Clarification of after-combat effects canceling one another

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[Not necessarily LSJ but anyone who wants to take a stab
at helping me, here.]

Certain combat cards create effects that are resolved after
combat: Catatonic Fear's point of damage, Majesty's untap,
Psyche!'s restarted combat, Illusion of the Kindred's and
Blissful Agony's new combat, etc. I recall that if there's
more than one of these, at times (at all times?), only one
takes effect and the others are canceled out.

I can never remember how this works, exactly. I would be
grateful is someone could explain this to me in as
succinct and simple (but complete) a way as possible so
I can have a chance of getting it into my head for good.
(And explaining it to less-connected players so they
get it right, too.)

There's also the issue of "after the action resolves"
effects for actions (e.g. Force of Will's aggravated
damage), action modifiers (Hidden Lurker), and reactions
(Fast Reaction) as well. I believe these aren't affected
adversely by combat cards which cause extra-combat effects
but if they are, please explain how that works, too.

Thanks,

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:ZSwde.3031$7F4.143@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > Frederick Scott wrote:
> >> Certain combat cards create effects that are resolved after
> >> combat: Catatonic Fear's point of damage, Majesty's untap,
> >> Psyche!'s restarted combat, Illusion of the Kindred's and
> >> Blissful Agony's new combat, etc. I recall that if there's
> >> more than one of these, at times (at all times?), only one
> >> takes effect and the others are canceled out.
> >
> > Majesty's untap (and other untaps) resolves before combat ends.
>
> So an untap effect - as opposed to something else like superior
> Catatonic Fear's point of damage - from a combat card always
> happens?

Not necessarily.

Majesty's effect at superior is "As above [strike: combat ends], and
this vampire untaps before combat ends." The reason why the vampire
untaps after playing superior Majesty (or Earth Meld, or any other card
that uses the above wording), regardless of what's queued to happen
after combat, is that the vampire untaps during the combat.

John Eno

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:

> [Not necessarily LSJ but anyone who wants to take a stab
> at helping me, here.]
>
> Certain combat cards create effects that are resolved after
> combat: Catatonic Fear's point of damage, Majesty's untap,
> Psyche!'s restarted combat, Illusion of the Kindred's and
> Blissful Agony's new combat, etc. I recall that if there's
> more than one of these, at times (at all times?), only one
> takes effect and the others are canceled out.

Majesty's untap (and other untaps) resolves before combat ends.

If any "end combat and do X" effect is interrupted at the
"end of combat" stage with something sufficiently disruptive,
namely combat or diablerie, then the "do X" portion is lost.

> I can never remember how this works, exactly. I would be
> grateful is someone could explain this to me in as
> succinct and simple (but complete) a way as possible so
> I can have a chance of getting it into my head for good.
> (And explaining it to less-connected players so they
> get it right, too.)

Hopefully the above works.

And also note that once a combat is queued to start, no
other combats may be queued. (You cannot interrupt a Psyche!
with another Psyche!, for example.)

> There's also the issue of "after the action resolves"
> effects for actions (e.g. Force of Will's aggravated
> damage), action modifiers (Hidden Lurker), and reactions
> (Fast Reaction) as well. I believe these aren't affected
> adversely by combat cards which cause extra-combat effects
> but if they are, please explain how that works, too.

They are not, correct.

HL and FR are not "after action resolves", though. They're
other "after combat" effects.

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"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:ZSwde.3031$7F4.143@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> Certain combat cards create effects that are resolved after
>> combat: Catatonic Fear's point of damage, Majesty's untap,
>> Psyche!'s restarted combat, Illusion of the Kindred's and
>> Blissful Agony's new combat, etc. I recall that if there's
>> more than one of these, at times (at all times?), only one
>> takes effect and the others are canceled out.
>
> Majesty's untap (and other untaps) resolves before combat ends.

So an untap effect - as opposed to something else like superior
Catatonic Fear's point of damage - from a combat card always
happens?

> If any "end combat and do X" effect is interrupted at the
> "end of combat" stage with something sufficiently disruptive,
> namely combat or diablerie, then the "do X" portion is lost.
....
> And also note that once a combat is queued to start, no
> other combats may be queued. (You cannot interrupt a Psyche!
> with another Psyche!, for example.)

So a Psyche! could also not be played if Illusions of the
Kindred has already been played?

Actually, this last thing clarifies a lot. Most of the "end
combat and do X" things I can think of are things that queue
combat. The only thing in the third category (not untap
effect and not queuing a combat) I remember right off hand
is Catatonic Fear.

I can't think of how to interrupt anything with Diablerie
at all. Amaranth can always be played if one's opponent is
going to torpor but what could it interrupt?

Fred

 

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On Mon, 2 May 2005 13:07:08 -0700, Frederick Scott
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:

> [Not necessarily LSJ but anyone who wants to take a stab
> at helping me, here.]

I'll do the stabbing. I don't even remotely promise to be
completely right, but I'll try (if for nothing else, than
to test my own knowledge).

> Certain combat cards create effects that are resolved after
> combat: Catatonic Fear's point of damage, Majesty's untap,

Okay, Majesty untaps right when the card resolves. The rest
are good examples.

> Psyche!'s restarted combat, Illusion of the Kindred's and
> Blissful Agony's new combat, etc. I recall that if there's
> more than one of these, at times (at all times?), only one
> takes effect and the others are canceled out.
>
> I can never remember how this works, exactly. I would be
> grateful is someone could explain this to me in as
> succinct and simple (but complete) a way as possible so
> I can have a chance of getting it into my head for good.
> (And explaining it to less-connected players so they
> get it right, too.)

Okay. Most of these effects are along the lines of "Combat
Ends and XXX". So assuming that combat has ended prematurely
due to such an effect (and not one combatant going into
torpor, for instance):

1. Combat is about to end.
Telepathic Tracking. When played, the combat is elongerated
and any queued effects are ignored (lost). Works all the time.

2. Combat just ended.
Psyche!. Cannot be played if the combat was ended by an effect
that already queued another combat (like Illusion of the
Kindred or Blissfull Agony). Otherwise, it starts a new combat,
and like in case #1, any queued effects are lost.

3. Combat has ended for good.
Any queued effects take place. Generally these effects will not
contradict one another. Two Catatonic Fears simply mean that
both combatants take a point of damage, etc. Any lurking is to
be carried out now (detailed below).

> There's also the issue of "after the action resolves"
> effects for actions (e.g. Force of Will's aggravated
> damage), action modifiers (Hidden Lurker), and reactions
> (Fast Reaction) as well. I believe these aren't affected
> adversely by combat cards which cause extra-combat effects
> but if they are, please explain how that works, too.

If the end of the combat was also the end of the action, then end
of the action stuff also happens (after a short while). Like,
Force of Will's aggravated damage. As for lurking, they happen
during phase #3.

3.a. Combat has ended for good, really.
Acting minion's controller may now Lurk using cards like Hidden
Lurker or Follow the Alpha. The new combat is technically
considered to be part of the action, but the minion in combat
is no longer acting (e.g. action cannot be continued with Form
of Mist).

3.b. Combat has ended for good, really now.
If the acting minion's controller chooses not to lurk, the
blocking minion's controller may now choose to react in a fast
manner. Fast Reaction creates a new combat which is not a result
of a block.

LSJ?

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> schreef in bericht
news:Gexde.7710$ye1.1941@okepread06...
>
> "LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:ZSwde.3031$7F4.143@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> Frederick Scott wrote:
>
> Actually, this last thing clarifies a lot. Most of the "end
> combat and do X" things I can think of are things that queue
> combat. The only thing in the third category (not untap
> effect and not queuing a combat) I remember right off hand
> is Catatonic Fear.

You forgot the big one: Rötschreck

 

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"Jeroen Rombouts" <jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote
in message news:%Wyde.79733$a42.5091422@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> schreef in bericht
> news:Gexde.7710$ye1.1941@okepread06...
>> Actually, this last thing clarifies a lot. Most of the "end
>> combat and do X" things I can think of are things that queue
>> combat. The only thing in the third category (not untap
>> effect and not queuing a combat) I remember right off hand
>> is Catatonic Fear.
>
> You forgot the big one: Rötschreck

I understand that any time a vampire is put into torpor, the
combat ends. But I'm not sure I see how Rötschreck is any
different from a vampire suffering from unprevented
aggravated damage or something like Coma.

What difference does it make?

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Jeroen Rombouts" <jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote
> in message news:%Wyde.79733$a42.5091422@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
>>"Frederick Scott" <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> schreef in bericht
>>news:Gexde.7710$ye1.1941@okepread06...
>>
>>>Actually, this last thing clarifies a lot. Most of the "end
>>>combat and do X" things I can think of are things that queue
>>>combat. The only thing in the third category (not untap
>>>effect and not queuing a combat) I remember right off hand
>>>is Catatonic Fear.
>>
>>You forgot the big one: Rötschreck
>
>
> I understand that any time a vampire is put into torpor, the
> combat ends. But I'm not sure I see how Rötschreck is any
> different from a vampire suffering from unprevented
> aggravated damage or something like Coma.
>
> What difference does it make?

It's not a difference; he's just pointing out that Rotschreck is a
"combat ends and do something else" card. In this case: combat ends and
put the vampire in torpor. That's significant, because it means Psyche!
and Telepathic Tracking can interrupt the "go to torpor" effect, which
they can't do if you're going to torpor from a Coma.

--Colin McGuigan

 

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"Colin McGuigan" <maguaSPAM@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in
message newsrCdnVLVYZnFQevfRVn-jA@speakeasy.net...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>>>You forgot the big one: Rötschreck
>>
>> I understand that any time a vampire is put into torpor, the
>> combat ends. But I'm not sure I see how Rötschreck is any
>> different from a vampire suffering from unprevented
>> aggravated damage or something like Coma.
>>
>> What difference does it make?
>
> It's not a difference; he's just pointing out that Rotschreck is a
> "combat ends and do something else" card. In this case: combat ends and
> put the vampire in torpor. That's significant, because it means Psyche!
> and Telepathic Tracking can interrupt the "go to torpor" effect, which
> they can't do if you're going to torpor from a Coma.

(*boggle*) I must have tuned out or totally forgotten a rules thread
here. So the victim (or his still-ready opponent, for what it's worth)
can cancel the effects of Rötschreck by playing Psyche! or Telepathic
Tracking afterwards?!?

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> (*boggle*) I must have tuned out or totally forgotten a rules thread
> here. So the victim (or his still-ready opponent, for what it's worth)
> can cancel the effects of Rötschreck by playing Psyche! or Telepathic
> Tracking afterwards?!?

They can cancel the "go to torpor" effect. The "put this card on this
vampire" effect (and subsequent not untapping during your next untap)
isn't cancelled, since it comes before the ending of combat.

--Colin McGuigan

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:ZSwde.3031$7F4.143@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>Frederick Scott wrote:
>>
>>>Certain combat cards create effects that are resolved after
>>>combat: Catatonic Fear's point of damage, Majesty's untap,
>>>Psyche!'s restarted combat, Illusion of the Kindred's and
>>>Blissful Agony's new combat, etc. I recall that if there's
>>>more than one of these, at times (at all times?), only one
>>>takes effect and the others are canceled out.
>>
>>Majesty's untap (and other untaps) resolves before combat ends.
>
> So an untap effect - as opposed to something else like superior
> Catatonic Fear's point of damage - from a combat card always
> happens?

For the S:CE and untap effects, yes, due to the way that they
are worded / ruled.

>>If any "end combat and do X" effect is interrupted at the
>>"end of combat" stage with something sufficiently disruptive,
>>namely combat or diablerie, then the "do X" portion is lost.
>
> ....
>
>>And also note that once a combat is queued to start, no
>>other combats may be queued. (You cannot interrupt a Psyche!
>>with another Psyche!, for example.)
>
>
> So a Psyche! could also not be played if Illusions of the
> Kindred has already been played?

Correct.

> Actually, this last thing clarifies a lot. Most of the "end
> combat and do X" things I can think of are things that queue
> combat. The only thing in the third category (not untap
> effect and not queuing a combat) I remember right off hand
> is Catatonic Fear.

Rotschreck, as mentioned in another response.

Form of Mist (end combat and continue), which was the
granddaddy of the "Psyche! is disruptive enough to cancel
the other part of the effect" ruling.

> I can't think of how to interrupt anything with Diablerie
> at all. Amaranth can always be played if one's opponent is
> going to torpor but what could it interrupt?

Form of Mist's continuance (you'd need things like additional
strikes and Disarm to accomplish this, but there you go).

--
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Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
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OK, thanks the help, folks!

Sadly :-{ it may be a long time if ever before I get everything
memorized having to do with after-combat effects. However, at
least now I have a set of posts that appear (at least for now)
to be comprehensive which I can staple to my forehead when I know
I'm going to need to have the knowledge at hand.

Fred

 

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"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> schreef in bericht
news:HABde.3190$7F4.2193@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

>
>> Actually, this last thing clarifies a lot. Most of the "end
>> combat and do X" things I can think of are things that queue
>> combat. The only thing in the third category (not untap
>> effect and not queuing a combat) I remember right off hand
>> is Catatonic Fear.
>
> Rotschreck, as mentioned in another response.
>
> Form of Mist (end combat and continue), which was the
> granddaddy of the "Psyche! is disruptive enough to cancel
> the other part of the effect" ruling.
>

another thing I'd like clarified. Flash Grenade doesn't follow the End
Combat and do X, right? So the 'tap and doesn't untap' effect is what in
James's post was called a lingering effect. correct?


and another strange thing we noticed: playing canine hordes or fast hands on
a Flash Grenade has absolutely no effect, because even with the first strike
the combat ends effect resolves first. correct?

 

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In message <o5Cde.7741$ye1.7494@okepread06>, Frederick Scott
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> writes:
>(*boggle*) I must have tuned out or totally forgotten a rules thread
>here.

http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR512.txt - 1st May 2002.

Three points which tell you everything you need to know:

Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat
(all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if
combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started. (Changes:
Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or Psyche! will nullify the
torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to end combat and
untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after combat
(see Majesty ruling above).

That is, if something is in the process of resolving and you interrupt
it, everything else is lost. Whilst a general ruling, it has the handy
side-effect of toning down Rotschreck somewhat with commonly accessible
and playable cards.

If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later
(e.g., Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's
combat), then the effect will not be canceled by "interruptions"
(extending combat/starting combat/etc.).

That is, if a lingering effect has been set up, it WILL happen (assuming
the conditions are met, if any).

This one is easy to remember if you understand the analogous situation
of playing Weather Control and then tapping Elysium: The Arboretum - you
don't just get rid of the Weather Control damage. The damage from
Weather Control (which doesn't resolve when it is played, but sets up a
lingering effect) must happen. The card has already resolved creating
the lingering effect, so it just waits, and waits, and waits.

An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if
there is already a "to be resolved later" combat.

Only one combat can be queued at a time (e.g. Siren's Lure). This is
simply to keep complexity down.

--
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Jeroen Rombouts wrote:
> another thing I'd like clarified. Flash Grenade doesn't follow the End
> Combat and do X, right? So the 'tap and doesn't untap' effect is what in
> James's post was called a lingering effect. correct?

No. It is an end combat and do something else effect. The tap and stuff
won't apply if interrupted (although the grenade will still be burned
after use -- a lingering effect).

> and another strange thing we noticed: playing canine hordes or fast hands on
> a Flash Grenade has absolutely no effect, because even with the first strike
> the combat ends effect resolves first. correct?

Assuming the opposing minion struck with the grenade, yes.

--
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LSJ a écrit :
> Jeroen Rombouts wrote:
>
>> another thing I'd like clarified. Flash Grenade doesn't follow the
>> End Combat and do X, right? So the 'tap and doesn't untap' effect is
>> what in James's post was called a lingering effect. correct?
>
>
> No. It is an end combat and do something else effect. The tap and stuff
> won't apply if interrupted (although the grenade will still be burned
> after use -- a lingering effect).

just to be sure : according to the latest rulings, if i dodge the flash
grenade strike, i won't suffer the tapping effect fom the grenade ,
right ?

 

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reyda wrote:
> just to be sure : according to the latest rulings, if i dodge the flash
> grenade strike, i won't suffer the tapping effect fom the grenade ,
> right ?

?

Dodge protects the dodger, yes.

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In message <zxFde.79869$4q2.5016689@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, Jeroen
Rombouts <jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> writes:
>another thing I'd like clarified. Flash Grenade doesn't follow the End
>Combat and do X, right? So the 'tap and doesn't untap' effect is what in
>James's post was called a lingering effect. correct?

Lingering effects, to use my term, are those which are set up earlier
and which trigger later. They don't just disappear.

Combat ends and untap happens when it happens and, unlike most other
combat ends plus foo effects, can't be interrupted by something
sufficiently disruptive.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/