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Fun and card games

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Anonymous
April 18, 2005 4:02:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

An interesting article on magicthegathering website... it talks about
how to make things fun in CCGs.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr172

Here's my favorite bits. Edited for VTES. Lets see how they apply to
VTES for fun.

"Give them something they don't have but want - Make a VTES card that
does something that's never been done before. Or give them an effect
that has been done before but with a twist that allows new uses. Give
them an old effect but in a new discipline or card type."

Right, we've been seeing these a bit. Grasp of the Python does Immortal
Grapple Serpentis style. Sonar is protean intercept... We've seen
Warning Sirens. Shared Strength is an effect we haven't seen yet. Of
course, all of these are underwhelming for some reason... IMO

"Take away something they do have but don't want - Create cards that
provide new answers to old problems. Make cards that change the
environment to shift the game away from an unpopular place. Heck, ban
and restrict problem cards."

This really hasn't been happening... sure we got rid of table seat
switching. Much needed. Thanks. And I suppose we are trying to switch
away from an unpopular place.. that being stealth bleed being so
powerful... and LSJs trying to adress bounce... slowly and surely...

"Make them feel good about themselves - Make cards that require
thought to build around. Create narrow cards that players have to
search to find uses for. Build open-ended cards that allow for the
possibility of interesting combos."

Ooohh... thought. This game makes my head hurt, but doesn't reward me
for trying to be too creative... Immense size? narrow... but what's the
use? Notice that not once in this fun thread do they mention 'silver
bullets' or anything that could apply to the creation of them...

"Help them accomplish a desire - Create a card that finally allows a
deck type to exist. Make a new ability that answers a plea that players
have been clamoring for. Finish the cycle."

And this is a bit about the last paragraph again too... unmasking was
cool. but that's about all we've been handed so far... ok, sure. VTES
moves slow, and there may be other things we were handed but did not
realize (though I doubt that those things were intentional. if we
haven't caught them yet, I doubt LSJ and his design team did in their 9
months of Playtesting... Thougwho knows. Maybe they're smarter than I'm
giving them credit for).

"Create something that produces a pleasurable experience - Make cards
that make interesting moments unto themselves. Create cards that
combine to create some culmination. Put together cards that drip with
flavor."

This is fine in VTES. lots of vamps with pluses and minuses vs. certain
clans and situations... some powerful combos that can be pulled off
that people try to pull off sometimes... I'm just not feeling the
flavor a whole lot though... sure the KMW set had a theme, but did it
feel like all cards had a simlar purpose? a bit... I suppose the whole
hunting things and warning sirens and phased motion detector...but
other cards don't fi in with the flavor so much... all well. over all
KMW did a prety good job.

"Surprise them - Make cards, mechanics and themes they don't expect.
Tweak old cards in ways they don't anticipate. Do things in every
aspect of the card that they just don't see coming."

I haven't been surprised by VTES lately... unsettingly surprised about
the silly trophy bit... a bit surprised LSJ actually banned
somethings... but in general? Not so much. I think I WILL be surprised
by the next set though... just a hunch.

"Give them something they've been waiting for - Foreshadow something
is coming and then make it. Create cycles over time that allows the
player to anticipate what comes next. Evolve themes in a way that lets
the players guess what comes next."

Hmmm... haven't noticed any of that...

"Pump their adrenaline - Create cards with a large variance in effect.
Make cards that are high risk, high reward. Put out cards that push the
metagame in aggressive ways."

Hmm... in the past couple of sets prior to this sure... haven't really
noticed any high risk cards lately... though the meta game does seem
shifted towards combat... well... its TRYing to get shifted that way...

"Challenge them - Make cards that dare players to find a use for
them. Create cards that require extensive play to master. Put out cards
that hide their true power level."

This is probably all over the place, but mostly overshadowed by
powerful cards that existed since day one...

"Show them the thrill of victory - Make big cards with huge effects
that dominate the game. Create cards of a high power level that
consistently bring home the win. Put out cards that combine to create
devastating effects."

The best combo's I've seen are condition and spying mission, but that's
just my opinion.

Let me know what ya'll think. Later.

More about : fun card games

Anonymous
April 18, 2005 4:45:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

I rather liked Trohpies, and the KMW set as a whole.
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 6:48:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hmmm... I just realized, thanks to a rereading of this post, how sour
and poopy I sound. Just ignore my comments and read the quoted
information and formulate your own opinions about how this MTG
representative applies fun to CCGs applies to VTES.

~SV
Related resources
April 19, 2005 3:26:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Ooohh... thought. This game makes my head hurt, but doesn't reward me
> for trying to be too creative... Immense size?

Immense size isn't that bad. It's a press for VIC that doesn't cost a
blood, has a funky little bonus (no grapples), can be used to continue
or end and isn't related to a strike. It's cool. I wouldn't play a
heap of them, but I may play a couple.

--> J
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 11:47:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Johannes Walch wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > Hmmm... I just realized, thanks to a rereading of this post, how
sour
> > and poopy I sound. Just ignore my comments and read the quoted
> > information and formulate your own opinions about how this MTG
> > representative applies fun to CCGs applies to VTES.
>
> You are not wrong on most of your points. All of the last expansions,

> KMW, Black Hand, Anarchs except for Gehenna weren´t too exciting and
are
> missing most of the points you have quoted.

well thanks for your vote of confidence...

> The question is if the article posted by the editors of Magic can be
> held "true" for V:TES without a doubt considering the fact that
people
> have switched to V:TES because they were immensely bored by Magic.

That'd be a good statistic to have... how we all started VTES.I wonder
why WW doesn't do more surveys (or maybe they do!).

Regardless, I'm sure the guy kept MTG in mind when he wrote that
article, but I think they were more general than that. Reading through
them again, his points ring true for many ccgs... all that I can think
of (though some other ccgs may have points of fun and excitement that
were not included in these, that I haven't been able to think of).

> But after all the game is still fun ;-)

In a weird kinda' way, not defined in this guys article, nor in a way
in which IS definable perhaps...

~SV
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 11:54:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Stefan Ferenci wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > Hmmm... I just realized, thanks to a rereading of this post, how
sour
> > and poopy I sound.
> > ~SV
> >
>
> SV dont get me wrong, but 95%of your posts sound sour and poppy

Mmmm... poopy sours.

~SV
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:01:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Hmmm... I just realized, thanks to a rereading of this post, how sour
> and poopy I sound.
> ~SV
>

SV dont get me wrong, but 95%of your posts sound sour and poppy

stefan
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:36:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Hmmm... I just realized, thanks to a rereading of this post, how sour
> and poopy I sound. Just ignore my comments and read the quoted
> information and formulate your own opinions about how this MTG
> representative applies fun to CCGs applies to VTES.

You are not wrong on most of your points. All of the last expansions,
KMW, Black Hand, Anarchs except for Gehenna weren´t too exciting and are
missing most of the points you have quoted.

The question is if the article posted by the editors of Magic can be
held "true" for V:TES without a doubt considering the fact that people
have switched to V:TES because they were immensely bored by Magic.

But after all the game is still fun ;-)

--
johannes walch
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:56:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Pump their adrenaline - Create cards with a large variance in effect.
> Make cards that are high risk, high reward. Put out cards that push the
> metagame in aggressive ways."

Depends on what kind of reward, and what kind of risk. Losing (or winning)
because of chance is not much fun, so no "flip a coin; heads: bleed +5,
tails: burn this vampire" action modifiers please.

> "Show them the thrill of victory - Make big cards with huge effects
> that dominate the game. Create cards of a high power level that
> consistently bring home the win. Put out cards that combine to create
> devastating effects."

This doesn't sound like fun at all. I don't want cards that dominate the
game. I want to try many different deck ideas, and without the shadow
of "Nice idea, but deck X is plain better" over me.

I like the rest of the post though. :) 

Rogar
April 22, 2005 6:55:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Anarach expansion was mostly very sad.
No real bite to the library, cards just harassment.
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 10:27:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Johannes Walch" <johannes.walch@vekn.de> wrote in message
news:D 42ce1$an4$1@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net...
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
>
> You are not wrong on most of your points. All of the last expansions, KMW,
> Black Hand, Anarchs except for Gehenna weren´t too exciting and are
> missing most of the points you have quoted.
>

Actually I think KMW is one the better expanions the game has ever had, and
I quite like the cards avilable from Black Hand. The only dissapointing
expansion for me was Anarchs.

--
Colin "Eryx" Goodman
Samedi Primogen
Cambridge UK
http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.htm...
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 10:40:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> "Give them something they don't have but want - Make a VTES card that
> does something that's never been done before. Or give them an effect
> that has been done before but with a twist that allows new uses. Give
> them an old effect but in a new discipline or card type."
>

This is what every expansion should have.

>
> "Take away something they do have but don't want - Create cards that
> provide new answers to old problems. Make cards that change the
> environment to shift the game away from an unpopular place. Heck, ban
> and restrict problem cards."
>

We kinda have this, what with the banning of seat swapping. I don't see (off
the top of my head and without too much thought) anything else in VTES thats
this approach.

>
> "Make them feel good about themselves - Make cards that require
> thought to build around. Create narrow cards that players have to
> search to find uses for. Build open-ended cards that allow for the
> possibility of interesting combos."
>

I'd rather have the open-ended card idea. I don't want to have spend too
much thought working out the best (or even any) use for a card.

>
> "Help them accomplish a desire - Create a card that finally allows a
> deck type to exist. Make a new ability that answers a plea that players
> have been clamoring for. Finish the cycle."
>

Make deck destruction more viable, and perhaps alternate means of securing
VP.

>
> "Create something that produces a pleasurable experience - Make cards
> that make interesting moments unto themselves. Create cards that
> combine to create some culmination. Put together cards that drip with
> flavor."
>

Just don't go the route of having vampires or allies that get better or
require other cards. I've seen that all too often in other CCG's and its a
bad idea.

>
> "Surprise them - Make cards, mechanics and themes they don't expect.
> Tweak old cards in ways they don't anticipate. Do things in every
> aspect of the card that they just don't see coming."
>

So long as it still fits the nature of VTES and the old WoD then all good. I
would however, like to see expansions that didn't give new mechanics, just
new cards.

>>
>> "Give them something they've been waiting for - Foreshadow something
>> is coming and then make it. Create cycles over time that allows the
>> player to anticipate what comes next. Evolve themes in a way that lets
>> the players guess what comes next."
>
> Hmmm... haven't noticed any of that...

Really? What about the storyline tournaments? I think they fit this idea
perfectly. Theres already been some discussion about where the follow-up to
the Infernal SL will go.

>
> "Pump their adrenaline - Create cards with a large variance in effect.
> Make cards that are high risk, high reward. Put out cards that push the
> metagame in aggressive ways."
>

Not sure about that. Could get nasty depending on what the card does.

>
> "Challenge them - Make cards that dare players to find a use for
> them. Create cards that require extensive play to master. Put out cards
> that hide their true power level."
>

If this was expanded upon it might be a bit too much of a MtG idea for VTES.

>
> "Show them the thrill of victory - Make big cards with huge effects
> that dominate the game. Create cards of a high power level that
> consistently bring home the win. Put out cards that combine to create
> devastating effects."
>

Nope. Too strong. VTES doesn't need big cards like this IMO.

--
Colin "Eryx" Goodman
Samedi Primogen
Cambridge UK
http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.htm...

>
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 1:29:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Rogar wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I like Gambit Accepted, but that's because it allows you to bet on
your own
> skill, not on chance. The card idea above seems way overpowered; I
know
> plenty of decks that wouldn't care if they couldn't play combat
cards, and
> would love the stealth and anti-reaction. And there's always
Obedience.
> Still, I suppose the principle could be fun.

Right, it was just thrown out there as a suggestion. Perhaps only print
that ability on vampires without the ability to play obedience (without
skill cards), or rescale the advantages, as neccesary.

> Sure, away with Dominate. But if you put out more cards that dominate
the
> game and push aside Dominate, you've got power escalation. I'll pass,
> thanks.

You're passing on creative thought and hope too then. I still hold that
its possible to push the meta away from dominate and NOT have power
escalation... but that's just me (and a few others that I've talked
to...).
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 10:01:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
>
> Right, it was just thrown out there as a suggestion. Perhaps only
print
> that ability on vampires without the ability to play obedience
(without
> skill cards), or rescale the advantages, as neccesary.
>
Well, if it's a +bleed +stealth card, then no minion could possibly
play that card and obedience in the same action... :-?
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 10:55:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Chris Berger wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> >
> > Right, it was just thrown out there as a suggestion. Perhaps only
> print
> > that ability on vampires without the ability to play obedience
> (without
> > skill cards), or rescale the advantages, as neccesary.
> >
> Well, if it's a +bleed +stealth card, then no minion could possibly
> play that card and obedience in the same action... :-?

"We're on our way to being gods. Master. 2 pool. Put this card on a
vampire. This vampire gets +1 stealth, +1 bleed, but may not play any
combat cards, nor reactions that do not grant intercept. A methuselah
may pkay only one [cardname] per game."

Or start keywording the ability (or just the disadvantage) and put it
on vampires WITHOUT DOMINATE (or whatver problem skill)...

Do you people need everything spelled out for you? ...

~SV
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 8:47:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > >
> > > Right, it was just thrown out there as a suggestion. Perhaps only
> > print
> > > that ability on vampires without the ability to play obedience
> > (without
> > > skill cards), or rescale the advantages, as neccesary.
> > >
> > Well, if it's a +bleed +stealth card, then no minion could possibly
> > play that card and obedience in the same action... :-?
>
> "We're on our way to being gods. Master. 2 pool. Put this card on a
> vampire. This vampire gets +1 stealth, +1 bleed, but may not play any
> combat cards, nor reactions that do not grant intercept. A methuselah
> may pkay only one [cardname] per game."
>
Jesus, you want something like that as a permanent? Legendary Vampire
is a pretty good card already, kept in line only because it has a real
tight window of opportunity, and a burn clause.
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 8:52:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Chris Berger wrote:
> >
> Jesus, you want something like that as a permanent? Legendary
Vampire
> is a pretty good card already, kept in line only because it has a
real
> tight window of opportunity, and a burn clause.

Oops, let that one go before checking... you changed it down from +2 to
+1 bleed... in that state, it's no worse than Enchanted Marionette.
Not that I think the game needs any more Enchanted Marionnettes...
Anonymous
April 24, 2005 4:21:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1114300334.532253.103350@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Chris Berger <arkayn@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>Oops, let that one go before checking... you changed it down from +2 to
>+1 bleed... in that state, it's no worse than Enchanted Marionette.
>Not that I think the game needs any more Enchanted Marionnettes...

Especially when they stack with Enchanted Marionette. Vampires with +2
stealth and +2 bleed, on top of anything else they might be packing
anyway = ouch.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
April 24, 2005 7:43:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > >
> > > Right, it was just thrown out there as a suggestion. Perhaps only
> > print
> > > that ability on vampires without the ability to play obedience
> > (without
> > > skill cards), or rescale the advantages, as neccesary.
> > >
> > Well, if it's a +bleed +stealth card, then no minion could possibly
> > play that card and obedience in the same action... :-?
>
> "We're on our way to being gods. Master. 2 pool. Put this card on a
> vampire. This vampire gets +1 stealth, +1 bleed, but may not play any
> combat cards, nor reactions that do not grant intercept. A methuselah
> may pkay only one [cardname] per game."
>
> Or start keywording the ability (or just the disadvantage) and put it
> on vampires WITHOUT DOMINATE (or whatver problem skill)...
>
> Do you people need everything spelled out for you? ...
>
> ~SV

rec.addictions.crack-pipe is over there --->

-Bram Vink
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 5:39:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Colin Goodman wrote:
> > Really? What about the storyline tournaments? I think they fit this
> > idea perfectly. Theres already been some discussion about where the
> > follow-up to the Infernal SL will go.
>
> ah, true. Forgot all about that. What was the reward in KMW?
> was there one?

The reward doesn't always appear in the very next expansion release.
Sometimes the lead time doesn't allow for that. In those cases, expect
to see the reward as a promo or in the first expansion where there's
enough time to get it in.

Robert Goudie
V:EKN Storyline Director
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 8:54:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You're passing on creative thought and hope too then. I still hold that
> its possible to push the meta away from dominate and NOT have power
> escalation... but that's just me (and a few others that I've talked
> to...).

I'd like to see you proven right. :) 

Rogar
!