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Marthe Dizier combat ends vs psyche

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Anonymous
May 7, 2005 9:26:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Marthe Dizier 10 pro AUS CEL OBF PRE

Toreador Antitribu 3 Sabbat, Black Hand: When a combat involving
Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she played during that
combat you your hand. +1 bleed. G


So, if Marthe combat ends in a given combat, is she able to fetch that
card back in the face of an opponenets psyche?

Cheers,

-merto
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 2:02:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Izaak wrote:
> Yes.
>
> Psyche! requires combat to be ended to be played, so there is a
window
> where you can retrieve a card. Compare to Telepathic Tracking, which
is
> played when 'combat is about to end'.


"dizier psyche author:lsj" search gives you:

> Anyway, i believe that Marthe can't retrieve a Psyche! played at
> the superior, but can retrieve a Psyche! played for press and
> immediately play it at superior level. Henry Taylor can retrieve a
> Psyche! played at the superior level.

Correct.
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 6:00:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Yes.

Psyche! requires combat to be ended to be played, so there is a window
where you can retrieve a card. Compare to Telepathic Tracking, which is
played when 'combat is about to end'.
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 7:37:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Izaak wrote:
> >
> > "dizier psyche author:lsj" search gives you:
> >
> > > Anyway, i believe that Marthe can't retrieve a Psyche! played
at
> > > the superior, but can retrieve a Psyche! played for press and
> > > immediately play it at superior level. Henry Taylor can retrieve
a
> > > Psyche! played at the superior level.
> >
> > Correct.
>
> Actually, the question is whether or not Marthe can retrieve a combat
> card when the opponent plays Psyche! at superior, which I still
believe
> she can.

Ooops...well, why wouldn't she? Combat's over, cards played in said
combat. Perhaps she's out of blood?
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 1:45:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"scrote" <mudz78@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115511983.969096.44490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Marthe Dizier 10 pro AUS CEL OBF PRE
>
> Toreador Antitribu 3 Sabbat, Black Hand: When a combat involving
> Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she played during that
> combat you your hand. +1 bleed. G
>
>
> So, if Marthe combat ends in a given combat, is she able to fetch that
> card back in the face of an opponenets psyche?
>
> Cheers,
>
> -merto
>

I hope this is correct, because I've been using this tech to protect a
Marthe Dizer bleed deck from a pretty powerful Elen Fence, the Tracker and
!Gangrel friends rush deck for months. All you need is Marthe on the table
and one Staredown in hand :) 


combat begins
pre-range
determine range
<I assume no immortal grapples are played at this step>
declare strikes - Marthe plays an S:CE card.

As soon as the S:CE card is played <ie: Combat Ends>
* draw back up to your handsize
* burn 1 blood and take the S:CE card back into your hand,
* discard down to your handsize

<did I mention this is a great way to cycle useless cards out of your hand,
too?>

opponent plays Psyche! to restart combat.


Unless combat ends and begins again on the same card, Marthe must have a
window in which she can use her special. I'm pretty sure this is correct,
but I'd like a second opinion on this.

-Vinnie!
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 1:45:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Vincent Crisafulli wrote:
> I hope this is correct, because I've been using this tech to protect a
> Marthe Dizer bleed deck from a pretty powerful Elen Fence, the Tracker and
> !Gangrel friends rush deck for months. All you need is Marthe on the table
> and one Staredown in hand :) 

I thought LSJ would've answered this already, but seeing as he hasn't,
I'll throw in my two cents -- Marthe Dizier's ability and Psyche! have
the same window of oppurtunity (you can use MD to retrieve a Psyche!
played in combat for a press, and immediately play it to start a new
combat), but Psyche! negates Marthe Dizier's ability because when it's
played, there's immediately a new combat. So if Marthe's controller is
the acting minion, she can use her ability first, but once the
controller of the opposing minion plays the Psyche!, it's too late to
make use of Marthe's ability.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...

--Colin McGuigan
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 3:19:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

>
> "dizier psyche author:lsj" search gives you:
>
> > Anyway, i believe that Marthe can't retrieve a Psyche! played at
> > the superior, but can retrieve a Psyche! played for press and
> > immediately play it at superior level. Henry Taylor can retrieve a
> > Psyche! played at the superior level.
>
> Correct.

Actually, the question is whether or not Marthe can retrieve a combat
card when the opponent plays Psyche! at superior, which I still believe
she can.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 3:51:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Colin McGuigan wrote:
> Vincent Crisafulli wrote:
> > I hope this is correct, because I've been using this tech to
protect a
> > Marthe Dizer bleed deck from a pretty powerful Elen Fence, the
Tracker and
> > !Gangrel friends rush deck for months. All you need is Marthe on
the table
> > and one Staredown in hand :) 
>
> I thought LSJ would've answered this already, but seeing as he
hasn't,
> I'll throw in my two cents -- Marthe Dizier's ability and Psyche!
have
> the same window of oppurtunity (you can use MD to retrieve a Psyche!
> played in combat for a press, and immediately play it to start a new
> combat), but Psyche! negates Marthe Dizier's ability because when
it's
> played, there's immediately a new combat. So if Marthe's controller
is
> the acting minion, she can use her ability first, but once the
> controller of the opposing minion plays the Psyche!, it's too late to

> make use of Marthe's ability.
>
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...
>
> --Colin McGuigan

That's pretty much how we played it, but it did generate a bit of
discussion about how it should work.

I wonder if there is a way to have fun with that?

Clan Impersonate, Path of Blood, Thin blood, staredown, fetch, psyche?

Easy :) 

Any "before strike" dmg/burn blood cards I guess are feasible. Well,
weather control maybe not.

Give her OBT and use Darkness Within. Use a path and you are
essentially doing it for free (you do get the darkness blood between
combats, right?). Plus you get a man. which may enable you to simply
press with a psyche every now an then to get more blood. I suppose you
could play a heap of discipline cards and a few shock troops...or
something.

Here's one that sort of works with current disciplines:

Mask of Judas, Staredown, psyche. You would probably need something
stupid like the eye of Hazimel though, so you didn't have to pay for
the MoJ.

Thanks.

-merto
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 2:59:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Colin McGuigan wrote:
> Vincent Crisafulli wrote:
>
>> I hope this is correct, because I've been using this tech to protect a
>> Marthe Dizer bleed deck from a pretty powerful Elen Fence, the Tracker
>> and !Gangrel friends rush deck for months. All you need is Marthe on
>> the table and one Staredown in hand :) 
>
>
> I thought LSJ would've answered this already, but seeing as he hasn't,

No need until now, since the initial responses were correct and there
was no call for an official seal of approval.

> I'll throw in my two cents -- Marthe Dizier's ability and Psyche! have
> the same window of oppurtunity (you can use MD to retrieve a Psyche!

Correct.

> played in combat for a press, and immediately play it to start a new
> combat), but Psyche! negates Marthe Dizier's ability because when it's
> played, there's immediately a new combat. So if Marthe's controller is

No. "new combat" does nothing to thwart her ability.
See also replacing "things which are not replaced until after combat" not
being thwarted by Psyche!.

> the acting minion, she can use her ability first, but once the
> controller of the opposing minion plays the Psyche!, it's too late to
> make use of Marthe's ability.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...
>
>
> --Colin McGuigan


--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 2:59:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> No. "new combat" does nothing to thwart her ability.
> See also replacing "things which are not replaced until after combat" not
> being thwarted by Psyche!.

What about superior Catatonic Fear? I'm seeing conflicted rulings and
am too lazy to find out which one is right, but the point of damage is
either cancelled by Psyche!, or lingers until all combats are over.
Either way, it's an after combat effect that's interrupted or delayed.
Why is it different?

In an alternate vein:

Frederick the Weak (with CEL, and 3 blood) rushes Lazverinus.

Frederick punches for one, Lazverinus punches for 3.

No prevent, no press.

At the end of the combat, Frederick wants to play Psyche!. Lazverinus
wants to play Disarm. Frederick, being acting, gets to go first, of course.

#1: Is the window for playing Psyche! after that of playing Disarm,
rendering the question moot, or...
#2: Does the Psyche! prevent playing the Disarm, or...
#3: Can they both play their cards, resulting in a new combat where
Frederick immediately goes to torpor?

--Colin McGuigan
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 9:52:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 8 May 2005 23:51:12 -0700, "scrote" <mudz78@hotmail.com> scrawled:

>
>> make use of Marthe's ability.
>
>Give her OBT and use Darkness Within. Use a path and you are
>essentially doing it for free (you do get the darkness blood between
>combats, right?)

yes. but no blood will have been moved to it if you didn't get to
'regular' strike resolution, which you don't if someone s:ce's.


salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 10:37:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Mon, 09 May 2005 10:13:25 -0500, Colin McGuigan
<maguaSPAM@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote:

> Frederick the Weak (with CEL, and 3 blood) rushes Lazverinus.
>
> Frederick punches for one, Lazverinus punches for 3.
>
> No prevent, no press.
>
> At the end of the combat, Frederick wants to play Psyche!. Lazverinus
> wants to play Disarm. Frederick, being acting, gets to go first, of
> course.
>
> #1: Is the window for playing Psyche! after that of playing Disarm,
> rendering the question moot, or...
> #2: Does the Psyche! prevent playing the Disarm, or...
> #3: Can they both play their cards, resulting in a new combat where
> Frederick immediately goes to torpor?

I'd wager... it's #1.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 1:27:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Colin McGuigan wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
>> No. "new combat" does nothing to thwart her ability.
>> See also replacing "things which are not replaced until after combat" not
>> being thwarted by Psyche!.
>
> What about superior Catatonic Fear? I'm seeing conflicted rulings and
> am too lazy to find out which one is right, but the point of damage is
> either cancelled by Psyche!, or lingers until all combats are over.
> Either way, it's an after combat effect that's interrupted or delayed.
> Why is it different?

CF is a "end combat and do something else all as part of this single
effect" thing. Marthe's ability is not. See also Undead Persistence's
ticket to torpor.

> In an alternate vein:
>
> Frederick the Weak (with CEL, and 3 blood) rushes Lazverinus.
>
> Frederick punches for one, Lazverinus punches for 3.
>
> No prevent, no press.
>
> At the end of the combat, Frederick wants to play Psyche!. Lazverinus
> wants to play Disarm. Frederick, being acting, gets to go first, of
> course.
>
> #1: Is the window for playing Psyche! after that of playing Disarm,
> rendering the question moot, or...
> #2: Does the Psyche! prevent playing the Disarm, or...
> #3: Can they both play their cards, resulting in a new combat where
> Frederick immediately goes to torpor?

#1. Superior Psyche! is played after combat.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 1:27:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> Colin McGuigan wrote:
> CF is a "end combat and do something else all as part of this single
> effect" thing. Marthe's ability is not. See also Undead Persistence's
> ticket to torpor.

Ok. Cagliostro, the Grand Copht is hunting. Frederick the Weak (with
CEL, etc) blocks. An uneventful combat occurs.

For whatever reason, Cagliostro's controller declines to place a
corruption counter on Frederick, and passes on playing any effects.
Frederick plays superior Psyche!.

Can Cagliostro's controller then place the corruption counter on
Frederick, in the face of the Psyche!?

--Colin McGuigan
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:20:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Colin McGuigan wrote:
> Ok. Cagliostro, the Grand Copht is hunting. Frederick the Weak (with
> CEL, etc) blocks. An uneventful combat occurs.
>
> For whatever reason, Cagliostro's controller declines to place a
> corruption counter on Frederick, and passes on playing any effects.
> Frederick plays superior Psyche!.
>
> Can Cagliostro's controller then place the corruption counter on
> Frederick, in the face of the Psyche!?

Sure. They have the same timing window. See also Marthe vs. Psyche!

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
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Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:20:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> Sure. They have the same timing window. See also Marthe vs. Psyche!

So can an acting minion with 0 blood Psyche! after a combat against
Amelia, the Blood Red Tears? If so, when does the damage get applied?

--Colin McGuigan
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:33:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Colin McGuigan wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
>> Sure. They have the same timing window. See also Marthe vs. Psyche!
>
> So can an acting minion with 0 blood Psyche! after a combat against
> Amelia, the Blood Red Tears? If so, when does the damage get applied?

Yes. Immediately (causing the Psyche!-combat to abort once the would-be
combatant is no longer ready). See also Undead Persistence vs. Psyche!.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:33:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> Yes. Immediately (causing the Psyche!-combat to abort once the would-be
> combatant is no longer ready). See also Undead Persistence vs. Psyche!.

Undead Persistence vs Psyche! allows (last I checked) the
going-to-torpor vampire the ability to play another Undead Persistence;
this insinuates that the new combat is entered.

Is this correct?

If so, does this apply to Amelia, as well? Could the damage be
prevented with a Skin of Rock?

(Tertiary question: Could a vampire suffering from UP/Psyche! play other
before range cards aside from UP, or must UP be the first card played to
keep that vampire from going to torpor in the new combat?)

--Colin McGuigan
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:45:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Colin McGuigan wrote:

> LSJ wrote:
>
>> Yes. Immediately (causing the Psyche!-combat to abort once the would-be
>> combatant is no longer ready). See also Undead Persistence vs. Psyche!.
>
>
> Undead Persistence vs Psyche! allows (last I checked) the
> going-to-torpor vampire the ability to play another Undead Persistence;
> this insinuates that the new combat is entered.
>
> Is this correct?

Sure.

> If so, does this apply to Amelia, as well? Could the damage be
> prevented with a Skin of Rock?

If there was any damage, perhaps. But Amelia doesn't do damage.

> (Tertiary question: Could a vampire suffering from UP/Psyche! play other
> before range cards aside from UP, or must UP be the first card played to
> keep that vampire from going to torpor in the new combat?)

Only UP or similar (otherwise combat would end).

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
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Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:00:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

salem wrote:
> On 8 May 2005 23:51:12 -0700, "scrote" <mudz78@hotmail.com> scrawled:
>
> >
> >> make use of Marthe's ability.
> >
> >Give her OBT and use Darkness Within. Use a path and you are
> >essentially doing it for free (you do get the darkness blood between
> >combats, right?)
>
> yes. but no blood will have been moved to it if you didn't get to
> 'regular' strike resolution, which you don't if someone s:ce's.

Damn stupid normal strike resolution. It would have been a cool thing
to do I think.

-merto
>
>
> salem
> http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
> (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
!