with inspire courage and inspire greatness!

>> 7 ethereal jaunt

> Strange you choose Limited wish for all, then pass over it here...

Limited wish is a Universal spell, not a Transmutation.

>> 9 time stop

> Shapechange! Shapechange! Shapechange!

Yeah, I've already changed that one in my notes.

Thanks again!
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 12:44:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Marshall <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> wrote:
> The larger area is rarely useful ....

Because you're stupid.

> So when are you actually going to use this spell?

It works fine for us. Maybe you're just stupid.

> I suppose if you are attacking a thieves guild or a monastery and
> manage to draw them all into an open field it my have a single use.

Or ogres. They're stupid too.

>> Have you ever thought of dropping the AoE spells _before_ the
>> meleer's close?

> Sure. Now you're back to all your encounters being at 300'+ range.

You don't need 300 feet -- unless you're stupid.

> IME, you've got MAYBE one round before your meleers are mixing it up.

And?

>> Greater Shout does sonic, which affects just about everything, with
>> extra damage to some creatures, and stuns the victims.

> So it has the effect of a 4th level spell given a piss-poor AoE. Sculpt
> spell is +1 level and has the same effect.

No, it's not like a 4th-level spell, because by then 4th-level attack
spells are almost entirely useless. You don't seem to understand this
whole math thing. Probably because you're stupid.

>> I don't know that Greater Shout is superior to Horrid Wilting, but
>> it's not inferior, and as they're of different schools, this is fine.

> It needs its damage cap upped, badly.

Not really. It does other stuff too.

You could use a thinking cap, though.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 3:05:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:55:34 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > That said, my Loremaster uses Polar Ray as her 8th level direct damage
> > spell (when she bothers with one), because she's already got lots of
> > area effect, so something a little more precise is useful sometimes.
>
> /Polar ray/ is OK, but unfortunately cold resistance is common, and the
> same foes you'd use it on to avoid Reflex saves are also the guys with
> high touch AC. Since you need to deal with firing into melee, cover,
> etc., a smart rogue or monk could easily force you to miss with a ray.

My main targets are monsters with good Fort saves. For those without
(which includes rogues), I use Disintegrate. Yes, I could still miss,
but if I don't... If I knew I was hunting monks or rogues I'd gear up
with some Quickened True Strikes to solve the problem. :) 

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 3:05:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> /Polar ray/ is OK, but unfortunately cold resistance is common, and the
>> same foes you'd use it on to avoid Reflex saves are also the guys with
>> high touch AC. Since you need to deal with firing into melee, cover,
>> etc., a smart rogue or monk could easily force you to miss with a ray.

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> My main targets are monsters with good Fort saves. For those without
> (which includes rogues), I use Disintegrate. Yes, I could still miss,
> but if I don't... If I knew I was hunting monks or rogues I'd gear up
> with some Quickened True Strikes to solve the problem. :) 

Heh. I'm just so bad at playing wizards, especially high-level wizards.
That just didn't occur to me, but at that level of course you can easily
afford a few 5th-level slots on QTSes. Especially since 5th-level spells
are a bit weak anyway.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 3:05:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" wrote:
>
> Heh. I'm just so bad at playing wizards, especially high-level wizards.

And yet you can still kick Marshall's ass up and down
the schoolyard on the topic.

Heh.

-Bluto
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 4:04:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:12:04 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Bradd wrote:
> >> /Polar ray/ is OK, but unfortunately cold resistance is common, and the
> >> same foes you'd use it on to avoid Reflex saves are also the guys with
> >> high touch AC. Since you need to deal with firing into melee, cover,
> >> etc., a smart rogue or monk could easily force you to miss with a ray.
>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > My main targets are monsters with good Fort saves. For those without
> > (which includes rogues), I use Disintegrate. Yes, I could still miss,
> > but if I don't... If I knew I was hunting monks or rogues I'd gear up
> > with some Quickened True Strikes to solve the problem. :) 
>
> Heh. I'm just so bad at playing wizards, especially high-level wizards.
> That just didn't occur to me, but at that level of course you can easily
> afford a few 5th-level slots on QTSes. Especially since 5th-level spells
> are a bit weak anyway.

It's not my usual tactic, BTW - too specific. Usually I take a
quickened Shield or MM spell or two, and a quickened fireball or Haste
if I think I can afford it (they compete with Prismatic Spray and DBF,
though).

IME Disintegrate, while not the fight-stopper it used to be, will put
a serious dent in anything that fails its save, and its precision
means you can use it in very tight environments. Unlike Flesh to Stone
you get to score the loot, too.

Chain Lightning is quite a nice evocation spell for 6th level, as it
affects lots of targets without frying friends.

Oh yeah - I completely agree with your list having Mind Blank there as
the 8th level spell for all wizards. The only downside is not getting
some aid from your allies buff effects (morale bonuses, etc. tend to
be mind-affecting).

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 4:04:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Oh yeah - I completely agree with your list having Mind Blank there as
> the 8th level spell for all wizards. The only downside is not getting
> some aid from your allies buff effects (morale bonuses, etc. tend to
> be mind-affecting).

It's a critical spell for the scrying defense alone. In my last high-
level campaign, it was one of the few spells that the PCs kept up at all
times. (Death ward was another.)
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 4:09:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:51:15 +0200, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> It's an 8th-level spell that does d6/level damage. At 15th, that's 15d6.
> A scorching ray does 12d6, and it's 2nd level! An Empowered scorching
> ray (4th-level) does (the equivalent of) 18d6. OK, that's with a feat,
> and three rays means that energy resistance screws scorching ray three
> times as much as it does polar ray, and fire resistance/immunity might
> be more common than cold... OTOH, three rays also means it's less of an
> all-or-nothing thing vs. high touch AC. And without resistances, a
> Maximized Empowered scorching ray does more damage at 13th level than a
> polar ray does at 25th!

The 3xresistance is a real killer, IME. Energy Resistance 20+ is
fairly common in high-level monsters, and that stops Scorching Ray
dead, and messes an Empowered or Maximised one up pretty badly, too.

> It seems to me that it's a poor 8th-level spell if a 2nd-level one and a
> couple of metamagics can give it a run for its money...

People talk a lot about Empower and Maximise, but I've never seen them
used yet. Everyone who's played an arcanist so far has decided they
cost too much.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 4:09:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> People talk a lot about Empower and Maximise, but I've never seen them
> used yet. Everyone who's played an arcanist so far has decided they
> cost too much.

Our new wizard cohort has been using empowered magic missiles lately.
They're nothing amazing, but they get the job done.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 4:34:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> First, thanks for the feedback. I've saved a copy for reference. Below
> are miscellaneous clarifications and comments.
>
> Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>>> Spells every wizard should know:
>>> 0 detect magic (div)
>
> Justisaur wrote:
>> possibly Prestidigitation. usually the divine casters can handle the
>> detect magic.
>
> I should've left level 0 off the list anyway, since wizards get all of
> the spells for free. I guess it's still useful for sorcerers, who do
> all know /detect magic/ IME.

Still useful. Just treat it as a "spells every wizard should memorise" for
0th-level, especially as you don't get 0th-level bonus spells.

>>> 5 wall of force (evoc)
>
>> Eh.
>
> Going by experience here; I think it's the most-used 5th-level spell
> in our group. Maybe we're just unusually fond of crowd control.

If you are, you're not alone - our group's wizard gets an awful lot of use
out of it, for crowd control and sometimes general utility (most recently,
as a deflection barrier for an avalanche).

--
Mark.
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 4:50:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <ugu5h1lb0rnjvs2fpsd4v35bivfba7fp6u@4ax.com>,
rboleyn@paradise.net.nz says...

> > It's an 8th-level spell that does d6/level damage. At 15th, that's 15d6.
> > A scorching ray does 12d6, and it's 2nd level! An Empowered scorching
> > ray (4th-level) does (the equivalent of) 18d6. OK, that's with a feat,
> > and three rays means that energy resistance screws scorching ray three
> > times as much as it does polar ray, and fire resistance/immunity might
> > be more common than cold... OTOH, three rays also means it's less of an
> > all-or-nothing thing vs. high touch AC. And without resistances, a
> > Maximized Empowered scorching ray does more damage at 13th level than a
> > polar ray does at 25th!
>
> The 3xresistance is a real killer, IME. Energy Resistance 20+ is
> fairly common in high-level monsters, and that stops Scorching Ray
> dead, and messes an Empowered or Maximised one up pretty badly, too.

Perhaps. But against such critters, is even 25d6-20 from the polar ray
really worth the 8th-level slot? IME, when faced with significant energy
resistance, spellcasters go for non-energy spells.

> > It seems to me that it's a poor 8th-level spell if a 2nd-level one and a
> > couple of metamagics can give it a run for its money...
>
> People talk a lot about Empower and Maximise, but I've never seen them
> used yet. Everyone who's played an arcanist so far has decided they
> cost too much.

Empower's OK for an evoker (or anyone else who often uses fistfuls o'
d6), I think. Maximize is probably a bit too expensive. And I think
they're both better for sorcerers than wizards, since if you have
fireball, with Empower you also have a decent evocation for your 5th-
level slots, and can use your 5th-level spells known for something else.

But what you say is itself a rather damning commentary on polar ray,
isn't it? People don't take Empower and Maximize because they're too
expensive, and polar ray is much like an Empowered Maximized 2nd-level
spell...


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 6:48:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> As part of my "spell kits" project (see my recent article), I'm
>> working on lists of spells that just about every wizard should know.

Kaos wrote:
> Y'know, between "every wizard should know" and "necromancy is an easy
> school to drop for specailists," I've decided the magic system is
> broken.

Part of the reason I don't play specialists is that I just can't bring
myself to drop any of the schools. I think necromancy is one of the
easiest to drop, but it's still painful to give up enfeeblement,
spectral hand, wilting, stuff like that. In particular, I've noticed
that "must-have" spells are spread across the schools at the topmost and
bottommost levels (which is what folks look at first when making the
choice).

As for must-have spells, there are a few abilities that few wizards
would want to give up, because they're fantasy staples (teleport) or
life-savers (dimension door) or both (shapechange). Then there's the
meta-magical stuff like dispelling and detecting magic that are simply
an important part of being a wizard.

> Ideally there wouldn't be a universal spellbook ....

I don't think you could put together an entire spellbook of must-have
spells, but there are a few spells that almost everybody wants. I don't
think you could get rid of them (unless you made them class features
instead of spells).
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 1:20:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:04:46 -0500, "Marshall"
<destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> > Another thing you seem to have missed - Ice Storm lasts an entire
> > round, which allows you to use it for crowd control.
>
> True. But thats also a penalty since it prevents your meleers from closing
> for an extra round and brings all sorts of weather penalties in for ranged
> attackers. So you might buy your buffers an extra round, is that worth a 4th
> level spell?

You have no idea how to use blocking effects, do you?

> > Have you ever thought of dropping the AoE spells _before_ the meleer's
> > close?
>
> Sure. Now you're back to all your encounters being at 300'+ range. IME,
> you've got MAYBE one round before your meleers are mixing it up.

Assuming they've good sense to not run, 150-200 feet is plenty.

> > Horrid Wilting being targetted, rather than AoE is a neutral effect -
> > you can't get your friends by accident, but you can't just dump it and
> > catch foes you can't detect, either. It doesn't work on constructs and
> > undead AT ALL, either.
>
> Targetted vs. cone is no brainer, but hey, i'll give you that.

Really? That's not my experience - they both have their place.

> > That said, my Loremaster uses Polar Ray as her 8th level direct damage
> > spell (when she bothers with one), because she's already got lots of
> > area effect, so something a little more precise is useful sometimes.
>
> Yeek, Thats an AWFUL spell. Compare it to Disintegrate, 1/2 the damage at +2
> levels. What the hell was WotC thinking? (Well, they were thinking the OFS
> was an 8th level spell)

Polar Ray has no save. Disintegrate has a Fort save (something
powerful monsters tend to be good at). I use Disintegrate more than
Polar Ray, but the latter has its place.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 1:27:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 29 Aug 2005 11:44:54 -0700, "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> > 4 dimension door (conj)
>
> DD? I'm rather fond of Polymorph, seems a heck of a lot more useful to
> me. Ice Storm is also extremly useful as it has no SR, I'd probably
> pick Ice Storm, then Polymorph as necessary spells.

No save, yes. No SR, no.

> > 5 wall of force (evoc)
>
> Eh. Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V (take a look at the
> Acheri), or Teleport are all way above wall of force on must have
> spells. Dominate Person is usually a first for anyone interested in
> charming stuff too.

I say Teleport. Never found a use for Wall of Force.

> > 6 disintegrate (trans)
>
> This is a good one against undead, but it's rather limited. Antimagic
> Field is a real must for a PC, for a loaner NPC it's not very good
> though. Planar Binding is again a far better spell than disintegrate.

Disintegrate is very cool, IME. Planar Binding is nice, though.
Antimagic Field I've never used.

> > 7 limited wish (univ)
>
> Very good, but I find people shy away from it because of the xp cost.
> It's of more use to a sorcerer as well. Prismatic Spray seems to be
> the spell of choice here.

Oh yes.

> > Abjuration:
> > 1 shield
>
> I'm not sure this is as much a must as protection from foo. Of course
> that's usually the cleric's job. So shield it is.

Shield is marvelous - it stacks with any other AC sources a wizard is
likely to have, and stops MM dead.

> > 4 stoneskin
>
> Not as useful as it once was. I find Dimentional Anchor seeing far
> more use.

Stoneskin is very useful IME. It stops most of those annoying nusisane
and spell disruption attacks.

> > 6 dispel magic, greater
>
> Again, Antimagic Field is far more useful.

Again, not IME.

> > 7 teleport, greater
>
> Not really worth it. Magnificent Mansion is a much better choice

Depends how much travelling you do, and how often you need a quick
getaway. The mansion means you could well have your enemies camped
right outside when you emerge.

> > 3 haste
>
> Not as useful as it once was, Fly is more useful.

??? Haste is not as powerful, but more useful - it's now a party buff.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 3:25:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:50:16 +0200, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Empower's OK for an evoker (or anyone else who often uses fistfuls o'
> d6), I think. Maximize is probably a bit too expensive. And I think
> they're both better for sorcerers than wizards, since if you have
> fireball, with Empower you also have a decent evocation for your 5th-
> level slots, and can use your 5th-level spells known for something else.
>
> But what you say is itself a rather damning commentary on polar ray,
> isn't it? People don't take Empower and Maximize because they're too
> expensive, and polar ray is much like an Empowered Maximized 2nd-level
> spell...

Except it doesn't cost you a couple of feats.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 3:34:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:48:01 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
> <bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > Part of the reason I don't play specialists is that I just can't bring
> > myself to drop any of the schools. I think necromancy is one of the
> > easiest to drop, but it's still painful to give up enfeeblement,
> > spectral hand, wilting, stuff like that. In particular, I've noticed
> > that "must-have" spells are spread across the schools at the topmost and
> > bottommost levels (which is what folks look at first when making the
> > choice).
>
> I don't play specialists for much the same reason. the other reason is
> that if I want to specialise it's usually by theme, and I can
> generally do a better job with a sorcerer build.

I find the same. If I want to limit my spell choice in exchange for
more slots the sorcerer does it better and has the same basic spell
list.

Heck a cleric gets as many or more slots than a specialist wizard,
and has a pretty nice spell selection with no need to worry about
spellbooks or spells known.

One of the major edges a wizard has is crafting items, without
the crafting ability I consider the class underpowered.

Specialists seriously weaken crafting (I think there is at least
one really nice item with a spell prereq from any school) AND
they restrict spell choice for one extra slot at each level. It
just never strikes me as a good trade even when I make NPCs with
specialization and limited screen time.

DougL
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 3:45:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:51:15 +0200, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr>
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > It's an 8th-level spell that does d6/level damage. At 15th, that's 15d6.
> > A scorching ray does 12d6, and it's 2nd level! An Empowered scorching
> > ray (4th-level) does (the equivalent of) 18d6. OK, that's with a feat,
> > and three rays means that energy resistance screws scorching ray three
> > times as much as it does polar ray, and fire resistance/immunity might
> > be more common than cold... OTOH, three rays also means it's less of an
> > all-or-nothing thing vs. high touch AC. And without resistances, a
> > Maximized Empowered scorching ray does more damage at 13th level than a
> > polar ray does at 25th!
>
> The 3xresistance is a real killer, IME. Energy Resistance 20+ is
> fairly common in high-level monsters, and that stops Scorching Ray
> dead, and messes an Empowered or Maximised one up pretty badly, too.
>
> > It seems to me that it's a poor 8th-level spell if a 2nd-level one and a
> > couple of metamagics can give it a run for its money...
>
> People talk a lot about Empower and Maximise, but I've never seen them
> used yet. Everyone who's played an arcanist so far has decided they
> cost too much.

I haven't seen arcanists use them much, but Incense of Meditation
is kick ass when your cleric knows that today is THE DAY. So I
have seen clerics take the feat just so they could make the incense.

I'm pretty sure I have seen a spontanious cure maximized, but I
think that was 3.0 so I suspect that 3.5 fixed that by adding
mass cure spells.

IIRC the sorcerer in one campaign had empower, and got some use
out of it once (but not nearly as much as he got out of silent
spell since I played opponents smart enough to try to constrain
the party's mobility then cast silence on nearby objects).

DougL
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 7:48:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:48:01 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Part of the reason I don't play specialists is that I just can't bring
> myself to drop any of the schools. I think necromancy is one of the
> easiest to drop, but it's still painful to give up enfeeblement,
> spectral hand, wilting, stuff like that. In particular, I've noticed
> that "must-have" spells are spread across the schools at the topmost and
> bottommost levels (which is what folks look at first when making the
> choice).

I don't play specialists for much the same reason. the other reason is
that if I want to specialise it's usually by theme, and I can
generally do a better job with a sorcerer build.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 8:19:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrndh6stu.tj7.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Marshall <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> wrote:
> > The larger area is rarely useful ....
>
> Because you're stupid.
>

Only idiots find believe that friendly fire is.

> > So when are you actually going to use this spell?
>
> It works fine for us. Maybe you're just stupid.
>

Or, as has been proven time and again, you're group is full of idiots who
LIKE wasting high level spell slots

> > I suppose if you are attacking a thieves guild or a monastery and
> > manage to draw them all into an open field it my have a single use.
>
> Or ogres. They're stupid too.
>

I see a theme here; "Idiot on Parade" and you've got a leading role...

> >> Have you ever thought of dropping the AoE spells _before_ the
> >> meleer's close?
>
> > Sure. Now you're back to all your encounters being at 300'+ range.
>
> You don't need 300 feet -- unless you're stupid.
>

See above on friendly fire. I really feel sorry for anyone who thinks you
have the slightest clue.

>
> > So it has the effect of a 4th level spell given a piss-poor AoE. Sculpt
> > spell is +1 level and has the same effect.
>
> No, it's not like a 4th-level spell, because by then 4th-level attack
> spells are almost entirely useless. You don't seem to understand this
> whole math thing. Probably because you're stupid.
>

You seem to have the same problem mickey does, 10d6=10d6. It has the damage
cap of a 4th level spell(or less) and the same added effect of a 4th level
spell. Specifically Sonic Orb. But, you're clueless, so take this rope and
hang yourself again please.

> >> I don't know that Greater Shout is superior to Horrid Wilting, but
> >> it's not inferior, and as they're of different schools, this is fine.
>
> > It needs its damage cap upped, badly.
>
> Not really. It does other stuff too.
>

So do spells a lot lower in level with a lot greater effect. But those are
actually effective, which you seem to not have the capability of being.

> You could use a thinking cap, though.

Dont need one, thanks.
You're conical cap is cute, tho. Had it for a while? You can barely make out
the D-U-N-C-E.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 1:25:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>> > Meteor Swarm is actually useful now, though not that powerful most of
>> > the time (resistance fire damage is far too coomon for that,
>> > especially as each blast's damage is resisted seperately).
>>
>> Energy Substitution thus becomes a more useful metamagic feat.
>
> However, there are plenty of creatures with resistance to any given
> element, and Energy Substitution only lets you convert to one other
> element. This is nice, especially if you're a sorcerer, but I'm not
> sure it's a feat slot 'nice'.

There is also the archmage's ability to do on the fly energy substitution
to any energy type.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 3:00:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> Because you're stupid.

Marshall wrote:
> Only idiots find believe that friendly fire is.

Too funny -- do you think you could sound any more stupid?

>>> Sure. Now you're back to all your encounters being at 300'+ range.

>> You don't need 300 feet -- unless you're stupid.

> See above on friendly fire. I really feel sorry for anyone who thinks
> you have the slightest clue.

See upthread, where I state that we manage to use area spells /and/
avoid friendly fire. That's because we, unlike you and your imaginary
friends, are not stupid.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 1:35:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Marshall wrote:

> Only idiots find believe that friendly fire is.
>

Can I use this for my signature file. It's quintessential Marshall.
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 2:01:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:19:02 -0500, "Marshall"
<destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> You seem to have the same problem mickey does, 10d6=10d6. It has the damage
> cap of a 4th level spell(or less) and the same added effect of a 4th level
> spell. Specifically Sonic Orb. But, you're clueless, so take this rope and
> hang yourself again please.

Now explain to the rest of the class how you intend to stun a whole
bunch of foes with Sonic Orb.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 2:01:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:euvah1pgha2ek76po9h9cnep668huh3qg8@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:19:02 -0500, "Marshall"
> <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > You seem to have the same problem mickey does, 10d6=10d6. It has the
damage
> > cap of a 4th level spell(or less) and the same added effect of a 4th
level
> > spell. Specifically Sonic Orb. But, you're clueless, so take this rope
and
> > hang yourself again please.
>
> Now explain to the rest of the class how you intend to stun a whole
> bunch of foes with Sonic Orb.
>

Sculpt Spell is +1 spell level. While it doesnt work directly on Sonic Orb,
the effect would be the same on a new researched spell. Single target to AoE
is +1 spell level. Making Greater Shout around a 5th level spell effect(in
an eighth level slot).

That conludes your lesson on Evocation 301 for the day...
September 1, 2005 2:47:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:19:02 -0500, "Marshall"
<destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> dared speak in front of ME:

>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>news:slrndh6stu.tj7.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>> Marshall <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> wrote:
>> > The larger area is rarely useful ....
>>
>> Because you're stupid.
>
>Only idiots find believe that friendly fire is.

Purple geese traffic freely.
(Or to put it another way: wtf are *you* trying to say?)

>> > So when are you actually going to use this spell?
>>
>> It works fine for us. Maybe you're just stupid.
>
>Or, as has been proven time and again, you're group is full of idiots who
>LIKE wasting high level spell slots

For definitions of "time and again" that are synonomous with "Only in
Marshall's fevered imagination."

--
The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out
the conservative adopts them.
Samuel Clemens, "Notebook," 1935
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 3:02:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:19:02 -0500, "Marshall"
> <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>
>>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>>news:slrndh6stu.tj7.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>>
>>>Marshall <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The larger area is rarely useful ....
>>>
>>>Because you're stupid.
>>
>>Only idiots find believe that friendly fire is.
>
>
> Purple geese traffic freely.
> (Or to put it another way: wtf are *you* trying to say?)

Maybe he's channeling a slaad:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=6...
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 3:20:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In news:D eu7ev$1csk$1@news.iquest.net,
Marshall <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> typed:
> I've always found it easier to find a 5' gap to shoot a LB thru than
> a 20'd circle that didnt have the parties flankers in it. Also found
> that most of FBs range is beyond encounter distance so its not as
> huge a bennie as it looks.

"Encounter distance", what's that? Do you have a set limit on the distance
encounters can occur at or what?

I agree that FBs full range ain't always usable but your argument seems to
say it's never usable.

--
T. Koivula
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 5:57:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Behold! for "Marshall" <destroyr@BRAKESiquest.net> spake unto the
multitude thus:

>
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
>news:cqn5h1tpeuipvggm9pbhg2j9b3ge1ro5sn@4ax.com...
>> Have you ever thought of dropping the AoE spells _before_ the meleer's
>> close?
>>
>
>Sure. Now you're back to all your encounters being at 300'+ range. IME,
>you've got MAYBE one round before your meleers are mixing it up.

Eh? Do all your adventures happen underground or something? Lightning
Bolt is great for clearing corridors but pretty shaky elsewhere.
Unless your targets happen to line up in a row directly facing you,
it's hard to get many of them. OTOH, Fireball will clear a whole room
very nicely.

LB has some minor advantages - electricity resistance is less common
than fire resistance, it can smash down doors (or walls at high level)
and is sometimes less prone to collateral damage, but FB is far more
useful in the great outdoors. It also does extra damage to some things
(eg white dragons, frost giants), and LB does extra to very little.

In a dungeon, I might take LB. Outside, no.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 5:57:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Behold! for "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> spake unto the
multitude thus:

>2 mirror image (illus)

Far too prone to mooks, arrows, Magic Missile, Cleave or

Actually, in "Any successful attack against an image destroys it." I
assume "attack" must be a deliberate physical attack action (ie roll
d20 to hit) capable of doing damage; otherwise AoE spells would wipe
it out, as would a handful of sand. But what about shadows, Ray of
Frost or Ray of Enfeeblement?

And are you in control of the images? I infer so, but it doesn't say
so, doesn't say whether they move or teleport, whether they can appear
on the other side or a door, etc etc.

This spell is rather vague.

At low levels, Web, Invisibility or Glitterdust. At higher levels,
Spectral Hand* or Glitterdust.

*Spectral Hand is a bit vague too. It implies that it moves anywhere
within max range within one round, so unless it gets whopped by an
incorporeal movement AoO or something near you, it can't get hit.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 6:24:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> 2 mirror image (illus)

Jim Davies wrote:
> Far too prone to mooks, arrows, Magic Missile, Cleave or
>
> Actually, in "Any successful attack against an image destroys it." I
> assume "attack" must be a deliberate physical attack action (ie roll
> d20 to hit) capable of doing damage; otherwise AoE spells would wipe
> it out, as would a handful of sand. But what about shadows, Ray of
> Frost or Ray of Enfeeblement?

IIRC, anything that targets an image dispels it, but I don't have the
rules handy to double-check.

> And are you in control of the images? I infer so, but it doesn't say
> so, doesn't say whether they move or teleport, whether they can appear
> on the other side or a door, etc etc.

Huh? I'm sure the rules answer at least a couple of those questions. For
example, they can't appear on the other side of a door unless you have
line-of-effect to that space. And it clearly states that you can
rearrage the images; dunno whether that's what you meant by "control."
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
!