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Where are the Mata Hari decks?

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Anonymous
March 8, 2005 8:26:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata
Hari??

I've been considering two ideas for Her Royal Brokenness:

Mata and Setite weenies vote deck; bring out Ventrue Headquarters
and/or Demonstration and/or Feraille. Mata and her obf/ser weenie
buddies go Free States Ranting. Steal vampires with Form of Corruption
/ Temptation. Or hell just KRC people to death if you want to be
boring. Mata has access to massive amounts of stealth, can vote then
Freak and do something else (I'm not entirely sure what, Edged Illusion
maybe), and can Sleep Unseen at the end of her last action so people
(without AUS) can't come around knocking on her door with a Red List
warrant.

Mata ally madness deck; Mata becomes charismatic and a perfectionist
and invites along a muddled vampire hunter, escaped mental patient,
ambrosius, some ghouls from plaza moreria, and anyone else she can
think of. They have a great time harassing vampires, since they're all
Unmasked. The FBI special affairs division are in on the act, and the
allies kept getting Left for Dead (yes this combo works, I got a ruling
on it). Throw in some Gehenna events that screw with vampires, add some
Leather Jackets, stir and season to taste.

Don't forget the action cards Mata can play too; she can dig important
cards out of your deck with Sibyl's Tongue, she can recycle useful
cards with Sudario Refraction, and if she does go to the bin, she can
even dig herself out with Recure of the Homeland!
There are also some clan-required combat cards that could provide
useful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only two of these rare
little guys in the whole game: Reality Mirror (!Malk) and Leathery Hide
(!Gangrel). Both have obvious uses; the latter is probably more useful
and acts as basically Soak at superior (but can be played in
multiples).

Has anyone come up with any cool deck ideas for this insane vampire?
Anarchs? Gargoyle spawning?
Mad props if it involves Assimites and/or Web of Knives and/or her
inbuilt Quietus.
MAD MAD props if it involves putting out Storm Sewers, Mass Reality,
Island of Yiaros, giving her a Sword of Troile and watching her chop
people up :D 

More about : mata hari decks

March 8, 2005 8:53:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata
> Hari??

I'm not up for trying ways to break things.... but I have designed this
deck with the view to testing it out shortly.

Deck Name: Mata and Friends
Created By: J
Description: Mata Hari gets loads of allies.

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 9, Max: 28, Avg: 4.58)
---------------------------------------------
5 Mata Hari aus for qui CHI OBF 7, Ravnos:4
1 Roger Farnsworth aus OBF 4, Malkavian antitribu:3
1 Jeffrey Mullins cel OBF 4, Gangrel antitribu:4
1 Milo aus obf 3, Malkavian:3
1 Ali Kar obf qui 3, Assamite:3
1 Krid obf 2, Nosferatu:3
1 Hanna Redmonds obf tha 2, Caitiff:3
1 Denette Stensen obf 2, Gangrel antitribu:4

Library: (75 cards)
-------------------
Master (11 cards)
4 Blood Doll
1 Charisma
1 Fortitude
4 Memories of Mortality
1 Secure Haven

Action (3 cards)
2 Entrenching
1 Sensory Deprivation

Action Modifier (24 cards)
5 Cloak the Gathering
3 Faceless Night
8 Freak Drive
5 Lost in Crowds
3 Spying Mission

Combat (15 cards)
3 Boxed In
4 Concealed Weapon
4 Dodge
4 Fake Out

Ally (9 cards)
1 Amam the Devourer (Bane Mummy)
2 Muddled Vampire Hunter
2 Renegade Garou
2 Rock Cat
1 Vagabond Mystic
2 War Ghoul

Retainers (2 cards)
1 J.S Simmons Esq
1 Tasha Morgan

Equipment (8 cards)
2 Leather Jacket
1 Meat Cleaver
1 Meat Hook
4 Wooden Stake

Events (2 cards)
1 Blood Weakens
1 FBI Special Affairs Division

--> J
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:51:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Dasein wrote:
| OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata
| Hari??
|
| I've been considering two ideas for Her Royal Brokenness:

It's always wise to be able to demonstrate that a vampire is broken
prior to claiming that a vampire is broken.

After playtesting Bloodlines, we finally came to the conclusion that it
was darn near impossible to "break" a vampire, especially a reasonably
big one. The details are a bit hazy, but Agaitas is one of the only
vamps I can remember whose initial design had to be trimmed SHARPLY in
several areas.

Why? Because vampires are fragile. Rush them, they die. Sense Dep
them, they stay edge-on forever. Banish them while they're low. PTO,
Pentex Subversion, Riddle Phantastique... take your pick. It's way too
easy to neutralize a single vampire; this is why it's so hard to play
One Big Monster decks.

Also, vampires are unique. To give the example most commonly decried as
broken, you only get one Arika. She either takes a ton of actions per
turn, or you bring out supporting cast for her -- but you still only get
one Arika. She's very good, largely _because_ she can take a ton of
stealthy actions per turn and thus can simulate being three 4-caps quite
effectively... but she's still only one minion. Everything above except
Banishment and PTO works on her just fine.

I'm sure it's possible to break a vamp if you glue on enough free
specials, or if you make a 4-cap with 3 superiors. But honestly, you
really have to go off the deep end before a vampire is going to be broken.

Looking at Mata, she's got 7 points of disciplines, 2 votes, a big
honkin' special, and a big honkin' disability. Not bad for a 7-cap;
looks balanced from here. The special, like Ian Forestal's, is
difficult to quantize, but it's worth noting that much like Ian can't
cram all 20+ disciplines in a single deck effectively, Mata Hari can't
effectively use all 18+ clans' toys at once, either.

| Mata and Setite weenies vote deck; bring out Ventrue Headquarters
| and/or Demonstration and/or Feraille. Mata and her obf/ser weenie
| buddies go Free States Ranting. Steal vampires with Form of Corruption

Weenie vamps don't do Free States Rant all that well. You want at least
some 5-caps for the job. Also, your vote starts at only 2 in favor and
Mata doesn't have Presence. So you need one extra weenie to go bleeding
first to obtain the Edge, or you need to start including Freak Drive --
something the Setites aren't noted for.

Attempting to rely on the various vote-gainer locations looks good at
first, but you have to get these at the top of your deck or you're going
to be boned. You might do better to run a !Malk or two as backup and
include some Sibyl's Tongue to fetch your votey-things.

Form of Corruption will not work all that well to steal vampires, since
you have to figure out a way to get a vampire empty during YOUR master
phase. As soon as you put a Form in play, your prey will typically stop
bleeding and start killing backwards as best he can. Also note that you
need someone with OBF ser for this, because Mata can't use that card.

| / Temptation. Or hell just KRC people to death if you want to be
| boring. Mata has access to massive amounts of stealth, can vote then

KRC people with what votes, again? Your 2 + the vote card aren't going
to pass it against a hostile table, and if you drop lots of KRC that's
exactly what you'll see. Ventrue HQ only works once.

| Freak and do something else (I'm not entirely sure what, Edged Illusion
| maybe), and can Sleep Unseen at the end of her last action so people
| (without AUS) can't come around knocking on her door with a Red List
| warrant.

Sleep Unseen is a very nice card, but adding it into the mix along with
everything else above is going to hurt. Forget it for a single turn and
she'll vanish -- her only real defenses are inferior Fortitude *or*
Illusions of the Kindred. Leathery Hide is ... amusing, but a card that
nobody else in your deck can play is not a good plan for victory.

| Mata ally madness deck; Mata becomes charismatic and a perfectionist
| and invites along a muddled vampire hunter, escaped mental patient,
| ambrosius, some ghouls from plaza moreria, and anyone else she can
| think of. They have a great time harassing vampires, since they're all
| Unmasked. The FBI special affairs division are in on the act, and the
| allies kept getting Left for Dead (yes this combo works, I got a ruling
| on it). Throw in some Gehenna events that screw with vampires, add some
| Leather Jackets, stir and season to taste.

....You forgot "Get ousted by stealth/bleed." Come on, if it can't at
least make a SHOW of things against your typical OBF/DOM predator, how
do you expect to demonstrate that she's broken?

At least the Free States Rant deck has the option of putting Ozmo and
Mariel in a hunt loop in its own defense.

| Don't forget the action cards Mata can play too; she can dig important
| cards out of your deck with Sibyl's Tongue, she can recycle useful
| cards with Sudario Refraction, and if she does go to the bin, she can
| even dig herself out with Recure of the Homeland!

Bet those work great for the other guys in your crypt, none of whom can
play more than one of those cards at any given time.

She'll be seen in some very interesting decks, don't get me wrong. But
she's not even close to broken, for the same reasons Ian Forestal
isn't... and on another scale, for the same reasons NO vampires are
currently broken. Not even Arika.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
March 9, 2005 2:06:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

It's too bad Mata Hari is a group 4. Otherwise you could play her and
Ian in your crypt and play with 90 randomly selected cards from your
collection. Or play with Agaitas, Mata Hari, and Ian and just play
with your prey's library. Your whole deck could be Life in the City
and Ascendance.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 5:24:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Dasein <dasein2600@hotmail.com> wrote:
: I've been considering two ideas for Her Royal Brokenness:

Hardly broken. Most ideas so far are pretty tricky, unstable, but
undoubtedly fun. Red List attribute should keep her pretty well in
check. Also, her disciplines are quite balanced. Consider her with
tha/THA or pre/PRE.

: Mata and Setite weenies vote deck; bring out Ventrue Headquarters
: and/or Demonstration and/or Feraille. Mata and her obf/ser weenie
: buddies go Free States Ranting.

She certainly is one of the best candidates for a Free State + Edged
Illusion deck. Haven't quite yet finished working on a deck like this..
I'm still pondering how to make an Ankara Citadel+Path of Paradox combo
fit in.

: MAD MAD props if it involves putting out Storm Sewers, Mass Reality,
: Island of Yiaros, giving her a Sword of Troile and watching her chop
: people up :D 

Sword of Troile, Art of Pain, Depravity.. Groundfighting would really be
the thing, but anarchifying Mata Hari takes Anarch Secessions. Disengage
should fit in at least. Taste of Vitaes. Sup. Auspex and Telepathic
Trackings, or Drum of Xipe Totec and Psyche to make sure nobody gets
away too easily.

In the works, in the works..

//T
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 8:54:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> After playtesting Bloodlines, we finally came to the conclusion that
> it was darn near impossible to "break" a vampire, especially a
> reasonably big one. The details are a bit hazy, but Agaitas is one
> of the only vamps I can remember whose initial design had to be
> trimmed SHARPLY in several areas.

The original version of Sascha Vykos^ -- where you could draw a card each
time another Methuselah played *any card* -- was just wrong, if not
totally broken.


Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 11:06:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Yeah, I think I'll give Mata a Chanjelin Ward with Aching Beauty then
get an Erebus Mask and perform Art Scams at 2 stealth. And if you want
to block. Fine, spend intercept and/or burn pool & blood and then I'll
Red Herring.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:41:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, charlotte vtes wrote:

> Yeah, I think I'll give Mata a Chanjelin Ward with Aching Beauty then
> get an Erebus Mask and perform Art Scams at 2 stealth. And if you want
> to block. Fine, spend intercept and/or burn pool & blood and then I'll
> Red Herring.

I don't think the Erebus Mask actually does anything for Mata Hari unless
she changes her clan. She can equip with it due to her special, but she
remains a Ravnos and therefore doesn't get the stealth from it. See also
Sword of Judgment.

The other stuff should work.

Matt Morgan
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 2:36:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"J" <grail_j@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110333237.294550.233730@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata
>> Hari??
>
> I'm not up for trying ways to break things....

What are you?!? A pinko Communist??!!!

C'MON! Break stuff!!! Invent a nefarious scheme for controlling the board and
bringing your opponents under your vice-grip-like control - all by abusing a card
or combo in a way no one would ever have thought of.

Having LSJ ban YOUR SICK ABUSUSIVE TACTIC before the entire metagame collapses
is the ultimate target and goal: go for it, damn you!!! It's the "CCG way".

*srk*...not up for trying ways to break things..../*SARCASM*/ Well, maybe we
should all just play NICE with each other and love the whole world and stuff.
Yea, that's the ticket.

:-)
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:06:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I only play VTES once every 3 months, so I get rusty on the rules and
the purpose of winning, etc. Maybe since I've been playing more World
of Warcraft lately I've been mislead to believe each action should be a
long quest with the side benefit of gaining wealth and rare items ;-)
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:34:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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charlotte vtes wrote:
| Yeah, I think I'll give Mata a Chanjelin Ward with Aching Beauty then
| get an Erebus Mask and perform Art Scams at 2 stealth. And if you want
| to block. Fine, spend intercept and/or burn pool & blood and then I'll
| Red Herring.

I like the idea of you using a 9-pool vampire to gain only 2 pool per
turn, without actually helping oust your prey. Go for it.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:36:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Kevin M. wrote:
| Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
|>After playtesting Bloodlines, we finally came to the conclusion that
|>it was darn near impossible to "break" a vampire, especially a
|>reasonably big one. The details are a bit hazy, but Agaitas is one
|>of the only vamps I can remember whose initial design had to be
|>trimmed SHARPLY in several areas.
|
| The original version of Sascha Vykos^ -- where you could draw a card each
| time another Methuselah played *any card* -- was just wrong, if not
| totally broken.

Oops, yep. We noted that one before trying to play her though, so I
don't have the horrific memories I do of Agaitas + Infernal Pursuit +
Distraction.... so she doesn't really rise to the top.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:37:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> The original version of Sascha Vykos^ -- where you could draw a card
each
> time another Methuselah played *any card* -- was just wrong, if not
> totally broken.

First, it was more broken than that: It didn't say "other".

Second, it was written in the playtest instructions that it was
supposed to be Master cards only.

Third, my group missed that for round 1, also. :) 

-- Brian
Talking about Gehenna playtest...
Wow, eighteen months already...
I thought it was only 15 so far...
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 8:10:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Chris Berger wrote:
> It's too bad Mata Hari is a group 4. Otherwise you could play her
and
> Ian in your crypt and play with 90 randomly selected cards from your
> collection. Or play with Agaitas, Mata Hari, and Ian and just play
> with your prey's library. Your whole deck could be Life in the City
> and Ascendance.

And a few copies of the Ericyes Fragments :D 
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 8:29:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Er maybe I should have made it a little clearer that I wasn't being
100% serious in that post....
I totally agree that no vampires are really broken. For many of the
reasons you mentioned... plus one-vampire "trick" decks have a big
problem with "this vampire can't block" cards like Seduction (with DOM)
or Elder Impersonation (with OBF); they can ruin your whole day.

In my post I was more talking about whacky decks or unusual combos
people might have figured out, that no other crypt in the game could
pull off (mainly involving interactions of various master cards with
clan requirements). They may turn out to be solid decks eventually, who
knows.

btw, I don't think Red List is a "big honkin disability". Far from it.
Rush decks will have rush in their hand anyway. Non-rush decks are
unlikely to have threatening combat to do anything with the rush
(considering she has for and OBF for combat defence, and they have to
spend a master phase action AND a blood to rush, they may end up losing
more blood than you in the process). Trophy cards are unlikely to be
used unless by specific decks designed around marking people as Red
List; and assuming they can do that (i.e. the deck is half-decent),
there's not much disadvantage in being Red List in the first place.

what do people think?
This hasn't been discussed yet and could deserve a thread of its own.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:44:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

just thought i'd share an amusing tale...

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:51:52 -0500, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com>
scrawled:

>
>Sleep Unseen is a very nice card,

there was this one game, with a baali deck. it played a sleep unseen,
mostly just to cycle (it's prey had an aus vamp).

that aus vamp put the baali in torpor during it's turn.

the cross-table ally wanted to rescue, was unable to rescue the baali,
because of the sleep unseen. :) 

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:44:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hi All.

One question about Mata Hari:

Can she play cards that the first sentence is put this card in the
acting XXX? It seems to be that Mata Hari plays the card as the XXX
clan, so i guess she can play for example Ritual Challenge or Concert
Tour...Can she play Blessing of the Name?
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:44:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Ashenbach" <Ashenbach@iespana.es> wrote in message news:8b63da3e.0503090405.242b68ce@posting.google.com...
> Hi All.
>
> One question about Mata Hari:
>
> Can she play cards that the first sentence is put this card in the
> acting XXX?

Yes.

> It seems to be that Mata Hari plays the card as the XXX
> clan, so i guess she can play for example Ritual Challenge or Concert
> Tour...Can she play Blessing of the Name?

Yes.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (Remove spam trap to reply).
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:44:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 9 Mar 2005 04:05:46 -0800, Ashenbach <Ashenbach@iespana.es> wrote:

> Hi All.
>
> One question about Mata Hari:
>
> Can she play cards that the first sentence is put this card in the
> acting XXX? It seems to be that Mata Hari plays the card as the XXX
> clan, so i guess she can play for example Ritual Challenge or Concert
> Tour...Can she play Blessing of the Name?

Yes. The only problem she will have is with cards whose ongoing effects
name a clan. "The Brujah Antitribu with this card..."-kind of stuff.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 3:22:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"charlotte vtes" <vtesrockssocks@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:1110384370.175262.324210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Yeah, I think I'll give Mata a Chanjelin Ward with Aching Beauty then
> get an Erebus Mask and perform Art Scams at 2 stealth. And if you want
> to block. Fine, spend intercept and/or burn pool & blood and then I'll
> Red Herring.
>

Aching beauty only works if the vampire is toreador while acting. So you
should start to pack all those portraits and resplendent protectors
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 8:32:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<firstconformist@aol.com> wrote:
> -- Brian
> Talking about Gehenna playtest...
> Wow, eighteen months already...
> I thought it was only 15 so far...

Well, like 17 1/2 months.

Shoot. I thought it was 18 1/2, but whatever. :p 


Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 9:34:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 9 Mar 2005 17:29:54 -0800, Dasein <dasein2600@hotmail.com> wrote:

> btw, I don't think Red List is a "big honkin disability". Far from it.
> Rush decks will have rush in their hand anyway. Non-rush decks are
> unlikely to have threatening combat to do anything with the rush
> (considering she has for and OBF for combat defence, and they have to
> spend a master phase action AND a blood to rush, they may end up losing
> more blood than you in the process). Trophy cards are unlikely to be
> used unless by specific decks designed around marking people as Red
> List; and assuming they can do that (i.e. the deck is half-decent),
> there's not much disadvantage in being Red List in the first place.
>
> what do people think?
> This hasn't been discussed yet and could deserve a thread of its own.

Being Red List reads in practice: "Rush decks will never run out of
Rush cards when Rushing you. If your vampire is empty or low on blood,
she goes to torpor."

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 2:03:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Smiling Tom wrote:
> "charlotte vtes" <vtesrockssocks@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
> news:1110384370.175262.324210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Yeah, I think I'll give Mata a Chanjelin Ward with Aching Beauty then
>>get an Erebus Mask and perform Art Scams at 2 stealth. And if you want
>>to block. Fine, spend intercept and/or burn pool & blood and then I'll
>>Red Herring.
>>
> Aching beauty only works if the vampire is toreador while acting. So you
> should start to pack all those portraits and resplendent protectors

Won't help. Aching Beauty in play still won't treat her as a Toreador --
only the card she plays as a Toreador treats her as a Toreador.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 11:06:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:34:08 GMT, Daneel <daniel@eposta.hu> scrawled:

>On 9 Mar 2005 17:29:54 -0800, Dasein <dasein2600@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> btw, I don't think Red List is a "big honkin disability". Far from it.
>> Rush decks will have rush in their hand anyway. Non-rush decks are
>> unlikely to have threatening combat to do anything with the rush
>> (considering she has for and OBF for combat defence, and they have to
>> spend a master phase action AND a blood to rush, they may end up losing
>> more blood than you in the process). Trophy cards are unlikely to be
>> used unless by specific decks designed around marking people as Red
>> List; and assuming they can do that (i.e. the deck is half-decent),
>> there's not much disadvantage in being Red List in the first place.
>>
>> what do people think?
>> This hasn't been discussed yet and could deserve a thread of its own.
>
>Being Red List reads in practice: "Rush decks will never run out of
> Rush cards when Rushing you. If your vampire is empty or low on blood,
> she goes to torpor."

i don't know about you, but i found when playing rush decks on tables
with other rush decks, sometimes you jammed on the RUSH cards because
everyone else was rushing you.

kind of implies if they're using the red list trait, they'll jam on
rush. if they don't use the red list thing, it doesn't matter if she's
red list or not.

although, yeah, the red-list trait could be used to 'smooth out'
unfortunate shuffling where you don't manage to draw rush cards.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 8:47:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Dasein wrote:
| btw, I don't think Red List is a "big honkin disability". Far from it.
| Rush decks will have rush in their hand anyway. Non-rush decks are
| unlikely to have threatening combat to do anything with the rush
| (considering she has for and OBF for combat defence, and they have to
| spend a master phase action AND a blood to rush, they may end up losing
| more blood than you in the process). Trophy cards are unlikely to be
| used unless by specific decks designed around marking people as Red
| List; and assuming they can do that (i.e. the deck is half-decent),
| there's not much disadvantage in being Red List in the first place.
|
| what do people think?
| This hasn't been discussed yet and could deserve a thread of its own.

And so it shall have one.

The question: Is Red List a significant disadvantage?

Your view (please correct me if I state it wrong) is that Rush decks are
going to have Rush cards and will get you anyway, and non-Rush decks
will not have threatening combat, therefore it's not a disability.
Trophy cards don't add any incentive to rush the Red List guys.

In sequence...

- -- Rush decks do have Rush cards and so can get you anyway. But often a
Rush deck's hand becomes jammed with 7 combat cards, and he will need to
~ cycle; your minion's existence gives the deck a light of hope in its
darkness. I wouldn't be surprised to see it done cross-table occasionally.

- -- Non-Rush decks are not automatically non-combat decks. There are
many varieties of non-Rush decks that include significant combat;
intercept wall decks, bruise/bleed, and bruise/vote are the top three.
None of these decks include much Rush; some include absolutely none.
Against all these decks, your Red List minion is a huge disadvantage
since it adds a free combat option for them that they can use either as
needed or as opportune.

- -- Non-combat decks are the last variant; these decks don't really care
about your minion being Red List. Except, of course, that anyone can
strike hands-for-1, and when 4 minions jump you and punch for 1 each,
then your 3-blood minion is going to either visit Happy Torpor Land or
burn some of his precious combat defense.

- -- Trophy cards won't matter, you're right. Not unless your minion is
at 0 blood and just sitting there looking tasty, which is not all THAT
common.

Overall, what I see is that a minion being Red List gives EVERYONE a
better shot against him, but it's only one particular class of decks
that benefits greatly; the fighters that aren't based around Rush.
However, with the addition of more and more combat to the game, the days
when a deck can include no combat (or only combat defense) and not just
survive but win are starting to dwindle... and this will cause that
second class of decks to steadily increase.

So right now? I think it's a noticeable disadvantage to play Red List,
but influencing the minion doesn't mean it'll die instantly. Down the
road, Red List is going to become more and more of a disadvantage, as
more and more people include ways to hit back in their decks.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
March 11, 2005 10:37:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Your view (please correct me if I state it wrong) is that Rush decks are
> going to have Rush cards and will get you anyway, and non-Rush decks
> will not have threatening combat, therefore it's not a disability.
> Trophy cards don't add any incentive to rush the Red List guys.

For what it's worth, Derek, I think he mean that trophy cards are unlikely
to be included in decks that don't go out of their way to make vampires
red list on their own. As such, a random red list minion on the table is
unlikely to have greater incentive to be rushed based simply upon the
existence of trophy cards. . . because they won't be included in all
likelihood.

But that's just my take on his view.

However, the more general statement Derek made about combat defense not
being enough. . . that's true. Oh, for the days of l33thaxxorstealthbleed!
:) 

Ankur
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 11:13:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:32:51 -0800, "Kevin M."
<youwish@imaspammer.org> scrawled:

><firstconformist@aol.com> wrote:
>> -- Brian
>> Talking about Gehenna playtest...
>> Wow, eighteen months already...
>> I thought it was only 15 so far...
>
>Well, like 17 1/2 months.
>
>Shoot. I thought it was 18 1/2, but whatever. :p 

uh-oh....

no, wait, maybe if you allow dicussion of printed cards that are
functionally unchanged from their first presentation in playtest
_inside_ the 18 month window, and only forbid discussion of cards that
changed during playtest for that first 18 months...

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 12:12:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:47:17 -0500, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>So right now? I think it's a noticeable disadvantage to play Red List,
>but influencing the minion doesn't mean it'll die instantly. Down the
>road, Red List is going to become more and more of a disadvantage, as
>more and more people include ways to hit back in their decks.

Adding up to Derek's very reasonable points, I see the Red List trait
this way: it is as huge a disability as you want it to be.

To ilustrate this notion, let's see the red list vampires available
for now. Just looking for their disciplines, one can note that most
have OBF, so you get less combats per game happening if you play
plenty of stealth:

Mata Hari, 7, aus for qui CHI OBF, Ravnos, 4, [KMW]
Rabbat, The Sewer Goddess, 7, pot ANI FOR OBF, Nosferatu, 4, [KMW]
Tariq, The Silent (ADV), 7, cel AUS FOR OBF QUI, Assamite, 2, [KMW]
Alexis Sorokin, 8, for CEL CHI OBF PRO, Ravnos, 4, [KMW]
Petaniqua, 9, chi AUS DAI DEM OBF THA, Malkavian, 4, [KMW]
Petaniqua (ADV), 9, chi AUS DAI DEM OBF THA, Baali, 4, [KMW]
Kemintiri (ADV), 10, aus dom OBF PRE SER THA, Followers of Set, 2,
[KMW]
Enkidu, The Noah, 11, for ANI CEL OBF POT PRO, Gangrel Antitribu, 4,
[KMW]

Secure Haven is better when you have less chances of being blocked.
There's still Sleep Unseen, though I don't like to rely on rushers not
having [aus] or [AUS].

This one has [obf]:
Count Germaine (ADV), 8, obf CEL FOR POT PRE, Brujah, 4, [KMW]

and this one has two "block fails" cards available and +1
"permastealth" when merged:
Ambrogino Giovanni (ADV), 9, aus DOM NEC POT THA, Giovanni, 2, [KMW]

That's a total of 10 Red List vampires very difficult to block if one
uses them to act, and MEANS to ACT, not just "attempt to".

These others are another cup of tea:

Jayne Jonestown, 2, PRE, Brujah Antitribu, 4, [KMW]
Dylan (ADV), 6, aus cel dai dom pro FOR, Ventrue Antitribu, 2, [KMW]
Valerius Maior, Hell`s Fool (ADV), 7, nec pre AUS DAI DOM THA, Tremere
Antitribu, 4, [KMW]
Valerius Maior, Hell`s Fool, 7, nec pre AUS DAI DOM THA, Tremere, 4,
[KMW]

They will badly need combat defense either way. However, note that
they have good defensive options, from S:CE and prevention to
double-dodge and immunity to aggravated damage.
And Valerius even gets out of the List if merged.

That's not to say the Red List trait is too easy to overcome. What I'm
trying to point out is that they're not difficult to defend either *if
you plan accordingly*. Any combination of Secure Haven, transient
"don't rush me" cards (Secret Passage, the aforementioned Sleep
Unseen), solid combat defense and Priority Shift (provided you have
another titled minion out) could suffice, in theory. Even if you'd be
forced to spend precious combat defense before getting a more
permanent, reliable source of overcoming the trait, you're cycling,
and your chances of actually drawing a Secure Haven or Priority Shift
increase. And this "module" would help against any rusher, most of the
time, no matter if you have a Red List minion out or not (Priority
Shift aside).

On the other hand, I don't like to ease things for my predator. I'd be
inclined to include any form of quick bloodgain to avoid situations
like the one previously described - a horde of minions punching for 1
each to take advantage of my low on blood red lister.

Most of the time I wouldn't care if my predator has many rush cards or
not. I always assume I'll run the risk of getting a predator who is
exactly capable of foiling my defenses in combat, Red List or not.
Maybe that's because I play in a very combat-heavy environment, at
least for casual play, so packing (and focusing on) a type or two of
combat defense is a must, while trying to splash different combat
defense strategies is guaranteed torpor - most of the time you'll have
a dodge when you needed a maneuver, or a prevention card when you
needed a S:CE. Metagame issue, obviously, but that matches somehow the
direction this game is going, as pointed out by Derek.

All in all, it points out to one thing. You're Red List? Act quick and
dirty, try to gain lots of blood as soon as possible, and try to be
faster than your predator. If you manage this, you'll get better
chances to draw what you need to survive up to the endgame. Just
sitting out there defending is certain doom.

For cases where you're not Red List and fear being added to the List,
remember that your predator (assuming he's the one adding you) will
not be able to mark you and rush at the same turn (cornercase
situations like the Madness Network aside). So you have one full turn
to do something, from shifting priorities to Banishing his best combat
vampire, from rushing him yourself to Sensory Deprivating him. I guess
each vampire merits his own approach in that regard. Maybe it's a
chance for another round of Strategy Articles, like the ones based on
Events, this time for each Red Lister? Thoughts?

Forgive me if I wrote some bullshit, I'm somewhat in a hurry, and very
curious to see how I can handle some Red Listers. Ambrogino ADV will
surely be my first try, as appropriate.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 1:11:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:37:37 -0500, Ankur Gupta <agupta@cs.duke.edu>
wrote:

>> Your view (please correct me if I state it wrong) is that Rush decks are
>> going to have Rush cards and will get you anyway, and non-Rush decks
>> will not have threatening combat, therefore it's not a disability.
>> Trophy cards don't add any incentive to rush the Red List guys.
>
>For what it's worth, Derek, I think he mean that trophy cards are unlikely
>to be included in decks that don't go out of their way to make vampires
>red list on their own. As such, a random red list minion on the table is
>unlikely to have greater incentive to be rushed based simply upon the
>existence of trophy cards. . . because they won't be included in all
>likelihood.
>But that's just my take on his view.
>Ankur

I also have the impression that most Red List vampires would draw a
big target on their heads if they were not Red List, even the ones who
have some disabilities in their specials - provided the Red List
player builds up to their strengths, and I doubt any average player
would play a Red List vampire if not for "abusing" him as much as
possible.

If I had Rabbat controlled by my predator, I'd rush/Banish/Sensory
Deprivate/get hid of her as soon as possible before waiting for him or
her to use Hidden Lurker or Rebirth or any other scary thing with
Rabbat.

So, most of the time it seems there's no need to have trophies
available to "incentive" a rusher to select a Red List instead of any
other random vampire (exceptions made for those situations where a
rush deck would prefer to rush a weenie than some regular target
vampire like Arika: Fame + rescue, choosing to hit a vampire with no
Fortitude or Presence, and so on).

I guess we'll have to wait and see if these situations show up often
or not. I don't expect it in my metagame, though. Usually people in
here tend to gang up on the bigger threats, no matter if they're more
difficult to torporize than any other random support vampire.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 1:10:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Derek Ray wrote:

> The question: Is Red List a significant disadvantage?

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you. I mean, granted, most Red List guys are
pretty combat viable, and presumably, if you are using a solid Red List
minion, you are probably going to have solid combat making rushing you an
unattractive proposition, but where Red List *really* is going to hurt you
is when you are looking down and kind of knife-edging in a game where you
have been looking threatening most of the time, everyone at the table is
able to go and get in a fight, even if they are going to, like, sacrifice a
single weenie to just punch you for one if it send you to torpor.

It also gives people an opportunity to attack you on their terms, should it
become important--you have Count Germaine Advanced with an Assault Rifle who
is messing up the table. I have weenie Animalism and I manage to draw into a
Canine Horde. Likely, I'll Red List you just to eat your gun.

I mean, yeah, really potent Rush decks are going to have Rush actions and
Haven Uncovereds to play instead of the Red List attacks, but Red List makes
opportunistic combat for decks that are packing light combat but no Rush
possible, and usually will happen at the least convinient time.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 6:09:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I'd like to take this opportunity to disagree with Derek Ray. Ah, it's
been too long since I've said that...

For one, Red List gives you the potential for being able to cycle your
combat. You're jammed up on combat cards (or combat defense) and no
one will block you? Maybe you're lucky enough that someone will
actually pay a blood and an MPA for the privilege of cycling your
combat for you. Heck, it's possible that a crosstable ally will also
want to cycle combat and he may be able to do something like rush you,
cycle maneuvers back and forth, strike with 8 strength knowing you can
dodge, then press to continue and you press to end, or something
similar.

Sure, those situations aren't incredibly likely, but I don't think it's
any more unreasonable to think that I might be choking on combat
defense than it is to think that a combat deck is choking on combat
cards with no rush. It's true that your opponent gets to be proactive
about it and you just have to wait for him to rush you. But you have
to take combat defense into account when building a deck, so if you
can't deal with people rushing you with a Red List action, what makes
you think the deck would have been able to deal with standard rush
cards?

And as for your situation where Mata Hari is sitting at 3 blood and
your opponent has 4 weenies rush her... well, assuming all combats are
hit-for-hands (not like Mata Hari doesn't have fortitude, but okay), my
opponent is spending 8 blood and 4 actions in order to make me lose 5
blood and 1 action (assuming I rescue)? Okay, sign me up. That's a
trade I'll make any day even against a weenie predator. A rush for 1
blood damage that costs a blood is better than a bleed for 2 that's
free.

Sure, Red List will occasionally hurt you. But how many points of a
disadvantage do we really think it is? Personally, I put it as a
half-point disadvantage. Whereas it seems like Red List vamps gain an
extra full point of disciplines/specials. Seems like a good trade...
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 3:36:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Fabio "Sooner" wrote:
> On the other hand, I don't like to ease things for my predator. I'd be
> inclined to include any form of quick bloodgain to avoid situations
> like the one previously described - a horde of minions punching for 1
> each to take advantage of my low on blood red lister.

Don´t forget that rushing via the RedList marking thing costs a blood,
so even if you have 4 weenies available you won´t probably sacrifice
them just to punch 4 blood off a minion, because the will more likely
than not end up in torpor. In addition to that you have to spend your
master phase action to mark the minion, another disadvantage.

To sum it up I would think that the occasional crosstable rush will
happen less often than you think.

--
johannes walch
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 3:36:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:36:52 +0100, Johannes Walch
<johannes.walch@vekn.de> wrote:

>Fabio "Sooner" wrote:
>> On the other hand, I don't like to ease things for my predator. I'd be
>> inclined to include any form of quick bloodgain to avoid situations
>> like the one previously described - a horde of minions punching for 1
>> each to take advantage of my low on blood red lister.

>Don´t forget that rushing via the RedList marking thing costs a blood,
>so even if you have 4 weenies available you won´t probably sacrifice
>them just to punch 4 blood off a minion, because the will more likely
>than not end up in torpor.

I guess it dependes badly on what Red List you're using and how you
are packing combat. No one would do weenie swarm against Enkidu,
Rabbat or Count Germaine ADV most of the time. Even Ambrogino ADV or
Kemintiri ADV could prove difficult to weenie swarm if you've already
packed, say, some Theft of Vitae and Apportations to use with them.


In addition to that you have to spend your
>master phase action to mark the minion, another disadvantage.

Yeah, I guess we're not taking into account the master phase action
also.
This can be roughly compared to Chas Giovanni's disadvantage. I've
only seen people wasting a master card and a master phase action when
he's bleeding or rushing and they don't have combat defense in hand;
most of the time he's able to do what he wants, from Govern down to
hunting to whatever. Maybe the issue will be the same with the Red
List trait.


>To sum it up I would think that the occasional crosstable rush will
>happen less often than you think.

The problem here is how much of a threat the Red List minion is.
That's what bugs me. I'm certain that Ambrogino merged will be rushed
at least once per turn, sometimes crosstable (specially when my prey
is getting hammered down by 3 bleed at +1 stealth every turn). I
wouldn't play him merged with less than a bunch of Spiritual
Interventions and Disengages (and still I'd have to worry about
Thoughts Betrayed, Psyche!, Hidden Lurker and such). Say, at least 8
S:CE and 6 Disengages. Maybe more of both.

The options are to play Red List minions in combat decks (Alexis,
Count Germaine ADV, Enkidu and Rabbat strike me as the easiest in that
regard) or either play low-key with them, which does not seem likely.
Why I'd play Kemintiri ADV or Mata Hari if not for "abusing" their
specials?

All in all, it still seems to me that making a generalization of how
much a disadvantage the Red List trait is could be problematic, since
there are so many option with each of them. Maybe it's better to break
down the available red listers and estimate how much combat (defense
or offense) you'd need to pack to defend them individually. I'm not
sure one can put Jayne Jonestown and Enkidu in the same bag when
talking how much the Red List trait is going to affect them.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
March 13, 2005 5:29:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> > I'm not up for trying ways to break things....
>
> What are you?!? A pinko Communist??!!!

Yes.
Is there a problem?

> C'MON! Break stuff!!! Invent a nefarious scheme for controlling the
board and
> bringing your opponents under your vice-grip-like control - all by
abusing a card
> or combo in a way no one would ever have thought of.

I don't have the time, nor am I that big a geek.

--> J
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 9:21:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Fabio "Sooner" wrote:
> I'm not
> sure one can put Jayne Jonestown and Enkidu in the same bag when
> talking how much the Red List trait is going to affect them.

I am not sure about Enkidu (for example). In a one man show rush deck
like Enkidu or Karsh the possibility to rush this minion at any moment
is probably a big advantage for your opponents. Sure, under normal
conditions the wouldn´t do it but what if they know that your hand isn´t
in the best state und he is rather low on blood? Then the red list trait
is perfect to sink him, and in the one man show deck you cannot afford
to loose the minion (because they will most likely diablerize and you
don´t have any ways of stopping them) but I can imagine for example a
deck with Mata Hari where she goes to torpor and you still have other
Ravnos to block the diablerie etc..

--
johannes walch
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:28:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:21:59 +0100, Johannes Walch
<johannes.walch@vekn.de> wrote:

>Fabio "Sooner" wrote:
>> I'm not
>> sure one can put Jayne Jonestown and Enkidu in the same bag when
>> talking how much the Red List trait is going to affect them.
>
>I am not sure about Enkidu (for example). In a one man show rush deck
>like Enkidu or Karsh the possibility to rush this minion at any moment
>is probably a big advantage for your opponents. Sure, under normal
>conditions the wouldn´t do it but what if they know that your hand isn´t
>in the best state und he is rather low on blood? Then the red list trait
>is perfect to sink him, and in the one man show deck you cannot afford
>to loose the minion (because they will most likely diablerize and you
>don´t have any ways of stopping them) but I can imagine for example a
>deck with Mata Hari where she goes to torpor and you still have other
>Ravnos to block the diablerie etc..

That's why I previously said I think the Red List trait is as much a
disadvantage as you want it to be. I wouldn't play any of them as a
one-man show - these decks are already risky, no matter if the main
star is Red List or not. Note that I like these decks, but I always
play them knowing that I'm taking some risks other types of decks
wouldn't suffer. I can't imagine someone playing Fatima Multi-Rush if
she were Red List. It just take someone to have a Canine Horde in hand
to arrange any good deal and put an end to Fatima's assault (pun
intended).
But that's how far I'd go when putting all of them red listers in the
same bag.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now)
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 6:24:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

While I don't think there's a way to "break" Mata Hari, I feel like
there's some great little combo waiting in the wings, sorta like the
Recycling Aurora deck
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...).

I've been trying to think of a way to abuse Undying Thirst with Mata
Hari. Maybe an Undying Thirst/Camarilla Vitae Slave/Soul Gem deck.
But really, Crimson Fury seems like it's absolutely required, and Mata
Hari is a Ravnos without Animalism. It might be fun to have Mata Hari
block people with Draba, Undying Thirst, and Bloodstorm of Chorizo
Tacos, and get an ani weenie into torpor (like Bothwell, Muse, or Leon,
for instance, using Daring the Dawn), and have them repeatedly play
Crimson Fury at inferior. It's the "I block you once, and now you are
forever doomed to useless stupid actions" deck. That deck could simply
be done with Baali using Sense the Sin for the intercept, but Mata Hari
avoids having to pay the infernal penalty. Doesn't seem worth it
somehow.

Maybe just building a normal deck but with all sorts of fun clan toys
would be fun. Ventrue Headquarters, Hostile Takeover, Art Scam, Waste
Management, Political Seizure, Muddles, City Gangrel Connections,
Gangrel Conspiracy, Chanjelin Ward, etc... You might be able to make
something decent out of that, but it wouldn't be as fun as truly
abusing some combo that was never meant to be put together.

Maybe a new Mill deck using Slaughterhouses, Dirty Little Secrets, and
Scrying of Secrets (but would need a skill card to get superior AUS)...

I don't know... there's just so much potential, but nothing that really
jumps out at you.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 8:41:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <d55clq$gis$1@domitilla.aioe.org>, XZealot
<x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com> writes:
>> IME, the best way of playing any one-vamp-deck is including Pentex
>> subversion in your deck.
>
>Yes, that is a good plan, unless some other players take the action to burn
>it.

However, there is also the possibility of including it in your one-vamp-
deck in order to contest it. Similarly, rush decks used to include
Elysium: The Arboretum to contest it.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 9:55:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

James Coupe wrote:
> However, there is also the possibility of including it in your one-vamp-
> deck in order to contest it. Similarly, rush decks used to include
> Elysium: The Arboretum to contest it.

? I prefer rampage to contesting. It´s more versatile because it helps
against any type of problematic location (Secure Haven, Elysium). It
doesn´t cost pool to play and you don´t have to pay pool to contest.
Pool is a scarce resource in combat decks IMHO ;-)

Of course it doesn´t help against the Pentex, but hey in case a Pentex
hits your one man show you have to be the bitch of the one removing it
:-) waiting for your copy of it without the possibility of cycling ain´t
gonna work I guess.

--
johannes walch
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 9:55:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Johannes Walch" <johannes.walch@vekn.de> schreef in bericht
news:D 55ihq$3ab$1@news01.versatel.de...
> James Coupe wrote:
>> However, there is also the possibility of including it in your one-vamp-
>> deck in order to contest it. Similarly, rush decks used to include
>> Elysium: The Arboretum to contest it.
>
> ? I prefer rampage to contesting. It´s more versatile because it helps
> against any type of problematic location (Secure Haven, Elysium). It
> doesn´t cost pool to play and you don´t have to pay pool to contest. Pool
> is a scarce resource in combat decks IMHO ;-)

rampage has its own problems (apart from it being a potence card, but you
can use arson anyway): it's a 0 stealth action. Smash and Grab is better but
requires an anarch Most of the time Rampage/Arson s just another rush,
except when you killed everyone except the secured minion. And Elysium is
not the problem is was in the beginning of Jyhad: just go Anarch.
>
> Of course it doesn´t help against the Pentex, but hey in case a Pentex
> hits your one man show you have to be the bitch of the one removing it :-)
> waiting for your copy of it without the possibility of cycling ain´t gonna
> work I guess.
>
Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a
cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious
table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a
rushing Enkidu.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 9:55:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a
> cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious
> table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a
> rushing Enkidu.

If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his prey's
key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class. Enkidu is not a
threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is quite a
powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you if
you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex
Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since
Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on the
first turn that he is un-Pentexed.


--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 9:55:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"XZealot" <x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht
news:D 55kho$3m0$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
>> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a
>> cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious
>> table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a
>> rushing Enkidu.
>
> If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his prey's
> key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class.

I was speaking about when your deck absolutely can't handle sitting next to
Enkidu. In general I agree, of course.

>Enkidu is not a
> threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is quite
> a
> powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you if
> you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex
> Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since
> Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on the
> first turn that he is un-Pentexed.

that falls under good reasons to free him. :)  But probalby the grand prey of
the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so.

But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind to a
halt why would I do that? Easy vp for my prey but still a shot at teh GW is
better than a easy VP for me and no chance in hell at a table win. If I'm
Enkidu's grand pred (in a 5 player game) it can also mean that my grandpred
get's no pressure whatsoever and can put pressure on my pred, which as we
all know is a good thing.

you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are not
known as GOOD.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 9:55:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Jeroen Rombauts" <jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote in message
news:4%sde.79413$lk7.5142593@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "XZealot" <x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht
> news:D 55kho$3m0$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
>>> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a
>>> cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious
>>> table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a
>>> rushing Enkidu.
>>
>> If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his prey's
>> key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class.
>
> I was speaking about when your deck absolutely can't handle sitting next
> to Enkidu. In general I agree, of course.

Who can handle Enkidu? Not a whole lot of people, but he is going to be
pretty ragged if predator has put any pressure on him at all after being
without a vampire for 4 or more turns.

>>Enkidu is not a
>> threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is
>> quite a
>> powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you if
>> you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex
>> Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since
>> Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on
>> the
>> first turn that he is un-Pentexed.
>
> that falls under good reasons to free him. :)  But probalby the grand prey
> of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so.

Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an easy
V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most to
lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that
anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong. Enkidu's
prey is gaining free reign to send all his minions after Enkidu's grand prey
and Ekidu's grand prey is spending all his resources defending himself from
an unrelenting onslaught. While you will undoubtable find it pleasurable to
not have a predator, you are actually the person who is in one of the worst
positions at the table. Your prey is going to gain 6 pool. Your grand
predator (who has no predator) will more than likely oust your predator and
gain 6 pool. This leaves a 3 way table with everyone but you having 1 VP
and six extra pool.

> But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind to
> a halt why would I do that?

To keep yourself within reach of the Game Win.

(snip really confusing example that I could not understand)

> you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are not
> known as GOOD.

Allowing your prey to get a VP is always BAD, no matter how many celestial
bodies you line up to try to justify it.


--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 10:11:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 2 May 2005 12:54:35 -0500, XZealot <x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com>
wrote:

>> that falls under good reasons to free him. :)  But probalby the grand
>> prey
>> of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so.
>
> Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an
> easy
> V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most
> to
> lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that
> anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong.

Well, I kind of think that the player playing Enkidu is sort of worried
too. I also think he or she may lose more by being ousted than me
(portrayed in the example as his or her grandpredator).

>> you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are
>> not
>> known as GOOD.
>
> Allowing your prey to get a VP is always BAD, no matter how many
> celestial
> bodies you line up to try to justify it.

I disagree. I'm a big fan of the "Go left." school. I play like that: go
left. That is, however, an inferior style of play when compared to
thinking in tables. If you can be beaten by Enkidu and Enkidu alone, you
should let him get ousted. This way you are one step closer to winning
the game even if your prey took the VP (provided that you can handle your
prey at +6 pool). Good players often allow the VPs for very dangerous
decks to go down the drain in order to secure a reasonable GW.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 10:11:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Well, I kind of think that the player playing Enkidu is sort of worried
> too. I also think he or she may lose more by being ousted than me
> (portrayed in the example as his or her grandpredator).

I would say that someone with a Pentex'd Enkidu is within a few turns of
being ousted. There is just too much wrapped up in Enkidu for his
controller to be able to survive without him.

> I disagree. I'm a big fan of the "Go left." school. I play like that: go
> left. That is, however, an inferior style of play when compared to
> thinking in tables. If you can be beaten by Enkidu and Enkidu alone, you
> should let him get ousted. This way you are one step closer to winning
> the game even if your prey took the VP (provided that you can handle your
> prey at +6 pool). Good players often allow the VPs for very dangerous
> decks to go down the drain in order to secure a reasonable GW.

There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu alone",
that is a strawman arguement. All decks can be beaten. I think that if you
let your prey's Pentex stay on the table then you are more than likely
saying that you want to have a very difficult game.
You will almost assuridly have to go through 6 more pool.
--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 10:17:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"XZealot" <x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht
news:D 55pab$eme$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
>
> "Jeroen Rombauts" <jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote in message
> news:4%sde.79413$lk7.5142593@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "XZealot" <x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht
>> news:D 55kho$3m0$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
>>>> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a
>>>> cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the
>>>> obvious
>>>> table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with
>>>> a
>>>> rushing Enkidu.
>>>
>>> If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his
>>> prey's
>>> key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class.
>>
>> I was speaking about when your deck absolutely can't handle sitting next
>> to Enkidu. In general I agree, of course.
>
> Who can handle Enkidu? Not a whole lot of people, but he is going to be
> pretty ragged if predator has put any pressure on him at all after being
> without a vampire for 4 or more turns.

There's a difference in being able to oust and just die while you're next to
them. fr.ex if you rely on obedience as you combat defence (eg Malkav
voters) you can do nothing against Enkidu. And taking down your 2 (max 3)
vamps won't be a problem. With nothing you can do about it. Worse still:
the Enkidu player HAS to do it, because even with one vamp you can still
oust him.

>
>>>Enkidu is not a
>>> threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is
>>> quite a
>>> powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you
>>> if
>>> you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex
>>> Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since
>>> Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on
>>> the
>>> first turn that he is un-Pentexed.
>>
>> that falls under good reasons to free him. :)  But probalby the grand prey
>> of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so.
>
> Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an
> easy
> V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most
> to
> lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that
> anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong.

you're contradicting yourself: see below.

>Enkidu's
> prey is gaining free reign to send all his minions after Enkidu's grand
> prey
> and Ekidu's grand prey is spending all his resources defending himself
> from
> an unrelenting onslaught.

which would be stupid if he could unpentex Enkidu. which is why he's the
one who should do it.

>While you will undoubtable find it pleasurable to
> not have a predator, you are actually the person who is in one of the
> worst
> positions at the table. Your prey is going to gain 6 pool. Your grand
> predator (who has no predator) will more than likely oust your predator
> and
> gain 6 pool. This leaves a 3 way table with everyone but you having 1 VP
> and six extra pool.

wow there: first you say that I'm worst of because of the Pentex and then
you make the leap that my predator will be dead. Who was worst off? And,
again: special circumstances: what if my deck actually wants to go to the 3
player game as fast as possible?

>
>> But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind
>> to
>> a halt why would I do that?
>
> To keep yourself within reach of the Game Win.

with 1 vp gone and 4 players left you can still win the table.

>
> (snip really confusing example that I could not understand)
>
>> you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are
>> not
>> known as GOOD.
>
> Allowing your prey to get a VP is always BAD, no matter how many celestial
> bodies you line up to try to justify it.
>
generalisations <-> special circumstances. That's the only thing I'm
saying.

and if we're talking about generalisations, I can make one too: it's better
that your prey gets 1 VP and you win the table than you getting a VP and not
winning the table. logically sound, but doesn't actually mean anything.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 10:17:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> There's a difference in being able to oust and just die while you're next
> to them. fr.ex if you rely on obedience as you combat defence (eg Malkav
> voters) you can do nothing against Enkidu. And taking down your 2 (max 3)
> vamps won't be a problem. With nothing you can do about it. Worse still:
> the Enkidu player HAS to do it, because even with one vamp you can still
> oust him.

Okay, So you are saying that you not gaining 6 pool, your prey gaining 6
pool and a Victory Point is better than you gaining 6 pool and a Victory
Point. That is a 12 pool swing. You are more afraid of Enkidu than the
deck that ousted the Enkidu deck. That seems very myopic to me.

>>>>Enkidu is not a
>>>> threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is
>>>> quite a
>>>> powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you
>>>> if
>>>> you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex
>>>> Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially
>>>> since
>>>> Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on
>>>> the
>>>> first turn that he is un-Pentexed.
>>>
>>> that falls under good reasons to free him. :)  But probalby the grand
>>> prey
>>> of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so.
>>
>> Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an
>> easy
>> V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most
>> to
>> lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that
>> anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong.
>
> you're contradicting yourself: see below.

but I am not....see below....

>>Enkidu's
>> prey is gaining free reign to send all his minions after Enkidu's grand
>> prey
>> and Ekidu's grand prey is spending all his resources defending himself
>> from
>> an unrelenting onslaught.
>
> which would be stupid if he could unpentex Enkidu. which is why he's the
> one who should do it.

You can only choose to unpentex Enkidu during your turn which is after your
predator's turn. Either your predator hasn't tried to unPentex Enkidu or he
has tried and failed. By the time you have the opportunity to unPentex
Enkidu it is critical that you do so.

>>While you will undoubtable find it pleasurable to
>> not have a predator, you are actually the person who is in one of the
>> worst
>> positions at the table. Your prey is going to gain 6 pool. Your grand
>> predator (who has no predator) will more than likely oust your predator
>> and
>> gain 6 pool. This leaves a 3 way table with everyone but you having 1 VP
>> and six extra pool.
>
> wow there: first you say that I'm worst of because of the Pentex and then
> you make the leap that my predator will be dead. Who was worst off?

(snipped special circumstances)

Again, you are in the worst position because you have the opportunity to do
the most about it, and from what you are saying, you will convince yourself
that the strategic move is to give your prey 6 pool and a V.P. over you
keeping your grandprey in the game and denying your prey 6 pool.

By not removing the Pentex when you have the opportunity to gives your prey
a whole turn to again try to oust Enkidu's controller. You are allowing him
to keep a huge advantage when you have the opportunity to get rid of it.

>>> But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind
>>> to
>>> a halt why would I do that?
>>
>> To keep yourself within reach of the Game Win.
>
> with 1 vp gone and 4 players left you can still win the table.

Yes, but you have 6 more pool to overcome than any other player on the 4
person table. So that puts you in the most difficult position.


> generalisations <-> special circumstances. That's the only thing I'm
> saying.
>
> and if we're talking about generalisations, I can make one too: it's
> better that your prey gets 1 VP and you win the table than you getting a
> VP and not winning the table. logically sound, but doesn't actually mean
> anything.

Strawman, there is no such thing as a Guaranteed Game Win, no matter how
many Victory Point you give to other players.
--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 10:58:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 2 May 2005 13:23:21 -0500, XZealot <x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com>
wrote:

>
>> Well, I kind of think that the player playing Enkidu is sort of worried
>> too. I also think he or she may lose more by being ousted than me
>> (portrayed in the example as his or her grandpredator).
>
> I would say that someone with a Pentex'd Enkidu is within a few turns of
> being ousted. There is just too much wrapped up in Enkidu for his
> controller to be able to survive without him.
>
>> I disagree. I'm a big fan of the "Go left." school. I play like that: go
>> left. That is, however, an inferior style of play when compared to
>> thinking in tables. If you can be beaten by Enkidu and Enkidu alone,
>> you
>> should let him get ousted. This way you are one step closer to winning
>> the game even if your prey took the VP (provided that you can handle
>> your
>> prey at +6 pool). Good players often allow the VPs for very dangerous
>> decks to go down the drain in order to secure a reasonable GW.
>
> There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu
> alone",

Yes, true. But, given a table and real decks, you will always need to fear
certain decks more and others less. If Enkidu is your bane, than letting
him get ousted is the way to go (and not doing so is stupid).

> that is a strawman arguement. All decks can be beaten. I think that if
> you
> let your prey's Pentex stay on the table then you are more than likely
> saying that you want to have a very difficult game.
> You will almost assuridly have to go through 6 more pool.

Well, otherwise, one VP later you might end up getting pummeled to death
by none other than Enkidu. Since in the majority of the games you won't
be standing up with 1/5, you might as well at least try to choose which
VPs you shoot at and which VPs you decide to do without. Always shooting
for 5 VPs is the surest way to miss the GW. Well, not THE surest, but a
pretty sure way nevertheless. ;) 

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 10:58:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

>> There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu
>> alone",
>
> Yes, true. But, given a table and real decks, you will always need to fear
> certain decks more and others less. If Enkidu is your bane, than letting
> him get ousted is the way to go (and not doing so is stupid).

Enkidu is everybody's bane. He can kill any vampire on his turn, but that
shouldn't stop you from ousting Enkidu's predator.

>> that is a strawman arguement. All decks can be beaten. I think that if
>> you
>> let your prey's Pentex stay on the table then you are more than likely
>> saying that you want to have a very difficult game.
>> You will almost assuridly have to go through 6 more pool.
>
> Well, otherwise, one VP later you might end up getting pummeled to death
> by none other than Enkidu. Since in the majority of the games you won't
> be standing up with 1/5, you might as well at least try to choose which
> VPs you shoot at and which VPs you decide to do without. Always shooting
> for 5 VPs is the surest way to miss the GW. Well, not THE surest, but a
> pretty sure way nevertheless. ;) 

And yet, there is no surer way to keep your prey from being ousted than by
you his predator giving him pool. If you can't oust your prey, you can't
win the game.

--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 12:11:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 2 May 2005 14:22:22 -0500, XZealot <x_zealot@brucefoodsla.com>
wrote:

>
>>> There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu
>>> alone",
>>
>> Yes, true. But, given a table and real decks, you will always need to
>> fear
>> certain decks more and others less. If Enkidu is your bane, than
>> letting
>> him get ousted is the way to go (and not doing so is stupid).
>
> Enkidu is everybody's bane. He can kill any vampire on his turn, but
> that
> shouldn't stop you from ousting Enkidu's predator.

Well, borrowing from other posts, a fattie deck using Obedience as defence
can well become minionless in one turn if Enkidu sees to it. On the other
hand, a mid-cap deck that packs maneuvers, prevent and S:CE might well
withstand the wrath of Enkidu for a turn or two (being enough for the
oust).

I see it to be perfectly reasonable to allow your prey to oust the
multirush deck and then proceed to oust him. I see it to be completely
foolhardy to help your grandprey who will then eventually kill your
vampires (possibly even before you ousted your prey, if your prey makes
a deal with the Enkidu deck!).

>> Well, otherwise, one VP later you might end up getting pummeled to death
>> by none other than Enkidu. Since in the majority of the games you won't
>> be standing up with 1/5, you might as well at least try to choose which
>> VPs you shoot at and which VPs you decide to do without. Always
>> shooting
>> for 5 VPs is the surest way to miss the GW. Well, not THE surest, but a
>> pretty sure way nevertheless. ;) 
>
> And yet, there is no surer way to keep your prey from being ousted than
> by
> you his predator giving him pool. If you can't oust your prey, you can't
> win the game.

As noted by another poster: getting a VP and then being ousted is a lot
worse than losing a VP and then getting the GW.

--
Bye,

Daneel
!