Barbed Wire Project - Nosferatu

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hey Everybody,

I am out to try and build more players here in Dallas. The introduction
of a new player into the game to the game presents an intriguing set of
problems. Teaching them the intricacies of the game is a bit hard, but
I feel that's been pretty well solved already (at least, as best it can
be given the complexity of the game).

What you ideally would like to do is to get the new player playing as
part of your regular play group. Here is where it gets tricky. The deck
he will be playing will not be up to par with everyone elses deck.
While the multiplayer nature of VTES means that the table can react to
the fact that the new player's deck is not so good, that only goes so
far. This problem is often solved by giving the newbie a
sneak-and-bleed deck, but the problem then becomes the fact that he
only has one deck to play. He sees the rest of the group playing decks
that are doing snazzy thing and he tries to balance the desire to go
further into the game with the financial cost of doing so. This is the
problem I am trying to address.

I believe that when barbed wire was first introduced to the west that
one of the sales pitches was that it was, "Cheap as dirt and strong as
whiskey." That's what I'm trying to go for here, a series of decks that

are as cheap as dirt (i.e. you can give away/trade cheap multiple decks
without costing yourself) but strong enough to hold up to a table or
more expensive decks.

The fact that you are going to be giving away multiple decks dictates
that any such deck adhere to certain parameters: it can't contain more
than a few copies of any given card- I drew the line at five; it can't
utilize cards that you wouldn't freely want to give away- so loading
up on majesties and voter caps in your venture deck is probably not a
good idea.

To solve these problems I have made deck primarily of rarely used Jyhad
cards and limited the deck size to 60 cards. I have endeavored to make
one deck from each clan. Here is the Nosferatu deck. Let me know what
you think.

Crypt
Sheldon - Lord of the Clog 9 Cap Justicar AUS POT ANI OBF for
Selma the Repugnant 8 Cap Prince POT OBF ani for
1 Extra Copy of Either Selma or Sheldon
Lucretia, Cess Queen 10 Cap Primogen ANI OBF pot aus for cel +1 Stealth
Marty Lechtansi 9 Primogen OBF DOM POT ani for, May pay 1 blood for 1
press
Chester DuBois 7 Primogen ANI POT for obf
Sammy obf pot ani
Agrippina OBF pot
Duck pot obf
Dimple obf
Koko pot
Either Hasina Kesi or Lupo

Master Cards 9
2xMinion Taps
Animalism
2xFortitude
4xPotence

Actions 4
2xArmy of Rats
Rapid Healing
Restoration

Poltical Actions 10
Disputed Territory
Ancient Influence
2xConsanguineous Boon
6x(A mix of Kine Resources Contested and Conservative Agitation)

Action Modifers 8
3xBribes
2xLost in the Crowds
3xHidden Lurker

Combat 18
5xMighty Grapple
2xDrawing Out the Beast
2xGrowing Fury
2XThrown Gate
2xSkin of Steel
2xIndomitability
3xDisguised Weapon

Reaction 6
3xRat's Warning
3xCat's Guidance

Equipment/Retainers 5
2xWolf Companion
3xBlow Torch
22 answers Last reply
More about barbed wire project nosferatu
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    if you want something cheap as dirt and strong as whiskey, just buy two
    !Nosferatu PCDs and add custom Nosferatu/!Nosferatu crypt. you will
    have a really useful card pool including 4 Blood Dolls, 2 Disarms,
    Fame, Nosferatu Kingdom, 6 Cat's Guidance, 6 Raven Spy, 6 Carrion
    Crows, 4 Behind you!, 4 Taste of Vitae etc etc..you could build a
    decent intercept combat deck, with little purchases here and there, it
    could be useful for the newbie for a long time..
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    We had the two Starters discussion in the Gangrel thread. 2 Starters
    is $20 which is actually more expensive than dirt and the resulting
    deck is not really any stronger than this one.

    Don't get me wrong, 2 starters is a great way to go. I am just
    providing an alternative here.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Huh. What are you doing that makes folks want to block you? Certainly
    in this deck, there isn't much that needs to be blocked, and the
    Nosferatu have stealth anyway, making trying to block, unless you have
    stealth (I assume you mean intercept), a foolish enterprise. But ok."

    So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.
    Agreed. Therefore, 3 Hidden Lurkers can take the place of 6 Stealth
    cards. If they don't try to block, then the stealth cards were dead
    anyway. If they do, then you pop'em.

    The idea that your vampires will go the game unblocked seems a little
    silly to me, but if it works out that way, then this deck stands a
    better chance of winning, AND it does so without the extra stealth
    slots that would otherwise go unused.

    As for disguised weapon, it seemed to come up enough times. I see
    decklists at 90 cards where they have 1-2 concealed weapons. To me, 3
    and 3 seems to play about right. It also is a scare card- like hidden
    lurker- that makes Dimple's bleed for one seem more meanacing. And,
    hey, with only 2 Growing Furies in the deck, it's not like it's a ton
    of dead weight.

    The deck itself is really just out to bleed for the edge and call some
    votes. It carrys the rest of the deck to provide a deterant from
    blocking. Myself I would prefer to play the original deck more than
    version 2, but either will serve the purpose of providing a newbie a
    fun deck to play.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    >
    > Crypt
    > Sheldon - Lord of the Clog 9 Cap Justicar AUS POT ANI OBF for
    > Selma the Repugnant 8 Cap Prince POT OBF ani for
    > 1 Extra Copy of Either Selma or Sheldon
    > Lucretia, Cess Queen 10 Cap Primogen ANI OBF pot aus for cel +1 Stealth
    > Marty Lechtansi 9 Primogen OBF DOM POT ani for, May pay 1 blood for 1
    > press
    > Chester DuBois 7 Primogen ANI POT for obf
    > Sammy obf pot ani
    > Agrippina OBF pot
    > Duck pot obf
    > Dimple obf
    > Koko pot
    > Either Hasina Kesi or Lupo

    Crypt is fine. Uriah Winter? :)

    > Master Cards 9
    > 2xMinion Taps
    > Animalism
    > 2xFortitude
    > 4xPotence

    I would strongly urge more Masters. I think probably every deck you
    make ought to have some clan specific cards in it, and probably 1
    Hunting Ground as appropriate. The Labyrinth is another "staple"
    Nosferatu card and Storm Sewers is probably an uncommon you can afford
    to part with. I know I have a ton of these and they're not worth a
    whole lot.

    > Actions 4
    > 2xArmy of Rats
    > Rapid Healing
    > Restoration

    I'd toss in a Rampage for good measure, even if you keep the Disputed
    Territory.

    > Poltical Actions 10
    > Disputed Territory
    > Ancient Influence
    > 2xConsanguineous Boon
    > 6x(A mix of Kine Resources Contested and Conservative Agitation)
    >
    > Action Modifers 8
    > 3xBribes
    > 2xLost in the Crowds
    > 3xHidden Lurker

    I haven't followed your threads terribly closely, but Animal Magnetism
    is also a common that may be appropriate.

    > Combat 18
    > 5xMighty Grapple
    > 2xDrawing Out the Beast
    > 2xGrowing Fury
    > 2xThrown Gate
    > 2xSkin of Steel
    > 2xIndomitability
    > 3xDisguised Weapon

    I'd mix it up a little bit more. Perhaps 2 Thrown Sewer Lids for
    variety.

    > Reaction 6
    > 3xRat's Warning
    > 3xCat's Guidance

    Guard Dogs are also good here.

    > Equipment/Retainers 5
    > 2xWolf Companion
    > 3xBlow Torch

    You should have at least 1 intercept retainer in here. If those Raven
    Spies are scarce, use an Owl Companion instead. Flak Jackets also make
    good filler for Equipment.

    Jeff
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Hey Jeff,

    Thanks for the feedback.


    >
    > > Master Cards 9
    > > 2xMinion Taps
    > > Animalism
    > > 2xFortitude
    > > 4xPotence
    >
    > I would strongly urge more Masters. I think probably every deck you
    > make ought to have some clan specific cards in it, and probably 1
    > Hunting Ground as appropriate. The Labyrinth is another "staple"
    > Nosferatu card and Storm Sewers is probably an uncommon you can afford
    > to part with. I know I have a ton of these and they're not worth a
    > whole lot.

    Well keep in mind its a 60 card deck. 14 Master card is standard for a
    90 card deck, and that would translate to 9 for a 60 card deck. Also, I
    don't like Storm Sewers in general. How about this:

    Master Cards 10
    2xMinion Taps
    Animalism
    2xFortitude
    4xPotence
    Haven Uncovered

    > I'd toss in a Rampage for good measure, even if you keep the Disputed
    > Territory.
    >
    Hmm, OK. How about this.

    Actions 3
    Rampage
    Restoration
    Rapid Healing

    > > Poltical Actions 10
    > > Disputed Territory
    > > Ancient Influence
    > > 2xConsanguineous Boon
    > > 6x(A mix of Kine Resources Contested and Conservative Agitation)
    > >
    > > >
    > I haven't followed your threads terribly closely, but Animal Magnetism
    > is also a common that may be appropriate.
    >
    OK. Well then, we could just say this.

    Action Modifers 8
    > > 3x(A mix of Bribes and Animal Magnetism)
    > > 2xLost in the Crowds
    > > 3xHidden Lurker


    > > Combat 18
    Shattering Blow
    > > 5xMighty Grapple
    > > 2xDrawing Out the Beast
    > > 2xGrowing Fury
    > > 2xThrown Gate
    > > 2xSkin of Steel
    > > 2xIndomitability
    > > 2xDisguised Weapon
    >
    > I'd mix it up a little bit more. Perhaps 2 Thrown Sewer Lids for
    > variety.
    Hmm. I don't like the Sewer Lid here. This deck has no maneuvers. You
    could hope that they maneuver, but 2 Sewer Lids in a 60 card decks
    seems a bit much. I would just go with morr thrown gates then.

    >
    > > Reaction 6
    > > 3xRat's Warning
    > > 3xCat's Guidance
    >
    > Guard Dogs are also good here.

    Yea. If one went with Guard Dogs one could throw in a Lid or two. But
    they would have to go together.
    >
    > > Equipment/Retainers 5
    > > 2xWolf Companion
    > > 2xBlow Torch
    Raven Spy

    > You should have at least 1 intercept retainer in here. If those Raven
    > Spies are scarce, use an Owl Companion instead. Flak Jackets also make
    > good filler for Equipment.
    >
    > Jeff

    Had to come down to 2 Disguised Weapons and 2 Blow Torches to fit it
    all in. I will have to see how that plays.
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    > Hey Jeff,
    >
    > Thanks for the feedback.
    No problem.

    > > > Master Cards 9
    > > > 2xMinion Taps
    > > > Animalism
    > > > 2xFortitude
    > > > 4xPotence
    > >
    > > I would strongly urge more Masters. I think probably every deck you
    > > make ought to have some clan specific cards in it, and probably 1
    > > Hunting Ground as appropriate. The Labyrinth is another "staple"
    > > Nosferatu card and Storm Sewers is probably an uncommon you can afford
    > > to part with. I know I have a ton of these and they're not worth a
    > > whole lot.
    >
    > Well keep in mind its a 60 card deck. 14 Master card is standard for a
    > 90 card deck, and that would translate to 9 for a 60 card deck. Also, I
    > don't like Storm Sewers in general. How about this:
    >
    > Master Cards 10
    > 2xMinion Taps
    > Animalism
    > 2xFortitude
    > 4xPotence
    > Haven Uncovered

    I'd disagree with your 14/90 assessment. In a deck that cycles very
    heavily, I could see that, but I don't see that from this deck. Sure
    there are presses and such, but S:CE will probably thwart them on some
    level since you're unlikely to use IG. Carrion Crows would be nice, but
    those are a relatively premium card.

    But back to Masters, I would use 12/60 if I were making the deck. 20%
    is more "standard" from my perspective. I think it's important for new
    players to actually have Masters to play. If nothing else, it makes
    them feel like they're doing something and cycling cards. ;)

    ....specifics of deck snipped...

    One thing this deck lacks is ousting power. I think it will do just
    fine crushing vampires into torpor, but it needs more ways to get into
    combat--bleeds for 1 and politics won't cut it. How about 1x Laptop
    Computer and perhaps 1x Fame?

    I think this strategy of "permanents" can also help with your
    deckbuilding in general. Permanents are extremely important in
    limited/sealed events and that also translates well for relatively
    unfocused decks like those in the Barbed Wire Project. Plus, putting in
    1x Laptop is a lot simpler when building decks than finding 4-6
    Computer Hacking. :)

    Good luck with the project in general. It's always good to see someone
    looking out for new players.

    Jeff
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Peter,

    "Peter D Bakija May 25, 4:31 pm show options

    Preston wrote:
    > So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.

    "Well, no, by the logic of the card, it is only good if they try and
    block you."

    And so is the stealh that you though was necessary to add.

    > Agreed. Therefore, 3 Hidden Lurkers can take the place of 6 Stealth
    > cards. If they don't try to block, then the stealth cards were dead
    > anyway. If they do, then you pop'em.

    In a general sense, yeah, HL can occasionally be good at preventing
    folks
    from blocking you. In a specific sense, I'm not seeing them being that
    useful in thei particular deck. "

    Look, if you want to say the deck needs more actions that are scary,
    the those should be added. But pursuing a strategy of bruise in place
    of stealth if perfectly fine, As such, Hidden Lurker is a fine
    alternative to stealth cards and does so using fewer cards in this
    deck. This deck has 6 votes that hit for 3 or more, plus a weenie bleed
    or two every turn.

    I am not arguing that the deck couldn't use a few more threats, but I
    am saying that your are criticism of Hidden Lurker is employing to
    situations with are mutually exclusive: either the deck posses a threat
    such that your prey is tempted to block and EITHER stealth OR HL is a
    good answer, or it does not. Saying, to replace HL with stealth because
    HL is a bad card is poppycock and really diminshes the decks threat
    potential by clogging it up with stealth cards.

    Anyway, I'll see how the deck plays and what might could come out for a
    labtop of two.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    A clarifaction point about my take on the Nos. In general, I avoid
    loading them up on Computer Hackings/Labtops & Stealth, because to me
    it becomes a bad version of a sneak and bleed deck. To me, a properly
    done Nos deck should have some element of Bleed Bruise or be a purely
    political Stealth Vote deck. As such, Hidden Lurker allows the deck to
    say "Don't block me" with fewer cards than stealth would require and
    the deck can use the extra room for either more combat or more threats.


    To put in more labtops to this deck will require to cut some out of the
    combat. I could take out the Disguised Weapon/Blow Torch, but in play
    testing that has comboed nicely with Hidden Lurker- when comboed with
    Drawing Out the Beast it can even burn the other minion.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Peter,

    Thanks again for your feedback. To facilitate this discussion, let me
    break the deck out differently.

    Combat Cards 18/60 or 30%
    Shattering Blow
    5xMighty Grapple
    2xDrawing Out the Beast
    2xGrowing Fury
    2xThrown Gate
    2xDisguised Weapon
    2xWolf Companion
    2xBlow Torch

    Threats 8/60 or 13%
    Rampage
    Disputed Territory
    6x(KRC/Conservative Aggitation)

    Block Prevention 5/60 or 8.3%
    2 Lost in the Crowds
    3 Hidden Lurker

    General Defense 11 or 18.3%
    2xSkin of Steel
    2xIndominability
    3xCat's Guidance
    3xRat's Warning
    1xRaven Spy

    Utility 18 or 30%
    Restoration
    Rapid Healing
    2xCon Boon
    Ancient Influence
    2xMinion Tap
    4xPotence
    Animalism
    Haven Uncovered
    2xFortitude
    3xBribes

    As it stands, we have 30% of the cards in the deck are dedicated to
    combat. To me that should make the Hidden Lurker and the Haven
    Uncovered Pretty nasty, and if it doesn't then I think it means the
    combat cards need to be reworked rather than removing the HL or Haven
    because 30% seems like it should be enough. The deck is more defensive
    and reactionary than offesive, with only 13% of the deck dedicated to
    actual threats. But, if that needs to be improved, what to be cut?

    The decks defense could be toned down a bit. One all of the fortitude
    cards except for the two skin of steel- that would make room for 6
    cards (including the master cards). Of those 6, 2 could be Havens
    (which would bring it up to 3) and that wold allow to attack the
    predator minions if they became to aggressive, and the other 4 could be
    threat cards such as Labtops, and more votes. That would bring it up to
    12 threat cards or 20%.

    The reason I want to break things down this way is because it allows
    one to say, for instance, that the precentage is fine but the specific
    package needs to go, or whether there needs to be a shift in
    percentage.
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:

    > So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.

    Well, no, by the logic of the card, it is only good if they try and block
    you.

    > Agreed. Therefore, 3 Hidden Lurkers can take the place of 6 Stealth
    > cards. If they don't try to block, then the stealth cards were dead
    > anyway. If they do, then you pop'em.

    In a general sense, yeah, HL can occasionally be good at preventing folks
    from blocking you. In a specific sense, I'm not seeing them being that
    useful in thei particular deck.

    > The idea that your vampires will go the game unblocked seems a little
    > silly to me, but if it works out that way, then this deck stands a
    > better chance of winning, AND it does so without the extra stealth
    > slots that would otherwise go unused.

    The deck has nothing that needs blocking. No one is going to block a bleed
    of 1 if it means that your vampire gets beat to death. I suspect that the
    deck in question (ya know, keeping in mind all the context) could go through
    an entire game never being blocked and still not necessarily do all that
    well. Making cards that only work when you are blocked not that useful.

    > As for disguised weapon, it seemed to come up enough times. I see
    > decklists at 90 cards where they have 1-2 concealed weapons.

    Yeah, that isn't a good idea either, really.

    > To me, 3
    > and 3 seems to play about right. It also is a scare card- like hidden
    > lurker- that makes Dimple's bleed for one seem more meanacing.

    Ok then.


    Peter D Bakija
    pdb6@lightlink.com
    http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

    "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
    easily spilled liquids to naked people."
    -Brittni Meil
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:

    > And so is the stealh that you though was necessary to add.

    Well, stealth lets you get things done that need to get done in a much more
    reliable way than HL does--if you need to go, like, Diablerize someone's
    Justicar, you are much better off with a Lost in Crowds now than a HL a few
    turns ago that resulted in someone getting hit for 3 a few turns ago.

    HL is, in theory, a viable "block avoider". But only if you can reliably
    really whack someone if thy block you and you have HL in your hand--the
    HL/Trap/Withering/Compress angle comes to mind. Again, I'm not losing track
    of the context here (a playable deck for beginners made mostly out of Jyhad
    commons), but with not *that* much combat and 3 HL's, really, it is a fringe
    concept, at best. Especially in a deck that really needs to be able to Rush
    folks to be able to defend itself. But in reality, this conversation has
    gone way further than it has needed to.


    Peter D Bakija
    pdb6@lightlink.com
    http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

    "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
    easily spilled liquids to naked people."
    -Brittni Meil
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:

    > A clarifaction point about my take on the Nos. In general, I avoid
    > loading them up on Computer Hackings/Labtops & Stealth, because to me
    > it becomes a bad version of a sneak and bleed deck. To me, a properly
    > done Nos deck should have some element of Bleed Bruise or be a purely
    > political Stealth Vote deck. As such, Hidden Lurker allows the deck to
    > say "Don't block me" with fewer cards than stealth would require and
    > the deck can use the extra room for either more combat or more threats.

    Sure. But it is a risky plan overall--you need to have a very significant
    card combo run to make it really pay off and especially in a kind of
    "newbie" deck as presented, it isn't going to pay off that much, due to the
    limited numbers of the necessary combo cards--most of the time, you'll have
    a HL, someone will block you, and:

    A. You won't have an untapped minion to use.
    B. You won't have any scary combat to play.

    In the unlikely event that you have both an untapped minion and scary combat
    in your hand the first time someone blocks you, you might mangle someone and
    scare them out of blocking again. But most of the time, not so much.

    I understand where you are coming from in not wanting to make a bad S+B
    deck. But to be really viable, a deck like this needs the ability to Rush
    folks (i.e. a bunch of Bum's Rush) and be able to oust (which Laptops help).
    Having the bruise element in there is good, but unless someone really has a
    good reason to block you, they aren't going to block you--blocking a bleed
    of 1 is never going to happen if blocking that bleed means you lose 1+ blood
    off vampires, as it just isn't worth it (you bleed me for 1, I counter by
    blood dolling off for 1).


    Peter D Bakija
    pdb6@lightlink.com
    http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

    "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
    easily spilled liquids to naked people."
    -Brittni Meil
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    well, if your deck is stronger than anything created from two !Nos
    starters, you probably play in a VERY bizarre metagame. no offence.
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    > As such, Hidden Lurker allows the deck to say
    > "Don't block me" with fewer cards than stealth would require and
    > the deck can use the extra room for either more combat or more threats.

    The advantage of stealth over bruise is that if you're bruising, your
    opponents will not hesitate to block actions that, if successful, will
    be worse than losing the blocker.

    If your opponents have chump blockers like weenie vampires, Jake
    Washington or the like, the cost of blocking your action is relatively
    low. Of course they will block your ousting bleed, your KRC/Con Ag,
    your Rampage of their hunting ground. But since most of your actions
    are pretty weak ("I bleed for one! I hunt!"), your opponents
    shouldn't even throw their chumps in front of them. That's why we
    suggest you either boost the threat value of your actions with Laptops
    and so on or move in a more stealthy direction.

    Metagames differ, but in these parts chump blockers are more common
    than serious intercept, so stealth is more effective than bruise. Add
    to that the problem that HL is fairly inefficient bruise (you tap two
    minions and risk yourself in two combats to take a shot at beating up
    one minion) and you can see why people are steering you away from the
    card.

    Why not replace it with Swallowed by the Night? That's a card that
    does double duty as stealth and combat, and to the best of my knowledge
    it was a common. Leather Jacket would also be useful in combination
    with your Animalism intercept.

    I would also suggest changing some of your votes. Ancient Influence
    could be a dead card in your hand, and might help others far more than
    yourself. Con Boon is great pool gain later in the game, but offers you
    less in the beginning and doesn't give you any negotiating power with
    cross-table titles. Why not replace them with the common Finding the
    Path? That vote gives you a little offense and a little bloat at
    stealth, and is useful even when you only have one minion.

    Finally, I suggest you consider building mono- or duo-discipline decks
    rather than clan-based decks for the Barbed Wire project. You can build
    better decks with tighter crypts out of commons by focusing on a
    discipline than you can focusing on a clan. Alternately, consider
    building decks for the Independent clans, since the commons for them in
    KMW are quite powerful (Tumminos, Waters of Duat, Web of Knives).
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    > Peter wrote:
    > "Huh. What are you doing that makes folks want to block you? Certainly
    > in this deck, there isn't much that needs to be blocked, and the
    > Nosferatu have stealth anyway, making trying to block, unless you have
    > stealth (I assume you mean intercept), a foolish enterprise. But ok."
    >
    > So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.

    Actually, Hidden Lurker is only good if they SUCCEED in blocking you.
    The thing about HL is that once it's been played, people stop trying to
    block you until they get desperate. With stealth, they always think,
    "well hey, he might have run out." With HL, they think, "well hey, he
    might have another HL, in which case I really *don't* want to block."
    With stealth, newbies at least, will continue to try to block, cycling
    your hand. With HL, pretty much everyone stops blocking, resulting in
    no hand cycling.

    I believe what Peter was saying is that Hidden Lurker is best in decks
    that don't plan on adding a lot more stealth.

    > As for disguised weapon, it seemed to come up enough times. I see
    > decklists at 90 cards where they have 1-2 concealed weapons. To me, 3

    That 1-2 in 90 ratio is a total longshot. If you want to reliably get
    Concealed/Disguised in 90 cards, you need approximately 8 CW/DW and 8
    weapons to go along with it. Possibly more.

    > The deck itself is really just out to bleed for the edge and call some
    > votes. It carrys the rest of the deck to provide a deterant from

    Some Computer Hackings couldn't hurt. They're always a good time.

    > blocking. Myself I would prefer to play the original deck more than
    > version 2, but either will serve the purpose of providing a newbie a
    > fun deck to play.

    And all of that, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.


    Christian
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Dear Emmit,

    Thanks for your feedback. I agree on the idea of focusing on one-two
    discipline decks. With this deck I am trying to focus on Potence with a
    bit of Animalism and a splash of Obfuscate. As sush, Swallowed by the
    Nigth, while a good suggestion, doesn't seem to make the deck either
    more threatening in its ousting power or really all that much better in
    combat since few minions are going to have OBF.

    If it would please those assembled here, what if I included 1 The
    Labryrinth and 2 Labtop computers? Hmm, a bit of permastealth
    permableed? Of course, what to take out in terms of percentage
    allocation. Take it out of combat, utility, or defense?

    As for your vote suggestion, as the deck stands it has some big guys in
    it. 1 10 cap, and 2 9 caps with skill cards to make them 11 and 10 cap
    vamps. With minions this big it needs to get some pool back, hense the
    Ancient Influence and Minion taps. Just last night I was thinking about
    "FInding the Path". Do you think it's strong enough to include?

    I guess the question becomes, are we increaing the number of votes
    above 10 or switching some out. Currently we have:
    Ancient Influence
    Disputed Territory
    Con Boonx2
    6xKRC/Con Boon

    So, you are thinking of switching out the Ancient Influence and Con
    Boons for Finding the Paths? Not a bad idea really. I'll try that.

    As for making decks from other sets, I suppose I will get around to
    that. I just have a lot of Jyhad cards and I feel that good decks can
    be made from them. I wanted to start here.
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    > I am trying to focus on Potence with a
    > bit of Animalism and a splash of Obfuscate. As sush, Swallowed by
    > the Nigth, while a good suggestion, doesn't seem to make the deck
    > either more threatening in its ousting power or really all that
    > much better in combat since few minions are going to have OBF.

    Didn't you change your crypt to:

    2x Sheldon
    2x Selma
    2x Chester
    1x Grendel
    1x Sammy
    1x Agripina
    1x Duck
    1x Koko
    1x Hesina ?

    Half that crypt (Sheldon, Selma, Grendel, Agrippina), including 2/3 of
    the minions with superior Potence, can play it as combat. 5/6 of that
    crypt can play it as stealth on a killing bleed or vote. It'll be
    handy.

    > If it would please those assembled here, what if I included 1 The
    > Labryrinth and 2 Labtop computers? Hmm, a bit of permastealth
    > permableed? Of course, what to take out in terms of percentage
    > allocation. Take it out of combat, utility, or defense?

    Yes, that's good. I'd lose a discipline master to add the Labyrinth
    and drop some of the iffy combat for the Laptops.

    > As for your vote suggestion, as the deck stands it has some big
    > guys in it. 1 10 cap, and 2 9 caps with skill cards to make them
    > 11 and 10 cap vamps.

    I guess you're keeping Lucrecia? Yeech.

    The only skill card you can put on your 9-caps is your lone Animalism
    master. And you can't play skill cards on Sheldon at all. So if you
    get out a huge minion before you draw the Ancient Influence, and if you
    draw the one skill card you can play on that minion before you play the
    vote, you'll be *one* of the Methuselahs that benefits from it
    most...but maybe your prey will be too. It's not a good bet,
    especially since another player might call the vote, which saves you
    the trouble and makes it a dead card.

    > last night I was thinking about
    > "FInding the Path". Do you think it's strong enough to include?

    Finding the Path, like KRC and Con Ag, is a vote you can usually find
    cross-table support for. I would also suggest a Parity Shift if you
    have extra, since four of your vamps (Sheldon and Selma) can call it.
    They're your largest vamps, so you're most likely to be in a
    situation where you could call PS after influencing them, and it's
    such a power play that a single discard if you don't influence them
    is a price worth paying.
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Ok, how about a more political style:
    Crypt
    2xSelma the Repugnant
    2xSheldon Lord of the Clog
    1xChester Dubois
    1x(Lucretia- Cess Queen or Marty Lechtansi)
    Agrippina
    Duck
    Dimple
    Koko
    Sammy
    Normal

    Master 10
    2xMinion Tap
    Elder Library
    The Barrens
    The Labyrinth
    2x Animalism
    3x Short Term Investment

    Political Actions 14
    Disputed Territory
    10x(A mix of Conservative Agitation and Kine Resources Contested)
    3xFinding the Path/Parity Shift

    Actions 2
    2xThe Fourth Tradition: The Accounting

    Action Modifers 14
    6x(A mix of Bribes and Animal Magnetism)
    8x(A mix of Lost in the Crowds/Cloak the Gathering/Forgotten
    Lab/Faceless Night)

    Combat 8
    2x Shattering Blow
    2x Skin of Steel
    4x Disguised Weapon

    Equipment 7
    2x Laptop Computers
    Lear Jet
    4x(A mix of Blow Torch/Submachine Gun)

    Reaction 5
    3x Rat's Warning
    2x Cat's Guidance
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    >Crypt
    >2xSelma the Repugnant
    >2xSheldon Lord of the Clog
    >1xChester Dubois
    >1x(Lucretia- Cess Queen or Marty Lechtansi)
    >Agrippina
    >Duck
    >Dimple
    >Koko
    >Sammy
    >Normal

    Good crypt, but I'd still just have a second Chester instead of Marty
    or Lucrecia--a 7 cap is *much* better than a 9 or 10 cap, he has a
    vote, and he has fortitude (the others do too, but they are just too
    big to be useful, really, as a second string crypt choice).


    >Master 10
    >2xMinion Tap
    >1xElder Library
    >1x The Barrens
    >1x The Labyrinth
    >2x Animalism
    >3x Short Term Investment

    Very reasonable. Assuming no access to Blood Dolls, this is solid. Some
    good permanents and some good pool gain.


    >Political Actions 14
    >Disputed Territory
    >10x(A mix of Conservative Agitation and Kine Resources Contested)
    >3xFinding the Path/Parity Shift

    Whoah. Parity Shift is generous. Good, certainly. Nice inclusion.
    Finding the path is bad. Use Parity Shift if you have them to give out.
    With Parity Shifts in there, mixing in a Secret Horde for one of the
    STIs is a good idea (to control your pool levels better, assuming you
    can count well :-)

    You could also mix a couple, like, Anarchist Uprising (or whatever the
    VTES version is) in instead of a few KRC/Con Ag for spice and weenie
    punishement--maybe like 4/4/2 would be a good mix. Maybe a Praxis
    Seizure too, as most people have wayyy too many already.

    >Actions 2
    >2xThe Fourth Tradition: The Accounting

    Nice.
    >Action Modifers 14
    >6x(A mix of Bribes and Animal Magnetism)
    >8x(A mix of stealth)

    Nice.

    >Combat 8
    >2x Shattering Blow
    >2x Skin of Steel
    >4x Disguised Weapon

    Reasonable. Might want a couple more SoS, but ya know, whatever.

    >Equipment 7
    >2x Laptop Computers
    >Lear Jet
    >4x(A mix of Blow Torch/Submachine Gun)

    Machine Gun is probably too expensive (the jump from 2 pool for a
    Magnum to 4 pool for a Subgun is too much unless you have additional
    strikes to make it pay off)--I'd just use Magnums. Heck, or .38's for
    defensive technology, really. Blow Torch is good too.

    >Reaction 5
    >3x Rat's Warning
    >2x Cat's Guidance

    Good. This deck looks much more viable (given its environment) than the
    previous one--significant ousting power, stealth, light combat, some
    general defense. All in all, a good beginner deck with a nice focus.


    -Peter
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Xian" <xian@visi.com> wrote
    > Some Computer Hackings couldn't hurt. They're always a good time.

    That increases the bleed of course, the HL is operating as a deterant.
    For a trifling bleed of one, is tempting just to let it go (but watching
    newbie pool sliding away which is hard to recover)
    For a bleed of two it's worth a bit of a pounding to stop since vamps can
    usually hunt even in lower level decks.

    I don't know if a newbie would recognise the importance the HL threat or the
    importance of card cycling.

    But in low level game, not having the edge, little in the way of pool gain,
    and a reduction in possibility of bringing out another vamp (as the pool
    loss is greater than a few tiny bleeds) it's worth the whittle away.

    But...the HL taps 2 vamps each time which give an opening for return
    heavier-bleedsnd if the HL deck has inferior number of minions it can be
    very hard to protect yourself at all. And the stealth bleeds so small and
    card-reliant as to make a punishing retribution difficult.
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Hey Peter,

    We had a certified beginner try this deck today instead of her usual
    S&B deck. She swept the table (with some help from another player who
    say out and explained all the cards). I just wanted to thank everyone
    for their help. This deck turned out well.

    Cheers,
    Preston
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:

    > We had a certified beginner try this deck today instead of her usual
    > S&B deck. She swept the table (with some help from another player who
    > say out and explained all the cards). I just wanted to thank everyone
    > for their help. This deck turned out well.

    Right on!


    Peter D Bakija
    pdb6@lightlink.com
    http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

    "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
    easily spilled liquids to naked people."
    -Brittni Meil
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