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Barbed Wire Project- !Venture

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Anonymous
June 16, 2005 7:44:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Special Thanks to David Vega for submitting this deck for the Barbed
Wire Project:
Greetings,

"I would like to submit this Ventrue Antitribu Deck that I built. It
originally had 3 rare cards in there which, although nice, are not
desperately required.

The concept with this deck is to learn to be patient and then lunge for
the kill.

It has made every final it has been played in, with high VPs, however
becomes targetted due to its success during the final.


Deck Name: Ventrue Antitribu Denial
Created By: David V Vega
Description: The Ventrue Anti are Anti-Everything

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 38, Avg: 7.5)
---------------------------------------------
1 Billy dom for AUS 5 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Blackhorse Tanner AUS DOM FOR 7 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Charice Fontaigne for pot AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Ingrid Russo for DOM 4 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Marlene dem for tha AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Owain Evans cel pre AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Jesse Menks ani AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Lazverinus pro AUS DOM FOR POT 10 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Quentin cel obt AUS DOM FOR 9 Ventrue
Antitribu

Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (14 cards)
5 Blood Doll
1 Corporate Hunting Ground
1 Demonstration
7 Sudden Reversal

Action (17 cards)
6 Govern the Unaligned
6 Scouting Mission
4 Pulse of the Canaille
1 Revelations

Action Modifier (6 cards)
2 Kiss of Ra, The
4 Seduction

Reaction (35 cards)
4 Deflection
4 Redirection
4 Telepathic Counter
4 Telepathic Misdirection
8 Wake with Evening`s Freshness
4 Obedience
4 Delaying Tactics
3 Irregular Protocol

Combat (18 cards)
4 Skin of Steel
5 Skin of Rock
4 Soak
5 Superior Mettle"

As you probably already know, the Barbed Wire Project's goal is to make
decks that are so cheap that you can give them away without a second
thought and so powerful that they can compete on a more or less even
playing field with other decks people bring to play. The !Ventrue are
not an ideal choice for this project as all the cards will just be
inherently more expensive than good old Jyhad cards. Knowing that the
end result would just not be as cheap as a Jyhad based deck, I still
did my best to make it as cheap as possible, I started by pairing it
down to 60 cards and taking out the Pulse of the Canaille, 5 of the
WWEF, 5 of the Sudden Reversals, the Revelations, and the Kiss of Ras.
Of the remaining cards, I took out the following because I just didn't
feel they belonged: Hunting Ground, 3 Blood Dolls, 4 Delaying Tactics,
and 3 Irregular Protocols.

Here's my version of BWP: !Ventrue. Feel free to comment.

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 38, Avg: 7.5)
---------------------------------------------
1 Billy dom for AUS 5 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Blackhorse Tanner AUS DOM FOR 7 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Charice Fontaigne for pot AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Ingrid Russo for DOM 4 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Marlene dem for tha AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Owain Evans cel pre AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Jesse Menks ani AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Lazverinus pro AUS DOM FOR POT 10 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Quentin cel obt AUS DOM FOR 9 Ventrue
Antitribu

Master 12
Demonstration
2 Blood Dolls
2 Sudden Reversals
2 Minion Taps
Information Highway
Police Station
3xMisdirection

Action 12
5xGovern the Unaligned
5xScounting Mission
2xRestoration

Action Modifier 7
2xSeduction
2xBonding
3xConditioning/Threats

Reaction 19
5xDeflection
2xRedirection
4xObedience
3xWake with Evening's Freshness
5xLoyalist

Combat 10
2xZip Gun
2xSkin of Steel
2xSoak
2xHidden Strength
2xUnflinching Persistence
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 4:31:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hey Alex,

Thanks for responding. I have never played the !Ventrue much myself. I
am going to test my version of this deck this weekend and let you know.
First off, let me comment on

"You lost me here. What is it about the !Ventrue that you think makes
them 'more expensive'? The crypt and in-clan cards? Their in-clan
disciplines are all Jyhad (base set) disciplines - they should be just
as 'cheap' as any clan to make decks for, as far as I can tell. "

You can by a box of Jyhad for $37 shipping included- thats 36 packs at
19 cards a pack. A box of Sabbat war is roughly $70 plus shipping and
that's 36 packs of 11 cards I believe. The Jyhad cards are, on average,
half as expensive.

"David's deck heavily relies on the Pulses - why take them out? Yeah,
they're uncommon, but, man, anyone who's been playing for long has
truckloads too many of them. He also is clearly counting on using a
lot of reactions to make up for the relatively large crypt - throwing
out wakes is going to really change the deck, though I understand why
you might not want to give away all of your WWEF. The Suddens also
look to be pretty important to David's concept (I presume for hosing
his prey's pool gain) - you can't just chuck them and stay true to his
concept. The single Revelations is pretty easily ditched, but the Kiss

of Ra isn't, at least not without replacing it with some sort of 'don't

block me' threat card. "

Maybe I am missing something, but, if you have dominate, why on earth
would you play pulse? Conditioning gives the same bleed bonus at basic
for one less blood, no action to put it in play, and it can be played
on any vampire that successfully bleeds. Sure, if goes away after you
play it, but you can always draw another one. Pulse seems weak to me,
and, its more expensive monetarily so it was an easy choice. I also
fail to see how Sudden Reversal is really important to anyone's concept
because the card itself doesn't actually do anything to advance your
concept. It is a timing dependant answer to someone else's concept. As
such, it is a stop gap measure at best to try to prevent a multitude of
problems. By reducing the number to 2, you are still able to play it
occasionally, but not as aggressively as the original deck. For me, I
don't see that as a huge loss. If the deck absolutely has to have 5+
Sudden's then it just isn't going to work as a deck that one can give
away.

As for the Kiss of Ra- hey, it's a great card. It's also a pricey card.
Don't know about you, but I am not giving those away. So, yes, the deck
loses it's blocking deterant, other than Laz's hand damage. However,
the deck he described, and the deck I angled to build was more wallish
and opportunistic than threatening someone not to block. As such, it
tries to wait for it's opportunity. The Misdirections I added should
help that a bit. Typically if one doesn't go forward and instead waits,
then your prey will tend to go forward and leave one guy to deal with
you- the Misdirection helps to tap him out. The Conditioning helps so
that your prey won't know which he needs to block with the WWEF.

"Dude! The Hunting Ground and Blood Dolls don't belong?!? What are
you
smokin'?
The vote denial package does seem oversized, though - I presume David's

meta has distressing amounts of PTO."

Just between you, me and the group, I have 6 decks built that I play.
They contain a collective 2 blood dolls, and zero hunting grounds.
Myself I do not favor those cards. If that makes me a bad player in
some people's eyes, then I guess I will have to live with the label.
And, just so you know, I don't smoke.

That being said, this deck retains 2 blood dolls and 2 minion taps. In
60 cards, that should be enough.

"Police Department?!? You'll be dead long before you can press out.
Misdirection? (One Misdirection maybe, but three?!?) Sure, the Minion

Taps could be pretty good substitutes for Blood Dolls with the high
average capacity, but how are you going to refill with only two
Restores? I'd put the Blood Dolls and HG back."

2 Minion Taps, 2 Restores. We'll see how it does in play testing.
Again, I don't favor Hunting Grounds and Blood Dolls. As for Police
Department, this deck has no S: CE. As such, with no presses to end
combat, a single Trap will ruin it's day. IMHO, it needs some defense
against that, hence the Hidden Strengths.

"Without the Pulses, it just isn't the same deck. Your Restores will
be
blocked, if they seem at all important. Your Governs/Scouts will be
bounced if used on offense and blocked if used for pool gain - you just

can't generate that many 'important' actions. That's why the Pulses
are so important - they make every bleed potentially deadly"

The Restores will be blocked, but the Pulses won't? I have to disagree
with you about the Pulses. They don't make every bleed potentially
deadly- that's what conditioning does. This is why I put in
conditioning.

"Here I agree with the diversification. Even more would not hurt.
Here's a chance to get rid of some Sleeping Mind. Stick in some
Crocodile Tongue. And would it hurt so much to put a Kiss back in?"

Crocodile's Tongue would be a good card. Myself I don't have any
extras. If it turns out to be THAT important, I could look at modifying
the decklist to add that in. If the deck just doen't play without Kiss
in a reasonable manner then I would simply say this deck is not a BWP
candidate.

"With only 3 Wakes, you're going to be looking at a hand full of blue
(OK, it's not blue anymore) while completely tapped out far too often.
I'm surprised you left in all that Obedience. Why did all the Auspex
reactions go?"

The deck is a wall deck. As such, by removing cards that tap minions to
react (such as Telepathic Misdirection, Delaying Tactics, and
Irreguilar Protocol) and favored cards that do not tap (such as
Loyalist, and Deflection). As for the Telepathic Counter, I may put
those back in. But, with 6 bleed redirection cards, I think the decks
bleed defense is OK. Will have to see in play testing.

In regards to the combat package, "This is a completely different, and
probably insufficient, approach to combat than David took. This deck
is going to be almost completely
defenseless, which is bad when you can't muster any real stealth or
bruise. After you take out all the Pulses, you probably don't need as
much prevent, but this is way, way too little combat for a deck that
can end up in combat every time anyone generates +1 intercept. "

I don't see it at all as completely different. They are fairly similar
to the original. The original had 18 combat cards out of 90 (20%)
dedicated entirely to preventing combat damage. The next deck has 8 out
of 60 dedicated to combat prevent and 2 Zip Guns- that's 13% combat
cards. A definite reduction, but it made room for more bleed cards. The
new selection of combat cards allows for manuevering away from
troublesome situations and presses to end combat. Is it less, yea, but
it allowed for the threat portion to be expanded. I may go back and
refigure the precentages based on actual play.

"All in all, it looks like a practically random selection of cards,
with
no real plan for getting anything accomplished. It's not going to play

at all like the original.

Given that you don't seem wedded to David's design, I think I'd aim
much more directly at a standard !Ventrue toolbox, which should be
pretty easily doable within the stated aims of your Barbed Wire
concept. If you're interested in doing that, here's the title of one
of the more recent threads that could help:

[Deck] Ventrue - Antitribu: How do these guys win games???

Heck, it even has my standard !Ventrue toolbox in it."

I'll take a look at it.

"I'm sorry my language has been kind of harsh in places in this post.
It's just not the same with out my eyes goggling out and me sputtering
comically. I expect that you mean well with Barbed Wire; I hope that
you can see that I mean well too underneath all the criticism."

Eh, I'm pretty thick skinned. I do have to say though that I feel no
choices were "comical". I feel a lot of criticism has been leveled
unfairly at my efforts in the BWP whenever I try to find a substitute
or work around for a popular set of cards for a given clan. I don't
mind the criticism, but I have gotten results that I find acceptable
with a card selection that other people have never used before. For me,
that's the whole fun of the project.
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 6:04:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Dear Daneel,

Sorry for the confusion. I was more just "showing my work" in terms of
the old math problems where you start some place and end someplace
else. If I implied one deck was more or less another deck, then I
apologize.

Cheers,
Preston
Related resources
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 2:51:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On 17 Jun 2005 12:31:42 -0700, Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Alex,
>
> Thanks for responding. I have never played the !Ventrue much myself.

With all due respect, some of your replies are more understandable in the
context of this remark.

Also, I think that even changing a handful of cards can really alter a
deck concept. You've made changes that failed to preserve the original
concept. It's not a problem, but quoting a different deck as the source
serves no purpose whatsoever. Not that there would be anything wrong
with saying "OK, I built this from scratch, while occasionally glancing
at this other deck". It just confuses people when you "okay, these are
basically the same decks" and point at two rather different decks.

--
Bye,

Daneel
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 1:45:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Ok. Played this deck today. My predator was playing S&B, prey as
playing an Enkidu Raptor deck. No one was playing with any votes so all
my Loyalists were wasted. I went first. On turn 3 I brought up Quentin.
Next turn I Minion tapped him for 6, scouting missioned down, and
brought out Marlene, the non-infernal infernalist. She Deflected a
stealth bleed to my prey which chewed up his one Forced Awakening. On
my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but
it seemed like the opportunity was right. My prey was down to 4 pool or
so. He brought Enkidu back to rush Marlene who had skin of steel to
stop his 3 hand damage.

My predator refrained from bleeding much over the next couple of turns
either beacause she didn't have the cards or was concerned about being
deflected. Over the next 2-3 turns I brought out Black Horse Tanner and
managed to bleed my prey out- yea 1 VP for me.

My next prey was also playing a rush deck and about that time I was out
of fortitude cards. He promply torpored all my guys and I soon died.

So, in tuning the deck a bit, I am thinking of taking out 1 Scouting
Mission, 1 Govern, 3 Loyalist, and adding 2 Skin of Steel, 2 Soaks, and
1 Rapid Healing.

I will keep messing with it.
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 12:52:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Yea, I bleed for 11 because Quentin bleed for 5 (Scounting
Mission+Conditioning) and Marlene bleed for 6 (Govern + Conditioning).
My prey's Enkidu had a Raptor, so he could stop the stealth bleed, and
he played a S: Dodge in the resulting combat. I guess he figured that
he might draw another Forced Awakening, but he didn't.

Anyway, at this point with the BWP, I only have 3 Cam clans left. I
will be posting the Brujah in a couple of days and they seem to be
working just fine. The Malkavians obviously will be fairly competitive
and straight forward. That only leaves the Ventrue. and it seems to be
that they have more powerful tools available in the commons/uncommons
toolbox to work with: Majesty, Bewitching Oration- Voter Cap, Parity
Shift and strong 7-8 cap titled vamps.

I am willing to stretch to include some uncommons when necessary (such
as voter capitativation) but I first try to see if there's a way to do
it with commons only. I want each uncommon included to be there because
there just wasn't an acceptable substitute. I haven't tried the 4 Pulse
version, but I just don't see that it is really gaining me much by the
inclusion of the 4 uncommons over the use of common bleed modifiers.

Unfortunately, the !Ventrue don't seem to have that good a toolbox
available at the common level. Fortitude is their only combat
discipline and damage prevention only goes so far. If one is not
concerned about commonality, then Kiss of Ra, Freak Drive, Dawn Op, etc
become things that allow for you to make up for their lack of stealth
and combat, but you are no longer talking about a cheap and efficient
deck. It may just be that the !Ventrue don't play all that well at the
common/uncommon level, and I am prepared to scrap BWP: !Ventrue unless
it shows more promise.
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 3:05:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Preston wrote:
| Ok. Played this deck today. My predator was playing S&B, prey as
| playing an Enkidu Raptor deck. No one was playing with any votes so all
| my Loyalists were wasted. I went first. On turn 3 I brought up Quentin.
| Next turn I Minion tapped him for 6, scouting missioned down, and
| brought out Marlene, the non-infernal infernalist. She Deflected a
| stealth bleed to my prey which chewed up his one Forced Awakening. On

Newbie mistake on your prey's part. Your grandpredator will never bleed
you for as much as your predator; you need to save your untap to stop
the 0-stealth !Ventrue. If he burned a Wake against a stealthy bleed
that he couldn't block, that's another newbie mistake. If your
grandpredator added stealth to the bleed specifically to keep from being
blocked by your prey, that's a MAJOR newbie mistake.

| my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
| of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
| CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but

Sure you can. Just Minion Tap him for a bit less.

Turn 3, I get Quentin. I Minion Tap him for 4 -- he has 5 blood left.
I get a Pulse, I Freak Drive, I Scout to Marlene. Quentin on 1 blood,
Marlene Deflects on my predator's turn.

Turn 4, Quentin Restores at superior, Freak Drives, and Govern bleeds
with Conditioning for a total of 8 pool in a single bleed. Quentin
still at 1 blood and bleeding for 3 every turn from here out.

I don't know where you're getting "11 pool" from. Since Govern +
Condition add up to 6, I can only assume that you're including both
Marlene's bleed that turn AND the Deflection from Marlene in the
previous turn.

The best part? Pulsed minions get to bleed for 3 even when you don't
top-deck all your bleed modifiers. So you can include fewer bleed
modifiers, and more Fortitude cards to help you deal with people coming
to kick your minions' asses.

Pulse is expensive, of course, and tends to paint a target on your
vampire's head. But in a deck designed to compensate for the cost, it
is extremely effective. The !Ventrue can compensate for Pulse's cost
better than most; dismissing it out of hand is careless.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
June 20, 2005 4:01:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

If you're unwilling to use Freak Drive, the players of !Ventrue decks
are going to encounter frustration and only marginal success. !Ventrue
actions will be blocked. Unless you can generate more actions through
allies or weenies, you'll lose the action/turn battle that marks the
turn-by-turn struggle of the typical game.

Given the limitations of your project, the !Ventrue may be a poor
choice of deck archetype. However, you might try the following deck,
geared to perhaps win a battle of attrition through more permanent
bleed, pool, and blood gain. Best of luck!

Deck Name : Barbed Wire Ventrue Anti Deck
Author : cmb
Description :
Made for the BWP. Restricted to commonly available cards and a 60 card
deck.


Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 4 max: 10 average: 6.67
------------------------------------------------------------

2x Peter Blaine 4 aus dom for !Ventrue:2
2x Billy 5 AUS dom for !Ventrue:2
1x Dylan 6 aus cel dom for pro !Ventrue:2
1x Vanessa 6 DOM FOR aus pre !Ventrue:2
1x Blackhorse Tanner 7 AUS DOM FOR !Ventrue:3
1x Jesse Menks 8 AUS DOM FOR ani archbishop !Ventrue:3
2x Owain Evans, The W 8 AUS DOM FOR cel pre !Ventrue:3
1x Quentin 9 AUS DOM FOR cel obt bishop !Ventrue:2
1x Lazverinus, Thrall 10 AUS DOM FOR POT pro archbishop !Ventrue:2


Library [60 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------

Master [11]
1x Antediluvian Awakening
4x Blood Doll
2x Capitalist
1x Corporate Hunting Ground
1x Demonstration
1x Information Highway
1x Sudden Reversal

Action [10]
3x Govern the Unaligned
2x Pulse of the Canaille
3x Rapid Healing
2x Restoration

Action Modifier [7]
3x Bonding
2x Dawn Operation
2x Seduction

Combat [13]
3x Hidden Strength
3x Rolling with the Punches
3x Unflinching Persistence
4x Zip Gun

Reaction [19]
4x Deflection
2x Enhanced Senses
5x Forced Awakening
3x Precognition
2x Spirit's Touch
3x Wake with Evening's Freshness

Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Mon Jun 20 01:48:14 2005]
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 5:06:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Derek Ray" <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7Y2dnTr0Ce8hFCjfRVn-qw@giganews.com...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Preston wrote:

> | my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
> | of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
> | CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but
>
> Sure you can. Just Minion Tap him for a bit less.
>
> Turn 3, I get Quentin. I Minion Tap him for 4 -- he has 5 blood left.
> I get a Pulse, I Freak Drive, I Scout to Marlene. Quentin on 1 blood,
> Marlene Deflects on my predator's turn.
>
> Turn 4, Quentin Restores at superior, Freak Drives, and Govern bleeds
> with Conditioning for a total of 8 pool in a single bleed. Quentin
> still at 1 blood and bleeding for 3 every turn from here out.
>
You'd put enough Freak Drive into a deck you intend to give away, such that
you're drawing at least one per turn... Can I have it? ;-)

> I don't know where you're getting "11 pool" from. Since Govern +
> Condition add up to 6, I can only assume that you're including both
> Marlene's bleed that turn AND the Deflection from Marlene in the
> previous turn.
>
Or, Quentin and Marlene both bled, one with Govern/Cond, one with
Scouting/Cond.

> The best part? Pulsed minions get to bleed for 3 even when you don't
> top-deck all your bleed modifiers. So you can include fewer bleed
> modifiers, and more Fortitude cards to help you deal with people coming
> to kick your minions' asses.
>
> Pulse is expensive, of course, and tends to paint a target on your
> vampire's head. But in a deck designed to compensate for the cost, it
> is extremely effective. The !Ventrue can compensate for Pulse's cost
> better than most; dismissing it out of hand is careless.
>
Yeah, true for the game as a whole, but its also the reason why I'd keep
them (Pulse) out of a Barbed Wire deck. They offer less control of the
bleed amount.(which is typically a bad idea to put in the hands of a newbie
player) Without a Short Leash concept, you're just begging to be bounced
from the point where the action is announced... Newman B. Player may not be
as resourceful at (or even understand exactly why he should) controlling
bleed amounts which fall off-prey. You mentioned how your Grandpred will
never bleed for more than your Pred... That truth becomes less true with
Pulses in the Grandpred's deck.

Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 12:22:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Cmb,

I'll give your version a try.

Thanks,
Preston
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 12:52:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hey Guys,

I am abandoning the BWP: !Ventrue deck.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 12:54:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Zopf wrote:
| "Derek Ray" <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:7Y2dnTr0Ce8hFCjfRVn-qw@giganews.com...
|
|>Preston wrote:
|
|>| my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
|>| of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
|>| CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but
|>
|>Sure you can. Just Minion Tap him for a bit less.
|
| You'd put enough Freak Drive into a deck you intend to give away, such
that
| you're drawing at least one per turn... Can I have it? ;-)

No bets about how many are in there -- but given the amount of Scouting
Mission, Govern, and Conditioning in Preston's original deck, I deem it
equally as likely that I'll topdeck 2 Freak Drives as it is that he'll
draw as many of the three above as he did in his example. Normally I
just call shenanigans on stories like that, but the only intent was to
point out that Pulse most certainly DOES allow you to bleed for lots, in
direct contradiction to his flat-out denial of same. (see above).

Pulse's requirement is blood-on-the-minion, so if you MT Quentin for 6,
I don't see Pulse being a good plan in your future. But you can
definitely get people kitted up nicely.

|>I don't know where you're getting "11 pool" from. Since Govern +
|>Condition add up to 6, I can only assume that you're including both
|>Marlene's bleed that turn AND the Deflection from Marlene in the
|>previous turn.
|
| Or, Quentin and Marlene both bled, one with Govern/Cond, one with
| Scouting/Cond.

As above: stupid prey syndrome combined with massive topdeck of bleed
cards.

Any idiot can bleed for 11. The trick is getting the bleed for 11
through without it getting blocked or Deflected... while your prey is
actually trying to survive.

|>The best part? Pulsed minions get to bleed for 3 even when you don't
|>top-deck all your bleed modifiers. So you can include fewer bleed
|>modifiers, and more Fortitude cards to help you deal with people coming
|>to kick your minions' asses.
|>
|>Pulse is expensive, of course, and tends to paint a target on your
|>vampire's head. But in a deck designed to compensate for the cost, it
|>is extremely effective. The !Ventrue can compensate for Pulse's cost
|>better than most; dismissing it out of hand is careless.
|
| Yeah, true for the game as a whole, but its also the reason why I'd keep
| them (Pulse) out of a Barbed Wire deck. They offer less control of the
| bleed amount.(which is typically a bad idea to put in the hands of a
newbie

Exactly the reason you don't Pulse all your minions.

I think as far as newbies are concerned, I'd be a lot more inclined to
give them something that has permanents, and then let them use the
transients in their hand to figure out how to get the permanents
through, you know? The newbie has to learn that "big bleeds get
Deflected" sometime... it might as well be earlier rather than later.

| player) Without a Short Leash concept, you're just begging to be bounced
| from the point where the action is announced... Newman B. Player may
not be
| as resourceful at (or even understand exactly why he should) controlling

Well, at a 0 stealth bleed (!Ventrue are good at this), it's pretty easy
to see what happens. Deflection don't go away. It sits in the player's
hand until used -- you might as well give them the potential to manage.
~ Adding some Bonding makes it a little trickier, but again, you gotta
learn sometime.

| bleed amounts which fall off-prey. You mentioned how your Grandpred will
| never bleed for more than your Pred... That truth becomes less true with
| Pulses in the Grandpred's deck.

Sure, but nobody Deflects until after the Conditioning drops anyway,
making the actual AMOUNT a moot point. The difference is that your
grand-predator is not going to add stealth and/or beat up your minion
just for blocking.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:02:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Preston wrote:
> Unfortunately, the !Ventrue don't seem to have that good a toolbox
> available at the common level.

My further suggestion for all the Barbed Wire decks is not to hamstring
yourself by *only* using commons. I think it is more than acceptable
and feasible to include 4-6 Uncommons in *EVERY* deck. IMO, the
Uncommons provide much of the true power in VTES lies, and that is one
of the game's strengths--they're not hard to come by so with a very
little bit of trading, you can get what you need.

Good Uncommons for !Ventrue:

AUSPEX
Eagle's Sight
Pulse of the Canaille
Revelations

DOMINATE
Graverobbing
Obedience

FORTITUDE
Freak Drive
The Kiss of Ra

VENTRUE ANTITRIBU
Corporate Hunting Ground
Ventrue Investment

You don't have to use all of the above cards (everyone knows how
valuable Freak Drives are), but if you put in 2x Pulse, 1x Revelations,
1x Corporate HG and 1x Ventrue Investment, you'd succeed on two fronts:

1) You'd have a much stronger deck without going overboard by making it
hard to acquire;
2) You'd provide more flavor for what the clan can actually do.

Limiting yourself to commons is an admirable goal, but I think that
bending just a tiny bit for uncommons will make your decks that much
stronger without making them unattainable for new players (or yourself
to provide them to newbs).

Jeff
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:05:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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Preston wrote:
| Yea, I bleed for 11 because Quentin bleed for 5 (Scounting
| Mission+Conditioning) and Marlene bleed for 6 (Govern + Conditioning).
| My prey's Enkidu had a Raptor, so he could stop the stealth bleed, and
| he played a S: Dodge in the resulting combat. I guess he figured that
| he might draw another Forced Awakening, but he didn't.

So your prey used his combat monster's only Wake to block his
GRANDPREDATOR's bleed, instead of picking on those nice crunchy DOM
minions behind him? Major mistake. You take the grandpredator's bleed,
use the Wake to beat up Quentin or Marlene, and THEN you see if you draw
another one. Difference? One less predatorial minion, and if you're
lucky, your predator rescues his torporized other guy instead of trying
for a second bleed.

Very, VERY poor play by your prey.

| I am willing to stretch to include some uncommons when necessary (such
| as voter capitativation) but I first try to see if there's a way to do
| it with commons only. I want each uncommon included to be there because
| there just wasn't an acceptable substitute. I haven't tried the 4 Pulse
| version, but I just don't see that it is really gaining me much by the
| inclusion of the 4 uncommons over the use of common bleed modifiers.

Try the 3 Pulse or 2 Pulse version, then. Pulse is an excellent tool
for the !Ventrue. Damage prevention is super-common, with all the
Fortitude mixing well with permanents. They're going to need Fortitude
anyway -- USE IT.

| Unfortunately, the !Ventrue don't seem to have that good a toolbox
| available at the common level. Fortitude is their only combat
| discipline and damage prevention only goes so far. If one is not

Silliness. Damage prevention goes QUITE a long way when you use things
like Skin of Steel, Rolling with the Punches, Superior Mettle, etc.
Back this up with Skin of Rock, Indomitability, and Unflinching
Persistence and you should rarely take damage. Give a couple Flak
Jackets to them so you don't have to spend a card for EVERY hands-for-1
combat, and that should get your guys just about bulletproof.
Restoration to put blood back on them.

The !Ventrue have one of the best common-toolboxes available: DOM, AUS,
and FOR common cards are all excellent, and the disciplines themselves
are superb. The problems come in when you start trying to oust people,
because they don't come with stealth built-in except for Bonding.

| concerned about commonality, then Kiss of Ra, Freak Drive, Dawn Op, etc
| become things that allow for you to make up for their lack of stealth
| and combat, but you are no longer talking about a cheap and efficient

Put a couple .44s in, if you must. Or, Gas-Powered Chainsaw is not the
best card in the world, but the !Ventrue can use it quite efficiently.

| deck. It may just be that the !Ventrue don't play all that well at the
| common/uncommon level, and I am prepared to scrap BWP: !Ventrue unless
| it shows more promise.

The deck you posted was already noticeably better than your Gangrel and
Nosferatu versions, neither of which can stand up to even a half-hearted
stealth bleed deck. Just keep thinking it through, and assume that your
prey will make the BEST move available to him, not the worst, and go
from there.

Lots of commons are out there for your using. Use your head.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Anonymous
June 23, 2005 2:35:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Jeff,

I don't limit myself to commons. As I said in this thread, I stretch to
include them, but:
A. They better do something powerful that the commons don't do
B. The commons better be able to fulfill the core of the strategy. The
uncommons and rares are their to complement, not define.
!