Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (
More info?)
Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
> I've encountered this in at least one book (Darwin's World):
>
> Rend
> Prerequisites: 2 or more claw attacks per round
> If you hit the same opponent with two or more claw attacks in the same
> round, you automatically rend for damage equal to twice your normal
> claw damage plus 1.5 times your Str bonus.
Erm... so iterative attacks with a single claw would count? That can't
be right. Or can you *have* iterative attacks with a natural weapon?
(ISTR that monsters can't... but I don't see why not, if trained to do
so -- a monk gets iterative attacks with his unarmed strikes, which are
natural attacks as far as this is concerned.)
> Does this seem like a reasonable (monster) feat? It strikes me as
> being possibly too powerful. I could see an Enlarged, raging Dragon
> Disciple really going to town with this. If he had 18 Str to begin
> with, rage bumps him up to 22, and Enlarge to 24, so claws for
> 1d6+7/1d6+7 and rend for 2d6+10 (then comes the bite).
What level character are you talking about? What is the schtick of the
Dragon Disciple otherwise?
Consider that a Rogue 7 gets +4d6 points of damage per sneak attack and
just needs to flank a creature (or have it denied Dex bonus to AC).
More or less comparable damage (4d6 is only about 3 points behind --
Rogue 9 would get +5d6 points, which is slightly higher on average), and
doesn't need to hit twice in the same round. A fighter at a similar
level can do *way* more damage than this -- than the raging DD's attacks
*combined*.
Yes, it's a horrendous thing to do to a creature, but consider how a
Fighter of similiar level with greatsword and PA rips into something
(especially on a crit!), or a raging half-orc (which may be even
stronger than the DD) with a greataxe.
Without looking too hard at DD, this doesn't strike me as *too*
powerful. Remember that it requires using claws and landing two other
attacks *before* getting to rend. With decent choice of targets it
probably comes up more often than criticals would, but does less damage
than they do at that level.
> Maybe make it a second feat in a chain? What would be the prereq?
Okay, these are just off the top of my head, without a lot of hard
thought (I'm tired tonight and going to sleep soon, I think), so MMV.
Yes, I think a previous feat would make sense. Perhaps one or more of:
.. Improved Unarmed Strike
Not required for the attack, since a claw attack is not considered
unarmed, but could represent (increased) skill fighting 'unarmed'
.. Weapon Focus (claws)
... increased skill fighting with claws
.. TWF
Of necessity you're fighting with two weapons (claws) for this to
happen. Semi-null prereq since I would expect most who would go for
Rend would have TWF if at all possible, to make it work better.
.. Power Attack
Ripping something apart is obviously an application of Strength; even
if you don't *use* PA in the attacks, having 'a policy' of powerful
attacks may be an appropriate prereq. OTOH, you might instead have
the PA damage bonus apply to the rend damage (treat as part of the
strength bonus, so increased by half, or double it -- one for each
hand, since they apparently get full Strength bonus for the claw
attack)
.. Combat Reflexes
You can't *quite* treat the rend as an AoO, but if you were to say
that it costs an immediate or swift action there's a half decent
argument that it's 'an extra attack'. Even if there's no roll to hit.
I probably wouldn't go this way, but I thought I'd mention it.
.. Ambidexterity
This is no longer in the (R)SRD, but makes some sense from the
'balanced strength perspective. I probably wouldn't do this one --
the application of strength needn't be balanced for rend.
.. Dex or Str prereq?
Either would be reasonable *anyway*, but TWF, PA, and CR all have
Strength or Dexterity prereqs, as did Ambidexterity (when it was
present in the rules). Perhaps a Dex-prereq feat and a straight-up
Str prereq (or vice versa)... though in any case a Str prereq is
probably pretty close to a null-prereq since this is only really
useful to high-Str creatures *anyway*.
.. only vs. smaller creatures?
Core creatures with Rend don't have this limitation, but it may be
appropriate for a feat.
.. BAB prereq
This seems like a somewhat advanced technique. Trolls (6HD, BAB +4)
can do it, but it's built in to their racial makeup. It feels a lot
like Improved Critical, actually; requiring BAB +8 probably isn't out
of line.
Okay, so taking the above, perhaps:
.. BAB +8 (in line with Improved Critical)
.. Weapon Focus (claw) (or IUS)
comes pretty close to reasonable. Improved Critical doesn't need Weapon
Focus, just proficiency, but I think either Weapon Focus or Improved
Unarmed Strike would be appropriate. As a DM I'd probably accept either
as indication of effort put into training this mode of fighting. Weapon
Focus is the more efficient of the two, since it actually gives a bonus
when fighting (while IUS is redundant because you're not really fighting
unarmed -- but if you had it anyway I wouldn't require Weapon Focus).
Anyone seriously pursuing this technique -- and I don't think you could
do it half-assed -- would almost certainly have PA as well (especially
if you add the PA damage to the rend) and probably TWF if the Dex is
high enough (makes it easier to hit with the second, offhand attack).
Neither of these can *really* be considered a prereq since they're
obvious choices, PA in particular. Requiring TWF is the same as
requiring Dex 15+, I think, and this isn't really a Dex technique.
> Or scrap it altogether?
I don't think so, I'm pretty sure it could be made to work reasonably.
Again, I'm not thinking *really* hard about this stuff right now, so
you'll have to consider how (and if!) the above should be applied.
However, a quick look through the RSRD suggested they may be reasonable
choices.
Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
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