The Utility of Blood Doll

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

OK, color me crazy, but I don't tend to use this card very much. If it
would facilitate this discussion, I refer you to a deck I recently
worked on in the Titled Nosferatu Combat thread so you can see what I
tend to do with my Master phases instead of Blood Dolls. But it's not
just with that Vote/Combat deck (which relied on a crypt full of
homogeneous vampires and Con Boon for it's pool gain) but in general I
almost never reach for the card.

Am I missing something here? When I read other people's decklists I see
blood doll finding its way into almost every deck. What do you guys
think of blood doll, is it that good, or just a staple card that people
have to depend on too heavily?
23 answers Last reply
More about utility blood doll
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    > What do you guys
    > think of blood doll, is it that good

    Yes.

    (Now, to be fair, BD isn't always the best way to gain pool. But it is
    certainly the easiest and flexible.

    Also doubles as a "keep your rockstar from a mandatory hunt" card, which
    is useful in and of itself, which no other poolgain does.)

    --Colin McGuigan
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Here are the decks I use right now and the pool gain tactics:
    Weenie Dominate: It uses no pool gain tactics, it just attacks
    Venture Arika Vote & Bloat: Uses Minion Taps and Voter Cap, and votes
    for huge gains
    Gangrel Dominate w/Stanistlava: Uses Minion Taps into Golcondas
    Nosferatu Titled Combat: Uses Con Boons and Anathemas

    None of these decks use a single blood doll but most have mutliple
    copies of wake. I have to rate wake as much more powerful than BD. Now
    I do have decks with BD in them, but the strange thing is that those
    are decks that don't perform as strongly as those I've listed above.
    It's a card I tend to use when I lack a better pool management vehicle.
    Which is to suggests to me that a stronger deck should have better pool
    management than to rely on BD. To me, its what you throw in when you
    don't have anything better, and that suggests a mediocre card to me-
    not one that needs fixing.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:

    > Am I missing something here?

    Possibly.

    > When I read other people's decklists I see
    > blood doll finding its way into almost every deck. What do you guys
    > think of blood doll, is it that good, or just a staple card that people
    > have to depend on too heavily?

    It is one of the best cards in the game. And generally the closest to a
    "goes in *every* deck" card that this game has. Yeah, there are always going
    to be fringe decks that, like, use lots of Minion Taps for bloat and are
    usually better off without Blood Dolls, and the occasional crazy horde deck
    that is better off with, like, Tributes, but even in decks like this, a
    Blood Doll or two might be valid anyway.

    Blood Doll is permanent, which is huge. It gives you pool, which is huge. It
    allows you to give blood back to your vampires, which is huge. In the short
    run, a Blood Doll makes your vampires cheaper. In the long run, Blood Doll
    gains you a lot of pool. It allows you to put a blood on a vampire that your
    prey was not expectng on acting that turn. It makes it easier to rescue
    vampires from Torpor. It really is one of the best cards in the game, and if
    you aren't using them in most decks, it is likely that you are not seeing
    how useful they are.

    Again, yeah, one could argue for some decks not using Blood Dolls. And there
    are reasonable justifications for doing so. But by default, including 3-4
    Blood Dolls in pretty much any deck is usually going to make it better all
    around--generally speaking, if you are building a deck, start by putting in,
    like, 3 or 4 Blood Dolls, and then only take them out if you can come up
    with a good reason for it.

    I woudn't automatically include, like, 8 in every deck or anything, but
    again, 3 or 4 should liekly go in most decks unless youhave a good reason
    not to include them.

    There are very few other cards in the game that fit this bill (the only one
    that is close is Wake, but that one is far more debateable in decks that
    have no intercept or reactions in them, and those are more decks than one
    would think). But Blood Doll is likely the top contender. And as a result,
    probably too good. But it is probably too late to fix that now.


    Peter D Bakija
    pdb6@lightlink.com
    http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

    "How does this end?"
    "In fire."
    Emperor Turhan and Kosh
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    remember back in the day before wakes replaced during your next draw
    phase? then wakes were ubiquitous. they are still pretty prevalent now,
    but the 'next draw phase' clause really gave forced awakenings a chance
    to stand on their own, especially for intercept decks. it was a good change.

    blood doll... i don't even know if there is a possible fix for it, or
    whether it really needs one. though it's a crutch that's hard to break.
    if someone learned to play well without one i'd encourage that; teaches
    more about how to manage our precious 30 pool than relying on lazier
    bloat tactics. might make one a better player. but blood doll is as
    solid a card as they come. people should try it, but remember, the
    temptation to rely on it is strong.

    Peter D Bakija wrote:
    > There are very few other cards in the game that fit this bill (the only one
    > that is close is Wake, but that one is far more debateable in decks that
    > have no intercept or reactions in them, and those are more decks than one
    > would think). But Blood Doll is likely the top contender. And as a result,
    > probably too good. But it is probably too late to fix that now.
    >
    >
    > Peter D Bakija
    > pdb6@lightlink.com
    > http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
    >
    > "How does this end?"
    > "In fire."
    > Emperor Turhan and Kosh
    >
    >
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On 28 Mar 2005 13:44:29 -0800, Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > OK, color me crazy, but I don't tend to use this card very much. If it
    > would facilitate this discussion, I refer you to a deck I recently
    > worked on in the Titled Nosferatu Combat thread so you can see what I
    > tend to do with my Master phases instead of Blood Dolls. But it's not
    > just with that Vote/Combat deck (which relied on a crypt full of
    > homogeneous vampires and Con Boon for it's pool gain) but in general I
    > almost never reach for the card.
    >
    > Am I missing something here? When I read other people's decklists I see
    > blood doll finding its way into almost every deck. What do you guys
    > think of blood doll, is it that good, or just a staple card that people
    > have to depend on too heavily?

    Blood Dolls are IMHO popular on two principles: #1 is that pool is usually
    more important than blood, and #2 is that a versatile and consistent
    permanent effect can do a lot to grease your deck.

    I mean, you can get 5+ blood with a transient blood converter like Tribute
    or Minion Tap. With Blood Doll, you need 5+ rounds for that. However, it
    can double as a Gird Minions effect when needed, and since you ultimately
    need your minions to do your bidding, keeping them alive and active may
    be worth a little pool infusion (especially if you also committed
    additional resources to them).

    That said, I think that Blood Dolls are best for more toolboxy and mid-cap
    decks. In an aggressive stealth bleeder I would prefer card cycling cards
    over Dolls any day. I consider Blood Doll to be a good but somewhat
    overrated card, whose popularity has much to do with the uncertainty of
    players and games.

    --
    Bye,

    Daneel
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    >Here are the decks I use right now and the pool gain tactics:
    >Weenie Dominate: It uses no pool gain tactics, it just attacks

    Reasonable. That kind of deck doesn't need pool gain at all. Although a
    few Blood Dolls woiuld still be useful for feeding back to make that
    necessary lunge after you have run out of blood due to Governs,
    Conditionings, and Deflections.

    >Venture Arika Vote & Bloat: Uses Minion Taps and Voter Cap, and votes
    >for huge gains

    Also reasonable. But still, a single Blood Doll instead of one of the
    Taps is going to be useful for long term gain and fueling a minion in a
    pinch.

    >Gangrel Dominate w/Stanistlava: Uses Minion Taps into Golcondas

    Reasonable. But again, a Blood Doll isn't going to hurt.

    >Nosferatu Titled Combat: Uses Con Boons and Anathemas

    I'd certainly put a few BD in there, specifically to feed back if
    necessary.

    See, Blood Doll is always useful to play. It gains you pool early. It
    makes your vampires cheaper. Late in the game, it either gains you pool
    or allows you to push back for a necessary lunge.

    >None of these decks use a single blood doll but most have mutliple
    >copies of wake.

    If you have intercept and/or reaction cards (read: bleed bounce), then
    Wake is going to be a no brainer. But if you don't have either, which
    is a lot of decks, Wake is unecessary.

    >Which is to suggests to me that a stronger deck should have better
    pool
    >management than to rely on BD. To me, its what you throw in when you
    >don't have anything better, and that suggests a mediocre card to me-
    >not one that needs fixing.

    I don't know what to tell you. Blood Doll is, far and away, one of the
    strongest, most utilitarian cards in the set. And always has been.
    Sure--sometimes Minion Tap is preferable. Sometimes a Tribute is
    preferable. But in most cases, Blood Doll is simply a good card to have
    in hand or in play, and it is pretty much always worth using.


    -Peter
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Fabio wrote:
    > don't think the Tournament Winning Deck archive supports this, but
    >I'm too busy now to check. Anyone?

    As always, using the TWD Archive as proof of anything is always
    suspect, but as these are successful decks, it might say something.

    Of the 100 most recent decks in the TWDA, 73 use Blood Doll (i.e. 73%
    of them :-). The average seems to be about 5 per deck. Of the 23 decks
    that don't use Blood Doll in the most recent 100, the vast bulk of them
    are huge vampire decks that use a lot of Minion Taps. A few are weenie
    horde decks that use Tributes. One or two of them are weirdo decks that
    don't use Blood Doll, Minion Tap, or Tribute--and those I think were
    speed kill decks that didn't have any pool gain at all.

    What does this say? That people like Blood Doll, it is a popular card,
    and shows up a lot in tournament winning decks. But then I suspect that
    it shows up a lot in most decks.

    -Peter
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "What does this say? That people like Blood Doll, it is a popular card,
    and shows up a lot in tournament winning decks. But then I suspect that
    it shows up a lot in most decks."

    That's my point, and why I brought up the topic. It seems to me that,
    if one were playing a Camarilla Vote deck, then Minion Tap/Parity
    Shift/Voter Cap are giving you all the pool/blood you need. At that
    point, I see adding more blood management cards as counter productive
    as you should add some cards that help you get the vote off/etc.

    It seems to me that in a fair number of situations, people would be
    better of using a card more custom tailored to that decks strategies
    and strengths of that particular decks goal.

    Now, with an Anarch deck say, BD seems to be the way to go, but that's
    just because I don't see a lot of other strong blood management cards
    for Anarchs that would beat BD. And, to me, it suggests (and my
    experiences so far support this) that the Anarch deck is a weaker
    choice to play than say the Vote deck because the vote deck has
    multiple ways to bloat that all are more efficient than Blood Doll.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On 28 Mar 2005 19:59:49 -0800, "Preston" <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    >Here are the decks I use right now and the pool gain tactics:
    >Weenie Dominate: It uses no pool gain tactics, it just attacks
    >Venture Arika Vote & Bloat: Uses Minion Taps and Voter Cap, and votes
    >for huge gains
    >Gangrel Dominate w/Stanistlava: Uses Minion Taps into Golcondas
    >Nosferatu Titled Combat: Uses Con Boons and Anathemas
    >
    >None of these decks use a single blood doll but most have mutliple
    >copies of wake. I have to rate wake as much more powerful than BD. Now
    >I do have decks with BD in them, but the strange thing is that those
    >are decks that don't perform as strongly as those I've listed above.
    >It's a card I tend to use when I lack a better pool management vehicle.

    I guess it depends largely on playstyle.
    I wouldn't say "lack of a *better* pool management vehicle", but lack
    of steady source of big amounts of incoming pool. All decks you've
    mentioned could potentially live out of Blood Dolls for good reasons,
    but they seem to be very aggressive decks.
    It also depends on the metagame. In here I wouldn't dare to play only
    decks based on votes to gain pool (be it Con Boon or Minion
    Tap/Voter). These are high profile, meaning they depend largely in
    being able to call and pass votes, which is not guaranteed in a
    metagame where you often see efficient rush and intercept decks. If
    your big cap bites the dust early or you can't achieve vote lock, you
    won't gain pool. Put a Blood Doll in a weenie or midcapt crypt-filler
    and you at least can generate some steady incoming pool.
    At the moment, I have decks with Dolls, one with Dolls and Tribute to
    the Master, and one with Minion Tap/Voter Cap only. All poolgain
    choices were made based on how the deck is supposed to go. I can say
    for sure that the Minion Tap/Voter Cap one is the most threatening and
    tends to attract the harshest response from other players - and the
    main votes are Hierophant and Free States Rant, not Kines, Parity
    Shifts etc.


    >Which is to suggests to me that a stronger deck should have better pool
    >management than to rely on BD.

    I don't think the Tournament Winning Deck archive supports this, but
    I'm too busy now to check. Anyone?

    I fail to see why "stronger" decks *should* have "better" pool
    management. "Better" pool management means more setup - be emptying
    (an therefore burning) an Anathema, using Minion Taps and passing
    votes etc. More setup doesn't necesseraly means better decks.
    So I think you're overrating other poolgain strategies as much as some
    overrate Blood Dolls.


    To me, its what you throw in when you
    >don't have anything better, and that suggests a mediocre card to me-
    >not one that needs fixing.

    Again, I see this as a matter of playstyle. Blood Doll is certainly
    not attractive when one's used to aggressive play - it requires
    patience and caution to pay off. It's also non-threatening - if I see
    a cross-table player with a vote deck playing Minion Tap/Voter Cap for
    the second time and I'm with a rush deck, I'll go rush him instead of
    my prey. Vote decks with too much pool means more voters, more pool in
    the long rung, more minions to bleed, more everything. If no one has
    reliable intercept, it means a sure GW. So he must be contained.

    Blood Dolls don't attract that sort of attention, and bring you pool
    to keep you alive the same, as long as you play the attrition game.
    That's why people use them that often.

    best,

    Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
    V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
    Giovanni Newsletter Editor
    -----------------------------------------------------
    V for Vendetta on the big screen!
    http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    > None of these decks use a single blood doll but most have mutliple
    > copies of wake. I have to rate wake as much more powerful than BD. Now
    > I do have decks with BD in them, but the strange thing is that those
    > are decks that don't perform as strongly as those I've listed above.
    > It's a card I tend to use when I lack a better pool management vehicle.
    > Which is to suggests to me that a stronger deck should have better pool
    > management than to rely on BD. To me, its what you throw in when you
    > don't have anything better, and that suggests a mediocre card to me-
    > not one that needs fixing.

    Make an intercept deck that doesn't use blood dolls.

    Make a non-vote deck without Golconda that doesn't use blood dolls.

    Make a Setite deck that doesn't use blood dolls.

    Make an anarch deck that doesn't use blood dolls.

    Etc.

    --Colin McGuigan
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Jeroen wrote:
    >you mean you don't count superior Govern and/or Scouting Mission as a
    pool
    >gain tactic?

    ???

    No, I mean:

    Although a few Blood Dolls would still be useful for feeding back to
    make that
    necessary lunge after you have run out of blood due to Governs,
    Conditionings, and Deflections.

    Not quite sure what you are talking about.

    -Peter
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    >That's my point, and why I brought up the topic. It seems to me that,
    >if one were playing a Camarilla Vote deck, then Minion Tap/Parity
    >Shift/Voter Cap are giving you all the pool/blood you need.

    Sure. If you are playing a huge vampire Minion Tap deck, that is
    probably going to give you all the pool you need. Which explains most
    of the other 23% of the decks in the sample selected. But even then, a
    couple Blood Dolls are still going to be useful, as they gain you pool
    early and let you put blood back when needed. And in the case of Parity
    Shift, they halp you tailor your pool level to facilitate the Party
    Shift itself.

    >It seems to me that in a fair number of situations, people would be
    >better of using a card more custom tailored to that decks strategies
    >and strengths of that particular decks goal.

    As one of the main goals of most decks is "gain more pool so I don't
    get ousted so quickly", and Blood Doll is one of the best ways to do
    this, it pretty much fits in most decks.

    I mean, like, if you are finding your decks successful without Blood
    Dolls, clearly, you are doing something right. But that seems to be an
    outlier, in terms of the experience of most other folks.

    Again, Blood Doll isn't, like, gonna automatically make you win just by
    putting some in your deck. But it is one of the best cards in the game,
    so it makes sense that it shows up as often as it does.

    -Peter
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Colin McGuigan wrote:

    > Make an intercept deck that doesn't use blood dolls.

    If any archetype can survive under a "spend 15 and defend the rest"
    paradigm, I'd guess this one can. Less radically, I could run big
    minions, lots of untap, serious combat, and Taste. In that case I might
    decide to go with Minion Tap to recoup the initial pool outlay quickly.

    > Make a non-vote deck without Golconda that doesn't use blood dolls.

    Hey, this reminds me..... what if you just use 1 or 2 blood dolls? Does
    that count as "using Blood Dolls", since it gets kind of prayerish at
    that point? Anyway, I've built tons of these.

    > Make a Setite deck that doesn't use blood dolls.

    What makes Setite decks special?

    > Make an anarch deck that doesn't use blood dolls.

    Ditto. The "ideal" anarch deck is a bunch of 4 caps with 3 disciplines
    at inferior, any two of which overlap on any given minion. That's a
    weenie deck (albeit just barely). And most Anarch cards are free. And
    I can get blood back on my guys with Salons along with some pool. Maybe
    I tribute, or just rely on not spending much and defending the rest?

    Not knocking the power of Blood Doll, but I don't think any of the decks
    you listed require their use more than any other deck.

    --

    David Cherryholmes
    david.cherryholmes@gmail.com

    "OK. So be it. It's not my view, but whatever makes you
    happy, right? I'm all about making you happy, Dave. :-)"

    -- LSJ, V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    David Cherryholmes wrote:
    > If any archetype can survive under a "spend 15 and defend the rest"
    > paradigm, I'd guess this one can. Less radically, I could run big
    > minions, lots of untap, serious combat, and Taste. In that case I might
    > decide to go with Minion Tap to recoup the initial pool outlay quickly.

    You might, but it'd be really risky. Risks running into equal or
    greater combat, risks running not being able to get into combat, risks
    running into combat but not doing any damage (dodge/prevent/S:CE). All
    equal no poolgain if you depend on taste.

    > Hey, this reminds me..... what if you just use 1 or 2 blood dolls? Does
    > that count as "using Blood Dolls", since it gets kind of prayerish at
    > that point? Anyway, I've built tons of these.

    I think by definition if you use 1 blood doll, you've used blood dolls,
    but better ask LSJ to be sure. =P

    > What makes Setite decks special?

    They tend to be midcap, lack combat (_tend_ to), and lack defense.
    Also, Hesha.

    > Ditto. The "ideal" anarch deck is a bunch of 4 caps with 3 disciplines
    > at inferior, any two of which overlap on any given minion. That's a
    > weenie deck (albeit just barely). And most Anarch cards are free. And
    > I can get blood back on my guys with Salons along with some pool. Maybe
    > I tribute, or just rely on not spending much and defending the rest?

    Arguably, the ideal anarch deck includes 5 caps for Baron/firebrand
    goodness. Or maybe that's just Chicago's metagame.

    As for anarch cards being free: so? If the blood doll was there to
    replace blood, it wouldn't be pool gain.

    Sure, you can tribute, but it's very often not your desire to take one
    blood from everyone. And a permanent blood doll will usually give more
    pool over the course of the game anyway.

    --Colin McGuigan
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    > you mean you don't count superior Govern and/or Scouting Mission as a
    > pool gain tactic?

    David clearly thinks it doesn't from our not-loss and pool-not-gain
    discussion on IRC the other day. <ducks>

    By the way, for the rest of you, the conclusoin of that conversation was
    that the crypt machine is the best deck ever.

    Ankur
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Colin McGuigan wrote:

    > You might, but it'd be really risky. Risks running into equal or
    > greater combat, risks running not being able to get into combat, risks
    > running into combat but not doing any damage (dodge/prevent/S:CE). All
    > equal no poolgain if you depend on taste.

    All true, but you build your deck to handle those things. Like, say,
    Anatole disguises out an Assault Rifle, gets Blessing of Chaos, and
    starts blocking anything that twitches. Not unbeatable, surely, but not
    a bad plan.

    > I think by definition if you use 1 blood doll, you've used blood dolls,
    > but better ask LSJ to be sure. =P

    OK, just checking. I thought maybe there'd be some "less than 4"
    loophole I could squeeze through.


    > They tend to be midcap, lack combat (_tend_ to), and lack defense. Also,
    > Hesha.

    They also have Khobar Towers. I've made Setite decks in the past where
    the main goal was to flip them out, use them dry, then feed them back to
    your pool. Meanwhile, you are working on bringing the replacement out.
    Yeah yeah, I'm aware of when the Towers will and won't work. Any
    strategy you care to propose can be foiled somehow. I found it worked
    about as well as anything does.

    > Arguably, the ideal anarch deck includes 5 caps for Baron/firebrand
    > goodness. Or maybe that's just Chicago's metagame.

    Good point.

    > As for anarch cards being free: so? If the blood doll was there to
    > replace blood, it wouldn't be pool gain.

    As others have pointed out, pool gain is half the equation. So spending
    blood matters.

    > Sure, you can tribute, but it's very often not your desire to take one
    > blood from everyone. And a permanent blood doll will usually give more
    > pool over the course of the game anyway.

    But when you've got two Governs breathing down your neck next turn,
    sometimes gaining 1 or 2 is bad, too. These tit-for-tats can go on
    endlessly.

    --

    David Cherryholmes
    david.cherryholmes@gmail.com

    "OK. So be it. It's not my view, but whatever makes you
    happy, right? I'm all about making you happy, Dave. :-)"

    -- LSJ, V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Ankur Gupta wrote:

    > By the way, for the rest of you, the conclusoin of that conversation was
    > that the crypt machine is the best deck ever.

    I didn't agree to that. Pure Kindred Spirits bleed is the best deck in
    the game, an account of KS being designed by crackheads. But the crypt
    machine is up there.

    --

    David Cherryholmes
    david.cherryholmes@gmail.com

    "OK. So be it. It's not my view, but whatever makes you
    happy, right? I'm all about making you happy, Dave. :-)"

    -- LSJ, V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    >> By the way, for the rest of you, the conclusoin of that conversation
    >> was that the crypt machine is the best deck ever.
    >
    > I didn't agree to that. Pure Kindred Spirits bleed is the best deck in
    > the game, an account of KS being designed by crackheads. But the crypt
    > machine is up there.

    Oh, I meant that it was the "best deck ever" assuming the model of
    not-loss and pool-not-gain, for which I can think of no better example.
    Certainly, one can certainly imagine KS saying to Govern: "My schwartz is
    larger than yours." And it wouldn't necessarily be wrong either.

    Ankur
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On 29 Mar 2005 07:49:36 -0800, "Preston" <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    >"What does this say? That people like Blood Doll, it is a popular card,
    >and shows up a lot in tournament winning decks. But then I suspect that
    >it shows up a lot in most decks."
    >
    >That's my point, and why I brought up the topic. It seems to me that,
    >if one were playing a Camarilla Vote deck, then Minion Tap/Parity
    >Shift/Voter Cap are giving you all the pool/blood you need. At that
    >point, I see adding more blood management cards as counter productive
    >as you should add some cards that help you get the vote off/etc.
    >It seems to me that in a fair number of situations, people would be
    >better of using a card more custom tailored to that decks strategies
    >and strengths of that particular decks goal.

    This is another thing entirely, I imagine.

    Nobody questioned the fact that Minion Tap is a better poolgain
    strategy for vote-y decks and that one should focus his master slots
    to guarantee the passing of votes and such. I recall Peter even saying
    that including 1 or 2 extra Dolls in this kind of deck wouldn't hurt -
    not that it is absolutely necessary.

    But again, remember that "Camarilla vote deck" is one type of deck
    among another 1 million others you can build in this game. The point
    is that the poolgain strategy that *generally* works (note the
    emphasis on *generally*) for most decks is the use of Blood Dolls. Of
    course this include a bunch of decks that have no other choice, but
    not all of them work the same. I recall someone on WW's foruns noting
    that a deck with plenty of cards that cost blood and have no easy way
    to refill its vampires will obviously have no other option than Dolls.
    So maybe there are too many factors to explain why the card is so
    popular; the end result of the strategy is just one factor among many
    others.

    About Anarchs, this discussion made me think how successfull at
    poolgain would be a Tribute/Anarch Salon module (I guess Eric Simon
    pointed it out), so I think I'll build something along these lines to
    see how it goes. Of course Firebrand wouldn't hurt too...

    best,

    Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
    V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
    Giovanni Newsletter Editor
    -----------------------------------------------------
    V for Vendetta on the big screen!
    http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    <pdb6@lightlink.com> schreef in bericht
    news:1112109086.669188.305890@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > Preston wrote:
    >>Here are the decks I use right now and the pool gain tactics:
    >>Weenie Dominate: It uses no pool gain tactics, it just attacks
    >
    > Reasonable. That kind of deck doesn't need pool gain at all. Although a
    > few Blood Dolls woiuld still be useful for feeding back to make that
    > necessary lunge after you have run out of blood due to Governs,
    > Conditionings, and Deflections.
    >
    you mean you don't count superior Govern and/or Scouting Mission as a pool
    gain tactic?
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On 29 Mar 2005 07:49:36 -0800, Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > That's my point, and why I brought up the topic. It seems to me that,
    > if one were playing a Camarilla Vote deck, then Minion Tap/Parity
    > Shift/Voter Cap are giving you all the pool/blood you need. At that
    > point, I see adding more blood management cards as counter productive
    > as you should add some cards that help you get the vote off/etc.

    Well, the reason I used Blood Dolls in my last Princes vote deck is the
    fact that with Blood Doll you can quickly deposit blood onto your
    vampires to get into Parity Shift range. Having, say, 3 Dolls out there
    means that you can modify your pool by +/-3 each master phase for an
    earlier investment of 3 MPAs. Plus whatever you might decide to spend
    on during your Master Phase.

    --
    Bye,

    Daneel
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Daneel a écrit :
    > On 29 Mar 2005 07:49:36 -0800, Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >> That's my point, and why I brought up the topic. It seems to me that,
    >> if one were playing a Camarilla Vote deck, then Minion Tap/Parity
    >> Shift/Voter Cap are giving you all the pool/blood you need. At that
    >> point, I see adding more blood management cards as counter productive
    >> as you should add some cards that help you get the vote off/etc.
    >
    >
    > Well, the reason I used Blood Dolls in my last Princes vote deck is the
    > fact that with Blood Doll you can quickly deposit blood onto your
    > vampires to get into Parity Shift range.

    you have more efficient methods for doing that : Zillah's valley or Last
    Stand spring to mind ;)
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:58:16 +0200, reyda <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > Daneel a écrit :
    >> On 29 Mar 2005 07:49:36 -0800, Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> That's my point, and why I brought up the topic. It seems to me that,
    >>> if one were playing a Camarilla Vote deck, then Minion Tap/Parity
    >>> Shift/Voter Cap are giving you all the pool/blood you need. At that
    >>> point, I see adding more blood management cards as counter productive
    >>> as you should add some cards that help you get the vote off/etc.
    >>
    >>
    >> Well, the reason I used Blood Dolls in my last Princes vote deck is the
    >> fact that with Blood Doll you can quickly deposit blood onto your
    >> vampires to get into Parity Shift range.
    >
    > you have more efficient methods for doing that : Zillah's valley or Last
    > Stand spring to mind ;)

    Yeah, but how about Zillah's Valley + 3 Blood Dolls? ;)

    Last Stand is a pretty bold card, I was using it in earlier versions, but
    the truth is, if you get a decent enough swing from Parity Shift to
    warrant spending 6 pool on Last Stand, you are probably in a 4-player or
    5-player game. In which case, Last Stand will help you less often than
    it will not help you.

    Also, being able to move blood even after playing a DI or putting out an
    absolutely necessary VHQ or DotS isn't something to sneeze at.

    --
    Bye,

    Daneel
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