Becoming of Ennoia Q

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Becoming of Ennoia

Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase. Requires at
least two other Gehenna cards controlled by other Methuselahs in play.
During each Methuselah`s untap phase, he or she chooses a ready vampire
he or she controls. The chosen vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage.
Playing Earth Meld costs 2 additional blood.


This is not a rules question pre se. More of a game development
question.

Why was it decided that "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards
controlled by OTHER Methuselahs in play."

With the condition above, it will never be played unless two other
players decide to play with Gehenna cards. To me, this card is not that
powerful. Wouldn't stating "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards
in play." be enough?

Just thinking about the thoughts behind this card.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<adam.hulse@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115057117.754301.67440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Becoming of Ennoia
....
> This is not a rules question pre se. More of a game development
> question.
>
> Why was it decided that "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards
> controlled by OTHER Methuselahs in play."
>
> With the condition above, it will never be played unless two other
> players decide to play with Gehenna cards.

....meaning it's far too unlikely to be useful because the incidence
of use of Gehenna cards by players in general is far too small for
this to ever see the light of day in any but a very small percentage
of games if you should put it in your deck. In short, it can't be
played enough to possibly be worth the opportunity cost of putting
it in your deck - even if it gave you some kind of distinct advantage,
which it doesn't.

In short, you're right. (Unless I'm missing something.) It looks to
me like a terrible card.

(Possible rivaling Peter's *WORST* *CARD* *EVER*. 8-[ )

Fred

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

adam.hu...@gmail.com wrote:

> Why was it decided that "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards
> controlled by OTHER Methuselahs in play."
>
> With the condition above, it will never be played unless two other
> players decide to play with Gehenna cards. To me, this card is not
that
> powerful.

Unless some interesting non-event Gehenna cards are printed (and/or a
way to give another Methuselah control of a Gehenna card) this card
will have a hard time being considered for a deck slot. However, it
only requires that 2 other Gehenna cards be in play controlled by other
Methuselahs (they can be controlled by the same 'other Methuselah') not
'at least 2 other Methuselahs' like your imagining.


Robert Scythe

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Even still, the eventuality that this card would even see play is still
very, very low, unless there are many, many Event decks in your
playgroup. Most that I have seen that even use events only use one per
deck, and that's a very small percentage of the decks that I've seen.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Daneel wrote:
> On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:24:59 +0200, reyda <true_reyda@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > maybe theplaytesters have discovered something we ignore about the
> > usefulness of Becomins of ennoia ?
>
> Other than the fact that they were testing a set heavily focusing on
> Gehenna Events, and probably had a bunch of those in their decks?

>
> --
> Bye,
>
> Daneel

It's possible that it was developed specifically to combat Advanced
Beckett/Earth Meld decks?

Dunno.

John

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

jnewquist@difsol.com wrote:
| Daneel wrote:
|>On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:24:59 +0200, reyda <true_reyda@hotmail.com>
|
|>>maybe theplaytesters have discovered something we ignore about the
|>>usefulness of Becomins of ennoia ?
|>
|>Other than the fact that they were testing a set heavily focusing on
|> Gehenna Events, and probably had a bunch of those in their decks?
|
| It's possible that it was developed specifically to combat Advanced
| Beckett/Earth Meld decks?

Perhaps it's not the playtesters' job to spend time redesigning
obviously corner-case cards, and instead they choose to focus their
unpaid, spare-time effort on the (possibly-broken) cards in the set
which WILL see play?

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFCdqAYtQZlu3o7QpERAj33AKDO6T6qrP/Wy5hT9xSpUnYdyl2O+ACgouIF
M3twbP2pbcrhWJO4dJ9m3Eo=
=YckK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 2 May 2005 12:35:26 -0700, "mrjay1000" <mrjay1000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Even still, the eventuality that this card would even see play is still
>very, very low, unless there are many, many Event decks in your
>playgroup. Most that I have seen that even use events only use one per
>deck, and that's a very small percentage of the decks that I've seen.

I do agree that this card will almost never see play, though I can
report a different experience. There are few event decks around here,
but most of them use more than one event. The exceptions are regular
decks using a copy or two of Anthelios (fair common; I see one
Anthelios in play almost each table) or ally decks with Unmasking. The
rest are, for all purposes, Event decks, packing a few different ones.

But no matter how more common is to see Events popping up the table,
still nobody cares about Becoming of Ennoia. The main reason is not
the requirement but its effect. If only you could choose which vampire
controlled by your prey would have to deal with the unpreventable
damage - as with New Inquisition - but no, each player gets to choose
which vampire will be harmed.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V for Vendetta on the big screen!
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Althought a corner case card, I think that if it were easier to put
into play it would cause a lot of problems.

A damage is a damage, period. Against a weenie deck, Becoming becomes
even stronger, especially with Thirst in play. If they don't hunt they
burn blood - that weenie deck is going to run out of blood pretty
quickly.

If you can keep the weenies low on blood and they take unpreventable
damage then the vampires are going to torpor without much effect.

The following cards combined cause enough problems:

Dragonbound
New Inquisition
Restricted Vitae
Thirst
Torpid Blood

Then you add Becoming and it is worse.

They can't hunt unless forced to, vampires of 4-cap and lower have to
hunt or burn blood, New inquisition does the unpreventable damage to a
selected vampire.

If Becoming were added then it would be even harsher on the weenie set.

Now of course that is 5 events (6 with Becoming) in combination, but in
a deck designed around this concept, it shouldn't be too hard to pump
them out to the table. The added clause of Becoming is nothing special
(much like Veil of Darkness' added clause).

Perhaps they should have made it do not replace like Veil, but if all
of the event cards were do not replace then most hands would end up at
0 size.

D

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1115057117.754301.67440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
adam.hulse@gmail.com writes:
>With the condition above, it will never be played unless two other
>players decide to play with Gehenna cards.

.... or, for added corner-case value, you could play then yourself,
auction them off with a Malkavian Time Auction and then play Becoming!

I believe this is a strong tactic which is likely to win many games.

In other news: whurdle beep whurdle whurdle toot toot toot.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 02 May 2005 17:48:08 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> jnewquist@difsol.com wrote:
> | Daneel wrote:
> |>On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:24:59 +0200, reyda <true_reyda@hotmail.com>
> |
> |>>maybe theplaytesters have discovered something we ignore about the
> |>>usefulness of Becomins of ennoia ?
> |>
> |>Other than the fact that they were testing a set heavily focusing on
> |> Gehenna Events, and probably had a bunch of those in their decks?
> |
> | It's possible that it was developed specifically to combat Advanced
> | Beckett/Earth Meld decks?
>
> Perhaps it's not the playtesters' job to spend time redesigning
> obviously corner-case cards, and instead they choose to focus their
> unpaid, spare-time effort on the (possibly-broken) cards in the set
> which WILL see play?

If you were referring my post, I meant that Becoming of Ennoia could
have been actually useful during playtests, as the greater frequency
of Gehenna cards could have made its requirement far less severe. The
playtesters were testing the Gehenna Set after all, of which an
integral part was the Event mechanic (and the Gehenna cards).

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Daneel wrote:
| On Mon, 02 May 2005 17:48:08 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
|> Perhaps it's not the playtesters' job to spend time redesigning
|> obviously corner-case cards, and instead they choose to focus their
|> unpaid, spare-time effort on the (possibly-broken) cards in the set
|> which WILL see play?
|
| If you were referring my post, I meant that Becoming of Ennoia could

I was not.

I was addressing the tendency of many posters here (most of whom have
not been playtesters themselves) to blame the playtest process for cards
which appear at first glance to be wallpaper. Broken cards which slip
through playtest are significant mistakes on the testers' part;
wallpaper cards which slip through are another story entirely.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFCdq35tQZlu3o7QpERAq0QAJsFJjdPC6bDqAIRdZiDtbwsiyAyXACcD02j
XnLGgQ+jRTzzoQAgVwlLeQg=
=QxrJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

adam.hulse@gmail.com a écrit :
> Becoming of Ennoia
>
> Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase. Requires at
> least two other Gehenna cards controlled by other Methuselahs in play.
> During each Methuselah`s untap phase, he or she chooses a ready vampire
> he or she controls. The chosen vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage.
> Playing Earth Meld costs 2 additional blood.
>
>
> This is not a rules question pre se. More of a game development
> question.
>
> Why was it decided that "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards
> controlled by OTHER Methuselahs in play."
>
> With the condition above, it will never be played unless two other
> players decide to play with Gehenna cards. To me, this card is not that
> powerful. Wouldn't stating "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards
> in play." be enough?
>
> Just thinking about the thoughts behind this card.

This card seems like wallpaper, however...
interestingly enough, most gehenna intensive cards i see are packing
protean as their main discipline.
the proteans weenies are efficient for their cost, have a good array of
cards useful in combination with events like Torpid blood or blood weakens.

maybe theplaytesters have discovered something we ignore about the
usefulness of Becomins of ennoia ?
Anyway, it may be the sure way to beat the Unmasking/veil of darkness
Shadow court Satyr / earthmeld monstruosity !

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:24:59 +0200, reyda <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote:

> maybe theplaytesters have discovered something we ignore about the
> usefulness of Becomins of ennoia ?

Other than the fact that they were testing a set heavily focusing on
Gehenna Events, and probably had a bunch of those in their decks?

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Derek Ray wrote:
> Perhaps it's not the playtesters' job to spend time redesigning
> obviously corner-case cards,

Why? A Set with only corner-case cards is as bad as a set with a lot of
broken cards. It bans itself by being so bad ;-)

> and instead they choose to focus their

Choose their focus? I thought playtesters have a clear mission set by
the game developer? But on the other hand it has become quite around
playtesting, a lot of people who did it for a long time seem to have
quitted the job for various reasons.

> unpaid, spare-time effort

Would they have more time to fix corner-case cards if the effort was paid?

> on the (possibly-broken) cards in the set which WILL see play?

But every card (may it be corner case at first glance or not) has a
certain chance of being "broken" (whatever THAT means) in some weird
combination. And with all that cards out there a lot of combinations are
possible ...

--
johannes walch

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Johannes Walch wrote:
| Derek Ray wrote:
|
|> Perhaps it's not the playtesters' job to spend time redesigning
|> obviously corner-case cards,
|
| Why? A Set with only corner-case cards is as bad as a set with a lot of
| broken cards. It bans itself by being so bad ;-)

First priority: find and fix broken cards.
Second priority: find and fix useless cards.

In my experience, we never ran out of cards in set #1. We typically
flagged useless cards when we saw them... preferably with a comparative
statement like "Lucky Blow is always better than this", so that it made
some sense. (for Channeling the Beast, say.) But honestly, something
like Becoming of Ennoia seeing print is just so, so unimportant in the
grand scheme. It's one card. It poops on itself by existing. But it
can never poop on anything other than itself, unlike broken cards, which
can throw the game all to hell and back.

|> and instead they choose to focus their
|
| Choose their focus? I thought playtesters have a clear mission set by
| the game developer? But on the other hand it has become quite around
| playtesting, a lot of people who did it for a long time seem to have
| quitted the job for various reasons.

Of course they have a mission set: "Play these new cards and see how
they do." From there, they can focus on whatever they want. Their
choices will determine whether or not they are considered for future
playtesting, and whether or not their comments are taken seriously by
the designer.

Four pages' worth of redesign on Becoming of Ennoia, while letting other
obviously-broken cards get through unmentioned, is likely to indicate
that the testing group in question either doesn't have a very good
capacity for value judgement, doesn't understand their role (test, not
design), or didn't spend any time actually playing the cards.

|> unpaid, spare-time effort
|
| Would they have more time to fix corner-case cards if the effort was paid?

I'm willing to bet they'd spend more of their spare time doing it. So
yes, after a fashion.

|> on the (possibly-broken) cards in the set which WILL see play?
|
| But every card (may it be corner case at first glance or not) has a
| certain chance of being "broken" (whatever THAT means) in some weird
| combination. And with all that cards out there a lot of combinations are
| possible ...

Sure. This is why every card should be played... you know, PLAYtesting.
~ But it's easy to look at Becoming of Ennoia and say "This card relies
on other players playing a specific deck with specific cards in it, and
even then doesn't have much of an effect -- this card will never be
broken the way (insert recently errata'd card name) was and it can
barely be used, let's write that down and then go look at Recalled to
the Founder again."

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFCdqyPtQZlu3o7QpERAtMTAKDM0lGs8hCIKDyEfl30ExOhBgvZrACfe3DS
TOR6MzfHO841zlJU+wcNnVQ=
=Yhtc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Agree that it is decent a weenie decks, but like said before, another
person has to play 2 other Gehenna cards (or two other players to play
one Gehenna each) for it to be played.

It is the only Gehenna card to do this, and I don't think it is that
good to warrant such a restriction.

If LSJ or some the testers are reading this, the way to errata this is
just to say "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards in play."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"quetzalcoatl" <david@vega.id.au> schreef in bericht
news:1115088068.452889.86450@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Althought a corner case card, I think that if it were easier to put
> into play it would cause a lot of problems.
>
> A damage is a damage, period. Against a weenie deck, Becoming becomes
> even stronger, especially with Thirst in play. If they don't hunt they
> burn blood - that weenie deck is going to run out of blood pretty
> quickly.
>
> If you can keep the weenies low on blood and they take unpreventable
> damage then the vampires are going to torpor without much effect.
>
> The following cards combined cause enough problems:
>
> Dragonbound
> New Inquisition
> Restricted Vitae
> Thirst
> Torpid Blood
>
> Then you add Becoming and it is worse.
>
> They can't hunt unless forced to, vampires of 4-cap and lower have to
> hunt or burn blood, New inquisition does the unpreventable damage to a
> selected vampire.
>
> If Becoming were added then it would be even harsher on the weenie set.
>
How dare they make a 6 Gehenna card combo that kills weenie decks. We all
know how much help those need *roll eyes smiley*

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LOL ... I know in and of itself it isn't a winner, however it has a lot
more uses.

1. a blood theft type deck using Francois and Kyoko and Hesha (using
Restricted Vitae for Hesha)
- this is a favourite since Kyoko I believe is then allowed to hunt
twice (actual details left to your determination)
- single point of damage from New Inquisition could do a lot here,
combined with Dragonbound nasty.
2. an Edged Illusions combined with the weenie event cards
3. a Marissa Fletcher deck that gets vampires low/zero blood and burns
them on a hunt

there are others.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Pretty cool... but you forgot to add the card that makes other
Methuselahs play with gehenna event cards.


quetzalcoatl wrote:
> LOL ... I know in and of itself it isn't a winner, however it has a
lot
> more uses.
>
> 1. a blood theft type deck using Francois and Kyoko and Hesha (using
> Restricted Vitae for Hesha)
> - this is a favourite since Kyoko I believe is then allowed to hunt
> twice (actual details left to your determination)
> - single point of damage from New Inquisition could do a lot here,
> combined with Dragonbound nasty.
> 2. an Edged Illusions combined with the weenie event cards
> 3. a Marissa Fletcher deck that gets vampires low/zero blood and
burns
> them on a hunt
>
> there are others.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

adam.hu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Pretty cool... but you forgot to add the card that makes other
> Methuselahs play with gehenna event cards.
>
>

There are a couple of ways for them to be able to use the cards, but
convincing them to play them for you is another matter.

Erycies Fragment ... discard your Gehenna Cards and let someone take
them via that. Tournament legal and all. Just have to make a deal that
they will play them for you. I don't see it viable in a tournament
though.

Succubus Club (social play only).

Hmmm can't think of others right now.

But it doesn't MAKE them If only I could

Just like I want to play Legacy of Caine on my own vampires, or somehow
give control of Jacob the Glitch to my prey without there having to be
an agreement.

David