Sleeping Mind in power bleed

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I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks
(like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can
anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me
like this card?

Dorrinal Blackmantle
Chronicler of Clan Tremere


The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Dominate
Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
[dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to
block this action.
[DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
Minions cannot untap during this action.

 

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Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote:
> I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks
> (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful.
Can
> anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me
> like this card?
>
> The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C]
> [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to
> block this action.

It gets a bunch of use at the inferior in that sort of deck (Gio
power-bleed.) Plenty of examples of decks with it in the past have been
posted to the newsgroup and/or tourney archive.

Primarily because it's a 'he can't block' effect that stacks on top of
Seduction and Call the Hungry Dead - if you can play all three, your
prey needs four minions to block your big bleed. Most of the time with
a Giovanni power-bleed deck, your original prey may not ever be able to
transfer out that many; often simply being able to consistently
knock-out two minions is going to leave them hurting. (Plus, the
variety allows you to get around having your Seduction DI'ed.)

-John Flournoy

 

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A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you know
they're playing a lot of Wakes. Stopping various untaps is also
excellent check out this list:

Second Tradition
Guard Dogs
Rat's Warning
Special Report
Eternal Vigilance
Zillah's Tears
Babble
Speak With Spirits
Black Sunrise
The Mole
Read The Winds

There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these
untaps:

Cat's Guidance
Majesty
Earth Meld

Most of the cards in these lists are used in many decks.

Other things to consider:

-Easily Cyclable ( though it does cost a blood )
-If a Seduction is cancelled you can use the Seeping Mind as an
alternate (if they're tapped, of course).

I still believe this is a good card and the amount you're using is
perfect. It is by no means a 'prayer' card and can be that ace in your
pocket for quite a few situations.


Robert Scythe

 

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John Flournoy wrote:
> Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote:
> > I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed
decks
> > (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful.
> Can
> > anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me
> > like this card?
> >
> > The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C]
> > [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to
> > block this action.
>
> It gets a bunch of use at the inferior in that sort of deck (Gio
> power-bleed.) Plenty of examples of decks with it in the past have
been
> posted to the newsgroup and/or tourney archive.
>
> Primarily because it's a 'he can't block' effect that stacks on top
of
> Seduction and Call the Hungry Dead - if you can play all three, your
> prey needs four minions to block your big bleed. Most of the time
with
> a Giovanni power-bleed deck, your original prey may not ever be able
to
> transfer out that many; often simply being able to consistently
> knock-out two minions is going to leave them hurting. (Plus, the
> variety allows you to get around having your Seduction DI'ed.)
>
> -John Flournoy

Ok, is this your personal experience?

Dorrinal Blackmantle
Chronicler of Clan Tremere

 

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"There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these
untaps:


Cat's Guidance
Majesty
Earth Meld "

Does it prevent Majesty and Earth from being played, or just the untap
part?
(Of course... if it does, they can just play both at inferior... but
I'm curious.)

 

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*previous commentary snipped*


Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote:

> Ok, is this your personal experience?

Of course not. I would _never_ play something as sleazy as Giovanni
power-bleed or Crypt Machine decks etc.

*polishes his halo*

I've certainly seen it used in my playgroup by, uh, assorted people
over the last few years.

> Dorrinal Blackmantle
> Chronicler of Clan Tremere

-John Flournoy
-bastion of purity and innocence

 

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<adam.hulse@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1114718271.379559.26950@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Does it prevent Majesty and Earth from being played, or just the untap
> part?
> (Of course... if it does, they can just play both at inferior... but
> I'm curious.)

No - he must be talking about using it at superior when he's observed
that one or more opponent(s) who might be prone to block the action
are known to use Majesty or Earth Meld. It doesn't strike me as being
that useful but at least the superior version is a blanket prohibition -
not simply a single named minion or even the minions of a single named
methuselah.

Fred

 

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"Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
news:1114716205.315235.148640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you know
> they're playing a lot of Wakes.

Um, I don't believe it does anything against an actual Wake.

Fred

 

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"Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
news:1114716205.315235.148640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these
> untaps:
>
> Cat's Guidance
> Majesty
> Earth Meld

Another nit: the Sleeping Mind is only playable on action
announcement. Once you're actually blocked, it's too late.

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
> news:1114716205.315235.148640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you
know
> > they're playing a lot of Wakes.
>
> Um, I don't believe it does anything against an actual Wake.
>
> Fred

You Seduce one and Sleep another. If they're playing a lot of Wakes
that usually means they're TAPPED.

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
> news:1114716205.315235.148640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these
> > untaps:
> >
> > Cat's Guidance
> > Majesty
> > Earth Meld
>
> Another nit: the Sleeping Mind is only playable on action
> announcement. Once you're actually blocked, it's too late.
>
> Fred

Assume that I played the card correctly, Fred, and then read the
sentence that begins with "Plus" again. Anymore nits, picker.

 

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Dorrinal Blackmantle <john.mcglynn@gmail.com> wrote:
> I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks
> (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can
> anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me
> like this card?

This is one of a few cards where the inferior version is generally
better than the superior version.
And I highly support it. Seduction + Sleeping Mind + Call of the Hungry
Dead is 3 vampires that simply can't block you.

The superior version not only doesn't stop vampires from playing Wake cards,
but it does stop the acting minion (who played it!) from playing Freak
Drive!
The only good thing about the superior version is that it stops 2nd
Traditions across the board, and it stops vampires from untapping with
Majesty/Earth Meld. That can come in useful (but again, the acting vamp
can't untap with Majesty either).

 

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"Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
news:1114721918.409894.270270@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
>> news:1114716205.315235.148640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these
>> > untaps:
>> >
>> > Cat's Guidance
>> > Majesty
>> > Earth Meld
>>
>> Another nit: the Sleeping Mind is only playable on action
>> announcement. Once you're actually blocked, it's too late.
>>
>> Fred
>
> Assume that I played the card correctly, Fred, and then read the
> sentence that begins with "Plus" again. Anymore nits, picker.

I guess I'm completely confused, then. You said, "*Plus* if you are
blocked...". Since the function which stops untaps is a separate
function than the one that prevents players from using Guard Dogs
and such***, it only makes sense to extol it as an *additional* value
to the card if you thought it could be played after a block attempt
had been announced. That is, why would you ever play it at superior
unless you were explicitly trying to stop untaps from the get-go?

(*** - Note that the superior does not use the common clause, "AS
ABOVE, AND..." that so many other discipline cards use.)

In any event, if you knew what you meant and I was just misled by
the sort of strange wording you used, sorry. But it's still useful
to point out the nit for anyone else who might have been misled by
the same wording.

Fred

 

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"Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
news:1114721711.611582.314480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
>> news:1114716205.315235.148640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you know
>> > they're playing a lot of Wakes.
>>
>> Um, I don't believe it does anything against an actual Wake.
>
> You Seduce one and Sleep another. If they're playing a lot of Wakes
> that usually means they're TAPPED.

Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and
block AS IF untapped.

Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've
always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and
Forced Awakening.

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
>
> Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and
> block AS IF untapped.
>
> Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've
> always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and
> Forced Awakening.
>
*superior* Sleeping Mind does not affect Wakes, it only affects untaps.
The original version of the card was sick. Inferior Sleeping Mind
only checks if the minion is tapped when it targets them. Sure, they
can still Wake and Deflect, but they can't Wake and block.

 

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"Chris Berger" <arkayn@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:1114725319.166505.227650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>>
>> Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and
>> block AS IF untapped.
>>
>> Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've
>> always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and
>> Forced Awakening.
>>
> *superior* Sleeping Mind does not affect Wakes, it only affects untaps.

Well, yea, I knew that. I was referring to the inferior.

> The original version of the card was sick. Inferior Sleeping Mind
> only checks if the minion is tapped when it targets them. Sure, they
> can still Wake and Deflect, but they can't Wake and block.

Well, that certainly makes sense. But I could have *sworn* that at
least some years ago, for a fair amount of time, the card texts and
rulings between the three cards (Sleeping Mind vs. WwEF and Forced)
was such that inferior Sleeping Mind was deemed not to prevent players
from playing a Wake and still blocking. I don't recall the rationale
exactly but I often don't totally understand the rationale behind the
various rulings.

Does anyone else recall this or is this particular hallucination only
affecting me?

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
> news:1114721711.611582.314480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Frederick Scott wrote:
> >> "Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1114716205.315235.148640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> >A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when
you know
> >> > they're playing a lot of Wakes.
> >>
> >> Um, I don't believe it does anything against an actual Wake.
> >
> > You Seduce one and Sleep another. If they're playing a lot of Wakes
> > that usually means they're TAPPED.
>
> Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and
> block AS IF untapped.
>
> Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've
> always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and
> Forced Awakening.
>
> Fred

Fred, you are completely missing what I originally wrote at the top
there, so here it is again: "It's like a second Seduction". If they are
playing a lot of Wakes then they are tapped, giving you the opportunity
to use Sleep at inferior on another minion; exactly (and nothing more
than) a second Seduction. That's it, that's all I was stating. And I
still believe that this effect is worthy of a couple of slots.

 

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> I guess I'm completely confused, then. You said, "*Plus* if you are
> blocked...". Since the function which stops untaps is a separate
> function than the one that prevents players from using Guard Dogs
> and such***, it only makes sense to extol it as an *additional* value
> to the card if you thought it could be played after a block attempt
> had been announced. That is, why would you ever play it at superior
> unless you were explicitly trying to stop untaps from the get-go?

No, the function which stops untaps is NOT a separate function than the
one that prevents players from using Guard Dogs and such. There is no
additional value that I am adding to the card at all. If you play it at
superior and you are still blocked (by, oh let's say a Wake) then that
minion still cannot untap by any other means ( such as Majesty, Earth
Meld and Cat's Guidance).

> (*** - Note that the superior does not use the common clause, "AS
> ABOVE, AND..." that so many other discipline cards use.)

Of, course. Nowhere did I say or make it sound like I was using both
effects when I spoke of it preventing untaps.

> In any event, if you knew what you meant and I was just misled by
> the sort of strange wording you used, sorry. But it's still useful
> to point out the nit for anyone else who might have been misled by
> the same wording.
>
> Fred

I still do not believe I used any strange wording. When I referred to
preventing untaps I stuck to only that. When I mentioned its use as a
second Seduction I also stuck to just that effect, i.e. its inferior.
The current card text was written in the first post, I expect that if
anybody may be confused at all they should read the first post, then
assume anyone referring to the card is using correctly, then, if any
discrepancies arise, point those out.

 

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"Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
news:1114729378.394631.288360@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I still do not believe I used any strange wording.

OK, I understand the confusion now. I was suffereing from a
brain fart about the superior version that's hard to explain
right off hand so I won't bother. Anyway, yea - I see what
you were trying to say now and it makes total sense.

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
> news:1114729378.394631.288360@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I still do not believe I used any strange wording.
>
> OK, I understand the confusion now. I was suffereing from a
> brain fart about the superior version that's hard to explain
> right off hand so I won't bother. Anyway, yea - I see what
> you were trying to say now and it makes total sense.
>
> Fred

Cool, man. But, I tell you, Fred, if I wasn't already drinking I'd be
needing one right now! 8)

 

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"Robert Scythe" <roberts@exploretalent.com> wrote in message
news:1114732112.671352.122690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
> But, I tell you, Fred, if I wasn't already drinking I'd be
> needing one right now! 8)

Oh, man, you're telling me. I'm still not sure what my
misunderstanding was about the inferior version. I can
remember CLEAR AS A BELL that this card didn't prevent
people from using Wakes to block. I remember thinking that
was just stupid, the card would be interesting to use if
it stopped people from using Wakes to block and the game
would be more interesting for it. And I distinctly recall
reading that point (that you couldn't use it to stop
reacting minions from using Wakes in order to be able to
block) on Usenet on this newsgroup. I vaguely recall some
explanation being given not unlike the reason you can't
use Leathery Hide to prevent aggravated damage being
treated as normal by something like the new Heart of
Darkness. But that could only have been if it were worded
differently and LSJ states that it was worded pretty much
the same as it is now. So I am up the creek without a
clue, here.

I don't mind the instances of forgetting what to buy at
the store or why I walked into a room. But those FALSE
memories that seem to be hallucinations come out of
nowhere - man, those I could use a few stiff drinks to
forget those.

Fred

 

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Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote:
| I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks
| (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can
| anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me
| like this card?

It's a game-winner.

| The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C]
| Cardtype: Action Modifier
| Cost: 1 blood
| Discipline: Dominate
| Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
| [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to
| block this action.

Stacks with Seduction. "Neither Teresita nor Cailean may attempt to
block this action." So good, it's not even funny -- the only reason you
don't see more of it is the 1 blood cost, and even then I'm not sure we
shouldn't see more.

Giovanni bleed decks can now, for 2 blood, outright negate 3 blockers.
This is enough to shred any intercept wall.

| [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
| Minions cannot untap during this action.

The 2nd Tradition, Read the Winds, etc. etc. killer. Particularly good
against Ventrue Law Firm decks, who would love to play 2nd Tradition,
untap, fail to block, and then bounce a big honkin' bleed.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote:

> I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks
> (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can
> anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me
> like this card?

It isn't that useful, as it doesn't prevent the most common reaction
tech--Wake and Forced. It prevents untapping during the action, but Wake and
Forced don't untap you. It works against, like, Guard Dogs and Special
Report, but more often than not, you'll run into Wake or Forced, and
Sleeping Mind doesn't help against those.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh

 

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Derek Ray wrote:
>
> Giovanni bleed decks can now, for 2 blood, outright negate 3
blockers.
> This is enough to shred any intercept wall.
>
Even better, if you use superior Bonding and maybe a few Spiritual
Divinations, you can Seduce the guy with the Sport Bike, Sleeping Mind
the tapped one, then add stealth when blocked, Hungry Dead after they
add intercept, and they'll need to get intercept twice. Assuming they
have at least 4 blockers... Giovanni don't ever need to get blocked if
they don't want to. Just bounced. 8)

> | [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced.
> | Minions cannot untap during this action.
>
> The 2nd Tradition, Read the Winds, etc. etc. killer. Particularly
good
> against Ventrue Law Firm decks, who would love to play 2nd Tradition,
> untap, fail to block, and then bounce a big honkin' bleed.
>
And the best part about these is that a) you can usually tell when a
deck will be using one of the big untappers, and b) most decks don't
use Wakes *and* untappers at the same time (maybe some Forced
Awakenings in a true wall deck that has access to untappers). So you
usually have a real good idea of when superior Sleeping Mind is gonna
be useful.

 

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LSJ wrote:
>
> The original card text is functionally equivalent to the current.
>
> The inferior has always thwarted blocking, wake-induced or otherwise,
> on the part of the target.
>
> The original superior card text merely (redundantly) reminded players
of
> the rule that tapped minions cannot block. You must have extended
> some part of the conversation on that topic to the inferior case
> as well.
>
I recall that before you ruled the original to work the way it
currently does, most people (AFAIK) played that Wakes didn't allow
vampires to block after sup Sleeping Mind. And IIRC, you ruled that
the card should be played "as written, rather than as intended". Since
the phrase "tapped vampires cannot block" couldn't have done anything,
the card had to previously be played according to intention which was
"tapped vampires cannot block regardless of effects that allow them to
block." Of course, that was sick and wrong.

Not arguing with you, just saying that previous to saying "play the
card as written, which means sup Sleeping Mind doesn't effect Wakes",
the card played much differently.