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(LSJ) Pariah's flaw, and design questions

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Anonymous
May 8, 2005 5:02:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hello !

i'm playing Pariah with a fair success, but something struck me :
the wording "pariah cannot attempt undirected actions other than
hunting" also means pariah cannot recue himself from torpor.
right ?

as i think this assertion is right then...
i'm just wondering why he was designed like this. I mean, compared to
other mid cap rushers like Beast or Ellen Fence, he already has a
tremendous disadvantage (you must discard a master card each turn or
else he's quite useless)
I understand that, for some reason, the design team does not want him to
do undirected stuff like voting or playing shdow of the beast, or even
equipping but... It's the first vampire ever who is not able to rescue
himself (not spoking of julius ;)  ) which means if he's toasted you'll
have a very hard time having him back. Is Pariah such a threat in those
groupe 1/2 or 2/3 deck that he has to be toned down like this ? =)
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 5:02:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

reyda wrote:

> Hello !
>
> i'm playing Pariah with a fair success, but something struck me :
> the wording "pariah cannot attempt undirected actions other than
> hunting" also means pariah cannot recue himself from torpor.
> right ?

Yes.

> as i think this assertion is right then...
> i'm just wondering why he was designed like this. I mean, compared to
> other mid cap rushers like Beast or Ellen Fence, he already has a
> tremendous disadvantage (you must discard a master card each turn or
> else he's quite useless)
> I understand that, for some reason, the design team does not want him to
> do undirected stuff like voting or playing shdow of the beast, or even
> equipping but... It's the first vampire ever who is not able to rescue
> himself (not spoking of julius ;)  ) which means if he's toasted you'll
> have a very hard time having him back. Is Pariah such a threat in those
> groupe 1/2 or 2/3 deck that he has to be toned down like this ? =)

There are an infinite number of ways to design any given vampire.
Why choose one over all the others? Because one has to be chosen.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 5:02:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

reyda wrote:
> ...compared to
> other mid cap rushers like Beast or Ellen Fence, [Pariah] already has
a
> tremendous disadvantage (you must discard a master card each turn or
> else he's quite useless)

Pariah's special is only a disadvantage when it isn't an advantage. Use
him in decks with excess masters you want to get rid of later in the
game (Galaric's Legacy, Zillah's Valley, Info Highway, Parthenon) and
he's almost as good as the Barrens.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 5:02:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> reyda wrote:
>
> > Hello !
> >
> > i'm playing Pariah with a fair success, but something struck me :
> > the wording "pariah cannot attempt undirected actions other than
> > hunting" also means pariah cannot recue himself from torpor.
> > right ?
>
> Yes.
>
> > as i think this assertion is right then...
> > i'm just wondering why he was designed like this. I mean, compared
to
> > other mid cap rushers like Beast or Ellen Fence, he already has a
> > tremendous disadvantage (you must discard a master card each turn
or
> > else he's quite useless)
> > I understand that, for some reason, the design team does not want
him to
> > do undirected stuff like voting or playing shdow of the beast, or
even
> > equipping but... It's the first vampire ever who is not able to
rescue
> > himself (not spoking of julius ;)  ) which means if he's toasted
you'll
> > have a very hard time having him back. Is Pariah such a threat in
those
> > groupe 1/2 or 2/3 deck that he has to be toned down like this ? =)
>
> There are an infinite number of ways to design any given vampire.
> Why choose one over all the others? Because one has to be chosen.

I like my interpretation of how you design cards for this game. Its
inspired by other posts, but I'll state mention it here, too, because
of what you wrote above.

I asked you once about Nedal, The Careless. It was something like "Why
nec cel? Was their a design niche that needed a one cap with those two
disciplines?" And your response was "Why not?" Essentially. So I
crafted this little thought about how you design cards.

You just design stuff. You know. I'm thinking maybe you've got this
huge Xcel list of vampire cards, or maybe a giant wheel o' card text
and you kinda' pick at random what things should have. Then, after
you've designed it, if it doesn't break the game or the group, and if
it fills a card spot in a set, you print it. Am I right?

(OK, seriously though. I know you also designs things from the top
down... or is that bottom up? That is, think of things the meta needs
and print cards for them (disengange, though that shoulda' been printed
about 5 years ago...). Its just funny how whenever people ask you about
why you designed certain cards, you just give them a non-commital
answer, like "eh. I felt I outta'" Or "Because. Deal with it".)

~SV
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 5:18:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

There is still the hope for an advanced Pariah:

[Merged] Pariah can rescue himself from torpor ignoring the "no
undirected actions" limitation

:-))))))

--
johannes walch
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 8:06:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
| about 5 years ago...). Its just funny how whenever people ask you about
| why you designed certain cards, you just give them a non-commital
| answer, like "eh. I felt I outta'" Or "Because. Deal with it".)

I'm not certain LSJ will answer this, but I can -- because part of my
responsibilities at my own job are also design-oriented, and given that
my "audience" tends to be multiple different support groups, all of whom
think they know what's best for the product, the clients, and the
company, I can quite understand the rationale here. I use a variant of
it on a daily basis.

__ It's not an effective use of his time to provide a real answer. __

Yep, that sounds rude. But you know why? It's not that the time taken
to give the answer is significant -- it's that the chances of the
questioner and all other readers both agreeing, and more importantly,
shutting up about it are almost zero.

Since you've already started down the road of "answer", you're then
stuck responding to ALL the "but why? but what about? but that's
stupid?" questions, which take up way, way more time -- and you have no
guarantee the questioner will EVER agree with you. People like yourself
will lie in wait for a design decision you don't agree with and
immediately begin campaigning as to how YOU could've been done better,
even though you're likely to be dead wrong.

To sum up, by trying to seriously answer in the first place, all you do
is open the door to gallons of thought-free second-guessing by chirpers,
and then you spend a whole lot of time defending a decision that
frankly, there's no need to defend. The sales record of each of the
sets speaks for itself; clearly the Design Team is doing an excellent
job creating new sets, because the sets KEEP SELLING and people KEEP
PLAYING. When a set or particular associated product doesn't sell well,
or when hordes of people bail out of the game and cite a reason like
"Events make it too butt-ass random and it's no fun anymore", THEN it's
time to start second-guessing the designer. This sort of logic is, of
course, beyond the average chirper -- all he can see is that he would've
done it differently.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
May 8, 2005 9:01:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

My Pariah deck has a lot of weenies that Computer Hack bleed. When you
block, Paiah Hidden Lurkers you with Shadow of the Wolf for 6 and an
almost guaranteed second round. Throw in a taste and a wolf claws here
and there and he's Hmmm, Good.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 12:03:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Ummm...
Don't you mean hits for 2 + 3 = 5? Shadow of the wolf + 1 strength is
only on the additional strike, no?

I always wanted to make a haymaker+lucky blow+flesh of marble deck.
Well it seemed to like a good idea at the time.

Preston wrote:
> My Pariah deck has a lot of weenies that Computer Hack bleed. When
you
> block, Paiah Hidden Lurkers you with Shadow of the Wolf for 6 and an
> almost guaranteed second round. Throw in a taste and a wolf claws
here
> and there and he's Hmmm, Good.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 12:39:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Derek Ray wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> | about 5 years ago...). Its just funny how whenever people ask you
about
> | why you designed certain cards, you just give them a non-commital
> | answer, like "eh. I felt I outta'" Or "Because. Deal with it".)
>
> I'm not certain LSJ will answer this, but I can -- because part of my
> responsibilities at my own job are also design-oriented, and given
that
> my "audience" tends to be multiple different support groups, all of
whom
> think they know what's best for the product, the clients, and the
> company, I can quite understand the rationale here. I use a variant
of
> it on a daily basis.
>
> __ It's not an effective use of his time to provide a real answer. __

Yeah. You're right. I suppose it isn't a very effective use of his
time.

It'd be fun to know, once, just once, why he designs certain cards...
Like maybe he could answer one of these questions a month. Put a cap on
it. It'd be a fun read, and aspiring CCG designers would like the
information. :) 

> Yep, that sounds rude.

Heheh. And you're just the kind of guy to say it.

> To sum up, by trying to seriously answer in the first place, all you
do
> is open the door to gallons of thought-free second-guessing by
chirpers,

ooo. I've gotta' add that to my list of names I've been called by
old-timers-too-stuck-in-their-ways-to-have-a-good-time-poking-fun-at-things.
(oh wait... sorry. I guess I just name called... oops)

> and then you spend a whole lot of time defending a decision that
> frankly, there's no need to defend. The sales record of each of the
> sets speaks for itself; clearly the Design Team is doing an excellent
> job creating new sets, because the sets KEEP SELLING and people KEEP
> PLAYING.

Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job (not mentioning the
game's font change, icon misplacements, color printing mismatch, 'meh'
prize support (though better than none), apparent failure of
create-a-storyline tournaments, discountinuation of WoD1.0, apparent
inability to incorporate WoD2.0, and non existence of easy quick start
rules for noobs).

> When a set or particular associated product doesn't sell well,
> or when hordes of people bail out of the game and cite a reason like
> "Events make it too butt-ass random and it's no fun anymore",

I really thought that was going to happen more en mass... maybe I
should put up a poll about it... nah. Polls aren't really reliable...
I'll just go by local scene information... we lost 5 people. 3 came
back on later and we've gained another since. So no big deal...

> THEN it's
> time to start second-guessing the designer. This sort of logic is,
of
> course, beyond the average chirper -- all he can see is that he
would've
> done it differently.

Yes. My world is full of myself.

~SV - Chirper
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 1:10:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job (not mentioning the
> game's font change, icon misplacements, color printing mismatch,
'meh'
> prize support (though better than none), apparent failure of
> create-a-storyline tournaments, discountinuation of WoD1.0, apparent
> inability to incorporate WoD2.0, and non existence of easy quick
start
> rules for noobs).

I'm confused as to why you still play, since the game is so far in the
toilet.

John Eno
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 1:43:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Don't you mean hits for 2 + 3 = 5? Shadow of the wolf + 1 strength is

only on the additional strike, no? "

Good point. Maybe I should take it out.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 4:10:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Emmit Svenson a écrit :
> reyda wrote:
>
>>...compared to
>>other mid cap rushers like Beast or Ellen Fence, [Pariah] already has
>
> a
>
>>tremendous disadvantage (you must discard a master card each turn or
>>else he's quite useless)
>
>
> Pariah's special is only a disadvantage when it isn't an advantage. Use
> him in decks with excess masters you want to get rid of later in the
> game (Galaric's Legacy, Zillah's Valley, Info Highway, Parthenon) and
> he's almost as good as the Barrens.

i'm already doing this thanks.
the deck packs small cap !gangrels with protean.
i have some skills that i discard, and when a vamp hits torpor, i go eat
him, play gangrel conspiracy, and retrieves the master card from my ash
heap to put it on a vamp. Added Path of death and the soul to double the
weenie farming :) 
the deck is fairly ok, with some disguised Desert eagle to hose long
range fighters, but still... Parih is not the best rusher in the world,
i mean he cannot rescue the weenie, and cannot rescue himself. So i was
wondering what threat he would represent to be designed like this.

but well, i guess i'll never have an answer anyway.
it was just a burst of curiousity, i don't really care. =)
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 7:45:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

James Coupe wrote:
> In message <1115609951.162528.92760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
> >Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job (not mentioning the
> >game's font change, icon misplacements, color printing mismatch,
'meh'
> >prize support (though better than none),
>
> Erm, apparently you are desperately confused about the difference
> between the Design Team (who design cards) and any graphic designers
and
> artists that White Wolf employ.

Um... nothing. Damn. Coulda' sworn I'd edited my post to say "(not
mentioning WW's effects on the game's font change... etc..)". Cause I
knew... Just KNEW that someone like you would ruin perrfectly valid
points by deflecting peoples attention away from the issue and focusing
on my trivial little somewhat humourous paranthetical statement I'd
made...

> >discountinuation of WoD1.0,
>
> Nothing to do with the Design Team of V:TES! And V:TES is still set
in
> the oWoD and is, indeed, the only thing still running in it.

Is this a good thing?

> >apparent
> >inability to incorporate WoD2.0,
>
> V:TES is set in the oWoD, not the new WoD. People could kludge
together
> a V:TES/Superman hybrid if they wanted, but it wouldn't be any more
> appropriate. They're different settings with different styles, aims,
> motivations and moods, your apparent disbelief of this
notwithstanding.

I love everyone's over reaction to the differences in oWoD and the new
one... Its like you're almost buying in to some kind of propaganda
about their differences that was created to make you purchase the
product or something. :) 

It is true that they have different styles, aims, motivations and
moods.. but wouldn't it be possible to have those expressed in the
expansion? I mean, other VTES sets differ from one another in 'mood'
and 'aims' and what not, right?
>
> >and non existence of easy quick start
> >rules for noobs).
>
> In fact, this was tried in the past by WotC. And it died on its ass
> because the game needs the complexity it has to balance off the power
of
> stealth bleed against other more indirect strategies. Why duplicate
the
> effort, to have it die again? It is far, far better to teach players
> the game - which efforts like the downloadable playmat and the online
> tutorial are good for, as well as the demo packs of 30 cards which
keep
> the amount of tech they're exposed to low whilst keeping the rules
> impact high.

maybe that's just the thing... attempting to show this CCG to standard
working class lower tier of 'intellectual' ccgers who've tossed a few
games of YuGiOh and Marvel Vs around, and they have some serious issues
of attempting to play this game... I think its because the learning
curve was higher than the game play payoff...

> Come on, why, Mr Designer? WHY? Did this just come off your random
> Excel spreadsheet? What's your view of the WotC simplified rules and
> why they failed?

Sure. Why not. These are quesitons. And there are answers for them. Who
can answer them? Who WILL answer them? Why CAN'T they be answered?

~SV
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 11:38:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1115609951.162528.92760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
>Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job (not mentioning the
>game's font change, icon misplacements, color printing mismatch, 'meh'
>prize support (though better than none),

Erm, apparently you are desperately confused about the difference
between the Design Team (who design cards) and any graphic designers and
artists that White Wolf employ.

> apparent failure of
>create-a-storyline tournaments,

Some people ran them, some people didn't. What's that got to do with
the Design Team? I would be very surprised if the Create Your Own
Storyline tournaments had been a sure-fire success, as they rely on
tournament organizers also being good at thinking up something inventive
and unusual, yet still balanced and playable. Strangely, this is not as
easy as you might think, and you don't have a brand new promo card as a
draw for players.

>discountinuation of WoD1.0,

Nothing to do with the Design Team of V:TES! And V:TES is still set in
the oWoD and is, indeed, the only thing still running in it.

>apparent
>inability to incorporate WoD2.0,

V:TES is set in the oWoD, not the new WoD. People could kludge together
a V:TES/Superman hybrid if they wanted, but it wouldn't be any more
appropriate. They're different settings with different styles, aims,
motivations and moods, your apparent disbelief of this notwithstanding.

>and non existence of easy quick start
>rules for noobs).

In fact, this was tried in the past by WotC. And it died on its ass
because the game needs the complexity it has to balance off the power of
stealth bleed against other more indirect strategies. Why duplicate the
effort, to have it die again? It is far, far better to teach players
the game - which efforts like the downloadable playmat and the online
tutorial are good for, as well as the demo packs of 30 cards which keep
the amount of tech they're exposed to low whilst keeping the rules
impact high.

Come on, why, Mr Designer? WHY? Did this just come off your random
Excel spreadsheet? What's your view of the WotC simplified rules and
why they failed?

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 6:14:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
> On 9 May 2005 03:45:00 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
> <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> >discountinuation of WoD1.0,
> >>
> >> Nothing to do with the Design Team of V:TES! And V:TES is still
set
> >in
> >> the oWoD and is, indeed, the only thing still running in it.
> >
> >Is this a good thing?
>
> Why not?

Oh, you LSJ apprentice you are!

> >It is true that they have different styles, aims, motivations and
> >moods..
>
> Geez. They have different styles, aims, motivations and moods. What
> had been left as similarities? Systems and rules? Part of it is the
> same, part isn't.
> The conclusion is that almost everything is different. What's the
> point then in combining both?
>
>
> but wouldn't it be possible to have those expressed in the
> >expansion? I mean, other VTES sets differ from one another in 'mood'
> >and 'aims' and what not, right?
>
> All of these expansions have their differences, but they share the
> same main story arc and rules. nWoD does not.
>
> It's like saying that WW can do a Buffy expansion because the two
> games share the theme (vampires) and a few supernatural prowess
always
> attributed to vampires, or saying that they could try a M:tG
expansion
> because they have something in common regarding mechanics - tapping,
> directly attacking your adversary's life/pool, blocking etc. There
are
> a lot of other issues involved, from "mood" (as you say) to target
> market.

Answer me a few questions here...

Do VTR vamps make babies the same way (embrace)?
Do they have disciplines?
Do they drink blood and use this blood to increase their attributes and
fuel their disciplines?
Is blood Potency really THAT different from capacity that it couldn't
just be incorporated with a simple linear function?

Really... what IS so different about VTR that screams "I can't coexist
with VTM in a CCG setting!"? (well... other than WWs apparent statement
that they would not do so, despite the fact that I don't remeber them
saying this...)

~SV
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 8:26:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 9 May 2005 03:45:00 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
<vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> >discountinuation of WoD1.0,
>>
>> Nothing to do with the Design Team of V:TES! And V:TES is still set
>in
>> the oWoD and is, indeed, the only thing still running in it.
>
>Is this a good thing?

Why not?

>> >apparent
>> >inability to incorporate WoD2.0,
>>
>> V:TES is set in the oWoD, not the new WoD. People could kludge
>together
>> a V:TES/Superman hybrid if they wanted, but it wouldn't be any more
>> appropriate. They're different settings with different styles, aims,
>> motivations and moods, your apparent disbelief of this
>notwithstanding.
>
>I love everyone's over reaction to the differences in oWoD and the new
>one... Its like you're almost buying in to some kind of propaganda
>about their differences that was created to make you purchase the
>product or something. :) 

Old fan's base propaganda is still propaganda, and no different from
regular marketing propaganda. I have the same feeling that some are
buying old fan's anger about WW "killing the oWoD" to conclude -
sometimes without even reading the new books - that the nWoD is very
similar to the old one.

Both propaganda do not stand up unscathed from a careful observance of
the two scenarios.


>It is true that they have different styles, aims, motivations and
>moods..

Geez. They have different styles, aims, motivations and moods. What
had been left as similarities? Systems and rules? Part of it is the
same, part isn't.
The conclusion is that almost everything is different. What's the
point then in combining both?


but wouldn't it be possible to have those expressed in the
>expansion? I mean, other VTES sets differ from one another in 'mood'
>and 'aims' and what not, right?

All of these expansions have their differences, but they share the
same main story arc and rules. nWoD does not.

It's like saying that WW can do a Buffy expansion because the two
games share the theme (vampires) and a few supernatural prowess always
attributed to vampires, or saying that they could try a M:tG expansion
because they have something in common regarding mechanics - tapping,
directly attacking your adversary's life/pool, blocking etc. There are
a lot of other issues involved, from "mood" (as you say) to target
market.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V for Vendetta on the big screen!
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
May 9, 2005 9:57:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> > Pariah's special is only a disadvantage when it isn't an advantage.
Use
> > him in decks with excess masters you want to get rid of later in
the
> > game (Galaric's Legacy, Zillah's Valley, Info Highway, Parthenon)
and
> > he's almost as good as the Barrens.
>
> i'm already doing this thanks.
> the deck packs small cap !gangrels with protean.
> i have some skills that i discard, and when a vamp hits torpor, i go
eat
> him, play gangrel conspiracy, and retrieves the master card from my
ash
> heap to put it on a vamp. Added Path of death and the soul to double
the
> weenie farming :) 
> the deck is fairly ok, with some disguised Desert eagle to hose long
> range fighters, but still... Parih is not the best rusher in the
world,
> i mean he cannot rescue the weenie, and cannot rescue himself. So i
was
> wondering what threat he would represent to be designed like this.
>
> but well, i guess i'll never have an answer anyway.
> it was just a burst of curiousity, i don't really care. =)

You still have to discard masters for the hidden lurkers don't you?

Some things I've thought of for Pariah ===>


Pariah can be used for blocking - give him a Homonculous at the cost of
1 master discard. He can then untap/block/taste. Or block + Earth Meld
loops.

Pariah is a good stealth bleeder (pre + OBF + PRO) great stealth
disciplines. If he had for/FOR he could Force of Will bleed instead ...
hmmm this could be an angle.

If you make him Anarch you can Gear Up for stealth.

Of course with for he can Freak Drive.

You could make him an anarch, and use Powerbase: Los Angeles.

Use AUS vamps to Precognizant Mobility him. Then Homonculous, or Dual
Form at Minor to get multiple actions per round.

If you can give him 2 skill cards then you can use Emergency
Preparations or Mylan.

Using the Anarch angle you can Firebrand a 7+ cap and untap him that
way.

Lots of choices. Really depends on what you want to do with him.

David
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 9:58:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 8 May 2005 20:03:58 -0700, "kulaid871" <Kulaid871@yahoo.com>
scrawled:

>Ummm...
>Don't you mean hits for 2 + 3 = 5? Shadow of the wolf + 1 strength is
>only on the additional strike, no?
>
>I always wanted to make a haymaker+lucky blow+flesh of marble deck.
>Well it seemed to like a good idea at the time.

i thought haymaker gave you a strike you had to use later on. and
lucky blow thus could not be used.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 10:30:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

He can not Homonculous without Heidleburg Castle as he can not take
undirected actions. Nor can he dual form. He needs to be untapped to
Hidden Lurker.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 10:51:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

>> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
>> | about 5 years ago...). Its just funny how whenever people ask you
> about
>> | why you designed certain cards, you just give them a non-commital
>> | answer, like "eh. I felt I outta'" Or "Because. Deal with it".)
>>
>> I'm not certain LSJ will answer this, but I can -- because part of my
>> responsibilities at my own job are also design-oriented, and given
> that
>> my "audience" tends to be multiple different support groups, all of
> whom
>> think they know what's best for the product, the clients, and the
>> company, I can quite understand the rationale here. I use a variant
> of
>> it on a daily basis.
>>
>> __ It's not an effective use of his time to provide a real answer. __
>
> Yeah. You're right. I suppose it isn't a very effective use of his
> time.
>
> It'd be fun to know, once, just once, why he designs certain cards...
> Like maybe he could answer one of these questions a month. Put a cap on
> it. It'd be a fun read, and aspiring CCG designers would like the
> information. :) 

Also note that to err is human. If we knew what goes on behind the
curtains, there is a possibility that one (or two) angry dissatisfied
customer(s) would be right about a mistake the design team makes,
which would probably ruin their credibility.

The possible gain? Mental excercise for a few people who are going to
keep playing anyway because VTES is just so cool to bitch about. In
fact, given its complexity and peculiar play experience centered
around a subtle balance between five players, and history of former
abandonment and design team change I'd wager that it is one of the
best card games to be bitching about.

--
Bye,

Daneel
May 9, 2005 11:16:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Oops ... Yep Heidleburg will do it. Ignoring Dual Form he still has
heaps of ways to untap him without the whole Master Card deal.

David
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:25:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

James Coupe wrote:
> In message <1115666198.365383.45670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
> >Right. I only bitch because I love.
>
> Could you please, for the love of all that is unholy, do something
> constructive

Unholy AND constructive doesn't seem very... synonomous... isn't my
diabolical rantings more, unholy? So in which case, my love for unholy
ness seems abundant!

> instead of your incessant whining when things aren't
> exactly the same way you'd have done them? You really, really,
REALLY
> aren't a re-incarnation of Richard Garfield, and your motivations are
> highly, highly skewed.

What if I actually AM the spawn of richard garfeild?

Ok... I'm not...

but to show you that I DO try... here:

http://www.thelasombra.com/fanset_vermillian.txt

That's my recent attempt at constructive. All anyone did with that was
just piss on it mostly, and try to help in irrelevant ways. Anyhow, it
was a travisty, which I blame on the internet communities lack of ideas
and support for it... :)  (ah yes. The gentle art of scape goating)

I'm currently working on integrating VTR into a stand alone VTES
expansion with DJ_fengshui, and a card game with too much nudity in it.

More on the first one later...

Or by constructive, do you mean go to tournaments and win with dominate
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 5:09:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1115666198.365383.45670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
>Right. I only bitch because I love.

Could you please, for the love of all that is unholy, do something
constructive instead of your incessant whining when things aren't
exactly the same way you'd have done them? You really, really, REALLY
aren't a re-incarnation of Richard Garfield, and your motivations are
highly, highly skewed.

Thanks in advance.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:56:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

James Coupe wrote:
> In message <1115695511.895552.236490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
> >but to show you that I DO try... here:
> >
> >http://www.thelasombra.com/fanset_vermillian.txt
>
> Good lord, I'd never ever seen that. Even in the times at which I've
> taken it apart and provided feedback, at great length!
>
> Err...
>
>
> >That's my recent attempt at constructive. All anyone did with that
was
> >just piss on it mostly, and try to help in irrelevant ways.
>
> Yeah, right. Explaining why your mechanics don't and can't work
> properly is just pissing on it in irrelevant ways, and explaining why
a
> set of 400 cards with 5 per discipline (in one incarnation) is
really,
> really bad for draft is just pissing on it.
>
> You appear to have confused "pissing on it" with "well-founded
> criticism".

I seem to recall that your well founded criticism occured like AFTER I
made the set, and you didn't really provide me with any meaningful
alternative. You didn't point out anything GOOD about it, IIRC (which I
probably don't), either.

> It's this sort of whining, where you whine for people to do something
> about it, then carry on whining about it when people have explained
AT
> LENGTH why certain things are a problem, and continue advocating them
> without being able to address those points, that really don't help
you.
> For instance, see the long, detailed discussion of the problems with
> disciplineless fallback levels - then see you continuing to advocate
> them in recent threads, unamended, with all the same problems. Sigh.

Oh come on. How much does it REALLY kill to have this card?

Do not replace.
ANY (but must be a vampire): Press only to continue combat.
tha: Ranged strike only. strike: Steal one blood.
THA: As above but stealth two.

> You want feedback? Then get a grip and deal with it when you're
given
> it. Pouting and whining that people are pissing on it won't help
there,
> Mr "Designer". If you can't do that, don't expect anyone else to
> explain why they design certain vampires.

Ok, Mr "critic".

BTW. What have YOU done for the VTES community? :) 

> I want detailed explanations of why you selected EVERY CARD in your
fan-
> set. Why those discipline combinations? Why those inferior levels
of
> cards? Why those superior disciplines? Why? WHY? If you won't or
> can't provide detailed answers for every card, why should anyone
else?

Really? I'm glad you asked! I have reasons. The discipline combinations
were done to try to graft together multiple vampires in the same crypt,
I tried to maximize that... I just kinda' grabbed the inferior levels
of a lot of things in the regular game and copied them, only tweaked
them, same with the superiors. Some were just created, but I choose
them over other incarnations due to interaction with certain other
cards in the set... there may be a dozen or so cards that were thrown
in, 'just because'. ALl the vampires were completely random though...
mostly. I tried to maximize the number of Out of clan disciplines, and
tried to make them the wacky ones (ser obt, etc...) and tried to give
each of them meaningful specials that would assist with the clans and
mixed clans main strategies.

Would you like more? (granted, my reasons were reasons at the time, and
are probably full of errors due to my grand design attempt, and were
probably doomed to irrelevence because it probably truely IS impossible
to graft together all disciplines and most clans together in a 400 card
set. But at least I tried, foo').

> Also, it may be worth bearing in mind that one of the reasons you
can't
> get the explanations you want is that they're based on cards that
don't
> get printed. Why this version of a vampire? Well, we tried him like
> this, and like this, and like this, but this one seemed to work
better
> overall, but we don't want to tell you about the other similar
vampires
> we didn't print as we might be saving those up for printing in a
later
> expansion, with tweaks when we get it just right. And we do know
that
> when things from playtest have leaked (for instance) that LSJ has
posted
> that they're less likely to feature in future expansions.
>
> Sadly, you repeatedly and completely ignore the fact that White Wolf
are
> a business with an eye to the future. :-(

Poop on the future. What's their 20 year plan? (remember THAT thread?)

How woud YOU like me to contribute to the VTES community? What's
acceptable to you? How have YOU contributed to the VTES community? Is
that acceptable for ME to do?

~SV
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 10:47:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Derek Ray wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> | Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
> |
> |>>>Nothing to do with the Design Team of V:TES! And V:TES is still
> | set in the oWoD and is, indeed, the only thing still running in it.
> |>>
> |>>Is this a good thing?
> |>
> |>Why not?
> |
> | Oh, you LSJ apprentice you are!
>
> Jealousy?

Oh yeah. When I get to start explaining myself with those two words and
have people not question me again... that's TRUE power. ENvious of that
power. How does one obtain it? Game designer? Callous? President of
USA? Apathy?

> Well, let's see: V:TES is driving the old World of Darkness. As
soon
> as you drop V:TR in, you need to maintain continuity among the
continuum
> - -- something that was a big effort for WW when they acquired V:TES,
if
> you recall.

Yep. But they can have continuity within VTR and then continuity on the
VTM side. Two seperate continuities!. One great game! VTES! (it'll work
even better when they make WoD3.0 in 10 years...)

> They made it conform to current events in the WoD, lined it
> up properly, included a bunch of characters... obviously "world", to
> them, means "world". Gehenna happened, and now V:TES no longer has
to
> pick and choose which characters it can and can't include -- it can
put
> ANYTHING in it wants.

ANYTHING? Even VTR side sets?

> And you want to tie it to an ongoing story thread again by linking it
to
> V:TR? Wow, that's dumb.

Dumb, or PURE GENIOUS?!?

No it probably is dumb, but at least I'm toiling on something.. ya'll
are sitting there, building DECKS! Losers!

> insert clever quotation here

"Do you know where your towel is?"

~SV
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:49:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Hash: SHA1

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
| Derek Ray wrote:
|
|>__ It's not an effective use of his time to provide a real answer. __
|
| It'd be fun to know, once, just once, why he designs certain cards...
| Like maybe he could answer one of these questions a month. Put a cap on
| it. It'd be a fun read, and aspiring CCG designers would like the
| information. :) 

You don't get it. You can't just "put a cap on it". The harpies will
flock to the single question, and generate endless threads of garbage
related to that question. Look at how many people cite the formula for
creating vamps, and STILL try to pick apart vamps that somehow don't fit
that formula -- when LSJ himself said that it was only a guideline. You
see? Guideline... yet many people want to consider it holy writ.

And as far as "aspiring CCG designer" ... you have a long way to go
before you can even consider yourself an aspiring game designer,
honestly. You need a good solid grounding in what makes games "fun" and
"replayable" -- and your posts show you aren't really sure of what that
is yourself. CCG designer? That niche filled up long ago, and the wait
queue you're at the end of is longer than you could possibly imagine.
Besides, I suspect CCGs are on the way out right now. I doubt we'll
ever see another Pokemon, L5R or Shadowfist, much less a Magic or V:TES
- -- everything from here forward is likely to be just mass-produced
dreck. Oh well; time to look forward to whatever the next thing is.

|>To sum up, by trying to seriously answer in the first place, all you
| do
|>is open the door to gallons of thought-free second-guessing by
| chirpers,
|
| ooo. I've gotta' add that to my list of names I've been called by
|
old-timers-too-stuck-in-their-ways-to-have-a-good-time-poking-fun-at-things.
| (oh wait... sorry. I guess I just name called... oops)

More evidence that you don't get it. You don't fool anyone here by
retreating to your standard "oh, i was just kidding" defense when
someone kicks your arguments in the nuts and you realize you didn't have
a leg to stand on. You weren't kidding, you weren't poking fun; you
were in full-on whine/wheedle mode, and now you're all pissy because
what worked when you were 7 no longer works now, and you're not getting
what you want.

Such a shame; time to grow up already.

|>and then you spend a whole lot of time defending a decision that
|>frankly, there's no need to defend. The sales record of each of the
|>sets speaks for itself; clearly the Design Team is doing an excellent
|>job creating new sets, because the sets KEEP SELLING and people KEEP
|>PLAYING.

James has already chewed you up quite well on this one, but I can't resist.

| Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job (not mentioning the
| game's font change, icon misplacements, color printing mismatch, 'meh'

font change: responsibility of art staff. Show evidence that it
affected set sales?

Icon placements: responsibility of layout/art staff. What do you mean
by "misplaced"? Are you talking about the silver-dot problem on the
sleeves? Eh. That's minor. Good thing it didn't affect set sales any.

Color printing mismatch: responsibility of printer, but I have no idea
what you're talking about -- I don't remember any mismatches. It sounds
like you're mostly just making stuff up here.

| prize support (though better than none), apparent failure of

Prize support: WHINER. You deserve nothing for even bothering to
complain. "I don't get enough free stuff, someone call the waaaaambulance!"

| create-a-storyline tournaments, discountinuation of WoD1.0, apparent

Create-a-Storyline not integral to set sales or continued existence of
game; fault squarely placed on fans who don't give enough of a damn to,
well, create a storyline. =)

Discontinuation of WoD 1.0 not relevant to V:TES, except that V:TES is
now the flagship and can drive the WoD, instead of events in the WoD
driving it (Gehenna). This is actually a GOOD thing for V:TES, and you
list it as bad? You desperately need some perspective on reality.

| inability to incorporate WoD2.0, and non existence of easy quick start

Inability is quite the wrong word; the design team has chosen not to so
far, and that's all you can say. Has yet to be proven that it's a bad
thing, considering that V:TES is supposedly writing the final story for
the WoD 1.0. Given the background of WoD 2.0 and 1.0, it would actually
seem to be a GOOD thing since vampires' relation to the world looks to
be far different in 2.0.

| rules for noobs).

You mean the demo decks, which do exist, were printed, and work just
fine for teaching noobs?

Oh, yeah. That's right; you're just talking out your ass with no actual
knowledge. Quick start rules don't work because of the nature of the
game. The demo decks, on the other hand, work just fine. A true
designer discovers solutions appropriate to ALL facets of the problem,
not just the obvious ones.

|>When a set or particular associated product doesn't sell well,
|>or when hordes of people bail out of the game and cite a reason like
|>"Events make it too butt-ass random and it's no fun anymore",
|
| I really thought that was going to happen more en mass... maybe I
| should put up a poll about it... nah. Polls aren't really reliable...

You're right, polls aren't reliable. Easier just to look around and see
how many people are still playing. Oh yeah. Lots.

|>time to start second-guessing the designer. This sort of logic is,
| of course, beyond the average chirper -- all he can see is that he
| would've
|>done it differently.
|
| Yes. My world is full of myself.

Yes, that is obvious to all of us. Hint: People who are this
self-absorbed don't usually get jobs as game designers.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:51:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1115695511.895552.236490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
>but to show you that I DO try... here:
>
>http://www.thelasombra.com/fanset_vermillian.txt

Good lord, I'd never ever seen that. Even in the times at which I've
taken it apart and provided feedback, at great length!

Err...


>That's my recent attempt at constructive. All anyone did with that was
>just piss on it mostly, and try to help in irrelevant ways.

Yeah, right. Explaining why your mechanics don't and can't work
properly is just pissing on it in irrelevant ways, and explaining why a
set of 400 cards with 5 per discipline (in one incarnation) is really,
really bad for draft is just pissing on it.

You appear to have confused "pissing on it" with "well-founded
criticism".

It's this sort of whining, where you whine for people to do something
about it, then carry on whining about it when people have explained AT
LENGTH why certain things are a problem, and continue advocating them
without being able to address those points, that really don't help you.
For instance, see the long, detailed discussion of the problems with
disciplineless fallback levels - then see you continuing to advocate
them in recent threads, unamended, with all the same problems. Sigh.

You want feedback? Then get a grip and deal with it when you're given
it. Pouting and whining that people are pissing on it won't help there,
Mr "Designer". If you can't do that, don't expect anyone else to
explain why they design certain vampires.

I want detailed explanations of why you selected EVERY CARD in your fan-
set. Why those discipline combinations? Why those inferior levels of
cards? Why those superior disciplines? Why? WHY? If you won't or
can't provide detailed answers for every card, why should anyone else?


Also, it may be worth bearing in mind that one of the reasons you can't
get the explanations you want is that they're based on cards that don't
get printed. Why this version of a vampire? Well, we tried him like
this, and like this, and like this, but this one seemed to work better
overall, but we don't want to tell you about the other similar vampires
we didn't print as we might be saving those up for printing in a later
expansion, with tweaks when we get it just right. And we do know that
when things from playtest have leaked (for instance) that LSJ has posted
that they're less likely to feature in future expansions.

Sadly, you repeatedly and completely ignore the fact that White Wolf are
a business with an eye to the future. :-(

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:54:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Screaming Vermillian wrote:
|>In message <1115609951.162528.92760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
|>Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
|>
|>>Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job (not mentioning the
|>>game's font change, icon misplacements, color printing mismatch,
|
| Um... nothing. Damn. Coulda' sworn I'd edited my post to say "(not
| mentioning WW's effects on the game's font change... etc..)". Cause I
| knew... Just KNEW that someone like you would ruin perrfectly valid
| points by deflecting peoples attention away from the issue and focusing
| on my trivial little somewhat humourous paranthetical statement I'd
| made...

....More hiding behind "I was just funnin', officer! No, really!"

That said, what issue are you talking about? If you remove your
highly-inaccurate parenthetical statement from that paragraph, we are
left with: "Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job." Do you
think they aren't? Do you have the balls to come out and say you think
LSJ is doing poorly and you could do better? You always spend a lot of
time hinting around the issue, but I've noticed you just never quite get
up the cojones to come out and say it. Not surprising, really.

Hint: Grownups have the courage to say what they mean in plain,
straightforward language.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:59:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
| Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
|
|>>>Nothing to do with the Design Team of V:TES! And V:TES is still
| set in the oWoD and is, indeed, the only thing still running in it.
|>>
|>>Is this a good thing?
|>
|>Why not?
|
| Oh, you LSJ apprentice you are!

Jealousy?

| Really... what IS so different about VTR that screams "I can't coexist
| with VTM in a CCG setting!"? (well... other than WWs apparent statement
| that they would not do so, despite the fact that I don't remeber them
| saying this...)

Well, let's see: V:TES is driving the old World of Darkness. As soon
as you drop V:TR in, you need to maintain continuity among the continuum
- -- something that was a big effort for WW when they acquired V:TES, if
you recall. They made it conform to current events in the WoD, lined it
up properly, included a bunch of characters... obviously "world", to
them, means "world". Gehenna happened, and now V:TES no longer has to
pick and choose which characters it can and can't include -- it can put
ANYTHING in it wants.

And you want to tie it to an ongoing story thread again by linking it to
V:TR? Wow, that's dumb.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
May 10, 2005 1:31:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

quetzalcoatl a écrit :

> Some things I've thought of for Pariah ===>
>
>
> Pariah can be used for blocking - give him a Homonculous at the cost of
> 1 master discard. He can then untap/block/taste. Or block + Earth Meld
> loops.

he cannot do undirected action, so no recruit for him (as someone else
stated.).
Ar you goign to block with a vamp which has no real intercept discipline
? not a so good idea since a 3 cap like Chandler is better for the job.

> Pariah is a good stealth bleeder (pre + OBF + PRO) great stealth
> disciplines. If he had for/FOR he could Force of Will bleed instead ...
> hmmm this could be an angle.

mmm... a bleed for 3 at stealth can be easliy achieved with 3 caps like
lena rowe too :) 

not to mention the force of will angle would be very difficult to
achieve since pariah cannot attempt undirected actions (this includes
rescuing himself or playing movement of the slow body stuff)


> If you make him Anarch you can Gear Up for stealth.

you have to use a master card, but yes it's feasible.

the rest of your suggestion are just plain fantasy : who wants to make
his deck revolve around a 6 cap with such drawbacks ? If you really want
the rush, use beast, ellen fence or tariq... They are more solid on many
points :) 
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:00:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 10 May 2005 07:12:13 -0700, Screaming Vermillian
<vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Yes. I think that, given a few more years of CCG experience and were it
> to be my full time job that I cared about, I could do a decent job of
> designing cards for VTES. Better than LSJ? Probably not, but different,
> yes. Which might just be what VTES needs. Or it doesn't. It really is
> tough for me to determine what VTES needs, I just know that it lacks, s
> I create, until what I've created seems to fulfill what it lacks.

You're gonna get busted for this. Until that time though, consider how
LSJ has shown remarkable flexibility when designing the sets. I suspect
very little that leaves his hands are stuff "he'd personally like to be
in the ccg". It's stuff he believes would make the CCG better. If he
sees an idea that is beneficial to the game, he is above pride in
incorporating it. He is also doing a good job delegating parts of his
desing job to invite some more creativity and some freash ideas.

The fact that he is an absoulte bullshit factory when it comes to Net-
-Reping is an entirely different issue, one that I suspect has more
to do with his cynical personality and immense exposure to VTES
players who seem to know everything better than him (plus me).

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:03:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 10 May 2005 08:49:43 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:

> | create-a-storyline tournaments, discountinuation of WoD1.0, apparent
>
> Create-a-Storyline not integral to set sales or continued existence of
> game; fault squarely placed on fans who don't give enough of a damn to,
> well, create a storyline. =)
>
> Discontinuation of WoD 1.0 not relevant to V:TES, except that V:TES is
> now the flagship and can drive the WoD, instead of events in the WoD
> driving it (Gehenna). This is actually a GOOD thing for V:TES, and you
> list it as bad? You desperately need some perspective on reality.

Would you please explain why you think this is a "GOOD" thing?

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:34:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1115734333.481740.249090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Screaming Vermillian <vermillian69@yahoo.com> writes:
>Yes. I think that, given a few more years of CCG experience and were it
>to be my full time job that I cared about, I could do a decent job of
>designing cards for VTES.

Based on the cards you've provided so far and your general attitude:

No, you couldn't. Quit fooling yourself.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:48:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <opsqkhjsu4o6j3lh@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <daniel@eposta.hu>
writes:
>On Tue, 10 May 2005 08:49:43 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>> Discontinuation of WoD 1.0 not relevant to V:TES, except that V:TES is
>> now the flagship and can drive the WoD, instead of events in the WoD
>> driving it (Gehenna). This is actually a GOOD thing for V:TES, and you
>> list it as bad? You desperately need some perspective on reality.
>
>Would you please explain why you think this is a "GOOD" thing?

<IANADR>

Here's one shot at it:

The presence of a continuous, evolving storyline with a desire to tie
things in across multiple product lines (e.g. the "Year of the..." stuff
that WW did) means that V:TES can get given something inappropriate as a
theme - after all, it's only one out of a dozen product lines.
Certainly, other product lines could suffer in the same way but talented
writers can tell a well-crafted story to square any circles. Or, if
that's not possible, at least make them a little more pointy. This is
less easy with card games where an overall competitive balance is
necessary and, unlike in an RPG, it's difficult to intentionally
hamstring certain things without printing pretty wallpaper.

On a smaller scale, this can cause some major headaches for players.
For instance, look at the "death" of the Tremere Antitribu. This
worked into the RPG as a really nice plot. In the CCG, it caused quite
a few upsets as people really wanted new !Tremere who were, as far as
the card game is concerned, one of the staples of the game.

As it stood, it worked out okay in the end, though it still caused some
minor upsets - and the designers were able to do a good job. But would
I rather a decision could have been made which was based solely on what
was good for V:TES? Absolutely.

</IANADR>

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 4:29:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Daneel wrote:
| On Tue, 10 May 2005 08:49:43 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
|> Discontinuation of WoD 1.0 not relevant to V:TES, except that V:TES is
|> now the flagship and can drive the WoD, instead of events in the WoD
|> driving it (Gehenna). This is actually a GOOD thing for V:TES, and you
|> list it as bad? You desperately need some perspective on reality.
|
| Would you please explain why you think this is a "GOOD" thing?

Until Gehenna, V:TES was chained to the World of Darkness very closely.
~ This meant that as things happened in the WoD, they'd be reflected in
V:TES. The overall "theme" of the WoD couldn't be violated, so certain
things could NEVER be introduced in V:TES; note how the Tremere Anti
took forever to actually show up? How about Abominations? (Not popular
in the WoD canon due to the 'i embrace the Chair Leg' syndrome). The
signature characters from the novel series? And of course the entire
Gehenna expansion was mandatory due to the storyline push at that time.

Now, V:TES is in the driver's seat. They can't depart TOO far from the
basic theme of the World of Darkness -- but they can certainly explore
some of the lesser-known facets that aren't part of the main line.
We're seeing more mages and hunters, for example, and more of a lot of
things -- characters that can be brought back even though they're dead
in the WoD (although that was done a couple times anyway). Who knows?
There's a lot of written material out there that can be used as a
sourcebook.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:39:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <UcqdnZns14lK6xzfRVn-vQ@giganews.com>, Derek Ray
<lorimer@yahoo.com> writes:
>I think first, I might be inclined to ask if
>anyone wanted an assload of string.

Possibly you could find a hobo somewhere who'd trade it for those once-
a-morning blowjobs you want?

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:45:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <LeidncbRZ8yLFxzfRVn-jg@giganews.com>, Derek Ray
<lorimer@yahoo.com> writes:
>We're seeing more mages and hunters, for example, and more of a lot of
>things -- characters that can be brought back even though they're dead
>in the WoD (although that was done a couple times anyway).

I've always been mildly in favour of a "Hunters Hunted" themed
expansion. Not that you could get away with it for an entire expansion,
most likely - unless it was one of the small releases WW sometimes do to
keep things on shelves and retailers lists etc., perhaps. But a set
with a fun chunk of killer[0] allies would be teh c00l.

Also, campaign with your local Congressman to have a stolen and re-
programmed HIT Mark in the game. Yes, I know it's from the Technocracy
and they're hard to work into the Jyhad properly, but I want BIG KILLER
ROBOTS WITH LASERS and I want them RIGHT NOW.



[0] By which I mean "killers", vampire hunters etc., rather than "super
wonderful so everything else is teh sux0r".

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:41:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 11 May 2005 00:29:07 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Daneel wrote:
> | On Tue, 10 May 2005 08:49:43 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> |
> |> Discontinuation of WoD 1.0 not relevant to V:TES, except that V:TES is
> |> now the flagship and can drive the WoD, instead of events in the WoD
> |> driving it (Gehenna). This is actually a GOOD thing for V:TES, and
> you
> |> list it as bad? You desperately need some perspective on reality.
> |
> | Would you please explain why you think this is a "GOOD" thing?
>
> Until Gehenna, V:TES was chained to the World of Darkness very closely.
> ~ This meant that as things happened in the WoD, they'd be reflected in
> V:TES. The overall "theme" of the WoD couldn't be violated, so certain
> things could NEVER be introduced in V:TES; note how the Tremere Anti
> took forever to actually show up? How about Abominations? (Not popular
> in the WoD canon due to the 'i embrace the Chair Leg' syndrome). The
> signature characters from the novel series? And of course the entire
> Gehenna expansion was mandatory due to the storyline push at that time.
>
> Now, V:TES is in the driver's seat. They can't depart TOO far from the
> basic theme of the World of Darkness -- but they can certainly explore
> some of the lesser-known facets that aren't part of the main line.
> We're seeing more mages and hunters, for example, and more of a lot of
> things -- characters that can be brought back even though they're dead
> in the WoD (although that was done a couple times anyway). Who knows?
> There's a lot of written material out there that can be used as a
> sourcebook.

Sorry, this reasoning is pretty unconvincing.

VTES can't depart too far, but they no longer need to follow closely?

Bloodlines featured the Ahrimanes (dead bloodline) and noone complained
- due to the fact that VTES is supposed to be open-ended in that each
game is supposed to have its own "storyline". The cards only allow
that. Similarly, the Ravnos of canon were extinct (okay, reduced to
bloodlinehood) since quite some time. Result? The "Week of Nightmares"
card that allows certain games to replay the week of nightmares - but
Final Nights Ravnos weren't scarce, and weren't any fewer in numbers
than the other indie clans. Same with Gehenna and lots of other parts.

The point is quite simple. Due to the freedom of interpretation
(bringing stuff from a fictional world with a chronological storyline
into a backward-compatible card game) I don't really think the VtM (or
WoD) canon really *pushed* VTES design in any unpleasant way. The only
exception is the termination of the WoD itself (Time of Judgement)
that inspired the Gehenna expansion and the Gehenna cards themselves
(of which I have little fondness).

In fact, I'm not sure that the food for thought the original canonical
storyline presented will not be amiss in future sets. With all due
respect, VTES is designed by card game designers, whereas the
storyline was (theoretically) written by people who were
professionals in that. I don't fear for the game balance, just the
originality of the theme. Of course, this only comes up once the
designers decide to converge away from the ideas and concepts found
in existing oWoD supplements.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:41:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Daneel wrote:
| On Wed, 11 May 2005 00:29:07 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
|> Now, V:TES is in the driver's seat. They can't depart TOO far from the
|> basic theme of the World of Darkness -- but they can certainly explore
|> some of the lesser-known facets that aren't part of the main line.
|> We're seeing more mages and hunters, for example, and more of a lot of
|> things -- characters that can be brought back even though they're dead
|> in the WoD (although that was done a couple times anyway). Who knows?
|> There's a lot of written material out there that can be used as a
|> sourcebook.
|
| Sorry, this reasoning is pretty unconvincing.

Waaambulance for you too?

| VTES can't depart too far, but they no longer need to follow closely?

Right. In other words, they still need to have the primary focus on
vampires, the Masquerade is still quite a primary concern, and the
Methuselahs are still behind the scenes manipulating events. It's a big
social almost-out-in-the-open backstabbing affair of modern intrigue.

I doubt V:TR is very much like this at all, given the circumstances it's
based off of (I really haven't bothered to look at it). There you go.

| The point is quite simple. Due to the freedom of interpretation
| (bringing stuff from a fictional world with a chronological storyline
| into a backward-compatible card game) I don't really think the VtM (or
| WoD) canon really *pushed* VTES design in any unpleasant way. The only

Perhaps it was simply made more pleasant than it could have been due to
skill on the part of the Design Team. Trust me, WoD canon had a massive
influence in the direction of V:TES from the moment WW took over the
reins again.

- --
Derek

occasionally feeds the trolls

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Anonymous
May 11, 2005 6:51:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Derek Ray wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Daneel wrote:
> | On Wed, 11 May 2005 00:29:07 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> |
> |> Now, V:TES is in the driver's seat. They can't depart TOO far from the
> |> basic theme of the World of Darkness -- but they can certainly explore
> |> some of the lesser-known facets that aren't part of the main line.
> |> We're seeing more mages and hunters, for example, and more of a lot of
> |> things -- characters that can be brought back even though they're dead
> |> in the WoD (although that was done a couple times anyway). Who knows?
> |> There's a lot of written material out there that can be used as a
> |> sourcebook.
> |
> | Sorry, this reasoning is pretty unconvincing.
>
> Waaambulance for you too?
>
> | VTES can't depart too far, but they no longer need to follow closely?
>
> Right. In other words, they still need to have the primary focus on
> vampires, the Masquerade is still quite a primary concern, and the
> Methuselahs are still behind the scenes manipulating events. It's a big
> social almost-out-in-the-open backstabbing affair of modern intrigue.

But it already has deviated from that starting point. Players can
influence some extremely potent named kindred (Augustus Giovanni for
generation, Ur-Shulgri for age, the Inner Circle for
behind-the-scenes-power - the IC were never named in the RPG afaik).

The thought of a Methusalah controlling such creatures is far fetched.
Indeed, these kindred are the ones the player was supposed to represent
in the beginning.

The Red List mechanic is also an example of a deviation. The Camarilla
doesn't really give a damn if some Sabbat cardinal thinks Cock Robin is
a criminal...

Players have screamed for equal opportunities for independent clans in
terms of crypt material. But in the old WoD there simply were more
Brujah than Ravnos.

In that setting a young brujah punk doesn't just jump on the prince and
rips his head off either.

It is all good things. The card game is not the RPG. Never has been and
never will be.

The RPG has provided inspiration to VTES - good as well as bad -
opinions on the expansions are hardly uniform. Personally I feel rather
relieved that VTES doesn't have to deal with more RPG stuff like Gehenna.

Frede
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 9:51:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 11 May 2005 08:22:21 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:

> | The point is quite simple. Due to the freedom of interpretation
> | (bringing stuff from a fictional world with a chronological storyline
> | into a backward-compatible card game) I don't really think the VtM (or
> | WoD) canon really *pushed* VTES design in any unpleasant way. The only
>
> Perhaps it was simply made more pleasant than it could have been due to
> skill on the part of the Design Team. Trust me, WoD canon had a massive
> influence in the direction of V:TES from the moment WW took over the
> reins again.

I'll try to use simple words.

The design team has shown its skill in incorporating any canonical events.
That is, it could design cards around WoD concepts.

It has shown no skill in inventing canonical events to incorporate in the
game. Nor should it be skilled at that thing; that is not about designing
cards, but rather creating a foundation of concepts to be used in the
game.

> - --
> Derek
>
> occasionally trolls

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 10:27:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

kushiel wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > Oh yes. The design team is doing a wonderful job (not mentioning
the
> > game's font change, icon misplacements, color printing mismatch,
> 'meh'
> > prize support (though better than none), apparent failure of
> > create-a-storyline tournaments, discountinuation of WoD1.0,
apparent
> > inability to incorporate WoD2.0, and non existence of easy quick
> start
> > rules for noobs).
>
> I'm confused as to why you still play, since the game is so far in
the
> toilet.

(while I'm on a fast computer I'll go back and answer some of these
questions).

I kid because I love.

~SV
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 10:31:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
> On 9 May 2005 14:14:13 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
> <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
> >> On 9 May 2005 03:45:00 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
> >> <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Why not?
> >
> >Oh, you LSJ apprentice you are!
>
> Some decisions are as good as others until someone points out why one
> is not feasible. In this regard, I'm with LSJ.

So if it ain't broke, don't explain?

> >Do VTR vamps make babies the same way (embrace)?
>
> It depends on what you're asking for. They drain blood and give a
> little bit of it back.
> But now it requires a "great force of will" to do it - i.e., spend a
> point of permanent Willpower. One could easily use this as an excuse
> to change the way "embrace cards" work.

Yeah, but they make babies by expending some of their own blood. Same
thing in VTES (ok.. trophy progeny is a bit different) and VTM.

> >Do they have disciplines?
> >Do they drink blood and use this blood to increase their attributes
and
> >fuel their disciplines?
>
> Of course yes. But that is not the point yet. Again, you're sticking
> to the similarities to cloud the perception of fundamental
> differences.
> And indeed these similarities are nothing more than a given in any
> vampires story. Vampires have powers, they consume blood.

meh... it was never apparent to me that Anne rice vamps used their
blood for powers, just that their blood GRANTED them powers... Same
thing with Blade...

> >Is blood Potency really THAT different from capacity that it
couldn't
> >just be incorporated with a simple linear function?
>
> Yes.

Yeah, but you could be like "blood potency 1 makes 1-3 caps 2 makes 4-6
3 makes 7-8 4 makes 9 5 makes 10 caps anything higher and you get
weirder vamps... or whatever.

> >Really... what IS so different about VTR that screams "I can't
coexist
> >with VTM in a CCG setting!"? (well... other than WWs apparent
statement
> >that they would not do so, despite the fact that I don't remeber
them
> >saying this...)
>
>
> It does not "screams" that it can't coexist with VtM. It is just
> different enough to cause more trouble than it's worth - that's all.

Well, seeing as no one has really tried yet (that I know of) we'll see
when it happens. I am working on it currently, so I'll let you know
what kinda road blocks I hit... Not like I'm the best designer in the
world though or anything...

~SV
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 12:30:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 9 May 2005 14:14:13 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
<vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
>> On 9 May 2005 03:45:00 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
>> <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why not?
>
>Oh, you LSJ apprentice you are!

Some decisions are as good as others until someone points out why one
is not feasible. In this regard, I'm with LSJ.


>Do VTR vamps make babies the same way (embrace)?

It depends on what you're asking for. They drain blood and give a
little bit of it back.
But now it requires a "great force of will" to do it - i.e., spend a
point of permanent Willpower. One could easily use this as an excuse
to change the way "embrace cards" work.


>Do they have disciplines?
>Do they drink blood and use this blood to increase their attributes and
>fuel their disciplines?

Of course yes. But that is not the point yet. Again, you're sticking
to the similarities to cloud the perception of fundamental
differences.
And indeed these similarities are nothing more than a given in any
vampires story. Vampires have powers, they consume blood.


>Is blood Potency really THAT different from capacity that it couldn't
>just be incorporated with a simple linear function?

Yes.


>Really... what IS so different about VTR that screams "I can't coexist
>with VTM in a CCG setting!"? (well... other than WWs apparent statement
>that they would not do so, despite the fact that I don't remeber them
>saying this...)
>~SV

It does not "screams" that it can't coexist with VtM. It is just
different enough to cause more trouble than it's worth - that's all.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V for Vendetta on the big screen!
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 3:40:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

FC wrote:
> The RPG has provided inspiration to VTES - good as well as bad -
> opinions on the expansions are hardly uniform. Personally I feel
rather
> relieved that VTES doesn't have to deal with more RPG stuff like
Gehenna.

right. Now VTES is free of the VTM bonds and can go do something else
entirely (cyber vampires of the 24th century?) or something different,
but simple (vampires giving up their vampireness and turning into
something else... like soulfulll vampires ala angel from buffy the
vampire slayer. Golconda if you will, but different...).

~SV
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 4:49:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 12 May 2005 06:31:40 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
<vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
>> On 9 May 2005 14:14:13 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
>> <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote:
>> >> On 9 May 2005 03:45:00 -0700, "Screaming Vermillian"
>> >> <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why not?
>> >
>> >Oh, you LSJ apprentice you are!
>>
>> Some decisions are as good as others until someone points out why one
>> is not feasible. In this regard, I'm with LSJ.
>
>So if it ain't broke, don't explain?

Why should? To appeal to everyone's will? That is impossible.Sometimes
you choose because you have to choose.


>> It depends on what you're asking for. They drain blood and give a
>> little bit of it back.
>> But now it requires a "great force of will" to do it - i.e., spend a
>> point of permanent Willpower. One could easily use this as an excuse
>> to change the way "embrace cards" work.
>
>Yeah, but they make babies by expending some of their own blood. Same
>thing in VTES (ok.. trophy progeny is a bit different) and VTM.

Again until it goes through that barrier you're putting in this part
of the discussion: pointing out similarities won't wipe of the
fundamental differences. One still have to take account to the
differences. Just ignoring them because you want to is no way to
advance the idea.


>> >Do they have disciplines?
>> >Do they drink blood and use this blood to increase their attributes
>and
>> >fuel their disciplines?
>>
>> Of course yes. But that is not the point yet. Again, you're sticking
>> to the similarities to cloud the perception of fundamental
>> differences.
>> And indeed these similarities are nothing more than a given in any
>> vampires story. Vampires have powers, they consume blood.
>
>meh... it was never apparent to me that Anne rice vamps used their
>blood for powers, just that their blood GRANTED them powers... Same
>thing with Blade...

That is implicit. If Blade or Anne Rice vampires don't expend blood to
empower them (or something else), why do they keep drinking it?
If it's just so that they remain vampires and their dead bodies do not
crumble to dust, how come they don't explode in greasy bloody-red fat?

Anyway, the concept of expeding blood is a given and a good
explanation for that issue, and a great mechanic for an RPG based on
vampires. The fact that it was maitained don't automatically make V:tR
the same as V:tM.


>> >Is blood Potency really THAT different from capacity that it
>couldn't
>> >just be incorporated with a simple linear function?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>Yeah, but you could be like "blood potency 1 makes 1-3 caps 2 makes 4-6
>3 makes 7-8 4 makes 9 5 makes 10 caps anything higher and you get
>weirder vamps... or whatever.

One could do what one wants. It does not make everything one does a
good idea.


>> >Really... what IS so different about VTR that screams "I can't
>coexist
>> >with VTM in a CCG setting!"? (well... other than WWs apparent
>statement
>> >that they would not do so, despite the fact that I don't remeber
>them
>> >saying this...)
>
>> It does not "screams" that it can't coexist with VtM. It is just
>> different enough to cause more trouble than it's worth - that's all.
>
>Well, seeing as no one has really tried yet (that I know of) we'll see
>when it happens. I am working on it currently, so I'll let you know
>what kinda road blocks I hit... Not like I'm the best designer in the
>world though or anything...
>~SV

See, I'm not one trying to make you give up on your idea. I'm just
baffled by the assumption that the two games have that many
similarities and that it won't ruin somewhat the feel for V:tES as it
is now. To make a parallel, I do not think that Kindred of the East is
feasible as a V:tES expansion, but I'd like to play with the
Cathayans. So if you'd manage to try to design a fan set for it, you'd
see me pointing out many things, but if you suceed, more power to you,
I'd be the first to play it - just don't expect that I will suddenly
think it's feasible without a good argument and a bunch of wonderful
conversion ideas. And I don't see that many conversion ideas at all,
much less good ones - just a bunch of "but they do drink blood also!
why can't we mix? let us mix!" cries.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V for Vendetta on the big screen!
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 7:13:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
>
> Actually, it's a rhetorical device to illustrate the shortcomings of
> the original question by way of parallel.
>
> To wit:
>
> Itchy: Why is the crypt minimum 12 instead of 13?
> Drone: Why should it not be 12?
>
Okay, since I at least partly agree with the original poster (in so
much as I think Pariah is almost unfairly penalized, but not
necessarily that you need to or should explain the costing behind any
given card to us), I'll rephrase...

Pariah is a 6 cap with 6 points of disciplines (I don't think he has a
particularly useful 6 points, since it seems like you could use him as
either of 2 vampires that have 3 points - pre OBF or pot PRO, but a lot
of vamps are like that, so we'll ignore it). So that part is balanced.
In addition, he has:

+1 hand damage
built in rush

Scarce
no undirected actions
does not untap normally

>From looking at Beast, the built in rush plus no undirected actions
seem to cancel out in cost(+1 pt, -1 pt). +1 hand damage is 1.5 pts,
Scarce seems to be about -1 pt (although the True Brujah and Salubri
that have it both have access to a very powerful unique clan
discipline, which Abominations do not; also all of the BL scarce vamps
have very nice, pretty unique special abilities), and the untap
restriction seems like it's worth at least -1.5, maybe -2.

So it would seem that Pariah is a 6 cap with (6 - 1 - 1 - 1.5 + 1.5 +
1) = only 5 points worth of stuff. Granted there's some fudging going
on in there, but all-in-all, he seems a little weak and not really be
"special" enough compared to the Scarce clans we got in BL. I know a
lot of people feel the same way about Lorrie Dunsirn, and I also lump
Allonzo in the same category. Even as a vampire with built-in rush,
you look at him and then think, "there are better vampires to do this
job", with better combat disciplines, fewer restrictions, etc.
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 8:36:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Emmit Svenson" <emmitsvenson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115938896.031542.283840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Then again, the Abominations don't share many disciplines, have no clan
> cards, and are split among three groups. Scarce is scarcely a
> limitation for them because you're unlikely to want to include more
> than one Abomination in a crypt.

More to the point, I think, is that they're *like* something else which
is not in their scarce clan. True Brujah, for instance, are most alike
to other True Brujah so their scarcity is more of a penalty than, say,
Allonzo who can be fairly easily played in a Followers of Set clan
deck.

Myself, I'd like to see Abomination clan cards issued (perhaps some
slightly different but fairly basic common combat card on the order
of Leathery Hide) just because I think it would be neat. For what
that's worth.

Fred
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 12:11:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
>
> More to the point, I think, is that they're *like* something else
which
> is not in their scarce clan. True Brujah, for instance, are most
alike
> to other True Brujah so their scarcity is more of a penalty than,
say,
> Allonzo who can be fairly easily played in a Followers of Set clan
> deck.
>
But Allonzo is probably the best Abomination, and still doesn't fit
that well with FoS, since he has no presence and can't play Corruption.
You'd have to use him more in a deck that concentrates on Temptation
and Form of Corruption, or in an Anarch deck with Reformation. And
even those decks tend to have a decent vote sidebar, so his lack of
presence can be a hindrance. Especially since the Settites have a
notoriously bad spread of disciplines on low-cap vampires, which can
lead to too many skill cards being needed. No 3 or 4 caps with a
superior (Lasombra are the only other major clan with this problem), no
5 caps with 2 superiors, no 6 cap with 3 superiors, and only one 7 cap
with 3 in-clan superiors (and unlike the 7 caps of many other clans, he
doesn't have a title or a useful special).
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:08:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <d5sup3$o7j$1@news.net.uni-c.dk>, FC <fc@kemi.dtu.dk> writes:
>But it already has deviated from that starting point. Players can
>influence some extremely potent named kindred (Augustus Giovanni for
>generation, Ur-Shulgri for age, the Inner Circle for behind-the-scenes-
>power - the IC were never named in the RPG afaik).

>The thought of a Methusalah controlling such creatures is far fetched.
>Indeed, these kindred are the ones the player was supposed to represent
>in the beginning.

Whilst the idea of influencing an antediluvian is somewhat more awkward,
the idea of influencing Inner Circle members isn't terribly difficult.
Being a Methuselah is not simply based on generation, and many
older/lower generation vampires are still around in White Wolf canon,
but still being manipulated by others in the grander scheme.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
!