new, recent wallpaperization?

[mummy]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

So I was chatting with a part-time VtES player friend of mine. He
hasn't been keeping up with up the latest expansions, and he asked me,
"So which cards have become useless due to new cards?"

I thought about that a bit, and I couldn't come up with an answer.
Even the really good cards (we're talking BH, Gehenna, KMW, and, for
what it's worth, 10th anniversary when I say "latest expansions")
really only fill a niche of their own rather than bump a pre-existing
card out of that same niche.

Then again, I haven't been playing as much this year, so I turn to the
Internet, which is Always Right. In your opinion, Internet, have any
pre-BH cards become nerfed due to a kewler, more roxxor card in a
subsequent set?

cheers,
Jon

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

mummy wrote:
> So I was chatting with a part-time VtES player friend of mine. He
> hasn't been keeping up with up the latest expansions, and he asked me,
> "So which cards have become useless due to new cards?"
>
> I thought about that a bit, and I couldn't come up with an answer.
> Even the really good cards (we're talking BH, Gehenna, KMW, and, for
> what it's worth, 10th anniversary when I say "latest expansions")
> really only fill a niche of their own rather than bump a pre-existing
> card out of that same niche.
>
> Then again, I haven't been playing as much this year, so I turn to the
> Internet, which is Always Right. In your opinion, Internet, have any
> pre-BH cards become nerfed due to a kewler, more roxxor card in a
> subsequent set?
>
> cheers,
> Jon

I can't think of any real wallpaperization in the last few expansions.
There are several cards that provide better effects to a specific
clan/trait or whatever. Bay and Howl often trumps Tributes in a
!Gangrel deck, Powerbase:LA trumps The Barrens [and maybe Metro
Underground] in anarch decks, but the original cards are still quite
usable, even in the archetype where they are "trumped".

Do mention Anarch Revolt's new text to your friend, however. Views were
mixed when it was first announced, but I'm pretty sure consensus has
been that it was a reasonable change.

John

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Then again, I haven't been playing as much this year, so I turn to the
> Internet, which is Always Right. In your opinion, Internet, have any
> pre-BH cards become nerfed due to a kewler, more roxxor card in a
> subsequent set?

Bowl of Convergance has totally wallpapered the !Malks/Malks and their now
worthless tactic of Stealth Bleed. ;P


--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Then again, I haven't been playing as much this year, so I turn to the
> Internet, which is Always Right. In your opinion, Internet, have any
> pre-BH cards become nerfed due to a kewler, more roxxor card in a
> subsequent set?

This is the internet. Please step away from the curtain.

Smoke Grenade is now instantaneous wallpaper. That is, of course, since
Flash Grenade exists. And of course everyone knows about the soon-to-be
implemented Frederick the Weak nerf so that he can't crush tables anymore.

Ankur Gupta
Prince of West Lafayette

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"XZealot" <x_zealot@NoSpamcox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:d8pupl$qda$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
>
>> Then again, I haven't been playing as much this year, so I turn to the
>> Internet, which is Always Right. In your opinion, Internet, have any
>> pre-BH cards become nerfed due to a kewler, more roxxor card in a
>> subsequent set?
>
> Bowl of Convergance has totally wallpapered the !Malks/Malks and their now
> worthless tactic of Stealth Bleed. ;P

Oh, and Mata Hari wallpapered Josh Duffin.....


--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

jnewquist@difsol.com wrote:

>Bay and Howl often trumps Tributes in a !Gangrel deck

Meh. I mean, like, Bay nad Howl can certainly be useful, but it has a high
opportunity cost--you need to have an all !Gan crypt for it to be useful,
and you need to have a lot of weenie vampires which is difficult with an all
!Gan crypt for it to be useful, and you need to have a vampire in your
uncontrolled reigon and transfers for it to become pool. Like in the most
base situation, I have 4 vampires in play and a Tribute, I gain 4 pool. I
have 4 !Gan in play and I play Bay and Howl, I don't gain anything, unless I
already spent some pool or something pulling out a new vampire. And if I
did, I only can get 2 pool due to trasfer rules. Yeah, the transfers are
good and all, but when you really need them (i.e. early) is when the card is
least effective (I have 1 !Gan in play, I can Bay and Howl for 1 pool and 1
free transfer--worth it?). Again, not saying Bay and Howl is bad, but not so
much seeing it wallpapering Tribute, even in the appropriate deck.

>Powerbase:LA trumps The Barrens [and maybe Metro Underground] in anarch decks

And again, not necessarily--Barens you can use immediately, LA works at the
end of the turn; LA can be stolen; LA only untaps Anarchs and only if you
have the right card in hand. Useful, sure, but not so much with the
wallpapering.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil

 

[Michael]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Anima Gathering, from KMW, pretty much wallpapers Psychic (or
Physchic) Projection, I think.

 

[DEMON]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

though I agree that anima gathering is better, I think psychic
projection still has it's place.

1) you can't do anima gathering on the same vampire (and then wake to
block)

2) you can't do anima gathering and then freak drive (it burns)

3) the superior PP gives multiple minions +1 intercept

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:
> jnewquist@difsol.com wrote:
>
> >Bay and Howl often trumps Tributes in a !Gangrel deck
>
> Meh. I mean, like, Bay nad Howl can certainly be useful, but it has a high
> opportunity cost--you need to have an all !Gan crypt for it to be useful,
> and you need to have a lot of weenie vampires which is difficult with an all
> !Gan crypt for it to be useful, and you need to have a vampire in your
> uncontrolled reigon and transfers for it to become pool. Like in the most
> base situation, I have 4 vampires in play and a Tribute, I gain 4 pool. I
> have 4 !Gan in play and I play Bay and Howl, I don't gain anything, unless I
> already spent some pool or something pulling out a new vampire. And if I
> did, I only can get 2 pool due to trasfer rules. Yeah, the transfers are
> good and all, but when you really need them (i.e. early) is when the card is
> least effective (I have 1 !Gan in play, I can Bay and Howl for 1 pool and 1
> free transfer--worth it?). Again, not saying Bay and Howl is bad, but not so
> much seeing it wallpapering Tribute, even in the appropriate deck.

Er... okay. But in the !Gangrel deck where Tribute makes sense, Bay and
Howl often makes more sense. Note the words "often trumps" after the
words "no major wallpaperizations".

> >Powerbase:LA trumps The Barrens [and maybe Metro Underground] in anarch decks
>
> And again, not necessarily--Barens you can use immediately, LA works at the
> end of the turn; LA can be stolen; LA only untaps Anarchs and only if you
> have the right card in hand. Useful, sure, but not so much with the
> wallpapering.
>

Again, I didn't say it was wallpapered. I said it "often trumped" the
Barrens.

Both of these were intended to be examples of how things that could
have been wallpaperizations *weren't* (but nevertheless made quite
useful cards that duplicate and expand existing effects).

John

 

[mummy]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Now, Delaying Tactics is still a fantastic card. But there's been a
> slight move in a number of players away from it because they don't like
> just delaying PTO one turn, and some consideration of new cards, like
> Vox Domini/Vox Senis, Confusion of the Eye etc. which provide
> interesting and different cards.

Actually, I did think about Delaying Tactics/Vox Domini. In that case,
where I used to use x Delaying Tactics in a deck that didn't have a
solid anti-vote defense, now I would use x-1 Delaying Tactics and 1 Vox
Domini (haven't gotten around to experimenting with Confusion of the
Eye yet).

The other card that came to mind was Perfectionist. Every one I own is
in a deck now, and if I owned more, I'd play more. On the other hand,
I can't think of a card slot that was systematically replaced with
Perfectionist. It kind of makes its own niche, rather than
outcompeting another card at an extant niche.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"mummy" <mummydirtyslut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118967671.836654.163050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Now, Delaying Tactics is still a fantastic card. But there's been a
>> slight move in a number of players away from it because they don't like
>> just delaying PTO one turn, and some consideration of new cards, like
>> Vox Domini/Vox Senis, Confusion of the Eye etc. which provide
>> interesting and different cards.
>
> Actually, I did think about Delaying Tactics/Vox Domini. In that case,
> where I used to use x Delaying Tactics in a deck that didn't have a
> solid anti-vote defense, now I would use x-1 Delaying Tactics and 1 Vox
> Domini (haven't gotten around to experimenting with Confusion of the
> Eye yet).

Last year, that is what I'd do with a deck that had any Delaying Tactics
in it - for me, that's basically when I was adjusting a net deck to my
tastes but wasn't feeling quite bold enough to just dump the DTs
altogether.

Other decks that had little or no voting power, I was starting to just
add one Vox Domini if I had any master card space left at all or could
get rid of a marginal master card.

Ever since Kindred Restructure and Dramatic Upheavels were banned, the
Vox Dominis have slowly started to disappear. Those were the two votes
that tended to be biggest game losers for the voteless deck so without
them, a voteless deck can be a lot bolder about just taking a "screw
it" attitude. The exception for me were weeny decks that feared and
loathed Domain Challenge, Autrakis Empowerments, and such. But for
those kinds of decks, I've warmed up to dropping in a couple of Direct
Interventions which also cover Aranthebes the Immortal and and cards
that are just game changing event cards like Mr. Cherryholmes tells me
I should watch for.

Fred

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <1118862702.811024.261760@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mummy <mummydirtyslut@hotmail.com> writes:
>Then again, I haven't been playing as much this year, so I turn to the
>Internet, which is Always Right. In your opinion, Internet, have any
>pre-BH cards become nerfed due to a kewler, more roxxor card in a
>subsequent set?

In the "not anything like nerfed, but it's interesting to see more
alternatives being played" camp, there's Delaying Tactics.

Now, Delaying Tactics is still a fantastic card. But there's been a
slight move in a number of players away from it because they don't like
just delaying PTO one turn, and some consideration of new cards, like
Vox Domini/Vox Senis, Confusion of the Eye etc. which provide
interesting and different cards.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"James Coupe" <james@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:u1SI7vbNndsCFwkO@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> Now, Delaying Tactics is still a fantastic card.

Meh. I guess that's why I use in virtually none of
my decks and almost never miss it.

Fred

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

mummy wrote:

> Actually, I did think about Delaying Tactics/Vox Domini. In that case,
> where I used to use x Delaying Tactics in a deck that didn't have a
> solid anti-vote defense, now I would use x-1 Delaying Tactics and 1 Vox
> Domini (haven't gotten around to experimenting with Confusion of the
> Eye yet).

Yeah, that seems reasonable, but still, the costs of Vox Domini are
significant such that I don't think repacing a DT with a VD is *that*
automatic--it costs a pool and an MPA, which isn't insignificant.

> The other card that came to mind was Perfectionist. Every one I own is
> in a deck now, and if I owned more, I'd play more. On the other hand,
> I can't think of a card slot that was systematically replaced with
> Perfectionist. It kind of makes its own niche, rather than
> outcompeting another card at an extant niche.

I mean, like, Perfectionist did kind of wallpaper all the other Archetypes,
but that is 'cause all the other Archetypes are pretty underpowered. But
yeah, it does fit in as many decks as, like, Blood Doll or Wake.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

In message <j5mse.1929$wV5.218@fed1read06>, Frederick Scott
<nospam@no.spam.dot.com> writes:
>"James Coupe" <james@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
>news:u1SI7vbNndsCFwkO@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
>> Now, Delaying Tactics is still a fantastic card.
>
>Meh. I guess that's why I use in virtually none of
>my decks and almost never miss it.

"Fantastic card" != "must include in every deck".

Protect Thine Own is also a fantastic card, for instance.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:28:03 +0100, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
wrote:

> In message <j5mse.1929$wV5.218@fed1read06>, Frederick Scott
> <nospam@no.spam.dot.com> writes:
>> "James Coupe" <james@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
>> news:u1SI7vbNndsCFwkO@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
>>> Now, Delaying Tactics is still a fantastic card.
>>
>> Meh. I guess that's why I use in virtually none of
>> my decks and almost never miss it.
>
> "Fantastic card" != "must include in every deck".
>
> Protect Thine Own is also a fantastic card, for instance.

Even a little more than that, depending on who you ask.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:01:17 -0400, Peter D Bakija <pdb6@lightlink.com>
wrote:

> mummy wrote:
>
>> Actually, I did think about Delaying Tactics/Vox Domini. In that case,
>> where I used to use x Delaying Tactics in a deck that didn't have a
>> solid anti-vote defense, now I would use x-1 Delaying Tactics and 1 Vox
>> Domini (haven't gotten around to experimenting with Confusion of the
>> Eye yet).
>
> Yeah, that seems reasonable, but still, the costs of Vox Domini are
> significant such that I don't think repacing a DT with a VD is *that*
> automatic--it costs a pool and an MPA, which isn't insignificant.

I'm all out for Vox Domini. I think that it is better than Delaying Tactics
in a lot of decks (even though you only include 1 VD in most decks because
of its limitation). Even though the Pool cost is more significant than the
Blood cost, and an MPA is quite precious in most decks, you don't need any
vampires who can react to play it. Most active decks can't afford to leave
a vampire standing 'just in case', and since Approximation of Loyalty came
out, using a weenie to Delay has its shortcomings. Also, against a bleeder
/voter deck Delaying just switches one form of pool damage to another; Vox
shuts down the minion for good, which can in cases be worth the pool
alone.
(Kind of like an OOT Misdirection that only works on voters...)

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[mummy]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> I'm all out for Vox Domini. I think that it is better than Delaying Tactics
> in a lot of decks (even though you only include 1 VD in most decks because
> of its limitation). Even though the Pool cost is more significant than the
> Blood cost, and an MPA is quite precious in most decks, you don't need any
> vampires who can react to play it. Most active decks can't afford to leave
> a vampire standing 'just in case', and since Approximation of Loyalty came
> out, using a weenie to Delay has its shortcomings. Also, against a bleeder
> /voter deck Delaying just switches one form of pool damage to another; Vox
> shuts down the minion for good, which can in cases be worth the pool
> alone.

I'm in agreement about VD here. Question for you, thoug: do you really
find Approximation of Loyalty being used to pre-empt weenie Delayers?
Crazy! I kind of gave up on Approximation of Loyalty, due to not being
able to rely on it for pre-empting larger capacity blockers.

Heck, even the "dirty old man" factor of AoL went obsolete when True
Love's Face came out

-Jon

> (Kind of like an OOT Misdirection that only works on voters...)
>
> --
> Bye,
>
> Daneel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 17 Jun 2005 10:31:30 -0700, mummy <mummydirtyslut@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm in agreement about VD here. Question for you, thoug: do you really
> find Approximation of Loyalty being used to pre-empt weenie Delayers?
> Crazy! I kind of gave up on Approximation of Loyalty, due to not being
> able to rely on it for pre-empting larger capacity blockers.

Approximation cycles well. Might be a metagame thingy, but most midcap-
fatty Presence decks I see use a few copies for this purpose.

> Heck, even the "dirty old man" factor of AoL went obsolete when True
> Love's Face came out

Well, if you don't have OBF...

Anyway, AoL isn't such a bad card. I had the best use for it in a classic
G1 Law Firm deck.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

David Cherryholmes wrote:
> ...the
> !Gangrel seem to me to be better suited than the average clan to use
> *all* their weenies, and not pay so much attention to whether they have
> the disciplines you are using. Talons of the Dead is pretty huge.
> Granted, the burn a blood thing can hit nerds hard, but Hungry Coyote is
> probably in your deck anyway, and helps. Gangrel Conspiracy makes
> having nerds sitting around waiting to diablerize even more attractive
> (especially nerds who themselves poke for one agg and might amaranth
> you). And now there's [Bay and Howl]

Don't forget Leathery Hide, disciplineless prevent 4 non-agg from a
strike for the !Gan. It mixes oh-so-well with Embrace, Hungry Coyote
and Bay and Howl.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Peter D Bakija wrote:

> Meh. I mean, like, Bay nad Howl can certainly be useful, but it has a high
> opportunity cost--you need to have an all !Gan crypt for it to be useful,
> and you need to have a lot of weenie vampires which is difficult with an all
> !Gan crypt for it to be useful, and you need to have a vampire in your
> uncontrolled reigon and transfers for it to become pool.

This isn't to say that I disagree with your overall point, but the
!Gangrel seem to me to be better suited than the average clan to use
*all* their weenies, and not pay so much attention to whether they have
the disciplines you are using. Talons of the Dead is pretty huge.
Granted, the burn a blood thing can hit nerds hard, but Hungry Coyote is
probably in your deck anyway, and helps. Gangrel Conspiracy makes
having nerds sitting around waiting to diablerize even more attractive
(especially nerds who themselves poke for one agg and might amaranth
you). And now there's this card. And I've heard (mostly from this one
loon on the internet) that fielding a weenie crypt comes with all kinds
of advantages of its own. So, it looks possible to me, at least in
theory, to build a pretty good, pretty weenified, all !Gangrel deck.

Incidently, the game is ripe and ready for a new weenie hoser on the
order of Aranthebes.

--

David Cherryholmes

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

> Meh. I guess that's why I use in virtually none of
> my decks and almost never miss it.

Ever play a weenie deck and get killed by votes? I think it belongs in
almost every single weenie deck (breed/ally decks included), especially
since they usually have card slots to burn.

--

David Cherryholmes

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"David Cherryholmes" <david.cherryholmes@gmail.com> wrote in message news:11b8prppa8tbsb9@corp.supernews.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>
>> Meh. I guess that's why I use in virtually none of
>> my decks and almost never miss it.
>
> Ever play a weenie deck and get killed by votes?

Actually, not very often. And if I were getting killed by votes
while playing a weeny deck, then number of Delaying Tactics I'd
need to put in the deck to save myself would dilute it so much
it wouldn't win much at other times.

You can't cover everything. And for me, votes are a slam
dunk thing to ignore when playing weenies.

> I think it belongs in
> almost every single weenie deck (breed/ally decks included), especially
> since they usually have card slots to burn.

You're kidding. They do not have "card slots to burn".

Fred

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Frederick Scott wrote:

> Ever since Kindred Restructure and Dramatic Upheavels were banned, the
> Vox Dominis have slowly started to disappear. Those were the two votes
> that tended to be biggest game losers for the voteless deck so without
> them, a voteless deck can be a lot bolder about just taking a "screw
> it" attitude. The exception for me were weeny decks that feared and
> loathed Domain Challenge, Autrakis Empowerments, and such. But for
> those kinds of decks, I've warmed up to dropping in a couple of Direct
> Interventions which also cover Aranthebes the Immortal and and cards
> that are just game changing event cards like Mr. Cherryholmes tells me
> I should watch for.

Aw Fred, I'm touched! Disregard my reply to you in the other branch of
this thread, btw.

--

David Cherryholmes

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

David Cherryholmes wrote:

> This isn't to say that I disagree with your overall point, but the
> !Gangrel seem to me to be better suited than the average clan to use
> *all* their weenies, and not pay so much attention to whether they have
> the disciplines you are using.

That is a very reasonable point. You could probably make a pretty solid G2-3
weenie !Gangrel deck revolving around Talons of the Dead, Leathery Hide,
Gangrel Conspiracy, and generic protean combat support, all fueled by Bay
and Howl. Heh. That might be good...


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil