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Barbed Wire Project- Tremere

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Anonymous
May 16, 2005 11:43:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hey Everybody,

I am out to try and build more players here in Dallas. The introduction

of a new player into the game to the game presents an intriguing set of

problems. Teaching them the intricacies of the game is a bit hard, but
I feel that's been pretty well solved already (at least, as best it can

be given the complexity of the game).

What you ideally would like to do is to get the new player playing as
part of your regular play group. Here is where it gets tricky. The deck

he will be playing will not be up to par with everyone elses deck.
While the multiplayer nature of VTES means that the table can react to

the fact that the new player's deck is not so good, that only goes so
far. This problem is often solved by giving the newbie a
sneak-and-bleed deck, but the problem then becomes the fact that he
only has one deck to play. He sees the rest of the group playing decks
that are doing snazzy thing and he tries to balance the desire to go
further into the game with the financial cost of doing so. This is the
problem I am trying to address.

I believe that when barbed wire was first introduced to the west that
one of the sales pitches was that it was, "Cheap as dirt and strong as
whiskey." That's what I'm trying to go for here, a series of decks that

are as cheap as dirt (i.e. you can give away/trade cheap multiple decks

without costing yourself) but strong enough to hold up to a table or
more expensive decks.

The fact that you are going to be giving away multiple decks dictates
that any such deck adhere to certain parameters: it can't contain more
than a few copies of any given card- I drew the line at five; it can't
utilize cards that you wouldn't freely want to give away- so loading up

on majesties and voter caps in your venture deck is probably not a good

idea.

To solve these problems I have made deck primarily of rarely used Jyhad

cards and limited the deck size to 60 cards. I have endeavored to make
one deck from each clan. Here is the Tremere deck. Let me know what you

think.


Crypt
Cassandra- Magus Prime 10- AUS THA DOM pre cel +1 Strength, +1 to
controller's hand size
2xSarah Cobbler 4-THA dom
Aleph (Malkavian) 4- AUS dom
Roreca Quaid 2-tha
Jing Wei 3- tha dom
Ignatius 4- dom tha aus
Dr. John Casey 3- aus tha
Lydia Van Cuelen 6- dom tha pre aus +1 Bleed
Any one of the following (Lazarus, Cardano, Justine - Elder of Dallas
or Ulugh Beg)
Any two of the following (Merill Molitor, Sabine Lafitte, Thomas Thorne
or Astrid Thomas)

Library

Master 11
2xDominate
5xThaumaturgy
2xShort Term Investment
2xBlood Doll

Action 9
3xBum's Rush/Ambush/Harass
2xCryptic Mission
4xGovern the Unaligned

Action Modifiers 6
2xThreats
4xConditioning

Reaction 8
3xWake with Evenings Freshness
5xTelepathic Counter

Equipment 2
2xFlak Jacket

Combat 24
5x(Some mix of Blood Rage and Blood Fury)
5xTheft of Vitae
5xTrap
3xDead-End Alley
2xDrain Essence
4xWalk of Flames
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 1:34:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Preston wrote:
> Crypt
> Cassandra- Magus Prime 10- AUS THA DOM pre cel +1 Strength, +1 to
> controller's hand size
> 2xSarah Cobbler 4-THA dom
> Aleph (Malkavian) 4- AUS dom
> Roreca Quaid 2-tha
> Jing Wei 3- tha dom
> Ignatius 4- dom tha aus
> Dr. John Casey 3- aus tha
> Lydia Van Cuelen 6- dom tha pre aus +1 Bleed
> Any one of the following (Lazarus, Cardano, Justine - Elder of Dallas
> or Ulugh Beg)
> Any two of the following (Merill Molitor, Sabine Lafitte, Thomas
Thorne
> or Astrid Thomas)

Not bad.

> Library
>
> Master 11
> 2xDominate
> 5xThaumaturgy
> 2xShort Term Investment
> 2xBlood Doll

I would be tempted to include Barrens or Elder Library. Maybe 1x
Auspex. Possibly Mob Connections.

> Action 9
> 3xBum's Rush/Ambush/Harass
> 2xCryptic Mission
> 4xGovern the Unaligned

Nice.

> Action Modifiers 6
> 2xThreats
> 4xConditioning

2x Seduction would be an excellent addition.

> Reaction 8
> 3xWake with Evenings Freshness
> 5xTelepathic Counter

I would think 2x Deflection, since you're so heavy on the Dominate.
But I can understand if you're not ready to give away a whole bunch of
Deflections.

> Equipment 2
> 2xFlak Jacket

Alternatively, Leather Jacket, if you have a pile of those. IR Goggles
would be good too.

> Combat 24
> 5x(Some mix of Blood Rage and Blood Fury)
> 5xTheft of Vitae
> 5xTrap
> 3xDead-End Alley
> 2xDrain Essence
> 4xWalk of Flames

1x Drain Essence, 1x Cauldron of Blood, 2-3x Walk of Flames. You might
also want to include a few Movement of the Mind/Apportation if
possible.


Xian
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 1:51:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hey Xian,

Thanks for the feedback. I could see adding a couple of Seductions. As
for the combat package, I tried to angle towards burning the opposing
minion. With that in mind, I am hoping to trap the opposing minion,
then drain their essence 2nd round so they have no blood, then walk of
flames third round for the kill. That's why I didn't include Cauldron
of Blood. That, and I really don't like that card. It seems to
restictive for what it does. I would prefer Blood Fury over that card
because they cost the same and Blood Fury is usable on the first round,
can not be prevented with Fortitude, and prevents weapon damage for
that round.

I will look towards including some Seductions and maybe even a
deflection or two. But the whole idea of the deck is that they are
afraid to block you.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 4:29:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Preston wrote:
> Hey Xian,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. I could see adding a couple of Seductions.
As
> for the combat package, I tried to angle towards burning the opposing
> minion. With that in mind, I am hoping to trap the opposing minion,
> then drain their essence 2nd round so they have no blood, then walk
of
> flames third round for the kill. That's why I didn't include Cauldron
> of Blood. That, and I really don't like that card.

Understandable. IME, it rarely works very well. In most of my Tremere
decks, I usually just put in a couple of Walk of Flame.

I would think that if you could get a few maneuvers in there, it would
be helpful, but I'm not certain if you have enough of the THA maneuvers
to give away.

> It seems to
> restictive for what it does. I would prefer Blood Fury over that card
> because they cost the same and Blood Fury is usable on the first
round,
> can not be prevented with Fortitude, and prevents weapon damage for
> that round.

There is all of that stuff. I was just figuring for variety. And
Blood Fury is a good time.

> I will look towards including some Seductions and maybe even a
> deflection or two. But the whole idea of the deck is that they are
> afraid to block you.

Mostly basing my suggestions off of this deck:
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#shadowtwin2k1

In a bruise & bleed deck, it can be critical to pick a minion that is
unable to block you (Lazvernius?). It pretty much never hurts, and
with the amount of DOM in the crypt, you should be able to freely cycle
it.


Xian
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 4:39:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Xian wrote:
> Preston wrote:
> > Hey Xian,
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback. I could see adding a couple of Seductions.
> As
> > for the combat package, I tried to angle towards burning the
opposing
> > minion. With that in mind, I am hoping to trap the opposing minion,
> > then drain their essence 2nd round so they have no blood, then walk
> of
> > flames third round for the kill. That's why I didn't include
Cauldron
> > of Blood. That, and I really don't like that card.
>
> Understandable. IME, it rarely works very well. In most of my
Tremere
> decks, I usually just put in a couple of Walk of Flame.
>
> I would think that if you could get a few maneuvers in there, it
would
> be helpful, but I'm not certain if you have enough of the THA
maneuvers
> to give away.
>

I have played a deck with a bunch of minions with inferior Thaumaturgy,
including Rafastio Ghouls. Fake Out and Dead-End Alley work just fine
for your run-of-the-mill Theft of Vitae / Walk of Flame combat.

Dorrinal Blackmantle
Chronicler of Clan Tremere
Chantry Elder of Salt Lake City
Disciple of Xian? ;) 
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 5:27:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hmm.

Well, currently the deck has 24 Combat cards (26 including Jackets). At
5 traps and 3 dead end alleys, does it have enough presses. If it needs
maneuvers, should we include some more combat cards and take out
others? Note that with 5 hand strikes, the deck does OK at close range
unless the opponent is packing a whallop as well.
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 3:06:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Made a minor change here. It seemed to me that the Tremere did
dramatically better in games where they were wearing flak jackets than
in games they didn't.. I added one more Jacket and took out the Blood
Dolls. For those of you who love them, feel free to leave them in.

Crypt
Cassandra- Magus Prime 10- AUS THA DOM pre cel +1 Strength, +1 to
controller's hand size
2xSarah Cobbler 4-THA dom
Aleph (Malkavian) 4- AUS dom
Roreca Quaid 2-tha
Jing Wei 3- tha dom
Ignatius 4- dom tha aus
Dr. John Casey 3- aus tha
Lydia Van Cuelen 6- dom tha pre aus +1 Bleed
Any one of the following (Lazarus, Cardano, Justine - Elder of Dallas
or Ulugh Beg)
Any two of the following (Merill Molitor, Sabine Lafitte, Thomas
Thorne
or Astrid Thomas)

Library

Master 10
2xDominate
5xThaumaturgy
3xShort Term Investment

Action 9
3xBum's Rush/Ambush/Harass
2xCryptic Mission
4xGovern the Unaligned

Action Modifiers 6
2xThreats
4xConditioning

Reaction 8
3xWake with Evenings Freshness
5xTelepathic Counter

Equipment 3
3xFlak Jacket

Combat 24
5x(Some mix of Blood Rage and Blood Fury)
5xTheft of Vitae
5xTrap
3xDead-End Alley
2xDrain Essence
4xWalk of Flames
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:55:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Preston wrote:
> Made a minor change here. It seemed to me that the Tremere did
> dramatically better in games where they were wearing flak jackets than
> in games they didn't.. I added one more Jacket and took out the Blood
> Dolls. For those of you who love them, feel free to leave them in.

Personally, I'd say that if you're running Theft, you want Blood Dolls
and not Short Terms. But that might just be me.

And yes, Flak Jackets are good, especially against the cursed Gangrel.

Also...not trying to be a smart-ass here, but it seems like a good half
of your decks are designed to be mostly Bruise & Bleed. Gangrel,
Nosferatu, Brujah, Tremere. Won't this be a problem? I mean, if most
of the decks' stated goals are to make the other decks want to not
block...won't they just get into combat anyway?

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing...combat is frequently one of
the most difficult phases for new players to grasp. It just seems like
you might want the decks to focus on different areas of play.


Xian
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 1:23:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hey Xian,

Yea, most of these decks are Bruise Bleed style decks. Of the remaining
clans, the Torreador and Brujah will also be a bruise bleed style deck.
The Malkavian will, of course, be a S&B. The Ventrue will not be a Vote
and bleed deck with combat defense.

The thing is, given the card set, it really seems geared towards that
style of play. I can't really do much with the Gangrel with common
cards other than get them in fights. The Tremere have great bleed
cards, but aren't much for stealth really. So then they get into
fights. Same with the Brujah and Torreador, given the card set, they
are probably going to end up doing Presense bleeds and fighting.
I guess the Nosferatu is the clan where I could go a different
direction and just focus on stealthy votes.

To be perfectly honest, I am just making decks along a guideline that I
am already familiar with and that seems to work OK. The way the decks
end up, if they play against other peoples decks they more or less do
what you would expect them to do. If a whole bunch of newbies are
playing together and they are all playing Barbed Wire decks, then it's
probably going to get bloody. From my own testing, if the Tremere,
Gangrel and Nosferatu are playing each other, expect 3-4 burned minions
by the time the game is done.

Now, yes, combat is confusing, but then again, not that bad. Most of
the people I am working with are also magic players and they have all
already been through the demo deck stage and (hopefully) taken the
rulebook I gave them home and read it. So they already know that in
combat you get to select one strike and that that damage can be
prevented. From there just introduce the idea of manuevers and presses
and things are OK. And, of course, combat and burned minions going to
the ash heap makes for a game with a certain level of excitment that
you just don't see a lot of times.

The lesson that can really be learned here is that, when a bunch of
bruise bleed decks are facing off, it's best to just hunt and let the
other guys fight it out. Of course, learning that lesson is what the
new guys have to do it, and, when they do understand it, they are well
on their way to no longer being new.
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 1:45:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Preston wrote:
> Hey Xian,
>
> Yea, most of these decks are Bruise Bleed style decks.

I suggest you make one of your Barbed Wire decks a pseudo-Crypt
Machine: low caps with dom/DOM or pre/PRE, with plenty of Govern the
Unaligned, Scouting Mission and Enchant Kindred. Masters to include are
Effective Management, Info Highway, Gird Minions, Misdirection and
Dominate or Presence masters. Combat is defensive: dodge, S:CE,
maneuvers, prevent, Change of Target. A little Seduction, a little
Bonding, and you have a deck that's easy to build from commons and
that will ace many another deck type. If you're committed to the clan
deck notion, you could do it with the Jyhad Ventrue.

(The pure form of the Crypt Machine is a very scary beast. Find it in
Lasombra's archive.)

> And, of course, combat and burned minions going to
> the ash heap makes for a game with a certain level of excitment
> that you just don't see a lot of times.

Anything that happens often gets less exciting. Getting VPs is thus all
the excitement most new players need.
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 3:25:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Preston wrote:
> "Cheap as dirt and strong as
> whiskey." That's what I'm trying to go for here, a series of decks
> as cheap as dirt (i.e. you can give away/trade multiple decks
> without costing yourself) but strong enough to hold up to a table
> of more expensive decks.

Second-round combat is something even experienced players have trouble
running. I think your new players will be less frustrated playing a
deck that doesn't chance it.

Here's an alternative.

Crypt
Cassandra (Tre, 10, AUS THA DOM, +1 Str, +1 hand size)
2 x Sarah Cobbler (Tre, 4, THA dom)
Aleph (Mal, 4, AUS dom)
Roreca Quaid (Tre, 2, tha)
Jing Wei (Tre, 3, tha dom)
Ignatius (Tre, 4, dom tha aus)
Dr. John Casey (Tre, 3, aus tha)
Lydia Van Cuelen (Tre, 6, dom tha pre aus, +1 Bleed)
Merill Molitor (Tre, 5, THA aus dom, convert agg dam)
Thomas Thorne (Tre, 6, DOM aus tha)
Any one of the following (Lazarus, Cardano, Justine - Elder of Dallas
or Ulugh Beg)

Library

Master 13
1 x Barrens
4 x Blood Doll
4 x Dominate
2 x Effective Management
2 x Thaumaturgy

Action 10
5 x Cryptic Mission
5 x Govern the Unaligned

Action Modifiers 8
3 x Bonding
2 x Conditioning
3 x Seduction

Reaction 10
2 x Spirit's Touch
5 x Telepathic Counter (or Deflection)
3 x Wake with Evenings Freshness

Equipment 3
1 x Flak Jacket
2 x IR Goggles

Combat 16
2 x (Some mix of Blood Rage and Blood Fury)
6 x Movement of the Mind
8 x Theft of Vitae
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 3:31:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Ok, I'll give it a try and give you my feedback.
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 3:46:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Emmit Svenson wrote:
> Here's an alternative.

By and large, I like this deck.

> Master 13
> 1 x Barrens
> 4 x Blood Doll
> 4 x Dominate
> 2 x Effective Management
> 2 x Thaumaturgy

Good stuff. There is probably some other Jyhad common that would be
helpful, but I can't think of it right now. KRCG? The Effective
Managements aren't necessary, but they combine well with the Governs.

> Action 10
> 5 x Cryptic Mission
> 5 x Govern the Unaligned

Preston, if you're going to modify anything about this deck, I would
start and finish with the Cryptic Missions. They're probably the most
expendable. Definitely useful, but not as critical to the deck as
everything else. I might reduce this to 2x Cryptic, and use the
additional slots for a Flak Jacket or two, and possibly a couple of
Auspex intercept cards.

> Action Modifiers 8
> 3 x Bonding
> 2 x Conditioning
> 3 x Seduction

Good.

> Reaction 10
> 2 x Spirit's Touch
> 5 x Telepathic Counter (or Deflection)
> 3 x Wake with Evenings Freshness

Could use one or two Enhanced Senses.

> Equipment 3
> 1 x Flak Jacket
> 2 x IR Goggles

Another Flak Jacket or two, or a Sport Bike.

> Combat 16
> 2 x (Some mix of Blood Rage and Blood Fury)
> 6 x Movement of the Mind
> 8 x Theft of Vitae

Good.


Xian
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 3:24:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1117132271.483490.53870@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> writes:
>Ok, I'll give it a try and give you my feedback.

Give what a try? Give who what feedback?

Please quote properly, using a standard convention. Making sense of
your random quotations, which vary from post to post, makes following
anything you say much harder.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Anonymous
May 29, 2005 10:37:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Emmit:

Played the alternative deck today. Got a table win. Pretty cool. A
newbie played the regular Tremere deck, got a VP and honorable mention
for reducing two different minions from full capacity to zero- once
with a Ignatius having only one pool.

They both seem pretty good really.
!