LSJ:valerius and block fails

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Valerius is attempting to block a minion. That minion's controller
plays <block fails> card. Valerius is no longer blocking. Can the
acting minion now play obf cards and the like against non-valerius
minions?

G

 

[Guest]

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talonz wrote:

> Valerius is attempting to block a minion. That minion's controller
> plays <block fails> card. Valerius is no longer blocking. Can the
> acting minion now play obf cards and the like against non-valerius
> minions?

(assuming advanced Valerius)

No. Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
cannot play Obfuscte cards.

--
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[Quetzalcoatl]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> Morgan Vening wrote:
> > Spider-Killer attempts to bleed. This is at an innate +1 stealth. Can
> > Valerius(ADV) attempt to block, fail, and still have his special
> > apply? This seems to be yes,
>
> Yes.

Valerius just gets better and better.

I supposed he needs to play an eagle's sight to mess with cross-table
obfuscate etc correct?

David

 

[Guest]

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Daneel wrote:
What am I missing?


You are missing Seduction or OBT or NEC Stealth. ;-)

Frank

 

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Daneel wrote:
> Can two minions be attempting to block at the same time?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> That would imply that there is a definite termination to a block attempt

You're completely correct here.

The rules on block attempts even note "If one attempt to block fails,
another can be made as often as the blocking Methuselah wishes" - this
is part of that 'only one attempt at a time' logic, as well as
establishing that a blocking attempt does have an end.

> (and as such, the "attempting to block" can cease).

This is true, but irrelevant, because Valerius's text does not trigger
on if he is "attempting to block" but if he merely makes an attempt.

While it's understandable that you (or other people) might feel that
the way the card _should_ work is 'only when he's currently attempting
to block', the way the card _does_ work (and is worded) is that once he
attempts to block, further use of Obf/Chi cards is prohibited.

And yes, that's very powerful if you happen to have an Obfuscate or
Chimerstry deck behind you. But in a lot of games, it might as well say
'you may skip and dance and prance in your chair' for all the good it
does you.

There are plenty of vampires (and library cards) with extremely
powerful yet limited-use/corner-case abilities already. This is just
another. Heck, a lot of the time, I'd rather have _either_ of Count
Germaine's specials, as they're more likely to be useful.

With regards to 'this card is broken' - by all means, provide the group
with evidence of it. Play a Valerius deck in a tourney and see if you
can stomp people with it. I've seen one Valerius deck make a final
table (but not win) in a smaller tourney so far, and haven't even heard
of anybody else trying it successfully yet.

> --
> Bye,
>
> Daneel

-John Flournoy

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

>talonz wrote:
>
>> Valerius is attempting to block a minion. That minion's controller
>> plays <block fails> card. Valerius is no longer blocking. Can the
>> acting minion now play obf cards and the like against non-valerius
>> minions?
>
>(assuming advanced Valerius)
>
>No. Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
>cannot play Obfuscte cards.

Additional query.

Spider-Killer attempts to bleed. This is at an innate +1 stealth. Can
Valerius(ADV) attempt to block, fail, and still have his special
apply? This seems to be yes, but I'm unsure whether 'attempts to
block' requires the capacity to do so, even if subsequently made
inelligible.

Morgan Vening

 

[Guest]

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Morgan Vening wrote:
> Spider-Killer attempts to bleed. This is at an innate +1 stealth. Can
> Valerius(ADV) attempt to block, fail, and still have his special
> apply? This seems to be yes,

Yes.

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On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> talonz wrote:
>
>> Valerius is attempting to block a minion. That minion's controller
>> plays <block fails> card. Valerius is no longer blocking. Can the
>> acting minion now play obf cards and the like against non-valerius
>> minions?
>
> (assuming advanced Valerius)
>
> No. Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
> cannot play Obfuscte cards.

This is odd. I thought that you needed to "attempt to block" after each
effect the acting minion played to thwart the previous block attempt
(most common effect being adding Stealth beyond the blocking minion's
Intercept). What am I missing?

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[Guest]

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Daneel wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>> Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
>> cannot play Obfuscte cards.
>
> This is odd. I thought that you needed to "attempt to block" after each
> effect the acting minion played to thwart the previous block attempt
> (most common effect being adding Stealth beyond the blocking minion's
> Intercept). What am I missing?

Card text: "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play action
modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate [obf]."

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[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:10:10 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> Daneel wrote:
>> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>> Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
>>> cannot play Obfuscte cards.
>>
>> This is odd. I thought that you needed to "attempt to block" after each
>> effect the acting minion played to thwart the previous block attempt
>> (most common effect being adding Stealth beyond the blocking minion's
>> Intercept). What am I missing?
>
> Card text: "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play
> action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or
> Obfuscate [obf]."

Yes. But once Valerius no longer attempts to block (that is, the acting
minion has increased his stealth, caused Valesius' block attempt to fail,
etc.), the effect should stop. Apparently from what you wrote earlier, it
doesn't. I'm curious why...

"If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play action
modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate
[obf]."

....is equivalent to:

"An acting minion cannot play action modifier or combat cards that require
Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate [obf] if Valerius currently attempts to
block,
has attempted to block or has succesfully blocked the current action."

The ability makes sense either way as far as game mechanics are concerned
(especially given how stealth cannot be increased unless needed).

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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"Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> schreef in bericht
newspsr1rare1o6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:10:10 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Daneel wrote:
>>> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>>> Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
>>>> cannot play Obfuscte cards.
>>>
>>> This is odd. I thought that you needed to "attempt to block" after each
>>> effect the acting minion played to thwart the previous block attempt
>>> (most common effect being adding Stealth beyond the blocking minion's
>>> Intercept). What am I missing?
>>
>> Card text: "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play
>> action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or
>> Obfuscate [obf]."
>
> Yes. But once Valerius no longer attempts to block (that is, the acting
> minion has increased his stealth, caused Valesius' block attempt to fail,
> etc.), the effect should stop. Apparently from what you wrote earlier, it
> doesn't. I'm curious why...

see the Rulings on Blessing of Chaos. Card text says: "attempts to block".
You can attempt to block regardless of intercept because you first have to
attempt before you can even start playing intercept. Which part of the card
text says that the effect should stop once Valerius' block fails? He
attempted it, and that all that was needed.

as an aside:
this happened in a game:
Arika (controlled by my predator, playing a presence vote deck) plays KRC.
My Casino reeds (with blessing of Chaos) tries to block, doesn't play
intercept. Arika cannot play any presence cards during this action. (Voter
Cap, BO, Awe)
same with his other 2 minions calling votes. That's wat makes Blessing of
Chaos such a powerful card.

 

[Guest]

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Daneel a écrit :
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:10:10 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Daneel wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>>
>>>> Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
>>>> cannot play Obfuscte cards.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is odd. I thought that you needed to "attempt to block" after each
>>> effect the acting minion played to thwart the previous block attempt
>>> (most common effect being adding Stealth beyond the blocking minion's
>>> Intercept). What am I missing?
>>
>>
>> Card text: "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot
>> play action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or
>> Obfuscate [obf]."
>
>
> Yes. But once Valerius no longer attempts to block (that is, the acting
> minion has increased his stealth, caused Valesius' block attempt to fail,
> etc.), the effect should stop. Apparently from what you wrote earlier, it
> doesn't. I'm curious why...
>
> "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play action
> modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate
> [obf]."
>
> ...is equivalent to:
>
> "An acting minion cannot play action modifier or combat cards that require
> Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate [obf] if Valerius currently attempts to
> block,
> has attempted to block or has succesfully blocked the current action."
>
> The ability makes sense either way as far as game mechanics are concerned
> (especially given how stealth cannot be increased unless needed).

you did not understand : once valerius attempted to block, the action is
*tainted* and the "cannot play x cards" apply.
there was a precedent with blessing of chaos

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:25:14 GMT, Jeroen Rombouts
<jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote:

>
> "Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> schreef in bericht
> newspsr1rare1o6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:10:10 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Daneel wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>>>> Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
>>>>> cannot play Obfuscte cards.
>>>>
>>>> This is odd. I thought that you needed to "attempt to block" after
>>>> each
>>>> effect the acting minion played to thwart the previous block attempt
>>>> (most common effect being adding Stealth beyond the blocking minion's
>>>> Intercept). What am I missing?
>>>
>>> Card text: "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot
>>> play
>>> action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or
>>> Obfuscate [obf]."
>>
>> Yes. But once Valerius no longer attempts to block (that is, the acting
>> minion has increased his stealth, caused Valesius' block attempt to
>> fail,
>> etc.), the effect should stop. Apparently from what you wrote earlier,
>> it
>> doesn't. I'm curious why...
>
> see the Rulings on Blessing of Chaos. Card text says: "attempts to
> block".
> You can attempt to block regardless of intercept because you first have
> to
> attempt before you can even start playing intercept. Which part of the
> card
> text says that the effect should stop once Valerius' block fails? He
> attempted it, and that all that was needed.

Can two minions be attempting to block at the same time?

I don't think so.

That would imply that there is a definite termination to a block attempt
(and as such, the "attempting to block" can cease).

> this happened in a game:
> Arika (controlled by my predator, playing a presence vote deck) plays
> KRC.
> My Casino reeds (with blessing of Chaos) tries to block, doesn't play
> intercept. Arika cannot play any presence cards during this action.
> (Voter
> Cap, BO, Awe)
> same with his other 2 minions calling votes. That's wat makes Blessing of
> Chaos such a powerful card.

We've always played it in a way that only _current_ block attempts make
the playing of such cards impossible. It is way powerful even that way.
I think that what you describe is an example of a broken effect.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Daneel wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:25:14 GMT, Jeroen Rombouts
>> "Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> schreef in bericht
>>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:10:10 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>>> Card text: "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot
>>>> play
>>>> action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or
>>>> Obfuscate [obf]."
>>>
>>> Yes. But once Valerius no longer attempts to block (that is, the acting
>>> minion has increased his stealth, caused Valesius' block attempt to
>>> fail,
>>> etc.), the effect should stop. Apparently from what you wrote
>>> earlier, it
>>> doesn't. I'm curious why...
>>
>> see the Rulings on Blessing of Chaos. Card text says: "attempts to
>> block".
>> You can attempt to block regardless of intercept because you first
>> have to
>> attempt before you can even start playing intercept. Which part of the
>> card
>> text says that the effect should stop once Valerius' block fails? He
>> attempted it, and that all that was needed.
>
> Can two minions be attempting to block at the same time?
>
> I don't think so.

No.

> That would imply that there is a definite termination to a block attempt
> (and as such, the "attempting to block" can cease).

True, but that doesn't erase the fact that the first minion attempted
to block.

If Valerius attempts to block, some for-the-remainder-of-this-action
effect is generated. If a Blessing-from-Chaos minion attempts to
block, some for-the-remainder-of-this-action effect is generated.

>> this happened in a game:
>> Arika (controlled by my predator, playing a presence vote deck) plays
>> KRC.
>> My Casino reeds (with blessing of Chaos) tries to block, doesn't play
>> intercept. Arika cannot play any presence cards during this action.
>> (Voter
>> Cap, BO, Awe)
>> same with his other 2 minions calling votes. That's wat makes Blessing of
>> Chaos such a powerful card.
>
> We've always played it in a way that only _current_ block attempts make
> the playing of such cards impossible. It is way powerful even that way.

That's your right (as house rules go). But it's not what the card
says. Blessing doesn't say "while this minion is currently attempting
to block...".

> I think that what you describe is an example of a broken effect.

I think it is not.

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"Daneel" <daniel@eposta.hu> schreef in bericht
newspsr1zmer5o6j3lh@news.chello.hu...
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:25:14 GMT, Jeroen Rombouts
> <jeroen.rombouts@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote:

*snip things LSJ already answered*

> I think that what you describe is an example of a broken effect.
>
why? Blessing of Chaos only works on Dem, Chi, Dom and Pre and Valerieus's
ability only on chi and obf.

*both can still be Seduced. you may not even declare a block attempt.
*Against dem, dom, chi and presence bleed modifiers it just means (unless
your opponent is stupid) that you'll know for how much the bleed will be,
because they can play those before you attempt ot block. It will also mean
that your opponent cannot use the stealth of Bonding or Fata Morgana.
*It works GREAT against pres vote decks and majesty using S:CE-ers. But is
that broken?
* Valerius has an easier time blocking minions who rely on obf for stealth.
You cannot however base your entire intercept engine around this, because
there are other ways than obf to gain stealth. again, not broken, imo.
*also: in the snipped above example: if he would've been bleeding or taking
other 0 stealth actions, my block would have succeeded, and Casino would've
been tapped. Now I need a wake or untap effect to attempt to block the
others too.

How exactly do you think it's (=Blessing of Chaos) broken? Under the right
circumstances it's great, but in just as many cases it's a dead card in your
deck.

 

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:49:42 +0200, reyda <true_reyda@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Daneel a écrit :
>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:10:10 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Daneel wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:12:52 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Once advanced Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion
>>>>> cannot play Obfuscte cards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is odd. I thought that you needed to "attempt to block" after
>>>> each
>>>> effect the acting minion played to thwart the previous block attempt
>>>> (most common effect being adding Stealth beyond the blocking minion's
>>>> Intercept). What am I missing?
>>>
>>>
>>> Card text: "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot
>>> play action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or
>>> Obfuscate [obf]."
>>
>>
>> Yes. But once Valerius no longer attempts to block (that is, the acting
>> minion has increased his stealth, caused Valesius' block attempt to
>> fail,
>> etc.), the effect should stop. Apparently from what you wrote earlier,
>> it
>> doesn't. I'm curious why...
>>
>> "If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play action
>> modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate
>> [obf]."
>>
>> ...is equivalent to:
>>
>> "An acting minion cannot play action modifier or combat cards that
>> require
>> Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate [obf] if Valerius currently attempts to
>> block,
>> has attempted to block or has succesfully blocked the current action."
>>
>> The ability makes sense either way as far as game mechanics are
>> concerned
>> (especially given how stealth cannot be increased unless needed).
>
> you did not understand : once valerius attempted to block, the action is
> *tainted* and the "cannot play x cards" apply.
> there was a precedent with blessing of chaos

I understand what the card is supposed to do. I just don't see why (card
text, game balance, logic).

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Sorry to jump in at this juncture, repeating something I asked
previously but it seems to have gotten lost ...

It is clear that Valerius or a Blessings of Chaos vampire may "attempt"
to block even if they cannot generate the intercept to do so.

As such, can Valerius "attempt" to block cross-table without eagle's
sight or other such card and affect the acting minion? Or must he have
the capacity to block?

Additionally if I bleed with Minion A, Valerius attempts to block and I
Mask 1000 Faces. Can I actually do that? Would the new vampire be under
Valerius' effects?

David

 

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Daneel wrote:
>> I haven't seen Blessing of Chaos dominating the tournament scene. I
>> haven't
>> seen it played at all, actually, even in the NAC nor the EC (2004 nor
>> 2003).
>
> I'm not sure that dominating tournament play is the only way to be
> broken. Surely you wouldn't think that Drawing out the Beast decks
> or Meat Hook - Ex Nihilo decks dominated tournament play. Or even
> decks that used Succubus Club. I think that on the one hand a card
> does not need to be overpowered in order to be broken; on the other,
> a card/combo does not need to be overpowered in order to dominate
> tournament play (and vice verse).

No, but they were at least fielded in the tournaments.
If a card is actually broken, it's presence would be known at a
championship tournament.

> As for what personal experience is worth: a few tourneys back I was
> playing a Ravnos Breed deck using OBF CHI FOR PRE. During a prelim
> round my prey's first action was a Blessing of Chaos, and I didn't
> happen to hold any Direct Intervention...

Yes. It happens.

Once I had a Malkavian stolen with Malkavian Dementia. While he
was away, he burned himself. That's hosers for you.

--
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"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> schreef in bericht
news:yiFpe.1212$VK4.383@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Daneel wrote:
>>> I haven't seen Blessing of Chaos dominating the tournament scene. I
>>> haven't
>>> seen it played at all, actually, even in the NAC nor the EC (2004 nor
>>> 2003).
>>
>> I'm not sure that dominating tournament play is the only way to be
>> broken. Surely you wouldn't think that Drawing out the Beast decks
>> or Meat Hook - Ex Nihilo decks dominated tournament play. Or even
>> decks that used Succubus Club. I think that on the one hand a card
>> does not need to be overpowered in order to be broken; on the other,
>> a card/combo does not need to be overpowered in order to dominate
>> tournament play (and vice verse).
>
> No, but they were at least fielded in the tournaments.
> If a card is actually broken, it's presence would be known at a
> championship tournament.
>
didn't Robyn's deck contain a Blessing of Chaos?

 

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:47:26 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> Daneel wrote:
>>> I haven't seen Blessing of Chaos dominating the tournament scene. I
>>> haven't
>>> seen it played at all, actually, even in the NAC nor the EC (2004 nor
>>> 2003).
>>
>> I'm not sure that dominating tournament play is the only way to be
>> broken. Surely you wouldn't think that Drawing out the Beast decks
>> or Meat Hook - Ex Nihilo decks dominated tournament play. Or even
>> decks that used Succubus Club. I think that on the one hand a card
>> does not need to be overpowered in order to be broken; on the other,
>> a card/combo does not need to be overpowered in order to dominate
>> tournament play (and vice verse).
>
> No, but they were at least fielded in the tournaments.
> If a card is actually broken, it's presence would be known at a
> championship tournament.
>
>> As for what personal experience is worth: a few tourneys back I was
>> playing a Ravnos Breed deck using OBF CHI FOR PRE. During a prelim
>> round my prey's first action was a Blessing of Chaos, and I didn't
>> happen to hold any Direct Intervention...
>
> Yes. It happens.
>
> Once I had a Malkavian stolen with Malkavian Dementia. While he
> was away, he burned himself. That's hosers for you.

That's nasty. I've seen that once too (though the Malkavian in question
was Anatole, and he found the Inner Peace rather than burning himself).

Also, it may be a metagame thingy, but according to my experience the
only competitive deck that includes Malkavian Dementia is the one which
is built to use 2+ MPAs (and a corresponding increased number of Master
cards). Whereas Blessing of Chaos is one of the first cards a
Dementation deck considers if it wants to shift towards blocking or
toolbox. I've seen it many times at tournaments (though only once have
I been painfully hosed by it).

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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LSJ wrote:...
> You can Mask, and then the new minion begins suffering the restriction.
....
Mask is obf, and action modifier, so can you only play it because it is
not played by the minion currently acting?

 

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on a side nore, Valerius with DEM and blessings of Chaos. he heh heh

 

[Guest]

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quetzalcoatl wrote:
> Sorry to jump in at this juncture, repeating something I asked
> previously but it seems to have gotten lost ...
>
> It is clear that Valerius or a Blessings of Chaos vampire may "attempt"
> to block even if they cannot generate the intercept to do so.
>
> As such, can Valerius "attempt" to block cross-table without eagle's
> sight or other such card and affect the acting minion? Or must he have
> the capacity to block?

The latter.
Similarly, Day Operation would thwart the attempt.

> Additionally if I bleed with Minion A, Valerius attempts to block and I
> Mask 1000 Faces. Can I actually do that? Would the new vampire be under
> Valerius' effects?

You can Mask, and then the new minion begins suffering the restriction.

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1118284679.138370.87630@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Blooded Sand <sandmage@gmail.com> writes:
>LSJ wrote:...
>> You can Mask, and then the new minion begins suffering the restriction.
>...
>Mask is obf, and action modifier, so can you only play it because it is
>not played by the minion currently acting?

Exactly. Valerius only affects the acting minion - this guy with OBF
playing Mask over here isn't affected (yet).

Similarly, you could use Cloak the Gathering on the action, if it was
other vampires playing it at superior.

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