VTES Online Beta

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I have the software installed and I am ready to go, so if you want to
play drop me a note ;-)

--
johannes walch
 
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On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:47:25 +0200, Johannes Walch
<johannes.walch@vekn.de> wrote:

>I have the software installed and I am ready to go, so if you want to
>play drop me a note ;-)

I am online right now as IgnazioGiovanni, but I only have an hour or
so to play...

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V for Vendetta on the big screen!
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
 
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Oh sure, just rub it in why don't you...

-------------------------------------------
Ethan Burrow - the pre/vic guy
http://monger.vekn.org/
 
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Hey getting to play it early means you have to put up with all the
bugs, things crashing, games that last 5hrs of confusing over how to do
things. Feel lucky that the first time you get to play it everything
"hopefully" will be fixed so you can actually have fun games and not
write big error reports at the end.

texasjusticar wrote:
> Oh sure, just rub it in why don't you...
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Ethan Burrow - the pre/vic guy
> http://monger.vekn.org/
 
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Johannes Walch a écrit :
> markvtes wrote:
> > Hey getting to play it early means you have to put up with all the
> > bugs, things crashing, games that last 5hrs of confusing over how to do
> > things. Feel lucky that the first time you get to play it everything
> > "hopefully" will be fixed so you can actually have fun games and not
> > write big error reports at the end.
>
> Yeah, played some games so far and got mixed results :-/ Some went very
> nice, some were almost unplayable. Yet, it´s good fun :)
>
> --
> johannes walch

And "obviously" does not work on mac. anyone wants my tester place?
Andrea
 
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Johannes Walch wrote:
> Yeah, played some games so far and got mixed results :-/ Some went very
> nice, some were almost unplayable. Yet, it´s good fun :)

I have the same opinion. Being limited to Camarilla Edition causes
frequent contesting problems especially in Malkavian and Tremere decks
where everyone seems to play with the "better" vampires.

The mechanic and the game environent(software) requires sometime to get
used to. It's a bit strange at the beggining especially to know where
are the (uncommon) options!

I've been playing it and i like it.

..- Luis Duarte
 
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markvtes wrote:
> Hey getting to play it early means you have to put up with all the
> bugs, things crashing, games that last 5hrs of confusing over how to do
> things. Feel lucky that the first time you get to play it everything
> "hopefully" will be fixed so you can actually have fun games and not
> write big error reports at the end.

Yeah, played some games so far and got mixed results :-/ Some went very
nice, some were almost unplayable. Yet, it´s good fun :)

--
johannes walch
 
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Howdy Andrea,

> And "obviously" does not work on mac. anyone wants my tester place?

You are correct that there is no Mac client for the gEngine. However,
it is possible to play via VirtualPC. I run VPC 6.1 w/ Winblows XP on
my Mini, and while it's a tad slow, it's sufficient for CCGW.

(I can't recommend VPC 6.1, but perhaps VPC 7 is better? The whole
thing worked better before Microsoft bought it... Doh!)

Anyway, I'm not sure it's worth running out and buying VPC just for
gEngine, but if you have a copy already, or if you have a few other
PC-only programs you need to run, it might be worth it. Otherwise,
sure, I'd be happy to enter the beta...

Hope that helps,
Alex
 
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"Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon" <luis.paleta@netcabo.pt> wrote in message
news:1118922894.515376.154190@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Being limited to Camarilla Edition

Ohmygawd, have they not implemented any more cards since the trial
period?!? What have they been doing in the intervening months?

The other huge issue I had with the game in December was how
little was automated. They provided counters for things like
current-action stealth, intercept, bleed, & votes and each
player's pool and each vampire's blood. But some incredibly
basic functions weren't automated and players would frequently
have to go increment counters manually. I realize it's
probably too complex a game to expect the whole thing to be
automated (and certain issues would become problematic if
you tried) but they could automate A *LOT* more than what was
in December. Could someone doing the Beta test say how that
piece is coming along?

Fred
 
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In message <1118922894.515376.154190@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon" <luis.paleta@netcabo.pt> writes:
>I have the same opinion. Being limited to Camarilla Edition causes
>frequent contesting problems especially in Malkavian and Tremere decks
>where everyone seems to play with the "better" vampires.

It's like playing basic set V:TES all over again. :)

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 
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In message <Wgmse.2056$wV5.830@fed1read06>, Frederick Scott
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> writes:
>I realize it's
>probably too complex a game to expect the whole thing to be
>automated (and certain issues would become problematic if
>you tried) but they could automate A *LOT* more than what was
>in December.

If you skim the forums, quite a few things have been automated and/or
improved to make it all easier. There are a number of posts canvassing
opinion, or explaining a little feature, over the last few months.

Relative to improving that, shoving a few dozen vampires through an XML-
izer to turn them into the information the Gatling Engine needs is
probably low priority.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 
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wumpus a écrit :
> Howdy Andrea,
>
> > And "obviously" does not work on mac. anyone wants my tester place?
>
> You are correct that there is no Mac client for the gEngine. However,
> it is possible to play via VirtualPC. I run VPC 6.1 w/ Winblows XP on
> my Mini, and while it's a tad slow, it's sufficient for CCGW.
>
> (I can't recommend VPC 6.1, but perhaps VPC 7 is better? The whole
> thing worked better before Microsoft bought it... Doh!)
>
> Anyway, I'm not sure it's worth running out and buying VPC just for
> gEngine, but if you have a copy already, or if you have a few other
> PC-only programs you need to run, it might be worth it. Otherwise,
> sure, I'd be happy to enter the beta...
>
> Hope that helps,
> Alex
I'll stick to JOL/ivtes thanks. I already have to fight against windoz
at work, i do not want to have nothing to do with it at home.

Mail me privately at andreajolATfastwebnetDOTitANDNOTHINGMORE and i'll
send a mail to ww to see if such a switch is possible.

BTW. I really hope WW will not do anything stupid against "the others"
online facilities the day CCG starts officially (Thay have been and are
a great support for the game for all those far away from other
playgroups and isolated).

Andrea
 
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>>Being limited to Camarilla Edition
>
>
> Ohmygawd, have they not implemented any more cards since the trial
> period?!? What have they been doing in the intervening months?
>
> The other huge issue I had with the game in December was how
> little was automated. They provided counters for things like
> current-action stealth, intercept, bleed, & votes and each
> player's pool and each vampire's blood. But some incredibly
> basic functions weren't automated and players would frequently
> have to go increment counters manually. I realize it's
> probably too complex a game to expect the whole thing to be
> automated (and certain issues would become problematic if
> you tried) but they could automate A *LOT* more than what was
> in December. Could someone doing the Beta test say how that
> piece is coming along?

Currently the "next big step" is implementing Madness Network
functionality ;-)
 
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On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:01:38 +0200, Johannes Walch
<johannes.walch@vekn.de> wrote:

>>>Being limited to Camarilla Edition
>>
>> Ohmygawd, have they not implemented any more cards since the trial
>> period?!? What have they been doing in the intervening months?
>>
>> The other huge issue I had with the game in December was how
>> little was automated. They provided counters for things like
>> current-action stealth, intercept, bleed, & votes and each
>> player's pool and each vampire's blood. But some incredibly
>> basic functions weren't automated and players would frequently
>> have to go increment counters manually. I realize it's
>> probably too complex a game to expect the whole thing to be
>> automated (and certain issues would become problematic if
>> you tried) but they could automate A *LOT* more than what was
>> in December. Could someone doing the Beta test say how that
>> piece is coming along?
>
>Currently the "next big step" is implementing Madness Network
>functionality ;-)

Which is now implemented - or at least a "madness mode" option now
exists.

I asked yesterday for an automated Magic of the Smith, or any simpler
way to search for the crypt. Right now you have to browse for all
cards there, and if you already downloaded all card images, like I
did, it means a lot of RAM being used and slows down the game a lot.
One idea is to have Magic of the Smith return a list of equipment
cards where you can choose which one to equip by a corresponding
number. Other is to just type the name of the card you want, the
engine responds with the closest names, and then you choose by a
corresponding number (that could be a basis for future implementation
of cards like Sybil's Tongue).

Nevertheless, Martin, the developer, is doing an astounding job of
automating and correcting things. There a new version of the engine
almost every day.

best,

Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Newsletter Editor
-----------------------------------------------------
V for Vendetta on the big screen!
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/
 
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"Fabio "Sooner"" <fabio_sooner@NOSPAMyahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:7vf6b110dhsqp3shm26be034tnn04o1ea9@4ax.com...
> Nevertheless, Martin, the developer, is doing an astounding job of
> automating and correcting things. There a new version of the engine
> almost every day.

Ah...? That sounds to some of us like Martin did a rotten job of
programming the thing in the first place if it requires a new version
of the engine every day. Or else the beta test is taking place long
before the engine was really stable enough.

Well, OK, truth is there's a bunch of stuff about this job I don't
know well enough to seriously criticize the work. But it doesn't
sit right to praise it, either. At least, not for the reason you're
giving.

Fred
 
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Howdy,

> > Nevertheless, Martin, the developer, is doing an astounding job of
> > automating and correcting things. There a new version of the engine
> > almost every day.
>
> Ah...? That sounds to some of us like Martin did a rotten job of
> programming the thing in the first place if it requires a new version
> of the engine every day. Or else the beta test is taking place long
> before the engine was really stable enough.
>
> Well, OK, truth is there's a bunch of stuff about this job I don't
> know well enough to seriously criticize the work. But it doesn't
> sit right to praise it, either. At least, not for the reason you're
> giving.

Martin's release schedule is pretty standard for CCGW. Games are
released to the public for 'beta' testing as soon as they are stable
(not crashing) and playable, where playable means exactly that: You
can play the game, if you are patient enough. Early releases generally
resemble a card table in functionality, with no frills and/or
automation, and all the 'manual' controls exposed (in case something
strange happens and you need to 'fix' it).

If no major problems are exposed by the beta, then the release is
opened up for 'general' use. Development, however, continues apace, at
least as long as there's demand for it and a developer to do the work.
Generally, this means more and more automation of game and card
mechanics. There is no real limit to the amount of such 'refining'
work that can be done, so the general consensus is that games should be
released sooner in the process rather than later.

These conventions for 'beta' and 'general' release don't really
correspond to their usage for, say operating systems releases (or at
least one hopes that OS's aren't released using the CCGW conventions),
but they are functional labels for the CCGW process.

Given the complexity of V:TES and Martin's fairly ambitious vision for
his implementation, I'd have to say that he's working at an impressive
pace. I hope he's getting paid - most CCGW devs are volunteers.

Anyway, that's probably more info than you wanted, but I hope it helps,
Alex
(Mythos Co-Project Lead)
 
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>Ohmygawd, have they not implemented any more cards since the trial
period?!? What have they been doing in the intervening months?

Stabilizing the code I would imagine.


>The other huge issue I had with the game in December was how
little was automated.

Again, functionality comes first. I don't see the point in automating
everything myself, but once the code is stable and the bugs are
eliminated, automation is simply a mater of putting it in over time.

In short, you're putting the cart before the horse currently.

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

talonz wrote:
|>Ohmygawd, have they not implemented any more cards since the trial
|
| period?!? What have they been doing in the intervening months?
|
| Stabilizing the code I would imagine.

The gatlingEngine required a LOT of work, last I looked at it -- but
that was the time it was on CCGW's website.

I suspect it has been significantly improved since then.

|>The other huge issue I had with the game in December was how
| little was automated.
|
| Again, functionality comes first. I don't see the point in automating
| everything myself, but once the code is stable and the bugs are
| eliminated, automation is simply a mater of putting it in over time.

Automating every card's play is a very ambitious undertaking. Some
cards are inherently extremely complex, and some set up far-reaching
future effects that have to be tracked over the course of time... which
is actually handled far more simply by a human.

I intentionally designed deckbot to be like a "pair of hands and a
table" for just those reasons; the players already handle most of this
stuff in their own minds when playing for real, it's not too much of a
stretch to ask them to do the same online. So yes, starting with
Camarilla Edition only is certainly a good way of getting a playable
game up while being able to identify whether automation is even properly
possible or not. :)

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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"wumpus" <wumpus7@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1119066128.730016.58940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Given the complexity of V:TES and Martin's fairly ambitious vision for
> his implementation, I'd have to say that he's working at an impressive
> pace. I hope he's getting paid - most CCGW devs are volunteers.
>
> Anyway, that's probably more info than you wanted, but I hope it helps,

Well, that previous sentence - about volunteers - says a world about the
business by itself. Thanks for the information.

Fred
 
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Derek Ray wrote:
>
> The gatlingEngine required a LOT of work, last I looked at it -- but
> that was the time it was on CCGW's website.
>

Its had alot of work since then, and most major bugs are revolving
around a few specefic points right now it looks like, and they are
working on a patch for that soon. All the minor bugs are being ironed
out day by day.

So overall, I'm quite optimistic.


>
> Automating every card's play is a very ambitious undertaking. Some
> cards are inherently extremely complex, and some set up far-reaching
> future effects that have to be tracked over the course of time... which
> is actually handled far more simply by a human.
>

Agreed. I'm not a fan of massive automation myself. I feel that most
automation doesn't necesarily speed things up, and merely boxes in the
players into the automated format rather than their own player
resolution.

A few cards seem to have moved partially to automation, although I
can't recall which ones at the moment. You automatically pay for
successful actions for instance, how hard would it be to have a
superior govern for instance automatically add 3 blood from the bank to
your chosen vampire?

But frankly, such automation is pretty low on the list of things to do,
and will remain so for some time.

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Frederick Scott escreveu:
> "Fabio "Sooner"" <fabio_sooner@NOSPAMyahoo.com.br> wrote in message
> news:7vf6b110dhsqp3shm26be034tnn04o1ea9@4ax.com...
> > Nevertheless, Martin, the developer, is doing an astounding job of
> > automating and correcting things. There a new version of the engine
> > almost every day.
>
> Ah...? That sounds to some of us like Martin did a rotten job of
> programming the thing in the first place if it requires a new version
> of the engine every day. Or else the beta test is taking place long
> before the engine was really stable enough.

Other than the fact that he's a volunteer with a very ambitious goal,
as already posted, it's imperative to explain that every new version of
the engine offers a couple of automated functions for certain cards -
like Madness Network - and *sometimes* a bugfix. There would be no room
for, per example, trimming the text log displayed with every card you
play, like talonz suggested and was done in this beta phase. There were
more pressing concerns at the time.

The thing is - the previous beta was a playmat with a few
non-card-related automated things and available for testing general
stability. So it closed for three months or so for migrating to it's
own server for WW. The new beta test phase is out for two things:
testing *server* stability, since the game general stability is near
perfection already; and for automating card functions that could be
automated without too much hassle for the players.

If there's a problem with this new beta test phase is that despite the
100 entries available, nobody seems to catch more than 10 or 11 players
online at the same time. No doubt it is a result from some not getting
the sign-up mail from CCG and the miriad of different timezones. 10
players logged in is nowhere near what we'll probably see once the game
is out for good, so probably there'll be a new inscription phase for
this beta still.


> Well, OK, truth is there's a bunch of stuff about this job I don't
> know well enough to seriously criticize the work. But it doesn't
> sit right to praise it, either. At least, not for the reason you're
> giving.
> Fred

The praising is a little bit of a "thank you Martin for spending your
free time just to see the game online, for no profit", yes. But
everyone who has previously dwelled on the gatlingEngine (I used to
play Rage a bit on there) knows how much V:tES is going farther on
automation than most games available there, so Martin truly deserves
the praising, even if he was to get any profit from it.

best,
 
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Derek Ray escreveu:
> Automating every card's play is a very ambitious undertaking. Some
> cards are inherently extremely complex, and some set up far-reaching
> future effects that have to be tracked over the course of time... which
> is actually handled far more simply by a human.
>
> I intentionally designed deckbot to be like a "pair of hands and a
> table" for just those reasons; the players already handle most of this
> stuff in their own minds when playing for real, it's not too much of a
> stretch to ask them to do the same online. So yes, starting with
> Camarilla Edition only is certainly a good way of getting a playable
> game up while being able to identify whether automation is even properly
> possible or not. :)
> - --
> Derek

I have the impression, and Martin can correct me if I'm wrong, that in
this stage "automation" is handled two ways:

- if the card has a one-time effect directed at one player, library,
ash heap or minion, let's try to automate it (note that does not mean D
actions only). The engine will do the work once you hit the "Action
Successful" button, or at least display a new window for the player to
handle specifics (like search your library for a card). Examples
include the rush cards that automatically start combat, Banishment etc.

- if the card has an overall effect, probably it's better to let
players handle it - but even then, at least an extra menu item could be
available for the player to click on and send automatic messages out to
the text log so other players can see what you're doing. What's
important is not to automate every card for its full extent, but to
reduce the need for players to type what they're doing. Most vampires'
specials work that way, and political cards like KRC.

But even that is no easy task. I guess that the game will not go for
full automation, but even then, there'll be plenty of cards to automate
once they're done with Cam edition and certain automated effects are
established. So automation is possible, yes, but at a limited pace and
priority.

best,