ATI Having Problems with R400?

Twitch

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<A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com/index.php" target="_new">http://www.beyond3d.com/index.php</A>

Skim down the page a bit and you'll see the article.

From every source I've read, the NV35 will feature a 256-bit memory bus and will offer significant improvements over NV30. nVidia has already been through the .13 process headaches. Is there an advantage to be had by nVidia for moving to .13 first?

This is all rumor-mill, I think, so take it with a grain of salt. I have been wondering, though, if ATI can avoid having the same problems going to .13 process that EVERYONE else has had.



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From every source I've read, the NV35 will feature a 256-bit memory bus and will offer significant improvements over NV30. nVidia has already been through the .13 process headaches. Is there an advantage to be had by nVidia for moving to .13 first?
No, there is very little advantage to Nvidia, because now they are changing their foundry, they are moving to IBM, which is much more the advantage than simply experience with their bad chip. The partnership with IBM is the best thing Nvidia could have done.
As for the R400, the article even mentions that it's likely the set-top and integretated chips from ATI's multimedia box/consumer products line, and not their Gaming line. However they theorize that it MAY involve the R400. Yeah I read this a while back in the Globe and MAil's coverage of the conf. call. Ati still has their experiences with the R9600 to help them through to the R400, the question is timelines, will the NV35 reach us by Summer? I highly doubt it, they JUST signed a deal to fabricate the chips it seems. Nvidia has gleaned some knowledge about the 0.13 process from the FXs but so far they have been failures that likely would have been better off in the labs and not on the consumer market.
Anyhooo, just worried that the problem maybe Taiwan Semi., then it would have been better for ATI to work with IBM, heck they're closer to upstate NY than Nvidia, but we'll see. I think that that move was the best thing coming out of Nvidia in a while.Imagine a Nano-Tube VPU. Mmmm tubes!

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Actually while we're speculating, I think it's because ATI will be putting dual VPUs and quad ramdacs for 4 monitor control for true surround gaming. Plus ATI will mount a watercooling solution using Mountain Dew for the retail boards, and Canada Dry for the OEMs (or whatever the OEM can afford, Sprite maybe? And let's not forget a few LEDs to spice things up for the mod'ers. 'What are those? They're speed holes / speed Leds' Now all of this new stuff will take up 3 PCI slots, but as we've seen from the FX buyers, who needs PCI slots? PErhaps an external power supply with optional Gas power Coleman 2750W Generator.

Well that's just what I get out of the article "we're gonna do something different" :tongue:

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Twitch

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I still think that ATI has better and more motivated engineers right now. To me, the biggest disadvantage ATI has is that they have continued to bleed money even with the success of R9X000. At some point, they're going to have to turn a profit. nVidia is living on reputation for now. That can't continue to do so for long, but it is obvious that nVidia has the financial assets to compete if they choose to do so.

I think if NV35 proves to be superior to 9800 PRO, and ATI is late to the market with R400, it could be very bad for ATI in the long run. Yes, those are a lot of "ifs,"
but ATI needs to establish the performance lead across all lines for a couple years in order to stave off nVidia, I think. The one advantage ATI does not have is hordes of loyal users who have bought their product for years and now do so out of habit. They have a few, but not like nVidia. Those who are informed choose ATI, but the mainstream is not always well-informed.

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Twitch, EXACTLY where do you get this 'they have continued to bleed money' stuff? They made a profit AGAIN this year, and each quarter in between, yes the profit was DOWN compared to last year but that was mainly one-time charges and the cost of legal settlements and the OSC 'arms length' investigative board, and still it's a positive number not a loss. In no way is ATI bleeding money, they have been profitable for quite some time. Whoever told you that they weren't turning a profit hasn't read a financial report in their entire life. In fact this years profit was MORE than last year, and only appears lower AFTER those one time chargres (still about $300,000). Yeah they might not be as profitable as Nvidia (I don't know I didn't check their figures so perhaps they are more profitable) however that's irrelevant, they are different production structures.

As for who buys what, forget the FANBOYS, anyone buying a board for themselves is likely GOING to get informaed as they are plunking down big money, the fanboys stick with their fav., and the ill-informed get whatever their retailer (Dell, Gateway, IBM, HP, etc) decided to slap into the computer they buy.

It's true that there is alot riding on the R400 especially now that Nvidia is with IBM, however the same is true of the NV35, it better be good (I expect it to be better than the R9800) or else Nvidia is in serious trouble.
However I don't know where you're getting your financial data, however it is inccorrect. Heck just check the link to ATI's quarterly report from a week or so ago, and it will provide you with all the info over the past 2 years, with the last 6 mths and last 3 mths being the 'going forward' indicator. The gaming market may cost alot in R&D and they may even finance that with the set-top and built-in chip market (I didn't get that cosey with the report).
I remember you or someone else writing about this about a month ago, and after seeing the quarterly/financial year end report from ATI in the Globe and Mail, I thought, what the heck were they talking about.
ATI IS profitable, check the figures.

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Twitch

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<A HREF="http://mirror.ati.com/companyinfo/ir/2002/ATI2002.pdf" target="_new">http://mirror.ati.com/companyinfo/ir/2002/ATI2002.pdf</A>

<A HREF="http://news.com.com/2117-1040-960473.html" target="_new">http://news.com.com/2117-1040-960473.html</A>

The company's loss for the fourth quarter, which ended Aug. 31, totaled $32.2 million, or 14 cents a share, compared with a loss of $11.6 million in the same quarter a year ago. For the 2002 fiscal year, the loss totaled $47.5 million, down from 2001's $54.2 million loss.

They are showing good earnings growth, but they have still been running at a net loss, and this has been the case for a while now. Recently, they have been losing less money than they did in 2000 and 2001, but a loss is a loss. They have had a couple quarters with net profitability, but not many. They lost money last quarter, too, though they would have turned a profit had it not been for litigation.

Are you sure you're not looking at the financials for Allegheny Technologies Inc.?

<A HREF="http://www.canada.com/national/story.asp?id={68B13E0D-E35A-4EA6-A0EF-9645DB5C0A09}" target="_new">http://www.canada.com/national/story.asp?id={68B13E0D-E35A-4EA6-A0EF-9645DB5C0A09}</A>

<A HREF="http://mirror.ati.com/companyinfo/ir/2002/ATI2002.pdf" target="_new">http://mirror.ati.com/companyinfo/ir/2002/ATI2002.pdf</A>



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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Twitch on 03/30/03 08:32 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

flamethrower205

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This is a tad off topic, but I'd just like to mention that this weekend I got to mess around in IBM's chip design/ manufacturing facilities. Got to check out the future .6 and .45 processes, even talked with a dude who was working with NV on this stuff. Plus, checked out their chip designs. Such nice stuff:)

Hilbert space is a big place.
 

lhgpoobaa

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so??? i hope you remembered to pick up some .45um chips for me young man!

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Yes I'm sure of what I was looking at it ATI, or as it trades on the TSE, ATY. The article was about 1/2 a page of broadsheet in the Report on Business section of the Globe and Mail. Here's a link to their online articles;

http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/WireFeedRedirect?cf=GlobeInvestor/config&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&date=20030322&archive=gam&slug=RATII

Sorry about the length still getting used to posting links here with click tabs.

Now the main problem is how ATI reports their before/after adjustments.
Especially with the OSC investigation etc. This online version wasn't as detailed as the one in R.O.B., but it even mentions that after tax, carry over etc. the profit was about 9.7 million, which is down from last year.
The thing is accounting. Operational profits for ongoing activities vs. debt financing, carry-over, the OSC thing, etc.

Anywhoo, it all depends on your accountant, which is why the #1 movie of the year can still be viewed as 'unprofitable'.

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Twitch

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Well, I'm not a stock broker--I do a some trading on the side, and if I was an ATI investor, I would be a little edgy right now. It has nothing to do with the quality of ATI's product. ATI obviously makes an excellent product. I'm thinking in terms of a soft tech market overall (I am out of the Nasdaq totally right now,) and the sneaking suspicion I have that ATI is going to be late with .13 products. My suspicion is not unsubstaniated, but it is also not confirmed.

I do know that .13 is problamatic for everyone. Hardware Central has any article talking about how ATI will be leaving 9500 PRO on the market a while longer, because of apparent issues with the 9600. (This may actually be good for consumers, since 9600 will be slower than 9500, but anyway...) Also, R400 apparently has not taped out yet, and it normally should have taped out already if it was truly going to reach the market on ATI's timetable.

Who knows? Maybe ATI can continue to ramp up the .15 process a little longer. They already have well exceeded the speeds "experts" thought was possible from .15. [H]ardOCP says the 9800 PRO clocks to 440 core pretty easily. That's about 20% faster than I ever thought we'd see .15 process ramp.

Looking at it in terms of risk, I'm trying to figure out if ATI can make due even without high yields from .13--for now. It ALL depends, I suppose, on how good NV35 is. If NV35 can barely beat 9800 PRO, then ATI has no worries.

On the other hand, maybe the observers are wrong, and ATI really is having no problems with .13 yields.


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eden

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Are you sure about 9600 being slower?
Or maybe you are referring to 9600 standard non-PRO?

ATi's stocks have been horrid lately, yet they were doing wonders in the market. I don't understand why their high demand and supply has not yeilded better share prices...


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Twitch

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From what I've read, the 9600 PRO is going to be not quite as fast as the 9500 PRO, though I don't know how anyone can know that for certain.

Why does ATI struggle financially despite having great products? Well, maybe GreatGrapeApe is right, and they are actually profitable, though I always take a company's "adjusted net income" figures with a grain of salt, since there is no standardized methodology for computing adjusted net income. I have had more success using the bottom-line figure of "net income," since this is a standardized, auditable figure, and accurately reflects a company's profits (or lack thereof) after deducting expenses from revenues. Ape is right--it is possible to be profitable through other means while showing a net loss, but it still is not indicative of a company on sound financial ground--especially if it is repetitive.

Now, that being said, ATI HAS been doing much better profit-wise of late, and this can be directly attributed to the success of the 9X00 product line.

Why does nVidia make more net profit on revenues? There are several reasons, and I don't know all of them. I do know that nVidia is a CHIP and CHIPSET manufacturer--they do not manufacture graphics cards or motherboards. That's advantageous for a few reasons--nVidia does not have to spend capital on facilities for mass-producing completed graphics cards. They create the GPU and a reference design, a few hundred samples, produce chips by the tens-of-thousands through leased foundries, ship those chips to companies like BFG, Asus, MSI, and Gainward, and those companies absorb the production costs, including staff, facilities, quality control, the vast majority of warranty claims, and a large share of the marketing costs.

ATI, on the other hand, does still produce complete graphics cards. Now, obviously, that is not helping their bottom-line, since ATI is trying to move its operations towards the nVidia model. Believe it or not, despite the animosity between fanboys, the two companies actually harbor some mutual respect. ATI would prefer to be a chip manufacturer, which is why we are seeing more and more third-party manufacturers of "Powered by ATI" motherboards, like Visiontek, Sapphire, and others. ATI understands that chip production is the most efficient and profitable portion of their operations. They even talk about it in their 2002 financial report.

nVidia also has continued to do well in the much-maligned budget and mainstream markets. The Ti4200 is one of the most successful GPU's in the history of 3D graphics. The mainstream is called "the mainstream" for a reason--because that's where the majority of a company's revenues derive.

Add to that the fact that nVidia OWNS the AMD chipset market so completely that even VIA's brand-new and much bally-hooed KT400A chipset STILL does not beat the nForce2--not even in single-channel mode! VIA is not going to be able to bring KT400A to the market in quantity for at least another month or six weeks, and by that time, we should be hearing about the nForce2-S, or nForce3 (or whatever nVidia calls it) which will feature further enhancements to improve performance, and will also feature integrated SATA on the southbridge. (At least, that's the rumor.) So, nVidia will own the Athlon XP--and likely the A-64--crown for at least another six months.

That being said, AMD must continue to be competitive for nVidia to have continued success in the chipset market. So that is ONE marker that nVidia owns, but can't really control.

And don't forget nVidia's $200 million advance from Microsoft for building XBOX core logic and integrated graphics and audio. nVidia also claimed a pretty healthy royalty share from XBOX sales. I can pretty much guarantee that nVidia has made as much if not more money off XBOX than Microsoft has.

Anyway, factor everything in, and what it amounts to is that nVidia has just been more efficiently run than ATI, and has effectively taken advantage of its reputation as the 3D chipset king.

Right now, however, nVidia is losing revenues on NV30--guaranteed. The enthusiast market may not be the biggest, but it does generally have higher margins, and it can be the difference between profitability and merely breaking even. nVidia did the smart thing by scrapping FX-Ultra and moving directly to NV35. The deal with IBM is also interesting. A lot hinges on how good NV35 is and how soon it can be brought to market (I'm hearing maybe as soon as late May-early June. NV35 has already taped out, so it isn't unreasonable, assuming IBM's foundry can produce higher yields...)

ATI has made a big impact in graphics cards over the last few months. In terms of investing, however, nVidia seems like the safer bet--for now. If ATI can bring R350 and R400 to market on-time and with sufficient yields, they have an opportunity to own the graphics performance crown for at least another year. If that's the case, ATI will show a real, bottom-line, on-the-financials, SEC approved profit this year--and then all bets are off. ATI could become a juggernaut.

However, if the rumors are true, and they are running into some of the same .13 issues regarding yields, then it changes the equation considerably. Don't underestimate the advantage nVidia still holds in the marketplace based only on their reputation. We're talking pure economics here--nVidia is a viable company and I expect them to challenge to regain the performance crown.
If I had to buy a graphics card today, I would buy an ATI.
If I had to buy stock today (thank goodness I don't) I would probably buy nVidia, and hope NV35 is a great chip.
In reality, though, I'm not real high on either stock, considering how soft the tech-stocks are right now.

I'm probably going to wait until Q4 to decide which way to go.



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flamethrower205

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I got the stuff *cough* you got my stuff. Meet at the west dock tonight, we talk there. Bring your thugz, I'm brinin Jimmy- you know him right? Called im scissors cause he cut a guy in half. See you in an hour, and bring the stuff.

Hilbert space is a big place.
 

lhgpoobaa

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excellent... ill be there.

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Twitch

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Just make sure you bring enough for all of us on this thread. It would be just awful if the "authorities" just happened to find out about this little transaction. Of course, if you bring back enough for me and Grape, I'm sure we can keep it on the down-low. Otherwise...who knows who might find out?



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marneus

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I had a look at your link... cool hamsters ;-) (wot no badgers ??)

Hmmm, wonder if I can get a valid page fault ???
these invalid ones are far too commonplace...
 

lhgpoobaa

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hehehe just hamsters... and my beautiful car, oh, also my GF too ;)

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flamethrower205

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Hey, I thought we calls you tight lips cause we can't get a peep outta u. What/s dis ratting us on the cops? Just wait, Jimmy's gonna take care of you pal! Yeah, that's right. You's got 2 hours to back your bags and leaves.

Hilbert space is a big place.