ATi 9800 Pro

phill21 · Mar 6, 2003

Simple one really.. what does everyone think?
In a amandtech review the differences between the ati card and the geforce where a lot different to that reviewed in toms i thought.
i figure toms might actually use a 'faster' setup, ie like the one amandtech used, (p4 @ 3ghz etc etc) and it really did show its speed and muscle and it basically did show up the NVidia card..
Still not to worry.. this is why there are so many people reviewing PC Hardware, lots of different opinions.. (hence mine!)
I feel rather inclined to buy a 9800 Pro, but I feel i would waste my 9700 Pro a little bit to much.. So when i have upgraded my system, i will buy the newer Ati card, the one or two after the 9800 Pro... im sure then, directx 10 will be out or what have you and well.. speeds will be even faster again i imagine..
i just cant wait.. thanks for any views/opinions etc ladies and gents!
oh, heres the amandtech link for the same review..

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1794" target="_new"> amandtech review link </A>

If it blows up? Opps.... I must have been doing something wrong

eden · Mar 6, 2003

Normal performance-wise, I'm rather disappointed. I thought they would really shoot for 2 TMUs. But after seeing Anandtech's clock per clock comparison of AA and Aniso, we can clearly see a powerful boost.
We can see that now that the clock rate is around 300-400, small 40MHZ jumps are merely increasing performance by not more than 10%. In the near future, GPU clock bumps must go at over 60MHZ to have more competition, as well as for memory clock speeds.

Additionally, we can clearly see that the drivers are very young. Did you notice how it'd sometimes perform below the R9700 PRO, while being much higher clocked?
Seems to me we can still take some performance out of it. Perhaps it's not optimized yet.

But damn it I wish they had tried the R9600 PRO. Now I am confused and wondering if I should wait for it or go for the R9500PRO, and perhaps OC it or mod it...

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phill21 · Mar 6, 2003

well performance wise, i could consider upgrading from my 9700 Pro to a 9800 Pro, but there would be little difference, possibly just a better picture or something but im not 100% on that one..
what do you mean about having 2 TMU's? Sorry for being really stupid, but what are they?!!?!?
as for buying a graphics card, have mine!!!
i dont think that the drivers are 100% 'completed' if you like, so i would like to think that they have a few more fps to get out of them..
i personnally would have liked to see a bigger performance boost, but i will just sit back and relax with the performance increase i will get from upgrading my motherboard (KR7A) cpu (XP1800) and memory (2 x 256mbs PC2100) and see where that puts me.. im hoping to see a fair big increase.. but you never know..

If it blows up? Opps.... I must have been doing something wrong

eden · Mar 7, 2003

Hehehe, if you could sell me your R9700PRO at an R9500PRO's price with retail housing, you got yourself a deal buddy

!

What I meant by 2 TMUs, is the multitexturing abilities it has. 2TMUs means it can apply 2 pixels per pipe instead of the current 1 on most cards except the GF4Ti. As you know currently it is 8x1 for the R9700PRO.
Having multitexturing capabilities would've been awesome, it'd easily have a steady jump in performance.

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Makaveli · Mar 7, 2003

I own a Radeon 9700 Pro. And was surprised at some of the increases in performance mostly with AA/Ani though. Is it worth the upgrade for current 9700pro users? I don't think so. If your one of those people that need the best then go ahead. I will not be buying a radeon 9800 pro. The 256mb version with DD2 and higher clocks might temp me. Which we will see around april.

But the techy in me is saying I should wait until around dec/jan and get the R400! Since I've only had my card for about 2 months.

none the less its a great card, and commend ATi for keeping the Performance lead.

I still think there is alot of life left in the Radeon 9700 pro with more performance to come from driver improvements!

Now I wait the NV35 to see what it brings to the table. IMO the ultra FX was a flop! The normal FX is a nice improvement for current Ti4600 users.

lhgpoobaa · Mar 7, 2003

I LIKE it. I was planning an upgrade from my Geforce2pro to a 9700 nonpro... but i think ill wait.

What i really liked was the efficiency improvments with AA and ansio that anandtech showed... as the cards are designed to run fast with ansi and aa enabled its a very wellcome boost.

"If spam wasn't totally bogus, Hotmail users would be well-endowed, slim people with hair who make big money working at home and having great sex provoked by free porn and herbal Viagra.

eden · Mar 7, 2003

It would've been nice to see some side by side Normal vs AAed or Anisoed results. We know it is very efficient, but, why not also show us how it performed without the AA, then with it, so we'd see how big the impact is.
Now another thing I didn't get, was that while on the same clock with the R300, it exhibited around 30% better AA+Aniso performance, but when at its clock, and with real FPS numbers, it seemed to either do less, or do exactly 30% more as if the higher clock didn't do anything.
In a way it's as if the percentage efficiency results by Anand were superficial or from a different system than the one they used!

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eden · Mar 7, 2003

The thing that downed me today while seeing those benchmarks on THG was, the rather weak scores overall of all these cards. I just couldn't help but notice that all cards were not impressing me with their frame rates. It's as if games are already destroying them, and the days of 60FPS constant is not an option. Maybe it's just me, or just that the graphs were rather overall showing less "stellar numbers" over 150.
I'm hoping that my 1.4GHZ with a Ti200, would appreciate a triple FPS boost going to a 9500PRO.

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eden · Mar 7, 2003

Surprisingly, I couldn't help but feel THG's recent benchmark with the FX5800 Ultra, was rather more impressive, against the R9800PRO. AA and Aniso aside, it felt like even the 5800 was a powerhouse, comparing itself to the R300 quite well.
But then again, I think of cooler, AA and aniso, drivers and it's easy to say "No, not yet!".

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Twitch · Mar 7, 2003

Eden: I agree. I think THG figured out a couple workarounds--improved drivers, forcing the FX into 24-bit Z-buffering... Notice how the FX destroyed the 9800 PRO in Serious Sam standard benchmarks this time, whereas it was way behind the 9700 PRO the last time THG did benchmarks?

The FX acquitted itself better than I expected, but still is not in the 9800 PRO's class overall, IMHO. I am also interested in seeing how the 256 meg DDR 2 version (9900 PRO?) performs. I'm thinking maybe a 15-20% improvement in high quality / high resolution. Probably little or no improvement in benchmarks where memory is not the bottleneck (unless, of course, the 9900 PRO is higher clocked...)

Now I am left with a dilemma. I have been buying hardware piece by piece since the end of last month. My plan is to buy either a 400 FSB Barton or 800 FSB Pentium 4 in May-June, when they come out. Anantech intimated that nVidia's NV35 core is looking impressive, and that nVidia might rebound with its next product release. It also sounded like we would be seeing NV35 based graphics cards in two months (or so) which makes me think the new nVidia card will be released around the same time or a little after the 9900 PRO. Will it be better? Man, I would hate to have to postpone my upgrade just because I am filled with indecision over which graphics card to buy.

<-----Insert witty sig line here.

dhlucke · Mar 7, 2003

In Serious Sam SE the R9800 Pro is up to 25% faster than the FX 5800 Ultra with all the settings turned up.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1794&p=8" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1794&p=8</A>


<A HREF="http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?dhlucke" target="_new">The French are being described as cheese-eating surrender monkeys.</A>

dhlucke · Mar 7, 2003

At highest settings the 9800 Pro vs Fx 5800 Ultra

UT 2K3 - up to 68% faster
SS SE - up to 25% faster
Q3A - up to 26% faster
JKII - up to 32% faster
Comanche - up to 10% faster
Codecreatures - up to 41% slower


<A HREF="http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?dhlucke" target="_new">The French are being described as cheese-eating surrender monkeys.</A>

Crashman · Mar 7, 2003

Well, you know how Crashman is always disappointed by comprimise. The 9800 Pro should have been on the .13 Micron process clocked at 400MHz, and a very cool runner. But ATI thought they just HAD to stick to .15 Micron so they could rush things...by what, a couple weeks? Looks like the R400 will be an updated version of the R350 we were originally promised. Oh well, at least it squares off nicely with the 5800FX and has a lot more efficiency.

Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!

10GHZ · Mar 7, 2003

oh baby .. i cant wait

TheGreatGrapeApe · Mar 7, 2003

I wouldn't call it compromis, I'd call it the RIGHT way to do things. You want the Fastest card as quickly as possible. Send in the BEST of your current technonolgy.
You wanna perfect the 0.13 process, which is cheaper to produce per chip, well, Underclock it and put it in your mid-range card, which hopefully people will buy en-mass and you can learn alot from your mid-level card instead of your Marquee card.
I think we ALL would love to see a 0.13 version of the 9800 running 256+mb of DDRII, but I prefer getting a faster card sooner, than waiting forever for something that under-performs 'older' technology; now where have I heard of that scenario before?
I think for my 'play' rig I'll get the 9600, it consumes less power (supposedly) and generates less heat (ditto), and man that killer retail box cover with a goalie mask just draws a Canuck to it like a Moth to a Bug-zapper, just hope my end-results are better.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

melb_angel19 · Mar 7, 2003

an interesting point... i did notice the core speed has gone up alot more than the DDR speed. Maybe this is also a factor?

Age is of no importance
unless you are a cheese.
Billie Burke

Twitch · Mar 7, 2003

Dude, do you work for ATI, or what? C'mon, be honest.

<-----Insert witty sig line here.

dhlucke · Mar 7, 2003

I don't think reading the reviews and reporting the benchmarks here for you to see, even remotely represents a bias.

The numbers speak for themselves.


<A HREF="http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?dhlucke" target="_new">The French are being described as cheese-eating surrender monkeys.</A>

Twitch · Mar 7, 2003

Are you trying to tell me you're not biased?

<-----Insert witty sig line here.

Lamoni · Mar 7, 2003

well performance wise, i could consider upgrading from my 9700 Pro to a 9800 Pro, but there would be little difference, possibly just a better picture or something but im not 100% on that one..

I just find it very humorous that as soon as the next video card comes out, the first people that consider upgrading to it are the people that just bought the fastest card 2 months ago.

The only justification that I could see for spending the money for the 9700 pro is that it would last for a while. Now I think that if you need the fastest card, it will probably last you less time than a cheaper card would, because there will always be a faster card released every few months. To keep the fastest card, you will need to upgrade within another 6 months.

Don't upgrade because something else is faster. Only upgrade if what you have seems slow. I guess I shouldn't say that. The more people that buy the fastest cards and always upgrade are helping the market. I appreciate the help you give to ATI and nVidia, it just seems like a lot of money.

'It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.'

TheGreatGrapeApe · Mar 7, 2003

Twitch we are all BIASED, the question is whether there is a reason for the bias. If it's because of edjumacated reasons or just plain love/hate. Experience, be it 3rd hand reviews, or not is a good reason for bias, however I haven't seen anything from him that wasn't backed up with something. Perhaps you question his sources, perhaps he has a bias in what he collects and posts here, however I don't think I have seen ANYONE here (who has posted more than once) who hasn't shown some kind of bias, be it THEIR definition of Quality / Best / 'is' or their take on a particular subject. I don't mind bias as much as incorrect info (which even I have been guilty of [not on purpose, TRUST me ;~P ] )
I don't think any of the info provided was mis-leading or false, so whatever bias you feel there is is obviously backed up by some 'facts'.
Anywhooo, now returning you to your irregularly scheduled de-programing.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! RED GREEN :tongue: GA to SK

Twitch · Mar 7, 2003

I have a friend who has bought ten (soon to be eleven) graphics cards in the last four years to upgrade his gaming rig. He has upgraded his processor and motherboard almost as frequently. I figure he's spent about $15,000 in graphics cards, motherboards, and processors, if you include tax. He preorders whenever possible and was bitching the other day that he couldn't find preorders for 9800 PRO anywhere. He bought the 9700 PRO three months ago. And you know what? He's got a crummy 15" monitor that's at least eight or nine years old. I mean, spending that kinda money to get the best graphics, wouldn't you think about at least upgrading the part of the computer that actually displays graphics?

It's just ridiculous. I think the reason he NEVER thinks his system is fast enough is because he upgrades so frequently, he never really takes a full step forward. And he isn't rich either--just obsessed. I understand the obsession a little bit, but there are extremes. I could understand it if you just have way more money than you know what to do with, but that's not the case with most people I've known who have upgrade-itis.

nVidia and ATI love it, though.

<-----Insert witty sig line here.

Twitch · Mar 7, 2003

Actually I'll edit this post to apologize to dhlucke for the sarcasm. I am hyper-sensitive to fanboys. I should have noted that his benchmarks were, indeed accurate. Besides, he wasn't responding to me, but to Eden. I will submit to my forty lashes now.

<-----Insert witty sig line here.

Edited by Twitch on 03/07/03 11:24 AM.

phill21 · Mar 7, 2003

well i wouldnt like to get rid of the 9700 for anything less than £200, but then you could probably buy one new for that.. not to worry..
well, i think that having the multitexturing abilities would do wonders for performance, in tests like the multitexting test in 3dmark 2001se..
i cant but wait for later versions of the newer faster cards.. i think it will be great..

If it blows up? Opps.... I must have been doing something wrong

phill21 · Mar 7, 2003

well im not going to upgrade to one, but it would be nice to be given one!!
the 9800 pro has really made a difference from where the 9700 pro went, the 9800 pro has gone further and it has done it in style

like i said in my first post, i will be getting a newer card two or three generations on.. i think its the only far way to actually see and notice a difference..
well the new geforce card is ok, but i prefer ati now, so its ATi from here on in...

If it blows up? Opps.... I must have been doing something wrong

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