[LSJ] Clarification about playing Form of Mist/"Needing St..

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

All this discussion seems non-sensical to me. I see the "continue the
action" of superior FoM as the main effect, and the +1 stealth as a
bonus. As this ruling stands, you cannot play any action card which
gives Stealth to the action (like Night Moves), since you don't need
the Stealth at the moment they are played.

Current text of superior FoM reads: "[PRO]Strike: combat ends. If this
vampire is acting, he or she may burn 1 blood after combat ends to
continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked (this action can
still be blocked). A vampire may play only one Form of Mist at
superior each action."

The relevant text is "may burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue
the action at +1 stealth". It doesn't says "may burn 1 blood after
combat ends to gain one Stealth and continue the action". So, the main
effect is continuing the action, which doesn't have anything to do
with Stealth need.

I sincerely ask LSJ to revise the ruling which says you have to check
against Stelth need when playing superior FoM.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Rodrigo Perez wrote:
> All this discussion seems non-sensical to me. I see the "continue the
> action" of superior FoM as the main effect, and the +1 stealth as a
> bonus. As this ruling stands, you cannot play any action card which
> gives Stealth to the action (like Night Moves), since you don't need
> the Stealth at the moment they are played.

No, you can, since Night Moves is an action that has stealth -- it
isn't adding stealth to an action. Like equipping has a default of
positive 1 stealth (which isn't added; it just is).

> Current text of superior FoM reads: "[PRO]Strike: combat ends. If
this
> vampire is acting, he or she may burn 1 blood after combat ends to
> continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked (this action can
> still be blocked). A vampire may play only one Form of Mist at
> superior each action."
>
> The relevant text is "may burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue
> the action at +1 stealth". It doesn't says "may burn 1 blood after
> combat ends to gain one Stealth and continue the action". So, the
main
> effect is continuing the action, which doesn't have anything to do
> with Stealth need.

Determining which effect is the "main" effect is not a concept used by
the rules, since it is typically a matter of perception and conjecture.
See also using Bonding at superior when the stealth is not needed or on
a non-bleed action. The effect of FoM is simply as stated: continue
with +1 stealth. That effect adds stealth. The rule against adding
stealth when stealth is not needed prohibits that effect from being
used when stealth is not needed, since that effect adds stealth.

> I sincerely ask LSJ to revise the ruling which says you have to check
> against Stelth need when playing superior FoM.

It's not a ruling. It's just the rule (an affirmation that the rule
explicitly stated in 6.2.2.2 is to be followed).

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> Rodrigo Perez wrote:
> > All this discussion seems non-sensical to me. I see the "continue
the
> > action" of superior FoM as the main effect, and the +1 stealth as a
> > bonus. As this ruling stands, you cannot play any action card which
> > gives Stealth to the action (like Night Moves), since you don't
need
> > the Stealth at the moment they are played.
>
> No, you can, since Night Moves is an action that has stealth -- it
> isn't adding stealth to an action. Like equipping has a default of
> positive 1 stealth (which isn't added; it just is).
>
> > Current text of superior FoM reads: "[PRO]Strike: combat ends. If
> this
> > vampire is acting, he or she may burn 1 blood after combat ends to
> > continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked (this action can
> > still be blocked). A vampire may play only one Form of Mist at
> > superior each action."
> >
> > The relevant text is "may burn 1 blood after combat ends to
continue
> > the action at +1 stealth". It doesn't says "may burn 1 blood after
> > combat ends to gain one Stealth and continue the action". So, the
> main
> > effect is continuing the action, which doesn't have anything to do
> > with Stealth need.
>
> Determining which effect is the "main" effect is not a concept used
by
> the rules, since it is typically a matter of perception and
conjecture.
> See also using Bonding at superior when the stealth is not needed or
on
> a non-bleed action. The effect of FoM is simply as stated: continue
> with +1 stealth. That effect adds stealth. The rule against adding
> stealth when stealth is not needed prohibits that effect from being
> used when stealth is not needed, since that effect adds stealth.
>
> > I sincerely ask LSJ to revise the ruling which says you have to
check
> > against Stelth need when playing superior FoM.
>
> It's not a ruling. It's just the rule (an affirmation that the rule
> explicitly stated in 6.2.2.2 is to be followed).

But you wouldn't need the stealth until the target player declares
another attempt to block. So it voids itself, and can't be used, if I
understand this correctly. Even if the action started at 0 stealth,
when combat ends, the former blocker is no longer attempting to block
the action. Or is that where I'm losing this? Is the blocker still
elligible to attempt to block?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Deqlor" <deqlan@sanguinis.net> wrote in message
news:1115737756.471799.289530@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> LSJ wrote:
>> Rodrigo Perez wrote:
>> > I sincerely ask LSJ to revise the ruling which says you have to
>> > check against Stelth need when playing superior FoM.
>>
>> It's not a ruling. It's just the rule (an affirmation that the rule
>> explicitly stated in 6.2.2.2 is to be followed).
>
> But you wouldn't need the stealth until the target player declares
> another attempt to block. So it voids itself, and can't be used, if I
> understand this correctly.

(Thus the discussion comes full circle back around to the start. This
point was my original impetus for asking the question.)

No, apparently you do not understand correctly. In order to use this
option, your minion must be an acting minion. It is currently in the
process of being blocked - by the minion with which it is combat.
Reckon the need for stealth from that perspective. Generally, the
acting minion _does_ need stealth or it wouldn't be in combat at the
moment.

Fred

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

the sitution is simple, and stop doing loops with the same question

as stated in other discussion, the burn one blood effect can only be
used if at the moment you play the combat end, the opposing minion has
intercept matching the stealth of the acting minion, no matter if the
opposing minion would remain tapped after the continue with the +1
stealth, because at the moment you burn the blood he still remains
being the blocking minion.

but now i must add a question to this, if i play FoM at superior and
want to use the burn one blood effect, but then the opposig minion
plays Psyche/Telepatic tracking, wich is the timiing for this? do i
have to burn the blood no matter that, or i burn it only when there are
no extentions to the combat???

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

ThE OnLy VipeR wrote:

> but now i must add a question to this, if i play FoM at superior and
> want to use the burn one blood effect, but then the opposig minion
> plays Psyche/Telepatic tracking, wich is the timiing for this? do i
> have to burn the blood no matter that, or i burn it only when there
are
> no extentions to the combat???

As the acting minion you may choose to use FoM continue action effect
immediately or not at all. If you burn the blood to continue and then
the opposing minion plays a Psyche! it will cancel the continue action
effect as it cancels all other after combat effects by queing a new
combat. Telepathic Tracking will continue the combat but will not
cancel the continue action effect as combat never ended. If you are
still ready you will continue the action.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Robert Scythe wrote:

> As the acting minion you may choose to use FoM continue action effect
> immediately or not at all. If you burn the blood to continue and then
> the opposing minion plays a Psyche! it will cancel the continue
action
> effect as it cancels all other after combat effects by queing a new
> combat. Telepathic Tracking will continue the combat but will not
> cancel the continue action effect as combat never ended. If you are
> still ready you will continue the action.

Whoops! Telepathic Tracking will also cancel the effect, sorry about
that.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> ThE OnLy VipeR wrote:
> > the sitution is simple, and stop doing loops with the same question
> >
> > as stated in other discussion, the burn one blood effect can only
be
> > used if at the moment you play the combat end, the opposing minion
has
> > intercept matching the stealth of the acting minion, no matter if
the
> > opposing minion would remain tapped after the continue with the +1
> > stealth, because at the moment you burn the blood he still remains
> > being the blocking minion.
> >
> > but now i must add a question to this, if i play FoM at superior
and
> > want to use the burn one blood effect, but then the opposig minion
> > plays Psyche/Telepatic tracking, wich is the timiing for this? do i
>
> Psyche! first.
>
> You choose for FoM after combat, after Psyche! window, before Cats'
Guidance window.
>
> Google: "Mist choose author:LSJ"
>
> > have to burn the blood no matter that, or i burn it only when there
are
> > no extentions to the combat???
> >
> --
> LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap
to reply)
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament
calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

But what happens when you Deflect a Mana Drain to a Force of Will which
is Countering a Red Elemental Blast on the stack?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

ThE OnLy VipeR wrote:
> the sitution is simple, and stop doing loops with the same question
>
> as stated in other discussion, the burn one blood effect can only be
> used if at the moment you play the combat end, the opposing minion has
> intercept matching the stealth of the acting minion, no matter if the
> opposing minion would remain tapped after the continue with the +1
> stealth, because at the moment you burn the blood he still remains
> being the blocking minion.
>
> but now i must add a question to this, if i play FoM at superior and
> want to use the burn one blood effect, but then the opposig minion
> plays Psyche/Telepatic tracking, wich is the timiing for this? do i

Psyche! first.

You choose for FoM after combat, after Psyche! window, before Cats' Guidance window.

Google: "Mist choose author:LSJ"

> have to burn the blood no matter that, or i burn it only when there are
> no extentions to the combat???
>


--
LSJ (vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Deqlor" <deqlan@sanguinis.net> wrote in message
> news:1115737756.471799.289530@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> >> Rodrigo Perez wrote:
> >> > I sincerely ask LSJ to revise the ruling which says you have to
> >> > check against Stelth need when playing superior FoM.
> >>
> >> It's not a ruling. It's just the rule (an affirmation that the
rule
> >> explicitly stated in 6.2.2.2 is to be followed).
> >
> > But you wouldn't need the stealth until the target player declares
> > another attempt to block. So it voids itself, and can't be used, if
I
> > understand this correctly.
>
> (Thus the discussion comes full circle back around to the start.
This
> point was my original impetus for asking the question.)
>
> No, apparently you do not understand correctly. In order to use this
> option, your minion must be an acting minion. It is currently in the
> process of being blocked - by the minion with which it is combat.
> Reckon the need for stealth from that perspective. Generally, the
> acting minion _does_ need stealth or it wouldn't be in combat at the
> moment.
>
> Fred

So when, if a combat occured as a result of the acting minion being
blocked, could the FoM NOT be used? Psyche and Telepathic tracking,
clearly, but anywhere else? When, if the acting minion was blocked (and
thus had not enough stealth) could he not need the stealth?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Wow, completely wrong! I got too many 'Correct's recently and got my
head in the clouds. Sheesh!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Deqlor" <deqlan@sanguinis.net> schreef in bericht
news:1115818313.321405.83260@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Deqlor" <deqlan@sanguinis.net> wrote in message
>> news:1115737756.471799.289530@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>
> So when, if a combat occured as a result of the acting minion being
> blocked, could the FoM NOT be used? Psyche and Telepathic tracking,
> clearly, but anywhere else? When, if the acting minion was blocked (and
> thus had not enough stealth) could he not need the stealth?
>
look higher in the thread. The given example was
Vamp A bleeds
Vamp B with 3 (inferior) raven spies blocks
Vamp A plays +3 stealth and is still blocked.
Vamp B plays Weather Control, burning the 3 raven spies.
Vamp A wants to play FoM, but because he has +3 stealth and the blocking
minion has 0, he can play the FoM to S:CE, but not use the burn blood to
continue the action because he cannot add stealth when he doesn't need it..

 

[Carl]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

<jeffkuta@pacbell.net> wrote
> But what happens when you Deflect a Mana Drain to a Force of Will which
> is Countering a Red Elemental Blast on the stack?

You get rushed by the rest of the table for swearing in public....

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 10 May 2005 23:24:23 -0700, jeffkuta@pacbell.net wrote:

>But what happens when you Deflect a Mana Drain to a Force of Will which
>is Countering a Red Elemental Blast on the stack?

Your friends call a CCG Rehab Clinic. You've been playing too much and
need help. :-D

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
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