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Couple of Questions, One Master and One Combat

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May 9, 2005 8:52:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Greetings All,

I can't seem to work out the correct search for the following
situations, so I'd appreciate either an answer or the search strings.


Q1. Toreador Grand Ball
If the TGB is in play and the "tapped" vampire is removed from the game
somehow, is TGB still in play?

The same goes for the "unblockable" vampire. Is it required to have
both vampires in play or just when the card is first played?

Q2. Rotschreck + Psyche! + Cardinal Sin - Is this sequence correct?
Jacko performs action, Lambach Blocks. During combat Lambach players
Breath of the Dragon + Rotschreck.

Rotschreck is put onto Jacko. Combat Ends. Jacko plays Psyche so new
combat is about to begin, Lambach plays Cardinal Sin: Insubordination.

Or should Lambach have played Cardinal Sin before the Psyche, right
after the Rotschreck? And if so, is there a window for him to do so?
Since Jacko restarted?

At the end of all of that, if Jacko does or does not go to torpor, he
keeps the Rotschreck on him correct?

Thanks in Advance,
David

More about : couple questions master combat

Anonymous
May 9, 2005 9:38:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> quetzalcoatl wrote:
> > I can't seem to work out the correct search for the following
> > situations, so I'd appreciate either an answer or the search
strings.
> >
> > Q1. Toreador Grand Ball
> > If the TGB is in play and the "tapped" vampire is removed from the
game
> > somehow, is TGB still in play?
>
> Yes. Google: "grand ball host leaves play author:LSJ" (and "show
quoted
> text" for the applicable context).
>
> > The same goes for the "unblockable" vampire. Is it required to have
> > both vampires in play or just when the card is first played?
>
> The latter. (same hit).

Tangentially related: Mata Hari is chosen as the second Toreador from
the ball. She untaps normally, right, since the ongoing "does not
untap" affect refers to "the second Toreador" and not "the second
vampire"? Likewise if she were chosen as the first, her actions would
not be unblockable.

Could make for an interesting deck.

John
May 9, 2005 9:39:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

The confusion occurred because Psyche starts a new combat, while the
CS:I is played after combat ends.

The CS:I would not have been played if Jacko hadn't Psyche-d
(obviously).

So what you (LSJ) are saying is that no matter the Psyche being played,
there is a window to play cards useable "after combat ends" before the
Psyche activates the new combat? Clarification here would be most
appreciated.

David
Related resources
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 11:40:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

quetzalcoatl wrote:
> Greetings All,
>
> I can't seem to work out the correct search for the following
> situations, so I'd appreciate either an answer or the search strings.
>
> Q1. Toreador Grand Ball
> If the TGB is in play and the "tapped" vampire is removed from the game
> somehow, is TGB still in play?
>
> The same goes for the "unblockable" vampire. Is it required to have
> both vampires in play or just when the card is first played?

Yes. No.

Decent strategy for a rush deck vs a TGB deck is to remove the
unblockable vampire, and then not bother to remove the TGB.

> Q2. Rotschreck + Psyche! + Cardinal Sin - Is this sequence correct?
> Jacko performs action, Lambach Blocks. During combat Lambach players
> Breath of the Dragon + Rotschreck.
>
> Rotschreck is put onto Jacko. Combat Ends. Jacko plays Psyche so new
> combat is about to begin, Lambach plays Cardinal Sin: Insubordination.
>
> Or should Lambach have played Cardinal Sin before the Psyche, right
> after the Rotschreck? And if so, is there a window for him to do so?
> Since Jacko restarted?
>
> At the end of all of that, if Jacko does or does not go to torpor, he
> keeps the Rotschreck on him correct?

CS:I's window to be played is after Psyche!, since it is a reaction card
and Psyche! is a combat card. However, you can play CS:I even after
Psyche! has been played; note that it in this case, no new combat is
ever entered, so Jacko can't play another Psyche! to stay out of torpor.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...

And yes, Jacko keeps the Rotschrek on him.

--Colin McGuigan
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:28:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

quetzalcoatl wrote:
> I can't seem to work out the correct search for the following
> situations, so I'd appreciate either an answer or the search strings.
>
> Q1. Toreador Grand Ball
> If the TGB is in play and the "tapped" vampire is removed from the game
> somehow, is TGB still in play?

Yes. Google: "grand ball host leaves play author:LSJ" (and "show quoted
text" for the applicable context).

> The same goes for the "unblockable" vampire. Is it required to have
> both vampires in play or just when the card is first played?

The latter. (same hit).

> Q2. Rotschreck + Psyche! + Cardinal Sin - Is this sequence correct?
> Jacko performs action, Lambach Blocks. During combat Lambach players
> Breath of the Dragon + Rotschreck.
>
> Rotschreck is put onto Jacko. Combat Ends. Jacko plays Psyche so new
> combat is about to begin, Lambach plays Cardinal Sin: Insubordination.

Yes. The same sort of window in which Obedience could be played.
AFAIK, this is a new question -- no googling would help.

> Or should Lambach have played Cardinal Sin before the Psyche, right
> after the Rotschreck? And if so, is there a window for him to do so?
> Since Jacko restarted?

Psyche! goes first, since it is a combat card.

> At the end of all of that, if Jacko does or does not go to torpor, he
> keeps the Rotschreck on him correct?

Yes.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:41:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

quetzalcoatl wrote:

> The confusion occurred because Psyche starts a new combat, while the
> CS:I is played after combat ends.
>
> The CS:I would not have been played if Jacko hadn't Psyche-d
> (obviously).
>
> So what you (LSJ) are saying is that no matter the Psyche being played,
> there is a window to play cards useable "after combat ends" before the
> Psyche activates the new combat? Clarification here would be most
> appreciated.

Psyche! is played after combat ends and before the Psyche!-combat
begins. You can play effects there just like you can play Obedience
between the time a block is successful and combat begins.

(But you can't queue up any more combats, since there's already
a combat pending.)

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 5:25:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1115682733.283017.264570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
quetzalcoatl <david@vega.id.au> writes:
>Q1. Toreador Grand Ball
>If the TGB is in play and the "tapped" vampire is removed from the game
>somehow, is TGB still in play?

Yes. It doesn't go "on" either vampire. It just goes into play, and
does things to either vampire - tapping them, or granting them
unblockability, as appropriate.

>The same goes for the "unblockable" vampire. Is it required to have
>both vampires in play or just when the card is first played?

Just when the card is played.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-c...
1e10e041e2ee02?hl=en

***
> Hmm, what if the second vamp is removed from the game?

Same thing.
You can even have the second Toreador stolen.

It doesn't matter, since card text doesn't put any conditions on the
handling, status, or presence of the second vamp. He doesn't untap
as normal, that is all.
***


>Q2. Rotschreck + Psyche! + Cardinal Sin - Is this sequence correct?
>Jacko performs action, Lambach Blocks. During combat Lambach players
>Breath of the Dragon + Rotschreck.

Minor point: Lambach doesn't play Rotschreck, his controller does.


>Rotschreck is put onto Jacko. Combat Ends. Jacko plays Psyche so new
>combat is about to begin, Lambach plays Cardinal Sin: Insubordination.

That's fine:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.trading-card...
aa69c7e8a3f?hl=en

***
The Psyche! is played first.
Then, after the base combat but before the Psyche! combat starts, CS:I
can be played (since it isn't trying to start a new combat, just like
Obedience could be played). Same thing if you swap HL or FR for Psyche!
in the example, although then you go to 1.6.1.6 to see which can be
played first.
***

That the Psyche! was preceded by a Rotschreck isn't relevant.

>Or should Lambach have played Cardinal Sin before the Psyche,

Psyche!'s timing window is before that of CS:I. That is, if you played
CS:I first, you would give up the opportunity to play Psyche!

> right
>after the Rotschreck? And if so, is there a window for him to do so?
>Since Jacko restarted?
>
>At the end of all of that, if Jacko does or does not go to torpor, he
>keeps the Rotschreck on him correct?

Rotschreck is always put on the relevant vampire, regardless of Psyche!
etc.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 10:15:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Daneel wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:22:45 GMT, LSJ
<vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
> > Johannes Walch wrote:
> >> Daneel wrote:
> >>>>> Tangentially related: Mata Hari is chosen as the second
Toreador from
> >>>>> the ball. She untaps normally, right, since the ongoing "does
not
> >>>>> untap" affect refers to "the second Toreador" and not "the
second
> >>>>> vampire"? Likewise if she were chosen as the first, her actions
would
> >>>>> not be unblockable.
> >>>>
> >>>> You cannot choose Mata Hari as second Toreador because she is
Ravnos.
> >>>> See the extensive discussions on her in previous threads (e.g
cannot
> >>>> gain blood via Tabriz Assembly). She fullfills the Toreador
> >>>> requirement of the Grand Ball card to be played but then you
have to
> >>>> choose two other Toreador ;-)
> >>>
> >>> If you play the TGB using her special, it treats her like a
Toreador.
> >>> The line is AFAIK drawn between any immediate and lingering
effects;
> >>> so she is a Toreador when you put the card in play and apply any
> >>> immediate effects (like choosing two Toreador), but she reverts
to
> >>> being a Ravnos for any continuous effects (either of the
subsequent
> >>> TGB effects are like that).
> >>
> >> Sounds reasonable. But anyway it would be good to have it
confirmed by
> >> LSJ.
> >
> > Johannes is correct.
>
> Is there a reason (aside of game balance issues)? Just curious what I
got
> wrong.

Johannes's explanation is correct.

Cards a minion plays as something treat him as that something (for
purposes of playing the card). But once in play, the minion is no
longer playing the card, so is no longer playing the card as something
else, so is no longer treated as anything other than what the minion
actually is.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:00:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

jnewquist@difsol.com wrote:
> Tangentially related: Mata Hari is chosen as the second Toreador from
> the ball. She untaps normally, right, since the ongoing "does not
> untap" affect refers to "the second Toreador" and not "the second
> vampire"? Likewise if she were chosen as the first, her actions would
> not be unblockable.

You cannot choose Mata Hari as second Toreador because she is Ravnos.
See the extensive discussions on her in previous threads (e.g cannot
gain blood via Tabriz Assembly). She fullfills the Toreador requirement
of the Grand Ball card to be played but then you have to choose two
other Toreador ;-)

> Could make for an interesting deck.

Of course.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:00:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 10 May 2005 08:00:32 +0200, Johannes Walch
<johannes.walch@vekn.de> wrote:

> jnewquist@difsol.com wrote:
>> Tangentially related: Mata Hari is chosen as the second Toreador from
>> the ball. She untaps normally, right, since the ongoing "does not
>> untap" affect refers to "the second Toreador" and not "the second
>> vampire"? Likewise if she were chosen as the first, her actions would
>> not be unblockable.
>
> You cannot choose Mata Hari as second Toreador because she is Ravnos.
> See the extensive discussions on her in previous threads (e.g cannot
> gain blood via Tabriz Assembly). She fullfills the Toreador requirement
> of the Grand Ball card to be played but then you have to choose two
> other Toreador ;-)

If you play the TGB using her special, it treats her like a Toreador.
The line is AFAIK drawn between any immediate and lingering effects;
so she is a Toreador when you put the card in play and apply any
immediate effects (like choosing two Toreador), but she reverts to
being a Ravnos for any continuous effects (either of the subsequent
TGB effects are like that).

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 3:40:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Daneel wrote:

>>> Tangentially related: Mata Hari is chosen as the second Toreador from
>>> the ball. She untaps normally, right, since the ongoing "does not
>>> untap" affect refers to "the second Toreador" and not "the second
>>> vampire"? Likewise if she were chosen as the first, her actions would
>>> not be unblockable.
>>
>>
>> You cannot choose Mata Hari as second Toreador because she is Ravnos.
>> See the extensive discussions on her in previous threads (e.g cannot
>> gain blood via Tabriz Assembly). She fullfills the Toreador
>> requirement of the Grand Ball card to be played but then you have to
>> choose two other Toreador ;-)
>
>
> If you play the TGB using her special, it treats her like a Toreador.
> The line is AFAIK drawn between any immediate and lingering effects;
> so she is a Toreador when you put the card in play and apply any
> immediate effects (like choosing two Toreador), but she reverts to
> being a Ravnos for any continuous effects (either of the subsequent
> TGB effects are like that).

Sounds reasonable. But anyway it would be good to have it confirmed by LSJ.

--
johannes walch
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 3:40:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Johannes Walch wrote:
> Daneel wrote:
>>>> Tangentially related: Mata Hari is chosen as the second Toreador from
>>>> the ball. She untaps normally, right, since the ongoing "does not
>>>> untap" affect refers to "the second Toreador" and not "the second
>>>> vampire"? Likewise if she were chosen as the first, her actions would
>>>> not be unblockable.
>>>
>>> You cannot choose Mata Hari as second Toreador because she is Ravnos.
>>> See the extensive discussions on her in previous threads (e.g cannot
>>> gain blood via Tabriz Assembly). She fullfills the Toreador
>>> requirement of the Grand Ball card to be played but then you have to
>>> choose two other Toreador ;-)
>>
>> If you play the TGB using her special, it treats her like a Toreador.
>> The line is AFAIK drawn between any immediate and lingering effects;
>> so she is a Toreador when you put the card in play and apply any
>> immediate effects (like choosing two Toreador), but she reverts to
>> being a Ravnos for any continuous effects (either of the subsequent
>> TGB effects are like that).
>
> Sounds reasonable. But anyway it would be good to have it confirmed by LSJ.

Johannes is correct.

--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 3:40:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:22:45 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> Johannes Walch wrote:
>> Daneel wrote:
>>>>> Tangentially related: Mata Hari is chosen as the second Toreador from
>>>>> the ball. She untaps normally, right, since the ongoing "does not
>>>>> untap" affect refers to "the second Toreador" and not "the second
>>>>> vampire"? Likewise if she were chosen as the first, her actions would
>>>>> not be unblockable.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot choose Mata Hari as second Toreador because she is Ravnos.
>>>> See the extensive discussions on her in previous threads (e.g cannot
>>>> gain blood via Tabriz Assembly). She fullfills the Toreador
>>>> requirement of the Grand Ball card to be played but then you have to
>>>> choose two other Toreador ;-)
>>>
>>> If you play the TGB using her special, it treats her like a Toreador.
>>> The line is AFAIK drawn between any immediate and lingering effects;
>>> so she is a Toreador when you put the card in play and apply any
>>> immediate effects (like choosing two Toreador), but she reverts to
>>> being a Ravnos for any continuous effects (either of the subsequent
>>> TGB effects are like that).
>>
>> Sounds reasonable. But anyway it would be good to have it confirmed by
>> LSJ.
>
> Johannes is correct.

Is there a reason (aside of game balance issues)? Just curious what I got
wrong.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:45:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Colin McGuigan wrote:
> Daneel wrote:
> > I assumed that when you play a card you must specify all of its
> > parameters; like in the case of Minion Tap announcing the vampire
> > and the amount of blood is part of playing the card (other
> > Methuselahs may decide whether to Sudden Reversal, for example,
> > based on that piece of information).
>
> <snip>
>
> It's my reading that you are correct, and LSJ said Johannes was
correct
> when he agreed with you.

Hmmm. Yes. Thanks. I seemed to have tripped over the attribution lines.
Daneel is correct (and with the correct explanation).
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 7:30:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 10 May 2005 06:15:24 -0700, LSJ <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote:

>> Is there a reason (aside of game balance issues)? Just curious what I
> got
>> wrong.
>
> Johannes's explanation is correct.
>
> Cards a minion plays as something treat him as that something (for
> purposes of playing the card). But once in play, the minion is no
> longer playing the card, so is no longer playing the card as something
> else, so is no longer treated as anything other than what the minion
> actually is.

I assumed that when you play a card you must specify all of its
parameters; like in the case of Minion Tap announcing the vampire
and the amount of blood is part of playing the card (other
Methuselahs may decide whether to Sudden Reversal, for example,
based on that piece of information).

This assumption made me further assume that if any choices, targets
and options must be declared when the card is played, declaring
those choices, targets and options happen during the playing of
the card.

Meaning, that for example in the case of Toreador Grand Ball* the
effects would be separated into immediate and continuous effects:
(choose two ready Toreador - happens right when you play the card)
would consider her to be a Toreador, but any continuous effects
(that are a result of this card *being in play* as opposed to this
card being *played*) would not.

*Toreador Grand Ball: "Put this card in play. Choose 2 ready Toreador
you control. The first Toreador's non-bleed actions cannot be blocked.
The second Toreador does not untap as normal during the untap phase;
tap the second Toreador. Any minion may burn this card as a (D) action;
Nosferatu get -1 stealth when attempting that action."

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 7:30:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Daneel wrote:
> I assumed that when you play a card you must specify all of its
> parameters; like in the case of Minion Tap announcing the vampire
> and the amount of blood is part of playing the card (other
> Methuselahs may decide whether to Sudden Reversal, for example,
> based on that piece of information).

<snip>

It's my reading that you are correct, and LSJ said Johannes was correct
when he agreed with you.

--Colin McGuigan
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:13:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 10 May 2005 12:45:29 -0700, LSJ <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote:

>
> Colin McGuigan wrote:
>> Daneel wrote:
>> > I assumed that when you play a card you must specify all of its
>> > parameters; like in the case of Minion Tap announcing the vampire
>> > and the amount of blood is part of playing the card (other
>> > Methuselahs may decide whether to Sudden Reversal, for example,
>> > based on that piece of information).
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> It's my reading that you are correct, and LSJ said Johannes was
> correct
>> when he agreed with you.
>
> Hmmm. Yes. Thanks. I seemed to have tripped over the attribution lines.
> Daneel is correct (and with the correct explanation).

Thanks! I was beginning to doubt myself... ;) 

--
Bye,

Daneel
!