What would really show THG as enthusiasts

eden

Champion
This is for flamey as well.

Lately there was talk in the Polls forum about how THG has become corporate sellouts.
I think that to prove whether they still believe in helping us get the real bang for our money, they will go mod a geForce FX to a Quadro FX and show us how it's done (IF it is possible). If it is not doable due to chip layout, then modify a geForce 4 into a Quadro 4. Whatever it is, just show something that would truly piss the nVidia financial department, like it would piss any company out when hardware enthusiast websites promote ways to get the real bang for the buck.
This would truly prove if they are slaves for companies or if they cater first to enthusiasts. Most discrete hardware enthusiast websites do mods, yet they continue functioning. If THG can do this and prove to us we are valuable and deserve our enthusiast position in here, they'll do it.
Lars or whoever writes graphics card articles, please, hear me out and comment!

Flamey will definitly be in favor of this as well.


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LtBlue14

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they already did piss off nVidia, or at least intentionally went against their wishes, by not posting <i>benchmarks</i> on the 5200 and 5600 but just saying what the <i>results</i> of those benchmarks were. that was regarded as a pretty tricky move, sort of underhanded, and certainly on the side of the readers

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flamethrower205

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It'd be cool if they got a team and did mod an FX, but my concern is that they are a well respected website and may annoy nv to such a point that they won't send em hardware samples or something like that (and perhaps lose many companies' respect). Thing is that NV has been trying to combat this mod for so long with drivers (and monsieur Unwinder just keeps cracking em:)) but that would really enrage em. Think about it- x-bit labs have been really the only site that's shown how to do this. If I had spare time tho I'd love to write an article and get it posted on modding:)

Hilbert space is a big place.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by flamethrower205 on 03/27/03 08:17 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

eden

Champion
well, either the FX or the Quadro 4, all I want is for THG to prove us this. I am totally aware of the consequences, but the question that remains is really if THG is paid or is made for us. They, Anandtech, all have not crowned the FX, nor have praised the FX5600 at all, and that did not make nVidia enraged at all. Hey, if anything, it makes them realize they have a lot to work on so their cards are un-moddable. Isn't it the way THG uncovered Intel's dirty 1.13GHZ problem?
Anandtech revealed there is a software mod publically to mod the 9500 to a 9700 due to exact board layout.

THG would do nVidia a service as well by modding and showing us how. They can post it as "the weakness of current professional cards and their value".

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flamethrower205

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Here's the other side of it. Let's assume atm that the FX is moddable. NV knows that there are people out there who know/ will know how to mod to quadro, but those r a minority. Now if THG creates an article like that then it spreads to a lot more people and then the problem is greater, costing them a lot more money. What has been their response to the small group of people modding? Simply release drivers for which the hack doesn't apply. How do we get around it? Update the hack. This small scale modding prolly doesn;t cost em that much money, and many pros do not know about it. But once they r aware of it it may cost NV bigtime $$ and their response will be to make the quadros significantly different in hardware such that it is no longer moddable in any way shape or form. Then we're stuck. I would love to see someone big like THG start making and finding the mods cause we'd get a lot faster software updates, etc., but there are just too many things that would go against us.

Hilbert space is a big place.
 

eden

Champion
Are the R300 moddable to FireXGLs?
Do you not think that ATi is doing the right thing in contrast to how you and I picture THG's actions of doing such would cause?
In other words, if THG did that to NV, they would eventually go for unmoddable cards, and it'll be ATi who wins here, because they lose no profit on their pro cards.

I still think they should do so, to prove to nVidia that yes the market does do these things and their cards are being misused.

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flamethrower205

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Lol, why are you wanting this, as one who could potentially benefit from NV's quadro moddable cards? They know, the production costs don't warrant the sales loss tho. Ati cards r moddable too.

Hilbert space is a big place.
 
Along the same lines the Inquirer (I think) reported a patent by Intel to disable overclocking. Not much more that I know, just that when te chips/device detects overclocking (out of set parameters) then it will scale back the processor.
Many that's crude, now you can't extend the life of your chip.

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Stoochie

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Toms hardware doesnt need to prove anything. They dont claim to be an OC website, they review hardware and give you their honest opinion. Pissing off companies is not proof of enthusiasm, its proof of being an [-peep-]. you sound like you are at war with nvidia and you havfe something against them. Why else would you want them pissed off? Nvidia has done incredible things, if you want a pro card, then pay for it so that they can improve their products. Showing you how to rip off a company is not proof of enthusiasm at all.

Also, real pros will not mod their cards into fake pro cards. only amateurs will. Pros work in companies that provide the top of the line so whats the point of messing with your stuff?

Anyway, i dont think tomshardware has to prove anything, there are so many instances of toms going against the wishes of manufacturers for the benefit of users that i cant even count them all. They have cpus running at insane speeds and readily show you how to do it. Also, a mass scale modding of gaming cards would cost nvidia DEARLY and they can easily take tom to court over it. As long as this modding stays low key and underground, nvidia has no reason to go after the people that do it.

In addition, toms hardware makes serious money, no name enthusiast sources barely make ends meet, it would be pointless to take them to court because they dont have much money to fork over as it is. Toms hardware would be a great defendant and serve as an example for the rest of them. You are asking toms hardware to stick their necks out for possible decapitation and loss of respect of other manufacturers...not gonna happen.

Other websites NEED to post that stuff to attract visitors, since tomshardware does such a great job of taking care of everything else.




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jamesdcarroll

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I totally agree. Mostly.

I would expect that Tom's main purpose is to provide HONEST appraisals of the products and insight into how they really work. Now, if in that endeavor he uncovers something that might get a few percentage points out of a card then fine.

But to expect him to cut his own throat by pissing off manufacturers who'll stop the free goodies just so that you can save a few bucks is just silly.
 

GeneticWeapon

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I come to Tom's for one thing...this forum. When I want interesting articles and comparisons, I go to Beyond 3D, Anandtech, and [H]ard OCP....

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Willamette_sucks

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Ah weapon, now ya went and made me cry:(
I love toms and think they have the best, most accurate, most in depth information, in many of their reviews, of all the big hardware sites. not all, but many.
i do agree however, that i would like to see them mod a 9500 a gf4 and/or FX, and stuff.

gotta admit though anand and hardocp have some good articles.

i guess im just a little partial to toms, and give it* the benefit of the doubt, because its the first place where i started learning about COMPU-TAR MACHIENES! one tiem i learned taht teh PENtiUM MxX was made by teh INTEL FIRM CORP. AHAHAHH!
www.somethingawful.com/jeffk :)
neways, toms is where it all started for me a year and a half ago, so i still always look for articles here first, then go elsewhere.

im on the hard ocp forum, but seriously, there are just WAY too many people on there!
plus i like the thg forums orginization better.
i think im on the anand forum too... but i never post there.
BTW, everywhere but here im known as The_OC_King, which is also my gaming name.

Long live ATI.
 

Unit01

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One thing that really made them look like sellouts in my opinion was the FX review. When they crowned it the new king i was like huh? '_-
But they have improved some from the degration.
 

eden

Champion
Then why would they go ahead and post mods to the new AthlonXPs and let us unlock the multipliers?
Does AMD endorse multiplier unlocking to get further performance?
I was not saying pissing off nVidia as in to annoy them. And to the guy who thinks I have a problem with them, if you continue to think so, you'll get something at you.

THG has itself stated hardware enthusiasm is what we want. I think perhaps Omid's rants were also targetting such at some point. If we only review but don't show the people who MOD things how to get more out of their systems, then why don't we just let PC World magazine do that?

If Anandtech admitted out loud the 9500 can be modded, so can THG at least report the possibility to mod the FX. As for my previous stating of why should I want nVidia to lock their cards, I meant it if we looked at THEIR side of things. Of course I don't want them to do so, though if we looked at the benefit of uncovering such on a THG source label, nVidia's side would be happy to make sure their cards become more different between series.

In anycase, seems like hardware enthusiasm is missing in some areas...

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flamethrower205

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Companies don't encourage OC b/c it voids warranty b/c u can fry chip easily. Is that gonna hurt them that bad? No. You get a X.YGhz chip, then OC it to 1.5*X.YGhz and yay, u oced, but u still paid $$ and the difference won't be that big between several hundred Mhz. But with the quadros, it's considerably more expensive. BTW, u do come across like u're waging a war hehe.

Hilbert space is a big place.
 

jclw

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TheGreatGrapeApe:
Along the same lines the Inquirer (I think) reported a patent by Intel to disable overclocking. Not much more that I know, just that when te chips/device detects overclocking (out of set parameters) then it will scale back the processor.
Many that's crude, now you can't extend the life of your chip.
<A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/tips00323/" target="_new">Ed Stroligo @overclockers.com</A>:
Before talking about it, here's one important detail.

This patent was applied for a long time ago. The application was filed September 29, 1999. Those of you who have been around a while might recall that Intel was quite disturbed at the time by remarkers selling overclocked machines without telling buyers about that.

What was of interest to Intel then may not be of interest to Intel now.

...
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eden

Champion
Why did Intel discontinue the 1.6As?
Because everyone was buying them and getting 50% overclocks, to 2.4GHZ, which is a huge number when back then the 2.2s were the top. With that in mind, considering high-end Pentium 4s cost 650$, and a 1.6A cost as much as 120$, you just made Intel lose over 500$ in profit because you got to overclock.

I'm not gonna be angry at THG if they respond and say they can't, but my point still stands, they have come a long way since the day they simply showed us how to get the most out of something, whether by modding or simply tweaking it.

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eden

Champion
So, if a website mods a geForce to a Quadro, it's anti-nV?
So you are anti-NV as well by ruining their business by modding? (or the persons you've helped mod theirs if yours is a genuine)

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flamethrower205

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No no, I didn't mean it in that way at all. What I meant is much of the atmosphere here feels anti-NV, and thus ur seemingly war like statement. That's all. Yo, have u noticed things r pretty tense around the forums lately? I mean everybody's going off on everybody.

Hilbert space is a big place.
 

eden

Champion
Lol, dare I say even the men have a right to act like they have PMS week? :lol:

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