Urban Thief : Work in Progress, Special Abilities.

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I'm trying to devise a combat-light Rogue PrC, for use as a general
Thief character type, focused on master thieving skills and/or
abilities. I'm considering these for either a class ability, or
special
feat available to the PrC.
Questions: Is this too weak? Too strong? Would it make a good feat,
or should I leave it as a Special ability of the PrC? Any suggestion on
the order of availability for these (other than the obvious)?
Some Background: The PrC will be designed for city characters, probably
with a split in abilities (like the Ranger TWF/Bow split). One main
branch will be this type of up-close and personal theft (plus
teamwork), while the other would focus on solo B&E heists. Hopefully
you can tell which is which. I'm also open to any other ideas, as this
list will not fill out a 10 level PrC, especially one with 2 paths.

Sneak Attack Sleight-of-Hand (Already mentioned, but included for
completeness.)
Preq: Sneak Attack,Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
When you qualify for a sneak attack against a target, make a single
unarmed attack, and, if you hit, make an immediate Sleight of Hand
check to steal a small item from the target. In this case, the target
does not get a spot check unless you fail your check. Standard DC20
gets you a random small object (coin purse, ring, small weapon)
determined by the GM. For specific items (I want the knife from his
right belt sheath.) have a DC determined by the GM.

Hidden Paths:
Preq: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks, Gather Information 5 ranks
When the character is in a familiar city, he can travel between any
two public spaces at will, without being seen. Only 2 Hide checks are
required, one to enter and one to exit the Hidden Path. Travel time is
for normal walking speed for the distance traveled. Familiarity begins
at 1 full month of continuous residence, and becomes complete after 6
full months residence. In the interim, the benefits of familiarity
will fade if the character leaves the city for more than a week at a
time. There is no limit to the number of cities that can become
familiar to a well-traveled thief, but no community smaller than a
small city can ever be considered familiar.
In addition, a character with this ability can learn up to 3 routes in
an unfamiliar city. Each route takes 1 full day (8 hours, day or
night) of study, and allows travel as above between two specific points
only. Finally, even without an established route, the character
requires no more than a single Hide check to traverse a full block of
city streets.

Lost in the Crowd: Character can attempt to Hide in plain sight as
long as there are 3 or more creatures of the same size or larger within
10'. Enemies actively pursuing the character do not count toward this
total.


Improved Hidden Paths: Travel time is reduced to running speed for the
distance traveled. In addition, Hidden Paths now extend into otherwise
private (but not specifically guarded, nor magically secure) spaces in
the city. Public spaces no longer require Hide checks for entry into
or exit from the Hidden Path.

Smuggler's Way:
Preq: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks
Characters with this ability can make a single Hide or Move Silently
check (whichever is greater) to enter or exit a city without being
seen. This avoids any guard checks, and any taxes or tariffs, but not
magical wards. The entry/exit point is determined by the DM.
Character can also transport up to 50 lbs of cargo and/or 1 additional
Medium creature per CL/2.

Live it Up: The character is able to find good food and lodging for
himself and up to CL/2 companions in any city. Such food and lodging
is available for free, and/or requires completion of a minor task of
less than an hours effort and no risk to the character.

Case the Joint: 1 hour of study from 60' away or less confers a +4
bonus to all Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open
Lock, Search, and Tumble checks in a 10' square area. Based on Teamwork
Infiltration from Complete Adventurer, but does not apply to allies.

Sharps and Marks:
Preq: Bluff or Perform: 5 ranks, Sleight of Hand: 5 ranks
As part of a team, one character engages the target, while the other
(who must have Sleight of Hand, but does not require this ability)
flanks the target. The original character makes a Bluff or Perform
check, opposed by the target's Sense Motive. Success means the
flanking character gets a Sleight of Hand check at +10, with no chance
of being spotted unless the check fails.

Fast Stealth:
Preqs: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks, Climb 5 Ranks
Character takes no penalties when moving at full speed when using any
of these skills.

City-Bred Senses: +2 to Listen, Search, and Spot checks made within a
city. Increases to +4 and + 6. (Comes from Races of Destiny, Urban
Soul PrC.)

Other Issues: I'm thinking a 1/2 BAB progression, a Strong Reflex
save, and a split of Strong/Weak for the other two, B&E path gets
Strong Will, Team/SoH Path gets Strong Fort. Standard Rogue skill list
and points/level.
 
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Spinner wrote:
> Neat ideas.
>
> > Sneak Attack Sleight-of-Hand
> [snip]
> > When you qualify for a sneak attack against a target, make a single
> > unarmed attack, and, if you hit, make an immediate Sleight of Hand
> > check to steal a small item from the target.
> [snip]
>
> You might want to specify whether the unarmed attack provokes an AOO (I know
> they normally do but since this is not a typical attack, there would be some
> question).
>
In the interest of making the attack indistiguishable from a normal
unarmed attack, normal AOO rules would apply. I assume that a Rogue
with the appropriate feats could avoid that AOO if they were so
inclined.
 

Spinner

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Sep 7, 2002
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Neat ideas.

> Sneak Attack Sleight-of-Hand
[snip]
> When you qualify for a sneak attack against a target, make a single
> unarmed attack, and, if you hit, make an immediate Sleight of Hand
> check to steal a small item from the target.
[snip]

You might want to specify whether the unarmed attack provokes an AOO (I know
they normally do but since this is not a typical attack, there would be some
question).

Spinner
 
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What happened to combat pickpocketing? I Thought That Was Original?
-Dragonkat
 
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Are you complaining about the change of name? I didn't change that
yet. Sneak Attack Sleight of hand is at the top of OP in this thread.
I agree, Combat PickPocket is another good name for this ability. I'm
still looking for some critique on the relative power of these, and
whether they make good feats, or should be left as special abilities of
the PrC only.
 
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Ok, your sneak attack sleight of hand is still a good idea, as are the
others.

No offence ment.
-Dragonkat
 
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Pythor wrote:
I'm also open to any other ideas, as this
> list will not fill out a 10 level PrC, especially one with 2 paths.

A third path possibility could be an investigator type,
which is difficult to model with the standard rogue IMO.

> Sneak Attack Sleight-of-Hand (Already mentioned, but included for
> completeness.)

Good idea.

> Hidden Paths:
> Preq: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks, Gather Information 5 ranks
> When the character is in a familiar city, he can travel between any
> two public spaces at will, without being seen. Only 2 Hide checks are
> required, one to enter and one to exit the Hidden Path. Travel time is
> for normal walking speed for the distance traveled. Familiarity begins
> at 1 full month of continuous residence, and becomes complete after 6
> full months residence. In the interim, the benefits of familiarity
> will fade if the character leaves the city for more than a week at a
> time. There is no limit to the number of cities that can become
> familiar to a well-traveled thief, but no community smaller than a
> small city can ever be considered familiar.
> In addition, a character with this ability can learn up to 3 routes in
> an unfamiliar city. Each route takes 1 full day (8 hours, day or
> night) of study, and allows travel as above between two specific points
> only. Finally, even without an established route, the character
> requires no more than a single Hide check to traverse a full block of
> city streets.

I like the basic idea, but it's very difficult to define IMO:
What's the DC to enter a Hidden Path?
What happens if you fail your Hide check?
Two Hide checks for a known path and only one Hide check for a block
seems strange to me.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with the idea: an Urban Thief
should have the ability to move in familiar cities without being seen
by his enemies.

> Lost in the Crowd: Character can attempt to Hide in plain sight as
> long as there are 3 or more creatures of the same size or larger within
> 10'. Enemies actively pursuing the character do not count toward this
> total.

But they should - hiding among the pursuers is classic (and funny).
It could sometimes require an additional Disguise check...

> Smuggler's Way:
> Preq: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks
> Characters with this ability can make a single Hide or Move Silently
> check (whichever is greater) to enter or exit a city without being
> seen. This avoids any guard checks, and any taxes or tariffs, but not
> magical wards. The entry/exit point is determined by the DM.
> Character can also transport up to 50 lbs of cargo and/or 1 additional
> Medium creature per CL/2.

Don't know. Without this ability the Urban thief has to roleplay
through these situations, which is fun (and gains XP).
An ability like this, should give boni to these activities
and not replace them IMO.

> Live it Up: The character is able to find good food and lodging for
> himself and up to CL/2 companions in any city. Such food and lodging
> is available for free, and/or requires completion of a minor task of
> less than an hours effort and no risk to the character.

I like this one! How about a penalty for others who use Gather Info
to find the Urban Thief as long as he stays in the house?

>
> Fast Stealth:
> Preqs: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks, Climb 5 Ranks
> Character takes no penalties when moving at full speed when using any
> of these skills.

Another good one. Nitpick : it should say: *for* moving or do I suffer
from rule-bending player paranoia?
I'm sure you mean weather, surface condition penalties etc still apply?

> City-Bred Senses:
A must-have for Urban Thiefs...

LL
 
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Lorenz.Lang@gmx.de wrote:
> Pythor wrote:
> I'm also open to any other ideas, as this
> > list will not fill out a 10 level PrC, especially one with 2 paths.
>
> A third path possibility could be an investigator type,
> which is difficult to model with the standard rogue IMO.
>
Check out Urban Soul in Races of Destiny. To a small extent, the Urban
Thief PrC is a reaction to Urban Soul. US has a bunch of cool
abilities, but they're tied to the flavor of protecting the city. I
wanted a similar cast, wihtout the blessing from Urbanus, but someone
who would make a good foil for an Urban Soul otherwise. Hidden Paths
is a direct translation of one of the Urban Soul's abilities into
something a "normal" (not divinely gifted) could achieve.
Also, I'm thinking of solving the 10 level issue by offering a single
path for levels 1 through 5, and the second path as 6-10. That way,
you can choose 5 levels, one path, and then go back to Rogue (or some
other class), or stick it out for all the goodies you missed in the
first 5 levels.
> > Sneak Attack Sleight-of-Hand (Already mentioned, but included for
> > completeness.)
>
> Good idea.
>
> > Hidden Paths:
> > Preq: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks, Gather Information 5 ranks
> > When the character is in a familiar city, he can travel between any
> > two public spaces at will, without being seen. Only 2 Hide checks are
> > required, one to enter and one to exit the Hidden Path. Travel time is
> > for normal walking speed for the distance traveled. Familiarity begins
> > at 1 full month of continuous residence, and becomes complete after 6
> > full months residence. In the interim, the benefits of familiarity
> > will fade if the character leaves the city for more than a week at a
> > time. There is no limit to the number of cities that can become
> > familiar to a well-traveled thief, but no community smaller than a
> > small city can ever be considered familiar.
> > In addition, a character with this ability can learn up to 3 routes in
> > an unfamiliar city. Each route takes 1 full day (8 hours, day or
> > night) of study, and allows travel as above between two specific points
> > only. Finally, even without an established route, the character
> > requires no more than a single Hide check to traverse a full block of
> > city streets.
>
> I like the basic idea, but it's very difficult to define IMO:
> What's the DC to enter a Hidden Path?
> What happens if you fail your Hide check?
> Two Hide checks for a known path and only one Hide check for a block
> seems strange to me.
>
Presumably, the path is longer than 2 blocks. I could stipulate that
in the description, though. As for the DC, in general, I would think
20, though it depends on the area the entrance/exit is in. In poor
sections of town, DC 15, in the middle of the church district, DC 30+.

> Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with the idea: an Urban Thief
> should have the ability to move in familiar cities without being seen
> by his enemies.
>
> > Lost in the Crowd: Character can attempt to Hide in plain sight as
> > long as there are 3 or more creatures of the same size or larger within
> > 10'. Enemies actively pursuing the character do not count toward this
> > total.
>
> But they should - hiding among the pursuers is classic (and funny).
> It could sometimes require an additional Disguise check...
>
True. But I'm at a loss to create a mechanic for it. Disguise seems
good, but what's the DC for that. Perhaps pursuers only count as half?
Or perhaps each pursuer gets a Spot check, and counts only if they
fail? Which sounds better?

> > Smuggler's Way:
> > Preq: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks
> > Characters with this ability can make a single Hide or Move Silently
> > check (whichever is greater) to enter or exit a city without being
> > seen. This avoids any guard checks, and any taxes or tariffs, but not
> > magical wards. The entry/exit point is determined by the DM.
> > Character can also transport up to 50 lbs of cargo and/or 1 additional
> > Medium creature per CL/2.
>
> Don't know. Without this ability the Urban thief has to roleplay
> through these situations, which is fun (and gains XP).
> An ability like this, should give boni to these activities
> and not replace them IMO.
>
I was hoping the additional weight/creature limit would leave room for
that kind of thing. Perhaps the limit is too high? I was afraid of
that. Move it to CL/4?

> > Live it Up: The character is able to find good food and lodging for
> > himself and up to CL/2 companions in any city. Such food and lodging
> > is available for free, and/or requires completion of a minor task of
> > less than an hours effort and no risk to the character.
>
> I like this one! How about a penalty for others who use Gather Info
> to find the Urban Thief as long as he stays in the house?
>
> >
> > Fast Stealth:
> > Preqs: Hide 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks, Climb 5 Ranks
> > Character takes no penalties when moving at full speed when using any
> > of these skills.
>
> Another good one. Nitpick : it should say: *for* moving or do I suffer
> from rule-bending player paranoia?
> I'm sure you mean weather, surface condition penalties etc still apply?
>
Hmmm. I see what you mean. Yes. The intent is to remove only the
penalty to these skills that would otherwise be caused by moving at
normal speed, as opposed to half-speed.

> > City-Bred Senses:
> A must-have for Urban Thiefs...
>
Indeed. I'm debating at which levels the various bonus should kick in.
I'm thinking levels 2, 4, and 8, respectively.