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PC Gamer benches the R9800.

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
April 5, 2003 1:55:11 PM

Sorry if stuff like this was posted earlier!

-All tests done on a P4 3Ghz, 512megs ram

3DMark2001:
R9800-16,987
FX5800U-15,784

3DMark2003:
R9800-5,295
FX5800U-4,997

Quake3 at 1600X1200,4XAA:
R9800-115fps
FX5800U-100fps

Quake3 at 1600X1200,noAA:
R9800-204fps
FX5800U-229fps

UT2K3 at 1600X1200,4XAA:
R9800-79fps
FX5800U-90fps

UT2K3 at 1600X1200,noAA:
R9800-121fps
FX5800U-133fps

Hmmm, so the Radeon9800 is superior in 3DMark, and when Anti Aliasing is enabled by a quite a bit. But, the FX wins by a couple frames at no AA. Exactly what I thought would happen. Do you guys think the FX is better at raw games because of its higher clock speed?


-Why can't we just challenge Saddam and his cronies to a LAN war?-

More about : gamer benches r9800

April 5, 2003 2:13:16 PM

There are two reasons why one should wait for the nv35 announcement in May and the availability in June:

1) the nv35 is a severly revised and optimized version of the GF FX 5800 Ultra and should beat the Radeon 9800 Pro without any problems (probably even in AA/FA modes since the nv35 offers much more bandwidth than the GF FX)

2) By the time the nv35 ships in June, the performance of the card will be much more improved (same for the GF FX) because nvidia will have had time to optimize their drivers which still are quite new for the GF FX. As one can see everywhere, the performance of the GF FX depends much on the driver version used. The upcoming 5x.xx driver series is rumored to offer advanced performance and image quality then the current 4x.xx drivers.

And finally the price won't be much higher than the initial release price of the GF FX 5800 Ultra (maybe even less) because of the use of less layers (4 to be precise) and the use of cheaper 256-bit DDR I RAM. In fact, one can even expect that the Radeon 9800 with DDR II RAM will be more expensive than the upcoming nv35...
April 5, 2003 4:27:45 PM

Aha it's vacs again. I was wondering where your pr propaganda crap had gone after the gejunk fx was released. I also remember all the "wait for the fx" crap you posted around here. And now you're spewing out more again. And if you want quote on your own pr crap i can provide that as well
Quote:"The upcoming 5x.xx driver series is rumored to offer advanced performance and image quality then the current 4x.xx drivers"
And to make the discussion short. WHQL!!
And aren't you going to praise the fx as you did before it was released?
This isn't a personal attack if anyone thinks so. But i remember this guy specifically how he argued the glory of the fx and how it would crush ati and everything they can bring. He also said that raw bandwith didn't matter on the fx since it's LMA-tech is sooo advanced. Yeah, that's why they doubled the raw bus now.
Anymore PR junk coming?
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April 5, 2003 4:39:19 PM

two things:
AMD fans always come with "MHz is not everything"
ATI fans now come with "WHQL" where in fact it doesn't mean that much since even the "WHQLed" Catalyst 3.2 crash Half-Life in OpenGL! So WTF.

All those MHz and WHQL stories are only about marketing, giving people who for the most part don't know what they are talking about (not necessary meant for you Unit01), something easy to defend their beloved company. As I said we know now all since this year that WHQL drivers crash and that 1.6GHz Centrinos beat 2200+ XPs and 2.2GHz P4s. Don't come with that now or have you forgotten about the ATI quake3 cheat in previous drivers?

Back to the FX, indeed I was wrong with initial 5800 FX performance, guess nobody really could predict that the dustblaster will be a that big disappointment. But, this is not due to the nv30 architecture but simply because nvidia didn't get their card under control (0.13 manufacturing process, heat dissipation, expensive DDR II).
Although I really can't recommend anyone to buy a 5800 Ultra, I fully stay behind my statement that the architecture itself is very powerful and that it will be unleashed with the help of the nv35. Just look at the comment of one STALKER developper to confirm that the nv35 is significally faster than ATI's current offerings.

Again, the 5800 Ultra is a failure for sure (although not in all ways, e.g. Quadro FX) but the nv3x architecture will have a great future, there's no doubt about it!
April 5, 2003 5:28:50 PM

Thanks for the quick reply vacs. Reason i mention this is cause it can become good and fun to discuss things. But it's kind of hard when one is almost a non-paid lacey to a company whether be it nvidia or ati. I'm in this all for my knowledge and my stand as a consumer to make good decisions in purchasing and try helping others with it as well. Think about it. Isn't it better to discuss and evaluate then bringing up old arguments to try and defend a company?
You choose yourself how you want to post and respond on boards. That's not my decision. But you consider this a little if possible what you would like to do on this board. Would be quite fun for me for a change to actually have some discussions here on THG.
Laters
a b U Graphics card
April 5, 2003 7:38:12 PM

Quote:
the nv35 announcement in May and the availability in June

So VACS is that May and June on 2004 or 2005. They may 'announce' in May, but I doubt most people will see them in stores before August, if then.

And while you're waiting, might as well wait for the R9800pro-256mb, or even BETTER YET wait for the R400 or you could then wait for the R456 core I hear it will support 4 Gigs of DDR4 memory and be treanparent glow in the dark pcb.
Or you could wait for the Matrox Paraplegic it's D9.99 and use it's own plutonium core.

You could always be waiting for Guffman, but best get the card that makes you relatively 'future proof' now. My suggestion get a cheap R9700Pro/9500P and then wait for a DX10 core.
As for the NV35, I wouldn't bet on it being anywhere near a store in June except as promotional poster. If you're willing to wait for the NV35, I guess you're still waiting for the P10.

Each series will have it's strengths, none dominates all things, however I still haven't seen a good reason to block a pci slot with a dustbuster-collector (how do you clean that thing?)

So either you can wait for the thing that is always on the horizon, like the Clawhammer, get the best technology you can get now at the cheapest price. The NV35 isn't a revolutionary core like the R9700 or FX were, so anyting DX9 will do for now, and by the time it "ain't good enough" you can sell itand buy that new core when it's actually on a shelf somewhere.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
a b U Graphics card
April 5, 2003 7:48:54 PM

Quote:
Just look at the comment of one STALKER developper to confirm that the nv35 is significally faster than ATI's current offerings.

Vacs do you know why the STALKER developers are so PRO NVIDIA? Because NVIDIA is as imbedded in their development chain (read give money and unlimited tech support/hardware) as a reporter in Iraq. The reality is that there is no one who is not directly in Nvidia's "How it shoudl be played" stable who would endorse NVidia over ATI right now. They will all say the technology has potential but most will simply comment on Nvidia's shortcoming and the fact that they have to code for Nvidia's 'issues' to make it play better on Nvidia cards, at the price of performance on most other cards, to bring their perormance down to Nvidia's level.
My wish, that Matrox, Creative, or SiS bring something to market that really makes it a competition and then maybe people will code for ALL cards, and we will see the true failures of each architecture, not just the crappy payed-off optimizations for one card maker.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
April 6, 2003 6:22:27 AM

Wait for the NV35? I thought we just finished waiting for the NV30. It sucks.

No more waiting.

<font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red>
April 6, 2003 7:48:04 AM

Waiting is not for everyone, but it is for me. I grant, I did wait for the FX, and was rather dissapointed, but I can wait longer. I can always fall back on a 9800 pro or whatever.

One mans throw-away is another mans god-box. Help friends in need, I always do!!
Then again, having extra parts are great for making dedicated servers for LAN parties!!!!
April 6, 2003 7:52:49 AM

Quote:
Vacs do you know why the STALKER developers are so PRO NVIDIA? Because NVIDIA is as imbedded in their development chain (read give money and unlimited tech support/hardware) as a reporter in Iraq.

yes, and do you know why nvidia is so embedded in the development of STALKER? That's because ATI didn't care at all about STALKER when the STALKER team asked ATI to get support from them. They totally ignored the STALKER team.

To confirm, I'm not totally pro nvidia, in fact anyone who asks me what graphiccard he should buy at the moment, I will respond with Radeon 9x000. They are the cheapest, the best performing (even in AA/AF modes) and offer the best image quality... Unit01, don't expect nvidia to do nothing against it. That would be too ignorant. May 2003 will be the date.

If you want an excellent 3dcard now, go for ATI. If you want to purchase one during the summer... well things can change quite fast in a few months.
April 6, 2003 8:15:11 AM

Quote:
If you want an excellent 3dcard now, go for ATI. If you want to purchase one during the summer... well things can change quite fast in a few months.


Sweet. Common ground. Amen.

<font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red>
April 6, 2003 9:46:22 AM

I was hoping i didn't have to respond to more NV PR stuff. Ah well, here i go. vacs use some logic here now. No more of this loyalty to nvidia stuff. If ATI didn't respond. Then stalker wouldn't function at all on any ati card since they wouldn't have been able to develop on ati card. And cutting potential sales in HALF isn't very smart from a developers point of view now is it. That statement was made from money "donated" by Nvidia. Another part of their marketing campaign.

Here's a quote from the developers that's making stalker
"We use all hardware for development of Stalker, although most are NVIDIA. We will produce a game with the best quality, compatibility, and performance on all supported hardware (T&L or better).
Here are the general things. As a programmer, I need to get access to the latest hardware and talk to it's manufacturers, otherwise we may get way behind the competition. I want to give credit to NVIDIA for agreeing to be our technical partner and render us this kind of assistance (we contacted NVIDIA and ATI for several months, but ATI did not respond). NVIDIA offers me early hardware and very good support. Prior to GeForceFX I worked with Radeon 9700 but I am currently developing the Stalker engine on NV35. Naturally, such close work with NVIDIA engineers allows me to come up with better optimizations and support the new technologies of NVIDIA boards.

In Stalker you'll be able to play fine on NVIDIA and ATI hardware--the gameplay and run stability should be the same. On ATI boards Stalker will run fast, but on NVIDIA boards it will run even faster, plus gamers will get a set of unique effects, namely due to close work with the company enginers and support of NVIDIA hardware features.
"
And don't try to get started on some propaganda thing with that it will play faster with nv hardware. That means either 12INT or 16FP. None of which corresponds to the DX9 standard which this game is. Yet they can make a separate path for the card and call it optimization, that wouldn't make it non-DX9 totally.
And if you want more proof, here are some links
http://www.3dgpu.com/comments.php?id=2307&category=9
http://www.3dgpu.com/comments.php?id=2283&category=9
And now vacs can you cut down on the nvidia PR bullshit?
April 6, 2003 10:05:39 AM

So how many games are being developed with DX9 in mind?... ahh.. and umm how many of those games are being released in may? im sure only a handfull. there is a saying "good things come to those who wait". I myself had owned a 9700 pro and have had nothing but stability issues since day one. I recently sold it and bought a TI4600 8x and have not had a single problem yet so far. slower card?? yes.. without a doubt.. but hey guess what? now i can play my games without haveing my computer shut off every 20 min. and no its not a hardware issue or my PSU is to small blah blah blah.. I guess all im saying is by the time games are that far advanced to where my current DX8 card is out of date and i can no longer play a game without consistant lag im sure BOTH card manufacteres will have something better on the market. Nvidia to revise their current dustbuster and space heater, and ATI to work out all their damn bugs. june is only 3 months away im sure ANY graphics card on the market right now will play all games released in the next couple of months. so in reality no you dont have to be impatient and jump on the next "hot product" that ATI releases because you will get an extra 10 FPS in some games.
April 6, 2003 4:55:22 PM

Point taken. Though...I am building my new box and it would be a shame not to give it a 9800pro...speaking of which, anyone know where to get one? Or is doing the pre-order thing with Ati your best shot? Keep up the discussion!!

"Do or do not. There is no try."

-Who else but Yoda could utter such wisdom?
April 6, 2003 5:36:47 PM

I found my 9800 Pro at Fry' of all places...last week...

I got lucky though...cause the manager of the department wasn't going to put them on the shelf...cause he only recieved 3...but he heard me helping some customers with a tech support issue that none of his in store guys knew anything about...and he overheard me stating that I was there looking for the 9800 Pro..so he pulled one of the 3 from the back..and sold it to me... Yay Me!

Anyhooo...I have been a die hard Nvidia fan for freaking years...I've owned every generation of Nvidia since TNT 1...

But now...I've lost it with Nvidia...I really honestly feel Nvidia has let its consumers down...

They tried to come out with this "Monster" Nv30 and it has never really made it out...

I feel they did this to attempt to totally crush ATI in the market...by producing this powerhouse NV30...but it backfired in their face...

The technology is too advanced and has not been researched enough yet...so what do they do...they scrap it...and tell us to wait for NV35...

Well I don't wanna wait anymore...my best friend has been running a Radeon 9700 Pro for several weeks now...and I love playing on his rig...

The instability issues I've seen with ATI seem to be overcomeable and mostly related to other system components not being accomodating to ATI...

Most of all though...I'm just really fed up with Nvidia's heavy handedness..and their blowing of smoke up people's collective asses...

In all honesty...the only true contribution from Nvidia to the market in the last year has been Nforce2...which I think was owed us because of the let down with Nforce1...

Perhaps my faith in Nvidia will be restored someday...perhaps not...I let benchmarks do the talking...and so far ATI is owning Nvidia in areas that I'm interested in (4xAA/8xANISO)..These are things Nvidia has always been weak in..but we let them slide for a long time...because after the death of 3dfx..there wasn't much of a choice...and they did have good products running..when ATI really didn't offer competition at the same levels of performance...

That's not true anymore...and I'm not content to "wait and see" with "optimized drivers" blah blah blah...the proof is in the pudding...and right now...NV35 sounds just like the hype that NV30 was...all over again...

But then again that's just IMHO...

Aliu
April 6, 2003 10:29:51 PM

Quote:
was hoping i didn't have to respond to more NV PR stuff. Ah well, here i go. vacs use some logic here now. No more of this loyalty to nvidia stuff. If ATI didn't respond. Then stalker wouldn't function at all on any ati card since they wouldn't have been able to develop on ati card...

And now vacs can you cut down on the nvidia PR bullshit?

Well, now it's really time for YOU to use some logic:

First: I said in my previous post: buy ATI cards! That's hardly any NV PR, now is it?

Second: By all means, why should STALKER not work on ATI cards if ATI didn't send them their latest card? Do you really think that's that impossible for the STALKER team to go in a store and buy an ATI card! Of course this is not the best way to do it but if ATI is not interested in supporting game developpers besides ID, what else could you do? Nvidia always has and also always will support developpers, even if they are so small and unknown like the STALKER team. Nvidia does the right thing, there's no arguing about it. It's not only important to make great cards it's also very important to make sure that the hardware can be used to its fullest degree!

Third: If you really had read that STALKER post, you would know that he was talking about the nv35 and not about some vendor optimizations. Besides that, JC pointed out in his last plan update that the nv3x path are faster than ATI's optimizations in doom3. So either way, it's faster on nvidia hardware. And no, I'm not bribed by nvidia nor affiliated to them nor doing any NV PR BS as you call it. These are facts stated by popular game developpers, not by myself.

Anyway, I don't know why you posted those 3dgpu links but if it was for the usercomments, well, most of those comments are probably the dumbest things I've heard for a long time. Doom3 should run on DX9 but also run fine on DX7 hardware... yeah, whatever. Nvidia sends cards to the STALKER team because they need help from them???? WTF, this doesn't make any sense anymore. There are more examples but I'm getting too tired now to list them all.

To summarize, I'm not doing any NV PR, I am just expressing my opinions. If you don't like them, that's your problem not mine. In fact it even doesn't matter if you really like them or not or if you prefer ATI to nvidia. It's not important which company is the best because as history shows, no one can stay on top forever but it's only important that there are now two successfull companies on the market and the consumer has the option to choose the best. Amen
a b U Graphics card
April 7, 2003 12:15:38 AM

Quote:
is not the best way to do it but if ATI is not interested in supporting game developpers besides ID,

Wait a minute, don't start becoming Nvidia PR again. ATI supports alot of companies, and ID runs it's OWN choice, heck Carmack was running the FX until the 9800 came out. And he was also optimizing for Nvidia before, and has since DROPPED that strategy in lieu of a more broadbased strategy which is what all games should be like. People like the STALKER developers don't have resource, so they 'relly on the kindness of strangers'. Both companies are involved in game development, the difference is that Nvidia's "The way it should be played" program is insideous and makes games favour it's cards at the price of other manufacturers. I want to play it the way I think it should be played, or at the very least the way the Developer originally WANT it to be played, not the way it must be played now to handicap or favour one maker.

Also if your READ Carmack's statements, you would learn that YES it runs faster on NV hardware, but that is at MUCH lower quality with nothing turned on. He mentioned this during the PS 1.3 v 1.4 v 2.0 debate. And the reason it runs faster on the NV, 16-bit precision versus ATI 24-bit precision, and it's only SLIGHTLY faster then at a great cost of quality. When running the NVs at 32bit precision they are MUCH slower (was it 30%?) with NO visible increase in quality of 32bit over 24bit. Anywhoo, anyone wanting to read more, read the Futuremark article right here in Tom's and follow the links, it also talk about optimizations and their evils/good.

I will say it one last time because I think it's worth re-stating; I hope there is a 3rd player so that game developers DO start making games for US and not simply to highlight one cardmaker, that's what would be best for US!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
April 7, 2003 2:54:07 AM

A few things I should add:
ATi created Mojo Day, THEY are the ones out there, not nVidia. ATi has made a day specifically to let the devs go learn in-depth about a DirectX technology, NOT their card's, and commercialize RenderMonkey which is supposed to help newcomers to the DX world get the smooth ride quickly. They also have TONS of ties with developpers, perhaps more than nVidia. One can easily spot that at the recent THG articles on gamer or graphics developper forums. So I dunno about this STALKER thing, but the rest of the PC graphics developper community is fully backed by ATi's help. Read Mojo Day by David Stellmack from THG.

Finally, there is also the issue of the NV30 architecture. Who even can confirm it's so advanced? It uses an awkward pipeline design that seems to switch back and forth, and does not even employ 8 pipes like ATi as first thought. Davepermen has many times indicated that this CineFX architecture is not all that. It is a few added things, and in fact it only promotes conformed programming. I disagree on how advanced it is, it simple does not do good unless you go raw. That's the Pentium4 in its early days and still is a bit, and no, I do not want that in video cards, because efficiency is the most important part here, not clock speeds. The FX5800 Ultra processes about 0.7 triangles per clock, that sucks. The need to go raw at 500MHZ to beat the competition is an example of how weak the architecture is. The NV35 better be a huge revamp, and that includes remodeling the core. Because so far, DX9 performance, without the suspicious drivers, has been VERY weak, up to 1/3rd performance of a 9500PRO.


--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden. :smile:
April 7, 2003 3:32:39 AM

ouch 1/3rd of the 9500pro? dam..

i knew the 9500pro was better, but not THAT much better. its good to hear that some people know what hardware has the real performance, and what is all hype.

cant beat the 9500pro for price man. i cant say it enuff
April 7, 2003 6:06:51 PM

Time to reply to more NV PR from our ever ongoing vacs

Well well so you said buy ati cards now it's not anymore pr. Right, where's mr hyde?
Read your whole first post. That's all PR BSx12. And if you "accidently" don't remember i can quote you
quote vacs:"There are two reasons why one should wait for the nv35 announcement in May and the availability in June:

1) the nv35 is a severly revised and optimized version of the GF FX 5800 Ultra and should beat the Radeon 9800 Pro without any problems (probably even in AA/FA modes since the nv35 offers much more bandwidth than the GF FX)

2) By the time the nv35 ships in June, the performance of the card will be much more improved (same for the GF FX) because nvidia will have had time to optimize their drivers which still are quite new for the GF FX. As one can see everywhere, the performance of the GF FX depends much on the driver version used. The upcoming 5x.xx driver series is rumored to offer advanced performance and image quality then the current 4x.xx drivers.

And finally the price won't be much higher than the initial release price of the GF FX 5800 Ultra (maybe even less) because of the use of less layers (4 to be precise) and the use of cheaper 256-bit DDR I RAM. In fact, one can even expect that the Radeon 9800 with DDR II RAM will be more expensive than the upcoming nv35."
Well i'll be darn and turdy aint that ye olde NV PR crap i see there. And then we got your claim where WHQL means nothing oh yes. A certification for a certain standard is worthless why would we need that. And then we got the NV PR + Nvidiot talk

Quote vacs:"AMD fans always come with "MHz is not everything"
ATI fans now come with "WHQL" where in fact it doesn't mean that much since even the "WHQLed" Catalyst 3.2 crash Half-Life in OpenGL! So WTF.
As I said we know now all since this year that WHQL drivers crash and that 1.6GHz Centrinos beat 2200+ XPs and 2.2GHz P4s. Don't come with that now or have you forgotten about the ATI quake3 cheat in previous drivers?"
Have you checked out the recent NV Q3 cheat drivers? Guess not since Nv doesn't cheat, they "optimize" yeah sure. Have you checked out the 3dmark cheat drivers lately? Have you checked out the Nv PR dept badtalking futuremark? You can't have missed it, it was on alot of sites including tomshardware. And stay on topic if you are gonna act like a NV PR person.

Quote vacs:"Just look at the comment of one STALKER developper to confirm that the nv35 is significally faster than ATI's current offerings."
Let's see a small little dev team in need of money. Hm i wonder how much it would cost em to make a little statement.

Quote vacs:"Second: By all means, why should STALKER not work on ATI cards if ATI didn't send them their latest card? Do you really think that's that impossible for the STALKER team to go in a store and buy an ATI card! Of course this is not the best way to do it but if ATI is not interested in supporting game developpers besides ID, what else could you do? Nvidia always has and also always will support developpers, even if they are so small and unknown like the STALKER team. Nvidia does the right thing, there's no arguing about it. It's not only important to make great cards it's also very important to make sure that the hardware can be used to its fullest degree!"
Well they got "(so)" much money oh yes, that's why they get free cards. Ati only supports ID? My word you must be really into Ati and their doings. Ati does more behind the scenes work helping devs then try to pull cheap PR tricks that their small fanboy minions will follow.

Quote vacs"Third: If you really had read that STALKER post, you would know that he was talking about the nv35 and not about some vendor optimizations. Besides that, JC pointed out in his last plan update that the nv3x path are faster than ATI's optimizations in doom3. So either way, it's faster on nvidia hardware. And no, I'm not bribed by nvidia nor affiliated to them nor doing any NV PR BS as you call it. These are facts stated by popular game developpers, not by myself."
It was IHV specific "optimizations"(don't want to say cheat, since nv doesn't cheat :rolleyes:)  that also meant guess what FP16 weee. Do you even care to read the whole thing or you just ignore anything non-pro nvidia? Remember that JC said why the Nvpath was faster? cough-lower quality-cough. At ARB2 R300 is 2x faster than NV30. At Nvspecific path Nv30 is faster. What you gonna say? JC never said that? Yeah sure keep ignoring that'll learn you something.

Quote vacs:"Anyway, I don't know why you posted those 3dgpu links but if it was for the usercomments, well, most of those comments are probably the dumbest things I've heard for a long time. Doom3 should run on DX9 but also run fine on DX7 hardware... yeah, whatever. Nvidia sends cards to the STALKER team because they need help from them???? WTF, this doesn't make any sense anymore. There are more examples but I'm getting too tired now to list them all."
Yes let's read the user comments and ignore the real message posted from the stalker dev and pr dept! yes let's act nvidiot. Read the links! There the stalker teams say quite obvious even for someone like you to notice that the stalker team did have r300 cards to develop on.

quote vacs:"To summarize, I'm not doing any NV PR, I am just expressing my opinions. If you don't like them, that's your problem not mine. In fact it even doesn't matter if you really like them or not or if you prefer ATI to nvidia. It's not important which company is the best because as history shows, no one can stay on top forever but it's only important that there are now two successfull companies on the market and the consumer has the option to choose the best."
Sure you're not doing any pr. Just being an unpaid lacey for someone company that doesn't care about you. And then you state that it doesn't matter which company is the best. Then why do you even bother defending them instead of discussing? Bringing up the Ati quack issue and ignoring all the NV crap lately.
And if you're gonna try and respond to this. Stay on topic if that's not to hard for you.
And here's the comments from the 3dgpu site that you so gladly ignored

Posted by Matt Burris at 3dgpu at 1april. Letter was received some days earlier.
You may remember I wrote a mini-rant about NVIDIA's "The Way It's Meant To Be Played" logo campaign and how it relates to S.T.A.L.K.E.R. when they said the game engine was built using a Radeon 9700. I emailed the guys who are developing the game, asked for clarifications, and got a response from Oles V. Shishkovtsov. Here's what he had to say:

We use all hardware for development of Stalker, although most are NVIDIA. We will produce a game with the best quality, compatibility, and performance on all supported hardware (T&L or better).
Here are the general things. As a programmer, I need to get access to the latest hardware and talk to it's manufacturers, otherwise we may get way behind the competition. I want to give credit to NVIDIA for agreeing to be our technical partner and render us this kind of assistance (we contacted NVIDIA and ATI for several months, but ATI did not respond). NVIDIA offers me early hardware and very good support. Prior to GeForceFX I worked with Radeon 9700 but I am currently developing the Stalker engine on NV35. Naturally, such close work with NVIDIA engineers allows me to come up with better optimizations and support the new technologies of NVIDIA boards.

In Stalker you'll be able to play fine on NVIDIA and ATI hardware--the gameplay and run stability should be the same. On ATI boards Stalker will run fast, but on NVIDIA boards it will run even faster, plus gamers will get a set of unique effects, namely due to close work with the company enginers and support of NVIDIA hardware features.

That helps clear things up, and I want to thank Oles for taking the time to respond to my email.

And then we got the second one which you also so gladly ignored.

Posted by Matt Burris at 3dgpu 28th of march. letter was received a few days earlier
This is a bit I wanted to air out regarding NVIDIA's whole "The Way It's Meant To Be Played" logo campaign that you see in some of the new popular games. One game that will sport the logo and looks quite sweet is S.T.A.L.K.E.R. from GSC-Game World. What exactly does the logo mean, and what does it involve?

This is what I was told when I asked about it from NVIDIA. It involves human resources, namely developer relations, from NVIDIA. This involves working closely with them, making sure all their questions are answered, giving them tips, and so on. They also have access to the latest stable drivers all the time, tutorials, and so on. A lot of people on the ATI camp/fence think money is involved, but what a lot of people forget that time equals money. A developer relations guy spending his time to help the developers can be the same as giving them money directly, as it helps their game look better, play better, and even sell better. To a developer, I imagine they'd appreciate more the help in developing their game for best results, rather than being paid/bribed directly to advertise the logo in their game. Wouldn't that make much more sense? I would think so.

Yet, as I mention earlier, one of the games that will sport the "The Way It's Meant To Be Played" logo is S.T.A.L.K.E.R., a sweet looking FPS game. Interestingly though, a member of their team sent out this email:


In fact, the graphics engine is developed on Radeon9700 We demand special support from FX driver guys, 'cause in pure/standart DX9 it's impossible so run the engine on FX, at the moment. Yes, FX will be slightly faster, but in the margin of several percentages...
So, don't worry, your card will be excelent performer in S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

--
Best regards,
Oles V. Shishkovtsov
GSC-Game World
oles@gsc-game.kiev.ua

Source: Rage3D Forums

They've developed the game engine on a Radeon 9700, yet they claim that the game was meant to be played on a NVIDIA card. How can a developer sport that logo and then turn around and say the engine was developed on a Radeon 9700? I know developers want to play both side of the fence for maximum sales, but that's a bit misleading, don't you think? The logo should represent the fact that the game was built using NVIDIA technology, and shouldn't be used/advertised when a competitor's technology is used. I think they should be advertising ATI, moreso, than NVIDIA. As that would reflect the truth of the matter. What prompted the developer to use that logo, is the question? Human resources from NVIDIA? Tips from them? It certainly wasn't development of the engine on a GeForce FX card.

Well i'll be darn where did those messages pop up. I must be a magician or something reading the real message instead of ignoring them.
And i'll post them again incase you miss em again
http://www.3dgpu.com/comments.php?id=2283&category=9
http://www.3dgpu.com/comments.php?id=2307&category=9
April 7, 2003 7:04:30 PM

A little late in commenting, I suppose, but the "Waiting for Guffman" comment slayed me! Very funny!!
April 7, 2003 10:22:29 PM

Unit01, if you really believed I would bother reading your whole post then you thought definitely wrong. I don't have time for your opinion, I even don't care for what you say. I hope ATI pays you a good check for your ATI PR but I don't give a crap.

Enjoy your nv35 which you will buy during this summer and thank you for the good laugh I had with your posts :) 

PS: You seem to get upset quite easily, that's not good for your health ;)  It's just about a graphiccard and not something really important for life, so calm down. I won't respond anymore to you since it's useless, you have your opinion, I have mine and everyone is happy :)  I don't need to defend myself against you, I'm too old for this s...
April 8, 2003 12:11:55 AM

Actually guys, i hate to be the one to say this BUT: While you guys were busy arguing NVIDIA release the NV75.1 core. Don't get too excited though because ATI should be releasing the R567 soon!

The aim of military training is not just to prepare men for battle, but to make them long for it. <A HREF="http://forums.btvillarin.com/index.php?act=ST&f=41&t=32..." target="_new"><b>MY SYSTEM</b></A>
a b U Graphics card
April 8, 2003 2:38:51 AM

Christopher Guest doing his little dance in Waiting for Guffman still keeps me laughing, giggling, and smirking for days.

Step, Step, Waddle, Waddle, Wiggle Wiggle.

Anywhoo, just thought all threads that involve ATI vs Nvidia can use a little levity. It's nice to know there's an audience able to apreciate fine filmaking. :cool:


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
April 8, 2003 8:37:42 AM

Fine ignore the facts. Idiots make one upset. You act so typical. When the evidence can't be missed you ignore it. And then try to project your own emotion on the other by claiming that the other person is doing the pr. Neglecting your own thoughts for a small moment justifying your thoughts. My my what a control you have.
You don't even know how to discuss vacs without spewing your PR crap around. You going to take a break from the graphics card forum again hoping noone will remember this?
I discuss and evaluate something you never seem to have heard of sine you often pull up old NV PR crap and when someone proves you wrong you just leave. Keep going with that and see how far that takes you.
April 8, 2003 11:24:39 AM

HERE ARE THE FACTS:

1.) We have no idea how the NV35 is going to perform. Where are the benchmarks? Are you going to start making seemlingly factual statements based solely on the Inquirer and NVidia PR now? Don't pretend you know things you don't unless you do work for ATI or nVidia.

2.) The ATI Catalyst 3.2 is WHQL certified but does have CS bugs. What does that prove? WHQL doesn't guarantee absolute perfection, but who said it would? In the meantime, use the 3.1 Catalyst driver until the enhanced 3.3s come out in 2 weeks or so. It's not like nVidia has never had a single problem in any of their drivers.

3.) As Eden mentioned, ATI does support developers. However, ATI isn't at this point forcing any developers to have a special logo to show that off as nVidia is. Does that mean nVidia supporting developers more than ATI? I don't know...but that's some very "fuzzy logic" to me, excuse the pun. All this proves to me is that nVidia is spending a lot of money to "show off" their developer support to the public to portray the part of a "people's company". There's nothing wrong with that per se, but are they really working harder with developers?

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
April 8, 2003 11:48:25 AM

to 1) didn't we got teached in school to learn from the past? bush continues the stupid wars of his father. the us continues to follow a stupid leader. the uk follows to asslick the us. the rest of the world continues to have no power. nvfanboys continue to believe the hype in a new gpu wich will solve all the problems of current gpu's.

2) the ati drivers do have certain bugs, but they run stable on their own. most bugs are together with software/drivers of other vendors, wich don't follow all the guidelines they should (software has no test to go through at all, drivers at least have WHQL to proove they do what they should).
a system with WHQL only works stable if there is no hw problem.
nvidia hs tons of problems with their drivers. ask nutty (www.nutty.org) about his driver reports..:D 

3)ati does support developers, it does help them. nvidia merely buys them, much the way microsoft tried to eat up everyone. nvidia is, what i would call corrupt, today. if microsoft would do something similar, the whole world would cry.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
April 8, 2003 6:03:15 PM

Well it wont be Mem limited at least the Nv35 that's for sure. And it is said yes said that the NV35 will be what the NV30 hype was all about. Yes actual performance. If they will fix the hardware fog bug is unknown to me. If they will improve the FSAA method is unknown to me. If they will release WHQL drivers anywhere soon is also unknown to me. But at least we will have a bigger probability to see WHQL drivers after the NV35 is released then before. Since it's retweaked a little so perhaps the performance FP16->FP32 wont be as drastical as it is now. Oh and BTW that means it has almost been 3/4 year since NV released something WHQL
April 8, 2003 9:00:04 PM

Quote:
Oh and BTW that means it has almost been 3/4 year since NV released something WHQL

yeah, shame on nvidia for not releasing WHQL drivers which crash Half-Life in OpenGL... shame on them!

geez, what am I having fun here :) 
April 8, 2003 9:38:49 PM

Quote:
Actually guys, i hate to be the one to say this BUT: While you guys were busy arguing NVIDIA release the NV75.1 core. Don't get too excited though because ATI should be releasing the R567 soon!

Well, I though I would be interesting to know when nvidia will release the nv75.1 core and when ATI will release the R567 core.

So here is my calculation assuming that nvidia needs one year for a completely new core (6 months for a new revision): If everythings goes right and nvidia can keep up with their product cycle than the nv40 will be announced in Q1 2004. The nv70 will be released in Q1 2007 and the nv75.1 follow-up will be available Q3 2007 (6 months product cycle needed to release the nv75 and a 1-2 months for the .1 revision).

Now to ATI. ATI just announced today that they are on 24 months product cycle from now on. This leave the release date of the r400 to Q2 2004 because the r300 shipped in Q2 2002. This would also mean that one can buy the R500 in Q2 2006. The r550 will be available a year later which would give us Q2 2007 as a date. Adding 2-3 months to that for the release of the r567 core results in Q3 2007.

Conclusion:
The nv75.1 and the r567 will ship in Q3 2007. What a strange coincidence! But rubberbband, I wouldn't call that "soon"! They are still a few years off.

BTW: Anyone read that rumour at vr-zone.com about the r400 being DX10 compatible? Well, that's definitely a rumour since MS already stated that DX10 won't be available before 2005 --> no r400 before 2005. Damn, I have to redo my calculations :) 
April 8, 2003 10:35:18 PM

Your an idiot, Bush is a great leader and he has done more for our country and Iraq than you ever will for yours. If you think you could do better why don’t you? Some people sit and criticize others; others make a difference while ignoring the critics. Look at the facts. Sadaam has killed over 2 million people, and you criticize the President of the United States. Grow Up. What country are you from? What have you done to help the world?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by mattburklund on 04/08/03 06:38 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 8, 2003 11:06:27 PM

Agreed.
Saying Bush is in this war for his father is rediculous. Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I don't care how dumb you think Bush is, noone would go to war simply because of a personal vendeta. All the smart anti-war and/or anti-bush people say the war is about Oil and other things, but they never say its because of his father! Only the idiots say that.
The humanitarian situation that was/is in Iraq ALONE is enough to justify war in my opinion, not to mention all of the UN sanctions/policies they have broken.
The US Government has announced publically that the Iraqi oil will STAY Iraqi oil, so that eliminates the possibility of this war being based on oil.
Results from this war:
1. We will be safer (even if its only slightly safer) from terrorists/rogue nations
2. Iraq will be a better place and could set an example for the rest of the middle-east.
3. The VAST majority of Iraqi people will be MUCH happier, and opression will be all but eliminated.

On camera, Iraqis support Saddam, because if they don't, they could be killed! Now that the war has started, many Iraqis are even dissing Saddam on camera, but most of the Iraqi people have always hated him.

What the hell kind of election is it when theres only ONE candidate?!? Well thats what you got in 'olde' Iraq.
'New' Iraq will be a much better place to live.

And hey, if they lower the price of a barrel of oil a bit as a thankyou to us, WHO CARES! We get some cheaper oil also.
Everyones happy!
Except Saddam, and maybe faggots like you.


Long live ATI.
April 9, 2003 12:10:13 AM

I agree with everything you said!Except that last line about faggots like you? Was that for me?
I think we are on the same page.
April 9, 2003 12:42:15 AM

Quote:
1. We will be safer (even if its only slightly safer) from terrorists/rogue nations
2. Iraq will be a better place and could set an example for the rest of the middle-east.
3. The VAST majority of Iraqi people will be MUCH happier, and opression will be all but eliminated.

1. Just the contrary will happen, terrorist attacks will increase because they are in for revenge. You don't stop terrorists unless you get them all. Since the US didn't succeed to get Bin Laden in two years, how long do you think will it take to get rid of all terrorists? BTW, that goal is impossible to attain. It's like if you want to put all software pirates in jail. You can never do that...

2. Iraq will never be a better place, even if Bush somehow would manage to inject democracy... Everytime the US tried that, they failed completely, don't expect it to happen here!

3. Do you think Iraq people will really be happier? In what utopia are you living. Bush can never restore peace or whatever he says he wants to do in Iraq. If you believe that, you're pretty naive! Bush wants oil, nothing less. You're a fool if you really believe that US Government will leave the oil to the Iraqies.

I sometimes really wonder, how naive people are, blindfully believing everything their government or the media tells them. You are manipulated all the time, don't you recognize it?

ok, now back to the topic: the nv35 will be faster than the Radeon 9800 Pro because it's nvidia's last chance to be again the company they always were...
April 9, 2003 3:08:23 AM

Ahm, mother[bleeeeeeeeeeeep], why the hell did we have to sidetrack it just cuz of a few friggin political sentences. That's the damn problem in this forum, you say one crack at politics, the whole thread turns 360.
Please drag it to the OTHER forum, PLEASE.

--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden. :smile:
a b U Graphics card
April 9, 2003 4:01:29 AM

Hey UNIT01, watch who you respond to, if that's actually directed at me, then you better re-think it! If it's directed at VACS, try to edit the ' re: ' line and straighten it out. I'm NOBODY's PR monkey! I've recommended products from all 4 major card makers (pro and 2d market have the other 2).

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
April 9, 2003 4:41:45 AM

Quote:
Bush wants oil, nothing less. You're a fool if you really believe that US Government will leave the oil to the Iraqies.


Really? Can you back this up?

<font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red>
a b U Graphics card
April 9, 2003 5:48:16 AM

I will say this. This is not CNN.com, Politics doesn't belong here. Bush is neither Satan NOR God, but this isn't the place.

The only people who could have a rational discussion about this topic all agree on one point;

This ain't the Freakin' Place, take it outside the forum if you want to defend your political views. The quality of Political discourse in here isn't worthy of space on a bathroom wall, try to stick with Hardware folks. Heck talk about the tech of War, or the Graphics cards inside a B2 HUD if you want, but leave the myopic political commentary to the folks at FOXnews.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
April 9, 2003 7:06:48 AM

Quote:
1. Just the contrary will happen, terrorist attacks will increase because they are in for revenge. You don't stop terrorists unless you get them all. Since the US didn't succeed to get Bin Laden in two years, how long do you think will it take to get rid of all terrorists? BTW, that goal is impossible to attain. It's like if you want to put all software pirates in jail. You can never do that...

You're right. It's much better to do nothing, and be helpless victims. Do you watch TV? Notice the 150 CHILDREN our soldiers sprang from an Iraqi jail today? And you think that's not worth fighting for? The war against terrorism is only one of the many reasons we're fighting Iraq. Believe it or not, unlike most other nations, the U.S. does some things out of idealism. And Saddam Hussein's regime is a disgrace to civilization.

Quote:
2. Iraq will never be a better place, even if Bush somehow would manage to inject democracy... Everytime the US tried that, they failed completely, don't expect it to happen here!

Umm...ever hear of Germany? Japan? Yeah, we suck at that nation-building thing, all right. Germany was far better before democracy...right? And Japan also?

We rebuild what we tear down after we achieve victory. We are the ONLY nation in history who has done that as a matter of policy.

When you think of failed nation-building, think United Nations, a.k.a. The World's Whore. Most of the failures of U.S. diplomacy happen when we put too much confidence in the U.N. The U.N. is nothing more than a glorified arbitrator with no executive authority. It's a joke.

Quote:
3. Do you think Iraq people will really be happier? In what utopia are you living. Bush can never restore peace or whatever he says he wants to do in Iraq. If you believe that, you're pretty naive! Bush wants oil, nothing less. You're a fool if you really believe that US Government will leave the oil to the Iraqies.

Yes. I do think that eventually, the Iraqis will be happier. Hell, a lot of them are ALREADY happier. As far as Bush or anyone else being able to restore peace--you are a naysayer. If people like you ran the world, nothing would ever be accomplished, since everything is impossible, in your opinion. We should all just kill ourselves immediately, since life is hopeless.

Quote:
I sometimes really wonder, how naive people are, blindfully believing everything their government or the media tells them. You are manipulated all the time, don't you recognize it?

Funny, because from where I stand, it is YOU who appears to have "head buried in dark-body-orifice." No one believes everything their government tells them. Thing is, some things are so OBVIOUS that only FOOLS and partisans are unwilling to believe. All you have to do is review a little history to know that everything Saddam Hussein has been accused of doing is true.

And it just so happens that the U.S. government is certainly not the only government that lies. In truth, no other nation on earth is so free with information and so honest when laying public embarassing scandals and news that might best remain confidential. MANY other nations control their media. We offer anyone with a press-pass the privelege of traveling with our troops during war. There are too many people watching too many X-Files episodes. Yes, our government has secrets. No, there is not some great conspiracy on the part of the U.S. to take over the world. We try to affect change through the spread of democracy. We don't occupy the nations that we conquer and then claim their resources. We could if we wanted to. Actually, we spend more money than any other nation on propping up other nations. The world COSTS us money. Next time you find yourself fearing some U.S. propaganda conspiracy, ask yourself what would happen to protestors living in Iraq. Listen to the propaganda that comes from Iraq's minister of information.

Yet you seem perfectly willing to believe the governments of Iraq, France, Germany, Russia, China, Belgium, etc. over the United States. Can you provide anything in the way of empirical evidence to back your beliefs, or are you one of those who just folds his arms over his chest, stamps his foot, and says, "I'm right and you're stupid!" It's easy to spew rhetoric like "no blood for oil!" It's much more difficult to provide a cogent argument that this war is, in fact, all about oil.



<-----Insert witty sig line here.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Twitch on 04/09/03 03:13 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 9, 2003 7:52:38 AM

I didnt start it, if you noticed. If someone takes a punch at my country, I have a right to defend that anywhere.
April 9, 2003 8:20:52 AM

Although I agree that it shouldn't be in the graphics card section, and I shouldn't have even responded, the Other or Poll section is fine. There are hundreds of posts related to politics in there and I personally enjoy debating it in there. We're from all over the world and it's better for us to argue here then on the battlefield down the road.

<font color=red>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red>
April 9, 2003 11:50:27 AM

Indeed, now let us quickly diverge that topic back to video cards.

Seems like the end of April will see the 9600 series. Sapphire already has the models and website info on their products, except clock speeds.

--
This post is brought to you by Eden, on a Via Eden, in the garden of Eden. :smile:
April 9, 2003 1:22:20 PM

But aren't there rumours that it will not be better than the 9500 series???

<b><font color=blue>The opposite of love is indifference not hate.</b></font color=blue>
April 9, 2003 4:17:19 PM

whoa, bitch fight guys , take a pill, smoke a j, eat some brownies, beat off ffs lol



anyways, even tho im an ATI fanboi (always was, even before the original Radeon..now is my time to speak out! ATI !!) i think the NV35 will be faster than the 9800pro.

honestly, im not impressed with it. it brings nothing new.. people are reaching these speeds with overclocked/modded 9700pros


so yeah, once NV35 comes out then we will see if Nvidia is still the great video card company that it was before the GF3 (see? i can say it. just because we all love ATI doesnt mean we cant give credit where its due BUT IMO ATI surpassed Nvidia with every product after and including the 8500) or if its just releasing a quick follow up like the 9800pro seems to be

ps-BUy a 9500 pro!

blah.. siggys suck
April 9, 2003 9:11:22 PM

The "faggots like you" comment was directed at the person who dissed bush and the war in a previous post, not you.

Bush isnt perfect, his tax plan sucks, and hes admitedly not the brightest guy in the world, and can sometimes have some trouble with words.
However, his heart is in the right place, and THIS MATTERS! Bush is willing to stand up for what is right. I agree there could be revenge terrorist attacks, but that dosnt mean we shouldnt keep fighting them. Sometimes doing what is right dosnt turn out in your favor immediately, but in the end, it definately will.

To all those who Bush, this war, and US policy in general, i recommend you read Colin Powells book "My American Journey".
In this book Powell talks ALOT about Vietnam. When he realised what it was all about and how the way it was carried out was wrong, he was highly opposed to the war, and felt that many Americans had died unnecessarily.
He also talks about his views/opinions on war in general, and how he would never stand for another Vietnam. As long as Colin Powell is where he is in the government, I am willing to bet our wars have a definate purpose (and a just one) and will be carried out to the best of our military's ability. This book was written before the Iraqi 'crisis' before the planning stages of war, and I believe if Colin Powell didn't agree with this war, he would first do whatever he could to stop or change it, and if he couldnt, he would step down from his position.
I believe the US government knows more than we do about Iraq, terrorism, and alot of other things that theyre not telling us. But i believe that the things they know that we dont would only further support for the war, if they were known.
PS. I dont blindly follow anything/anyone, I may assume something from the start, but I will always try to find facts. And there are plenty of facts that support my view of the war.

The Iraqis will become like the Kurds, they will celebrate the day they gain their freedom from Saddam, and they will thank the US for what it has done.

If the US does not give Iraq its oil (like they have said they would) and they take control of it completely, I would be very upset and criticise them for doing so. I dont think this will happen though.

Long live ATI.
April 10, 2003 2:46:25 AM

yeah this is about video cards guys


i could post about 10 paragraphs on what i think bout Bush and Iraq (hehe search for Bushism, its hilarious) but theres other forums for that



so yeah, you moron (not going to say names) go download some Pr0n of kazaa and release some of that pressure . trust me, it works :D 

blah.. siggys suck
a b U Graphics card
April 10, 2003 3:33:34 AM

PrOn Eh !?! Mmmmm I can Download Fresh Prawn from Kazaa? Yes that does release some tension MMmmm HorseRadish! :wink:

Sorry couldn't resist.

As for the Grfx cards (is that why we are here?) I'm still going to get a 9600Pro even if it performs at 90% of the 9500P. However I think that the 9600P will perform better in the Basic games without AA and AF enabled (yes that is the war cry of the FX fans [at deafening decibel levels], I know), and despite the fact that it would complete my 'buyers satisfaction' feeling after getting it, my biggest concerns are temp. and power consumption (don't really want another power connector to worry about), As long as it gives me a respectable frame rate in Doom]|[ with some options on, then it should do me for now. Although I have an Enmax 365P, I don't want to get a new one because I added an optical or hard drive after I buy this next card, and I'm not sure if the 9500P will give me that security. But it will depend a bit on the price though. Not paying $100+CDN more for the 9600, since I could buy another Enmax 465P for that price.

And a Canuck just can't pass up a Goalie mask on the cover of the 9600P Retail box, I mean come on!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=red>RED</font color=red> <font color=green>GREEN</font color=green> :tongue: GA to SK
April 10, 2003 7:49:38 AM

I was just thinking like what if DOOM III turns out to be just like UT2/UT2k3 i mean all eye candy and grafix but suckky at gameplay. I havent tried the alpha how was it?

<b><font color=blue>The opposite of love is indifference not hate.</b></font color=blue>
!