12th Level Commoner

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

So, why would a 12th level commoner be in a city? How would someone get
to that high of a level in the first place? THe DMG says commoners get
to be higher levels by fightin off gnolls and such, but in a big city
how would that work. I ask because my DM mentioned that we needed to
find this guy and I was looking at what his story might be.

 

[Joseph]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Dormammu <Dormammu@thedarkdimension.com> wrote in news:yFMTe.71961
$Ji4.46730@fed1read03:

> So, why would a 12th level commoner be in a city? How would someone get
> to that high of a level in the first place? THe DMG says commoners get
> to be higher levels by fightin off gnolls and such, but in a big city
> how would that work. I ask because my DM mentioned that we needed to
> find this guy and I was looking at what his story might be.


I would suggest using story rewards as a rationale. The 12th level commoner
probably has experienced plenty of non-combat challenges during his time in
the city. He should be very skilled in his chosen vocation.

 

[marc]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote in
news:Xns96CAE6BD4526C619void@199.45.49.11:

> Dormammu <Dormammu@thedarkdimension.com> wrote in news:yFMTe.71961
> $Ji4.46730@fed1read03:
>
>> So, why would a 12th level commoner be in a city? How would someone
>> get to that high of a level in the first place? THe DMG says
>> commoners get to be higher levels by fightin off gnolls and such, but
>> in a big city how would that work. I ask because my DM mentioned
>> that we needed to find this guy and I was looking at what his story
>> might be.
>
>
> I would suggest using story rewards as a rationale. The 12th level
> commoner probably has experienced plenty of non-combat challenges
> during his time in the city. He should be very skilled in his chosen
> vocation.
>

Or bloody old.

I've toyed with the the idea that npc's gain levels at the rate of 1
year per level gained after they become adults.
so around 17-19 they become first level, then two years later after
doing mundane things, they become third and so forth. You get your
middle aged commoners being about level 5 beginning in their thirties.
People who've taken part in events I'd level up at the end of the event.
So in my scheme, your guy would be probably in his late forties or
fifties, and (depending on how long your people live)have been around
the block a few times. Probably conscripted into an army to bulk out
his lord's forces a bit as some form of fodder for a couple of years,
dealt with a really harsh winter, and faced drought a couple of times.
That plus other harsh life events.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 02:40:57 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:

>Dormammu <Dormammu@thedarkdimension.com> wrote in news:yFMTe.71961
>$Ji4.46730@fed1read03:
>
>> So, why would a 12th level commoner be in a city? How would someone get
>> to that high of a level in the first place? THe DMG says commoners get
>> to be higher levels by fightin off gnolls and such, but in a big city
>> how would that work. I ask because my DM mentioned that we needed to
>> find this guy and I was looking at what his story might be.
>
>
>I would suggest using story rewards as a rationale. The 12th level commoner
>probably has experienced plenty of non-combat challenges during his time in
>the city. He should be very skilled in his chosen vocation.

Don't commoners get hit dice as they go up in level?

 

[Joseph]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

rgorman@block.net (David Johnston) wrote in
news:431f8381.48270662@news.telusplanet.net:

> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 02:40:57 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Dormammu <Dormammu@thedarkdimension.com> wrote in news:yFMTe.71961
>>$Ji4.46730@fed1read03:
>>
>>> So, why would a 12th level commoner be in a city? How would someone
>>> get to that high of a level in the first place? THe DMG says
>>> commoners get to be higher levels by fightin off gnolls and such,
>>> but in a big city how would that work. I ask because my DM
>>> mentioned that we needed to find this guy and I was looking at what
>>> his story might be.
>>
>>
>>I would suggest using story rewards as a rationale. The 12th level
>>commoner probably has experienced plenty of non-combat challenges
>>during his time in the city. He should be very skilled in his chosen
>>vocation.
>
> Don't commoners get hit dice as they go up in level?

Yes, but so do wizards. And wizards with story experience awards don't
have to have much combat experience to rise in levels.

--
Remove 619 for Verizon e-mail address.

Add jovu to 619@msn.com for alternative MSN e-mail address.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Dormammu wrote:

> So, why would a 12th level commoner be in a city? How would someone get
> to that high of a level in the first place? THe DMG says commoners get
> to be higher levels by fightin off gnolls and such, but in a big city
> how would that work. I ask because my DM mentioned that we needed to
> find this guy and I was looking at what his story might be.

NPC gain levels by DM fiat.

If you don't like that explanation, then remember that XP rules are for
player character development. NPC's gain much less power, so likely need
less XP and face different challenges.

Finally, the NPC may simply have been in an adventure for six months of
his youth and took all NPC class levels.

CH

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:

> But with wizards we can assume that knowing more magic inherently
> makes you tougher.

Many skills start doing "impossible" things at DC30+.

A level 12 commoner has 15 ranks in his best skill, probably
started with a 13 in the governing ability, and has 3 ability
increases for a 16 ability (+3), he has skill focus (+3), and
may well have a +2/+2 feat (+2), masterwork tools or whatever
(+2), and he has enough money for some magic (say +5).

So he likely hits 40 on a take ten with his best skill. Or
master at the skill (makes a 20) + an additional "impossible"
extra effect that increases the DC by 20 more.

Sounds magical enough. If knowing magic makes you inherently
tougher, and in a fundamentally magical universe (which D&D
land is) that really high skills are magical (which they
wure act like), then it is no real problem for commoners to
get tougher.

D&D3.x assumes that if you are good enough at ANYTHING it
requires that you have the mojo represented by extra HD and
the basic physical skills that give an increased BAB.

Live with it. (Or don't, the game doesn't really suffer from
the removal of high level commoners, level 1 is enough to
represent a master craftsman.)

DougL

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
> Mere moments before death, DougL hastily scrawled:
> >David Johnston wrote:
> >
> >> But with wizards we can assume that knowing more magic inherently
> >> makes you tougher.
> >
> >Many skills start doing "impossible" things at DC30+.
> >
> >A level 12 commoner has 15 ranks in his best skill, probably
> >started with a 13 in the governing ability, and has 3 ability
> >increases for a 16 ability (+3), he has skill focus (+3), and
> >may well have a +2/+2 feat (+2), masterwork tools or whatever
> >(+2), and he has enough money for some magic (say +5).
>
> Not quite, he can only afford a +3 weapon at best, and not much more.
> By definition, a 12 Com is an NPC and would only have 27,000gp worth
> of gear. Which means he's probably got a +1 weapon, some +1 armor and
> a couple minor magic items, potions and such most likely.

Except I'm EXPLICITLY looking at skill checks, not attacks.
Hence Skill Ranks (NOT BAB), Skill Focus (NOT Weapon Focus),
a +2/+2 feat, masterwork tools for +2 rather than a master
work weapon for +1, ext....

Then there was the snipped discussion of DC rather than AC.

A +5 bonus to a skill is 2,500; well within his budget.
Even +10 at 10,000 is quite possible.

DougL

 

[Tim]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> toyed with the the idea that npc's gain levels at the rate of 1
> year per level gained after they become adults.
> so around 17-19 they become first level, then two years later after
> doing mundane things, they become third and so forth. You get your
> middle aged commoners being about level 5 beginning in their thirties.

That puts me at about level 6. Might go kick some ass in a pub tonight!



Tim

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, DougL hastily scrawled:
>David Johnston wrote:
>
>> But with wizards we can assume that knowing more magic inherently
>> makes you tougher.
>
>Many skills start doing "impossible" things at DC30+.
>
>A level 12 commoner has 15 ranks in his best skill, probably
>started with a 13 in the governing ability, and has 3 ability
>increases for a 16 ability (+3), he has skill focus (+3), and
>may well have a +2/+2 feat (+2), masterwork tools or whatever
>(+2), and he has enough money for some magic (say +5).

Not quite, he can only afford a +3 weapon at best, and not much more.
By definition, a 12 Com is an NPC and would only have 27,000gp worth
of gear. Which means he's probably got a +1 weapon, some +1 armor and
a couple minor magic items, potions and such most likely.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 08:13:18 GMT, Joseph <jovu619@verizon.net> wrote:

>rgorman@block.net (David Johnston) wrote in
>news:431f8381.48270662@news.telusplanet.net:
>
>> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 02:40:57 GMT, Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Dormammu <Dormammu@thedarkdimension.com> wrote in news:yFMTe.71961
>>>$Ji4.46730@fed1read03:
>>>
>>>> So, why would a 12th level commoner be in a city? How would someone
>>>> get to that high of a level in the first place? THe DMG says
>>>> commoners get to be higher levels by fightin off gnolls and such,
>>>> but in a big city how would that work. I ask because my DM
>>>> mentioned that we needed to find this guy and I was looking at what
>>>> his story might be.
>>>
>>>
>>>I would suggest using story rewards as a rationale. The 12th level
>>>commoner probably has experienced plenty of non-combat challenges
>>>during his time in the city. He should be very skilled in his chosen
>>>vocation.
>>
>> Don't commoners get hit dice as they go up in level?
>
>Yes, but so do wizards. And wizards with story experience awards don't
>have to have much combat experience to rise in levels.

But with wizards we can assume that knowing more magic inherently
makes you tougher.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, DougL hastily scrawled:
>Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>> Mere moments before death, DougL hastily scrawled:
>> >David Johnston wrote:
>> >
>> >> But with wizards we can assume that knowing more magic inherently
>> >> makes you tougher.
>> >
>> >Many skills start doing "impossible" things at DC30+.
>> >
>> >A level 12 commoner has 15 ranks in his best skill, probably
>> >started with a 13 in the governing ability, and has 3 ability
>> >increases for a 16 ability (+3), he has skill focus (+3), and
>> >may well have a +2/+2 feat (+2), masterwork tools or whatever
>> >(+2), and he has enough money for some magic (say +5).
>>
>> Not quite, he can only afford a +3 weapon at best, and not much more.
>> By definition, a 12 Com is an NPC and would only have 27,000gp worth
>> of gear. Which means he's probably got a +1 weapon, some +1 armor and
>> a couple minor magic items, potions and such most likely.
>
>Except I'm EXPLICITLY looking at skill checks, not attacks.

mea culpa



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
> Mere moments before death, DougL hastily scrawled:

> >Except I'm EXPLICITLY looking at skill checks, not attacks.
>
> mea culpa

Of course I did assume that a bonus item would exist, that it
would stack with MW tools, that a +2/+2 feat would exist,....

So I did stack the deck quite a bit.

But the point I was trying to make is that ALL high level
D&D3.x characters have magical mojo and can do extraordinary
things. If you don't mind a non-adventuring Lore Master gaining
HP and BAB (or an Urban Bard who overcomes all his challenges
via diplomacy) then there is no good reason to object to a
commoner getting HD and BAB.

A Com12 has less Mojo than any other level 12 character, but
he can still do stuff that normal people couldn't, he still
takes about 1/12th the effect from magic missiles or inflict
spells of a "normal" person (assuming he fails his save on
the inflict, and that will happen less often than for a
"normal" person), he still recovers about 1/12th the damage
from a cure spell, and he is still immune to effects that only
affect characters with 11 or fewer HD.

So if a Scholar/Wizard can reasonably have extra BAB and HD,
"because it's magic" then the same can work for a commoner.
The commoner has a lot less Mojo, but then that is reflected
by no spells, fewer feats, ext....

DougL

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Clawhound <none@nowhere.com> writes

>NPC gain levels by DM fiat.

Exactly so.

--
Ian R Malcomson
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Xns96CB2AF2D434D619void@199.45.49.11>,
Joseph <jovu619@verizon.net> wrote:

> rgorman@block.net (David Johnston) wrote in
> news:431f8381.48270662@news.telusplanet.net:

> > Don't commoners get hit dice as they go up in level?
>
> Yes, but so do wizards. And wizards with story experience awards don't
> have to have much combat experience to rise in levels.

It's a medieval fantasy world, guys. That 12th level commoner probably
wins competitions in stick or staff fighting at local fairs, hunts with
a crossbow, wrestles for fun and so forth. You don't need to be a
professional killer to train combat-related skills.

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> "DougL" <lampert.doug@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1126280005.571477.64530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > If you don't mind a non-adventuring Lore Master gaining
> > HP and BAB (or an Urban Bard who overcomes all his challenges
> > via diplomacy) then there is no good reason to object to a
> > commoner getting HD and BAB.
>
> <raises hand> Yes there is. The D&D system is founded on the assumption
> of class-based background training, and your class capabilities by level
> determine what you train in. Lore Masters are player character classes for
> spellcasting adventurers and even if one chooses to sit and drink tea more
> often than not, his *training* includes combat. The same is most certainly
> true for this "Urban Bard" - he may rely on diplomacy and succeed, but he
> has steel to back up his words. It is very difficult to justify *non*
> adventuring entities such as commoners nontheless training in combat so
> regularly that they can improve upon it as they gain grit from overcoming
> other 'story' challenges - yet, if the system is to be self consistent, then
> that must be what the 'commoner' is in fact doing!
>
> Your offering of "it's magic" as an explanation for these things is
> stupid.

Not my offering. Follow the thread. David Johnston made that claim and
in my first reply I specifically said "If knowing magic makes you
inherently tougher".

Ed then objected to an example based on skills using rules based on
BAB.

In my LAST reply I specifically said: 'So if a Scholar/Wizard can
reasonably have extra BAB and HD, "because it's magic"'

In both cases it is EXPLICITLY a hypothetical in my post. I am
debating the consequences of David's assumption that wizards
get additional HP and BAB from magic, not the validity of that
assumption.

DougL

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"DougL" <lampert.doug@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126280005.571477.64530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> If you don't mind a non-adventuring Lore Master gaining
> HP and BAB (or an Urban Bard who overcomes all his challenges
> via diplomacy) then there is no good reason to object to a
> commoner getting HD and BAB.

<raises hand> Yes there is. The D&D system is founded on the assumption
of class-based background training, and your class capabilities by level
determine what you train in. Lore Masters are player character classes for
spellcasting adventurers and even if one chooses to sit and drink tea more
often than not, his *training* includes combat. The same is most certainly
true for this "Urban Bard" - he may rely on diplomacy and succeed, but he
has steel to back up his words. It is very difficult to justify *non*
adventuring entities such as commoners nontheless training in combat so
regularly that they can improve upon it as they gain grit from overcoming
other 'story' challenges - yet, if the system is to be self consistent, then
that must be what the 'commoner' is in fact doing!

Your offering of "it's magic" as an explanation for these things is
stupid.

-Michael

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> It is very difficult to justify *non* adventuring entities such as
> commoners nontheless training in combat so regularly that they can
> improve upon it as they gain grit from overcoming other 'story'
> challenges --

It's only "very difficult" if you're both ignorant and unimaginative.
Last time this came up, did we spank you so hard that you forgot this?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <slrndihh49.r9g.bradd+news@szonye.com>,
"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:

> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > It is very difficult to justify *non* adventuring entities such as
> > commoners nontheless training in combat so regularly that they can
> > improve upon it as they gain grit from overcoming other 'story'
> > challenges --
>
> It's only "very difficult" if you're both ignorant and unimaginative.
> Last time this came up, did we spank you so hard that you forgot this?

Well, to be fair to Michael commoners (in most DnD worlds) simply don't
face the same kind of challenges adventurers do very often. So you do
have to kind of bend the rules a bit to give a commoner xp for finding a
lost cow in a snowstorm, or winning a local staff contest, since while
these might be challenging problems the stakes in these cases are
relatively low. Particularly for a 12th level commoner.

Myself I prefer to pretend in-game that the combat=powerups direct link
does not exist, even though it does. So I am perfectly comfortable with
a commoner who is 12th level just because they have been hunting,
scrapping and herding all their life.

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kevin Lowe wrote:
> In article <slrndihh49.r9g.bradd+news@szonye.com>,
> "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>
> > Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > > It is very difficult to justify *non* adventuring entities such as
> > > commoners nontheless training in combat so regularly that they can
> > > improve upon it as they gain grit from overcoming other 'story'
> > > challenges --
> >
> > It's only "very difficult" if you're both ignorant and unimaginative.
> > Last time this came up, did we spank you so hard that you forgot this?
>
> Well, to be fair to Michael commoners (in most DnD worlds) simply don't
> face the same kind of challenges adventurers do very often. So you do
> have to kind of bend the rules a bit to give a commoner xp for finding a
> lost cow in a snowstorm, or winning a local staff contest, since while
> these might be challenging problems the stakes in these cases are
> relatively low. Particularly for a 12th level commoner.
>
> Myself I prefer to pretend in-game that the combat=powerups direct link
> does not exist, even though it does. So I am perfectly comfortable with
> a commoner who is 12th level just because they have been hunting,
> scrapping and herding all their life.
>

The last time this came up, there's a problem with this. The majority
of high level commoners are in cities, not out in the towns and such
where they would be far more likely to come across daily 'combat' type
challenges.

- Justisaur

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jim Davies wrote:
> Behold! for Kevin Lowe <me@private.net> spake unto the multitude thus:
>
> >Myself I prefer to pretend in-game that the combat=powerups direct link
> >does not exist, even though it does. So I am perfectly comfortable with
> >a commoner who is 12th level just because they have been hunting,
> >scrapping and herding all their life.
>
> The trouble is that a 12th level commoner is about equal to a 6th
> level fighter, but gets far fewer xp for the same challenge (see
> another post of mine today).

A 6th lv fighter? Are you sure? My guestimate would put them more
like 3 or 4...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, Justisaur hastily scrawled:
>Kevin Lowe wrote:
>> In article <slrndihh49.r9g.bradd+news@szonye.com>,
>> "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>> > Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> > >
>> > > It is very difficult to justify *non* adventuring entities such as
>> > > commoners nontheless training in combat so regularly that they can
>> > > improve upon it as they gain grit from overcoming other 'story'
>> > > challenges --
>> >
>> > It's only "very difficult" if you're both ignorant and unimaginative.
>> > Last time this came up, did we spank you so hard that you forgot this?
>>
>> Well, to be fair to Michael commoners (in most DnD worlds) simply don't
>> face the same kind of challenges adventurers do very often. So you do
>> have to kind of bend the rules a bit to give a commoner xp for finding a
>> lost cow in a snowstorm, or winning a local staff contest, since while
>> these might be challenging problems the stakes in these cases are
>> relatively low. Particularly for a 12th level commoner.
>>
>> Myself I prefer to pretend in-game that the combat=powerups direct link
>> does not exist, even though it does. So I am perfectly comfortable with
>> a commoner who is 12th level just because they have been hunting,
>> scrapping and herding all their life.
>>
>
>The last time this came up, there's a problem with this. The majority
>of high level commoners are in cities, not out in the towns and such
>where they would be far more likely to come across daily 'combat' type
>challenges.

*bzzzt*

Just because they're in cities, doesn't mean they have fewer
encounters. Quite the opposite actually, when you consider all the
Rogues and so forth inhabiting a typical D&D city. City encounters
are just "different".



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Behold! for Kevin Lowe <me@private.net> spake unto the multitude thus:

>Myself I prefer to pretend in-game that the combat=powerups direct link
>does not exist, even though it does. So I am perfectly comfortable with
>a commoner who is 12th level just because they have been hunting,
>scrapping and herding all their life.

The trouble is that a 12th level commoner is about equal to a 6th
level fighter, but gets far fewer xp for the same challenge (see
another post of mine today).

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jim Davies wrote:
> Behold! for Kevin Lowe <me@private.net> spake unto the multitude thus:
>
>>Myself I prefer to pretend in-game that the combat=powerups direct link
>>does not exist, even though it does. So I am perfectly comfortable with
>>a commoner who is 12th level just because they have been hunting,
>>scrapping and herding all their life.
>
> The trouble is that a 12th level commoner is about equal to a 6th
> level fighter, but gets far fewer xp for the same challenge (see
> another post of mine today).

NOT ALL CHALLENGES INVOLVE HITTING THINGS WITH METAL BARS!

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:02:30 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz>
wrote:

>Jim Davies wrote:
>> Behold! for Kevin Lowe <me@private.net> spake unto the multitude thus:
>>
>>>Myself I prefer to pretend in-game that the combat=powerups direct link
>>>does not exist, even though it does. So I am perfectly comfortable with
>>>a commoner who is 12th level just because they have been hunting,
>>>scrapping and herding all their life.
>>
>> The trouble is that a 12th level commoner is about equal to a 6th
>> level fighter, but gets far fewer xp for the same challenge (see
>> another post of mine today).
>
> NOT ALL CHALLENGES INVOLVE HITTING THINGS WITH METAL BARS!

While that is true, I kind of want becoming that good at combat to
reflect at least some combat experience.