READ this- all the hype

[alpha_03]

Hmmmm dont mean to go off on a rant? it saddens me, from the few post i have read here in the last 30 mins all i see is a bunch of unloyal nvidia fans. in the quest for more and more speed when is enough enough? i say never, to a point however, sometimes to much of a thing can be just as bad. the expectations of we consumers has reached a point that soon no manufacter will be able to atain our wants, then what? in truth, it really angers me when i buy a $200.00/$400.00 video card and 3/6 months later it's old and out dated. what everyone should truely be addressing is SCALAIBILITY not "video card bick lighters". listen up ati and nvida this one is for both of you, learn from AMD---> SCALABILITY. why in this present economy whould i want to replace a video card that just one year ago was top dog, with another top dog that now, is in turn out dated with in 6 mos?

lets review what's really going on here between ati and nvidia. a while back a much loved (or hated in some cases i suppose) company went under called 3dfx, bought up by? nvidia. how long ago was that? over 3 years or so ago. since then nvidia has been building the best looking and fastest video cards for the consumer market, here i will insert a comment from www.techtite.com

" Lesson to be learned : 3Dfx thought that gamers were more interested in frames per second than quality 3D acceleration effects. Conversely, graphics chip companies like Nvidia felt that fps wasn't as important as allowing gamers to see graphics in as much quality as they desired. Who was right? Well, let's put it this way; the 3Dfx company was sold out to Nvidia."

seems funny to this reader that in appearance f/p/s is all many of you care to care about? 8 mos ago gforce4 was still king and eveyone was happy. then came the radeon 9000() series, and well, seem'd the grass is greener on the ati side of the fence for some of you. well i will stick to my guns and have a good laugh when nvida comes charging back on the sceen and all the 9000()series ati people will wish they'd of waited. take for example the amd/intel processor war. who is back on top now? intel. and the way it appears with the advent of hyper threading, its gonna stay that way for a while. not to mention the present amd processor has reached its end of SCALABILITY (but a 5 year run? wow). oh and btw i run an athlon xp2500 barton and love it.

after being involved in this crazy world of pc marketing as a consumer for the past 8 years one thing i've come to learn is you cant win all the time.

on a final note, i do send praise to ati for FINALLY making a decent graphics chip, must of really sucked being on the bottom for so long. remember, when your on top someones always gunning for ya. live it up while ya can ati, nvidia will be back very soon and then what? guess i went off on a rant

 

[MindCrime]

*ducks*

<b>If it aint broke, then hell, you aint looking at it in the right frame of mind!</b>

 

[jaythaman]

hey come back to the real world buddy lol

My computer NEVER cras...DOH!.

 

[alpha_03]

you know darn well i speak the truth and after all thats what fourms are for

 

[jaythaman]

lol yea but thats human nature.. always asking for more. If there wasnt any windows after 95 then we'd all still be running fine on out pentium I and K6-2s. It's like a vicious circle Newer games demand more hardware so there is the need for new crap.
and hey btw I think youre right my mx runs even ut2003 at very playable rates but seeing all the People rant about the eye candy in the games makes me want more . And like Doom III everybody here is discussing about how it tuns on the r9700s and 4600s OH MY GOD if it doesnt run on my mx then Carmack can go kiss my ugly behind but i'm not upgradin till i beat the hell out of my new system like i did to my previous sys. It had a 2mb pci card so it couldnt run any new games so the hell with it i wont play!

My computer NEVER cras...DOH!.

 

[alpha_03]

maybe i wasnt as clear as i should have been. scalability would solve that problem (new games ect.) i mean do you realize that the average gpu contains more transistors than the average cpu. and ill bet a 1 gig duron will run any normal app/game thats out at present. it's seems strange to me that more people don't demand more longivity from their products. lets say you buy a new graphics card each year at an average of $300.00 over 5 years, man thats a new pc. i'd rather buy a new processor say every other year and just pay for an "upgrade" to my video card (swap out the gpu). i know many people that play and do the same things i do with my hot rod machine and they simply cant afford the "trick" parts. for me its a hobby, for others not. so i guess from your point of view you make lots of scence. that dont mean i gots ta like it.

 

[Twitch]

[Reply Rant]

Isn't the answer obvious? Here's how it works.

nVidia designs GPU. GPU is three generations ahead of current technology. nVidia sells production (3 generations removed from R&D) GPUs to board designers. Millions of consumer shell out billions of dollars for boards with said GPUs. nVidia mkes hundreds of millions of dollars.

Six months later, nVidia releases next generation GPU to board manufacturers. Millions of consumer shell out billions of dollars for said GPUs. nVidia makes hundreds of millions of dollars. A few hundred thousand of those consumers ALSO bought the previous generation of GPU six months prior.

Now, tell me you aren't really wondering why the industry works the way it does??? The product cycle generates billions of dollars anually into the coffers of graphics card manufacturers.

Now, assume neither NVIDIA nor ATI is real eager to reduce their revenues. (Especially ATI, who has lost money for several years running...) Assume, also, that the board manufacturers like Xtasy, Sapphire, ASUS, and MSI are also perfectly content with the revenues they make off grahics cards. If they were to change to your system, I'll wager the graphics mainboards would run, ohh...$300 or so, and the GPU upgrade chips would still run, ohhhh, $500 or so. In other words, they're still gonna make what they make--dollars-wise.

Don't think that I disagree with your sentiment, though. I have reached a point where I refuse to upgrade until new graphics cards are at least double the speed of my current graphics card. I refuse to spend big money for a 15-20% boost in speed. The problem is, the PC industry is all about planned obsolecence. Without it, PC's would cost about $5000 each and buying a new graphics card would be a seven or eight hundred dollar investment.

Therein lies the reason why competition is SOOOOOOO important. It also shows why the two-party-system (giant corporation A vs. giant corporation B) is not really competition. When you have the A vs B (nVidia vs. ATI) system, the two companies play off one another, hedging their bets, trying to stay within 10-20% of each other, always afraid to really open the accelerator for fear the other guy has something better in the wings. Why do you think ATI's new R350 VPU is nothing more than a ramped up R300 with some hardware features enabled through drivers? That technology was already there, but they CHOSE not to enable it on the R300. Why do you think Intel had several Northwood cores previous to the 3.06 HT that had hyperthreading on the core, but it just wasn't enabled?

It's all about strategic positioning, and not biting the hand that feeds. That's why true competition is the only answer, and it's also why I get so bent out of shape at fanboys who have "loyalties." We are consumers. We should buy the best value. Period. Doing so forces companies to give us better and better value. If SiS could hit the market with a GPU that blows away 9800 PRO, people will buy it. Three companies in real competition makes it virtually impossible for the strategic manipulating of the marketplace we continually see. We should root for this. We don't though. We choose sides as if these companies are somehow more than greedy, manipulative money-changers. We really are encouraging the process by not only feeding the machine, but by becoming a cog within it. Let's see how long ATI can hold onto their lead over nVidia. If they can extend their lead for one or two more years and put nVidia out of the GFX business, you will see product refreshes from ATI with nothing more than a 10-20% increase and a handful of new features. You will see ATI engaging in blatantly anti-competitive behavior, like building exclusive optimizations onto their boards and applying pressure on developers to implement those optimizations in order to "get the most" out of their product. Just like nVidia does.

God it would be nice if SiS or Matrox or Trident or someone could jump into the fray with a real, bonafide contender. Xabre sucks. Parhelia is only good for 2D. What else is out there? Someone needs to step up and BE A MAN in the graphics arena.

And BTW, I really WANT a 9800 PRO-256!


<-----Insert witty sig line here.

 

[Mr_Underhill]

Well, said, Twitch. Nice reply rant.

 

[cleeve]

---------------------------------
Alpha 03 wrote:
" Lesson to be learned : 3Dfx thought that gamers were more interested in frames per second than quality 3D acceleration effects. Conversely, graphics chip companies like Nvidia felt that fps wasn't as important as allowing gamers to see graphics in as much quality as they desired. Who was right? Well, let's put it this way; the 3Dfx company was sold out to Nvidia."
---------------------------------

Not sure if I can agree with that point. As I recall, 3dFX was the driving force behind Antialiassing and image quality, while Nvidia was going for rediculously high framerates.
Didn't Nvidia only implement AA on the Geforce because of 3dFX's success? I could be remembering this wrong though, feel free to correct me.


- Cleeve

 

[eden]

nvidia will be back very soon

It really sounds to me like you are giving nVidia hope like a sage foreseeing the future.
Well dude, go read both THG and Anandtech's reviews of the FX5600 Ultra and FX5200Ultra and come back telling me once again "Wait and see"...

nVidia disappointed much more with the FX5600 Ultra's humiliating results, and are constantly losing trust in all of us, with any hope for any card we could buy from them. Once again, ATi will be the best purchase in the next 6 months, for sure. Any kind of <b>moron</b>, and I do outline MORON that still refuses to buy ATi in the mainstream and goes for the FX5600 Ultra, I swear, deserves to be beaten till he cries about being born. Then he can live on regretting his purchase.

--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 03/11/03 04:53 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[JDig]

Hey,

Look I have a bit of a fundamental problem with the recent ATI cards. Granted ATI have the technological lead over Nvidia at present. However I find ATI's manufacturing tactics a little more than suspect.

They seem to be letting extremely dubious, previously unheard of, manufacturers loose on their reference design. Sapphire Graphics (Russian??), Connect 3d (.....manufacturing outsourced to China), etc. What are the long term reliability of these products??? Nvidia on the other hand has some more reputable manufacturers on board, asus, gainward etc. I'm afraid the whole thing is typical of the pc industry at present, price-performance always wins over quality. I for one wouldn't mind paying a bit more for a quality product. I think because of this attitude we're left with a market with very few innovators (what ever happened to Matrox, S3, etc); it's why we're stuck with ATI and Nvidia.

Before anyone mentions Hercules, the original company ceased to be many years ago; the current outfit seem just to be a faceless part of Gainward throwing out crappy product.

...........then again maybe I'm just paranoid...........

 

[NE_Corridor]

I especially liked Twitch's post, but let me add something. If you get angry becuase your video card is outdated and obsolete after 3-6 months, then I'm sorry--the problem is not the industry, it's you. You've caught the upgrade fever. You feed on other posters' responses and hypes. You're impressionable. Now, I'm not trying to be mean, but take a good look at what video card you have. Geforce 3? Radeon 8500? Those ae still good cards that will play most any game on today's market without any problems. Heck, you'll still be ok with a Geforce4 MX-440. The point is, you don't need to get wrapped around the axle because you don't have a 9700pro. Don't get bummed because other people are pre-ordering 9800s. Don't get bummed because you don't have the best. You don't need the best. If you allow yourself to get angry because new technology comes out every few months, then you you need to step back and chill.

Call me Caine.

 

[Rubberbband]

Roger that. Imagine if we upgraded the vehicles we drive each time a faste/better model was availible.

The aim of military training is not just to prepare men for battle, but to make them long for it. <A HREF="http://forums.btvillarin.com/index.php?act=ST&f=41&t=327&s" target="_new"><b>MY SYSTEM</b></A>

 

[Twitch]

Your point is excellent too. I have a GeForce 3 Ti500, and despite the fact that it's starting to show its age just a little bit, it still works in everything. Why would I shell out hard-earned cash for a Radeon 9800 PRO?

Because I want one. I want one, but I will NOT preorder one for $399.99 just so I can say I had it first. Beyond that murmer of protest, I really will have no choice but to shell out way more money than I really want to--IF I want to satisfy my greedy urge for a high-end system by the time Doom 3 is released. Now, I know cards will come out in H2 '03 or H1 '04 that will blow my high-end system away. Will I complain?

Well, maybe a little, but I won't be serious about it. Because I know how it works.

I do think if there was a third legitimate competitor, graphics cards would improve even faster. Of course, that would piss SOME people off even more! Hehe!


<-----Insert witty sig line here.

 

[eden]

ATi is now having a lot of nVidia's top suppliers. They have VisionTek WHICH WAS nVidia's TOP brand name, and yes it was reputable as you indicated for nVidia brands. They also have Hercules. They were close to getting MSI. They got Tyan, a renowned multiprocessor mainboard manufacturer. Believe me, they got a lot of known companies and are going for more if possible (MSI?). And since when is quality of any concern?
Don't you know that the majority of the PBA (Powered by ATi, as in the brands other than ATi) cards ARE THE reference cards? In other words, manus only fit them with different HSF IF they desired (catering enthusiasts), and they customize their card outputs and inputs as well as make drivers for it, and give software suites. In other words, the majority of PBA cards are ATi cards, and since most of us would go for ATi's reference drivers on their website, then in other words you are simply paying for the extras of a PBA company at a nice price, and are getting the ATi quality.
Now are you also going to charge on ATi's quality? I hope not, otherwise you'll have a lot coming at you!

I for one wouldn't mind paying a bit more for a quality product.

Forgive me for sounding harsh, but if you are so moronic that you would even buy an FX5600 Ultra, simply because it's quality, then, go read my reply in the official FX5600 review thread here, which is by Spitfire I believe. I have voiced a serious statement that is pretty harsh but IMO, any nVidiot deserves that. So I hope your position on ATi changes, because quality is now nearly as good as nVidia's and the millions are switching, and few are returning cards from ATi. I think you're only acting too insecure if you only think nVidia has the quality tag.

Good luck dude.

EDIT: After looking around, I just remembered, my harsh statement was actually in this thread lol...
--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 03/11/03 10:53 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[alpha_03]

to cleeve......... are you dense, thick, crowed together, stupid? you quoted me as saying something i didnt say. that quote you posted was the quote of another website read the artical. and the purpose of my post wasnt about who is better, but, rather how WE consumers are being riped off, sheesh. i'm no genius but most readers get my point why didnt you. get off the band wagon son and realize whats going on.

(old person by trait)

 

[alpha_03]

lol ne corridor are you a cave man or do you just play games that were made in 1990?

(old person by trait)

 

[Twitch]

If you don't want a Sapphire or 3DConnect board, buy an ATI card. Just try and find an nVidia-brand-name graphics card out there. Aren't any, are there? That's one of the reasons nVidia's 2D quality tends to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. It all depends on the use of quality components--and where are the little places certain manufacturers skimp to save money. ATI has never been accused of using cheap components.

<-----Insert witty sig line here.

 

[NE_Corridor]

Yes, I am a cave man, and no, my games date back to 1991, mister. Jones In The Fast Lane is still one of my favorite games!

Call me Caine.

 

[alpha_03]

to twitch: i am so glad you got the jist of my post im not saying i too dont like the competition. what i am saying however, is that that it is unfair to corner a market (gaming) and then dictate what we as consumers will have to do to realize the true potential of the games released. (monoply) and no i do not have "upgrade fever" gf2 ultra here on a 2500 barton. i remember a time when ati couldnt tie their own shoe laces in the graphics world. and now because of a single chip set every ati owner (prob ex nvidia owner) is ready to kick the can and be happy. if you go to the nvidia site and read the news nvidia is going to present the fx line (except fx ultra) as a cost effective upgrade not a $400.00 temporary graphics eddition to suppliment the next era of ati gpu's, that truely, if truth be known is a copy of nvidia technology. its easy to be king for a day and run on the tail skirts of another but past history has shown that the masses are usally wrong. but then again that just my opinion..............off on a rant.

(old person by trait)

 

[NE_Corridor]

Hey Twitch, I didn't mean to come down hard on you like that. I was running a Geforce3 Ti200 last night and today, I'm running a softmodded 9500, so I kinda know how you feel. As for Doom 3, I don't mind running it with less eye candy--as long as it runs

Call me Caine.

 

[Twitch]

Don't sweat it man. Everything you said was true! Maybe the gist of the whole thing is this: How far can you tolerate falling behind before you can't stand it anymore? Hell, my brother is running an Athlon 850 (yes the SLOT one) with a TNT2, and he loves it! The only games he plays are Motocross Madness 2 and Descent, and it's fine for him. He is totally disinterested in newer games. Says they're too complicated.

So for him, upgrading once every ten years or so would probably be fine. On the other hand, I have an Athlon 1800+ with a GeForce 3 Ti500. For the last eighteen months or so, I have been perfectly content, but the success of the 9700 PRO and the upcoming processors from Intel have piqued my interest. When I'm ready to buy in May, the 9800 PRO will be in full production (theoretically) and that will be the card for me. I will throw down a painful amount of money and be good for the next eighteen months. Then I'll get the itch again.

To me, the point of your post was: If you are an upgrade junky, that's your problem. Spend your money and don't complain. And you're right!


<-----Insert witty sig line here.

 

[Skipper007]

My dad's 64MB Geforce 2 Pro/Athlon 1200 manages to handle just about every game well, except NOLF2 because I insist on running it on medium detail (Geforce 3 recommended). THe system is eighteen months old, cost about $2000 CAD ($1300 US)originally and will be replaced with another machine in two months, so that machine becomes mine. If only it was more reliable. Oh well, I think the part that isn't reliable is one of the ones I wanted to replace anyway, for a several hundred I can pump that rig up to handle anything in the next year.

 

[alpha_03]

yep you got it for the most part, with one exception: it would not be difficult for any graphics co. to implement the stratigy that amd took- scalabilty what i mean is why does any consumer need to replace his/her entire graphics card? what a company could do is to stream line the cards (a.k.a. look at a modern mobo) and allow us consumers to save a few bucks with an up-graded GPU and/or Memory. hmm can anyone say better games due to better coding? this would reduce cost to the consumer and slow down the market a little and let the cpu companies catch up to the graphics co. and show us what they really can do. as well it would allow the graphics card people to really make a quality next gen. product. this is just good business sence. if the pc market continues the way it is the only persons they will be able to cater to are ages 16-25, and well, we know what happens then. thanks for your comments everyone (most anyway) all i wanted to do was open your eyes to whats going on and a possible future. not f/p/s or "how fast" but the issue of quality and consumer fairness. thanx, A03

(old person by trait)

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Alpha, write a Beta of this post.

AMD has nearly reached the end of the 32 bit core (3200+ is just around the corner if the game developers conf. is a preview), but just in time for the Clawhammer and Opteron (formerly Sledgehammer) 64bit procs. AMD also is working with IBM to make the next gen. chips. Now he question of who is 'winning' the war depends on how you look at it, the cheaper $/power of AMD helped them increase their sales and market share this past year; and at who's expense? Intel.
As for ATI, what are you talking about scalability for?
Ati and Nvidia are coming out with similar cores, just chosing different methods to launch them. Ati is using an efficient processor on the value cores, whihc is a smart move to perfect the 0.13 cores. Nvidia bet it all on the 0.13 and they are being handed their hat in the performace ring. The true advance in the last year was not 0.13 process, not DDRII, but 256 bit memory, it seems to have made all the difference and allows an older process to still beat the new 'problematic' process of Nvidia.
Now I think NVIDIA has a marketing and maybe sales winner in the 5200 core, because they can promote cheap DX9, which is a little bit better performer than the 9000/9200 (9100?, no comparison I've read yet). Now that will help Nvidia sales if they market them right.
You obviously like NVIDIA, however the reality is that an imperfect new technology does not beat a perfected older technology, and you learn just as much from the failings of others, as if they were your own, the only difference being YOU didn't spend all the R&D money and a complete production cycle trying to perfect a virtually untested technology on your marquee card, only to receive lackluster results/reviews, and lose some credability in the process.
I think NEITHER ATI nor NVIDIA will really be hurt in the long run, however people like SIS and MATROX are hurtin' a little more, and their future in the gaming market is in question, will the XABRE II bring something to the table, or are SIS and Matrox headed for the fate of Cyrix?

ANYWHOO, while you might derride the FPS leader, it is also the QUALITY leader, so people are rightly jumping ship.
The main thing is to buy the BEST you can, who cares about being 'UNLOYAL' unless you own their stocks then what have they done for YOU lately? Oh wait that's right MATROX sent me a gold-plated monitor cable, re-stocked my fridge, and contributed to my RRSP. :tongue: Simple buy, the best for you money, that runs the stuff you wanna run now and in the future. The quick turn-over of technology and card leaders/winners is GREAT. Nothig is better for the consumer, it only hurts people who try to use their 3dMark scores as some sort of stamp of superiority. Give me newest/fastest/best, not simply what ONE maker feels I need.
I already have one 800lb deaf Gorilla in the OS market, I don't need one in the Graphics card market.

PS I'm still waiting for a card that lets me play Tetris at 1600x1200x128bit with 8x AA 8X AF at 1000+FPS MMmmmm, It looks like a Lava Lamp DUDE!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK