READ THIS -ALL THE HYPE(2)

alpha_03

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ok so now that i have your attention: i must say i am quite impressed by some of you and the ideas you presented. and quite enjoyed the conversation. since the previous thread was getting quite long i decided to make a "part 2". it gets quite difficult to keep track of what each reader/writer is presenting when threads get so long. i believe greatgrapeape suggested it as well. (to his/her credit)
let me begin by saying the entire premise for my initial post was to gather the ideas and philosophy of you readers. no i did not intend for it to become word wars about who makes the best graphics card, rather to gain insight of currant feelings and facts about the graphics industry. it does perplex me to still see (from the previous post i've read) how many readers do not seem to get the revelant points of this topic. i still believe that it is wrong to create a graphis card that will be replaced by another card in 3 to 6mos because of game(s) particular requirement(s). why? might you ask. because it is the games we play that drive the 3d graphics card industry, not as one reader stated the need for the best and/or the fastest video card. i personally still use my trusty gf2 ultra and i must say it plays most, not all, games rather well. my statements were directed more to questioning the ethics of game makers and video card producers (their relationship) rather than who is better, ati or nvidia. truth be known both companies (now a days) make good products, although i feel, far to costly. so let me present my idea(s) in another way. it is my understanding that games drive the video card market and there by the technology that is required to run said games.(for the most part). using this perspective, as my premise for the initial instance of the artical and the basis of this next thread.

1. games are very expensive (initially)
2. video cards of mid to good quality are very expensive.
3. game designers and their relationship with graphic card manufactuer'. (ethics vs the consumer and cost)
4. longivity- (i must repeat this for lack of a better way to express it)
5. what are possible solutions?

in my defence when i stated the issue of "nvidia getting a bad rap" my reason for a defensive posture was not so much in defense of nvidia, rather an artical that THG reported about nvidias accuation of tweeked drivers used by ati.(directx9) and 3d mark 2003. finally, not to single anyone out, but to my knowledge nvidia was the fist graphs card company to introduce the gpu and ddr for consumer use in graphics cards, if i am wrong then i will capitulate. well, on to your ideas. thanx for letting me rant.


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cefoskey

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Video cards and PCs, like every other consumer product, are sold to make money. Thats the bottom line. There is no reason for companies to rely on old technology to save the consumer $. Innovation is a constant ongoing process (moores law) so we really cant just temporarily cease making new products so everyone can stop and smell the roses. Honestly, as long as there are people out there willing to pay $400 for a video card, we are still going to see the benchmark wars and outdated technology every 6 months. Its something we are going to have to live with. I work at Best Buy and deal with hoardes of computer illiterate every day. You would not believe how fast the FX presell boxed flew off the shelves. People just want what the ads say is the best, and if they shell out the cash it keeps the prices up. I NEVER buy a bleeding edge product, im perfectly happy with my R8500. Its not wrong to produce the new cards, if you think they are too expensive, then dont buy them! Unfortunately there will always be the hasty unintelligent masses to propagate the "new card march."

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Twitch

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My original point from the other thread still applies. There is absolutley no incentive for graphics card manufacturers to do as you propose. There would be no upside to doing it unless they raised prices to never-before seen levels. It would be bad business for the companies and the consumers.

It seems like you're asking these companies to voluntarily reduce their revenues on behalf of consumers--and to slow down advances in technology so that graphics cards stay current longer. Your way would slow progress and raise prices.

You've already said your GeForce2 Ultra is great for you. Did you know that for a mere $129, you can substantially upgrade your Ultra? Is that unreasonable? Only if you insist on having the latest-and-greatest do you have to spend $400.

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eden

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Truth be told Twitch, I feel that even the R9800PRO is not enough.
THG's rather GRIM results in the benchmarks are kind of letting me down a lot as even older games (6-12 months old) won't run at a solid 60FPS+ with minimum FPS of 50-60.
I feel like if games that are SUPPOSEDLY utilizing the features of these cards are actually dragging the cards down to 40FPS, then it's not worth it. You can crown a card for performing finally above 25 FPS in a game (suppose it's the world's most unoptimized game... oh heck, let's use Morrowind!), but that game is still not playable at "smooth" levels. To me, in FPS games, 30 FPS is not good enough, I still feel a drag when I move the mouse around. At 60FPS, I feel extreme smoothness. And at 90FPS+, I feel power! :smile:
Perhaps in some games, 30FPS display on the monitor is the same thing as 60, I don't deny it, but I wonder why. Texture display rate? VSync?

Anyways, my main point is just that, I feel so down when seeing the results on THG. I feel like the R9700PRO, that was supposed to be running Doom III at the best possible rates, would mean that it is able to REALLY take the blow from many games in the future, knowing that Doom III IS the next level of benchmarking, it is the new bar to raise, but... now I do understand it well, games are really not optimized.
If Doom III was the game that pushed graphics to their maximum, and had the most advanced engine, and stayed that way for over a year, and the R9700PRO could stand extreme battle conditions in the game, AND all companies also optimized their games to the utter maximum like with Carmack's Doom III, then technically, from now to over a year, all games would run silky smooth on the R9700PRO, letting little use for the R9800PRO other than AA and Aniso.

Do you see where I am going and why I feel grim on the current cards?

--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden. :smile:
 

Twitch

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Eden: If I understand correctly, you are saying current graphics technology would be sufficient if game developers would optimize their code for it?

Do I take it that you lay the blame for low minimum FPS primarily at the feet of developers?

I have read that Doom 3 is highly-optimized--which is good, of course, since we will surely see more titles based on id's Doom 3 engine. Carmack understands, but then again, Carmack actually GETS it. He's one of us, an enthusiast, whereas I think a lot of the game developers out there are corporate slaves, developing games under timelines and duress. Carmack has the luxury of doing things his own way.

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alpha_03

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well guys you have finally touched on what my point has been all along. eden makes very valueable point with the statement concerning frame rate vs performance. twitch, i have for the most part agreed with until now. originally i set the premise of this topic in 5 steps. steps i feel concern the main stream public (pc enthausist). you went a bit off topic but that is ok as it adds a flip side to the conversation. but realize this, and this is one area i know to be fact, its not graphics cards to be the real issue its coding. this is what ive been trying to get accross all along. efficent coding does more for any app than a minor speed increase will ever do. hence the 5 steps of this topic. it is my opinion we the consumer are being riped off and that is what makes me mad not $400.00 dollar graphics card prices.

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alpha_03

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no im sorry twitch your a bit mistaken on the "125 bucks" from what i have tested using 3d 2001 and 02. code creatures and gl excess among a few others, the scaling of these new "super vid cards" doesnt excite me except for the 9700 pro by ati. when using the same set of stats. that others use with comparitable machines, save the graphics card. according to my results im right in the running and usally better than all gf3's and the lower end of the gf 4 crowd. explain this to me? then maybe ill buy a new grahics card. dont beleive me? test your system using 3dmark and ill do the same, then we'll compare results.

(old person by trait)
 
Ok, this time around I'll TRY to be brief;

1) Expensive compared to what? I saw Daredevil today for about $9 US I can buy the latest games for about $40 US. Now compare the time spent $9/2hrs vs $40/20+hrs (Morrowind 100+hrs) Now that's $4.5/hr vs $2/hr. I also spent about $7 to go see the Autoshow today. So it's all relative, yeah it's just a CD with code, but we usually get alot out of them.
2) A Mid-level video card is cheaper than a game console.
3) This is too vague. It is no different than most between hardware and software makers (Hollywood & Home Theater makers)
4) There is 'relative longevity in the graphics market as long as it's not simply a my member is bigger than yours contest. Most games would still play on my old RageFuryPro 32mb, whereas they would not play on the PII-300 it was ported to, especially at the original 96 mb of pc100 (32mb at purchase).
5) Don't feel you have to play the latest games or buy the latest cards. Do you have an HDTV? I do. Do you have Satellite? I do. Do you own a DVD? ADSL? ... No one forces me to get these things I simply want them, because they give me the BEST of what I look for.
What you seem to want is for the games to run forever on a basic card (which one? an 8mb chip? 32mb DX7 good enough? 64mb of DX8.1? Wha I would prefer is for the BEST technology to be out there as soon as they can get it to me. And ditto for the games/programmers. I don't want to wait for the MASSES to finally get their assets in gear and buy a good card so that I can have cinema quality gaming. The masses are idiots and I don't want to wait for their Minesweeping tastes to evolve.
Don't feel that YOU need to keep up with ME. I'm not trying to said my card is bette than yours. In fact yours may indeed be better than mine from what your write. However it plays the GAMES I want to play now. However I'm going to get an R9600 (for reasons I have already stated in here) so I can play the next titles I want D]|[ being the most important, and then I will also be able to jack up all the settings while I play Tribunal, and even for my old favs.
However without the push for DX9, and for cinema quality games, you would not see a title like D]|[ before 2006, and that pushes the card makers, or else we would all still be on R8500s & GF3s or less, and that's NOT a good thing.
Don't feel you need to keep up with the joneses, but let us early eager adopters spend our money on the BEST now, and keep it coming.

(A little longer than I wanted)

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
 

Twitch

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$129 can get you a Ti4200-64. You're trying to tell me that's not an upgrade from your GeForce2 Ultra? Gimme a break! Unless you're an overclocking FIEND, there is no way your GeForce 2 Ultra is comparable to even a GeForce3 Ti500. And the GeForceTi4200 is a pretty sizeable improvement over your Ultra.

And if it ISN'T a substantial upgrade in your mind, then what the heck are you complaining about? Having to upgrade your graphics card every three years isn't that bad.


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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Twitch on 03/13/03 02:03 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
First of all, for a person like yourself, 3dmark is useless, EITHER version 01/03. Compare GAME benchmarks.
As for you disagreeing with twitch's statement about $125 bucks making a big difference, then you obviously haven't tried hard to see what $125-150 gets you. More card than ANY game out there.... UNTIL you turn on extras, which are options. The 8500 or GF3ti should be more than good. Even the 9100 (less than $100) would be more than adequate for ACTUAL game play for the BASIC user, which is where you seem to be focusing your attention.
Anywhoo, I just don't see where you really expect to go with the thread. I think your question #5 should really be answered by you, and definitely NOT in the 'just make them cheaper or last longer' way.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
 

Twitch

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Given the contradictions in his train of thought, I really don't even know what his point is. Are graphics advancing too fast? Not fast enough? Does he believe in "affirmative action" in the GPU industry so no one has faster GPUs?

On the other thread, he seemed to be intimating that graphics companies should build graphics mainboards and then just sell you GPU's therafter. Well, I guess the memory on those mainboards would then be scalable too (?), since many of the advancements in 3D have come when memory bandwidth has been improved. But then, I don't see how it would end up being any cheaper? And even if it was slightly cheaper, there is no way the mainboards would scale with the GPU. Your mainboard would be outdated in eighteen months and kill the performance of newer GPUs.

Alpha: You seem to be saying we don't really NEED all the performance and features from newer cards--that the problem is with game developers. SO WHAT IS IT? Do you just hate the 3D graphics/games industry in general? Are you tired of buying a graphics card and seeing it replaced with something faster six months later? If that's the case, why do you maintain your GF2-Ultra is as fast as you need? What is your POINT man?

I'm just not real sure where you're going with this.

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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Twitch on 03/13/03 02:43 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
Funny you switched from he... to you... mid post and almost offended me, I went to grab a tissue... :frown: But I got your train of thought I'm used to riding Amtrack. :tongue:

However, I completely agree. In order to have ONE board that's future proof it would need to support ungodley memory traces [1024-bit] ? and a huge number of pin-outs to allow for future 'in-chip' features to be powered and addressed.
I agree I still don't really get the thread anymore. The more I read the more confused I get. And I don't think my own posts helped either. :eek:

Anywhoo must rest tired brain. First Car-show now this....

MY BRAIN HURTS! - Gumby man from Monty Python

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK