Barbed Wire Project- !Venture

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Special Thanks to David Vega for submitting this deck for the Barbed
Wire Project:
Greetings,

"I would like to submit this Ventrue Antitribu Deck that I built. It
originally had 3 rare cards in there which, although nice, are not
desperately required.

The concept with this deck is to learn to be patient and then lunge for
the kill.

It has made every final it has been played in, with high VPs, however
becomes targetted due to its success during the final.


Deck Name: Ventrue Antitribu Denial
Created By: David V Vega
Description: The Ventrue Anti are Anti-Everything

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 38, Avg: 7.5)
---------------------------------------------
1 Billy dom for AUS 5 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Blackhorse Tanner AUS DOM FOR 7 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Charice Fontaigne for pot AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Ingrid Russo for DOM 4 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Marlene dem for tha AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Owain Evans cel pre AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Jesse Menks ani AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Lazverinus pro AUS DOM FOR POT 10 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Quentin cel obt AUS DOM FOR 9 Ventrue
Antitribu

Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (14 cards)
5 Blood Doll
1 Corporate Hunting Ground
1 Demonstration
7 Sudden Reversal

Action (17 cards)
6 Govern the Unaligned
6 Scouting Mission
4 Pulse of the Canaille
1 Revelations

Action Modifier (6 cards)
2 Kiss of Ra, The
4 Seduction

Reaction (35 cards)
4 Deflection
4 Redirection
4 Telepathic Counter
4 Telepathic Misdirection
8 Wake with Evening`s Freshness
4 Obedience
4 Delaying Tactics
3 Irregular Protocol

Combat (18 cards)
4 Skin of Steel
5 Skin of Rock
4 Soak
5 Superior Mettle"

As you probably already know, the Barbed Wire Project's goal is to make
decks that are so cheap that you can give them away without a second
thought and so powerful that they can compete on a more or less even
playing field with other decks people bring to play. The !Ventrue are
not an ideal choice for this project as all the cards will just be
inherently more expensive than good old Jyhad cards. Knowing that the
end result would just not be as cheap as a Jyhad based deck, I still
did my best to make it as cheap as possible, I started by pairing it
down to 60 cards and taking out the Pulse of the Canaille, 5 of the
WWEF, 5 of the Sudden Reversals, the Revelations, and the Kiss of Ras.
Of the remaining cards, I took out the following because I just didn't
feel they belonged: Hunting Ground, 3 Blood Dolls, 4 Delaying Tactics,
and 3 Irregular Protocols.

Here's my version of BWP: !Ventrue. Feel free to comment.

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 38, Avg: 7.5)
---------------------------------------------
1 Billy dom for AUS 5 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Blackhorse Tanner AUS DOM FOR 7 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Charice Fontaigne for pot AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Ingrid Russo for DOM 4 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Marlene dem for tha AUS DOM 6 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Owain Evans cel pre AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
1 Jesse Menks ani AUS DOM FOR 8 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Lazverinus pro AUS DOM FOR POT 10 Ventrue
Antitribu
2 Quentin cel obt AUS DOM FOR 9 Ventrue
Antitribu

Master 12
Demonstration
2 Blood Dolls
2 Sudden Reversals
2 Minion Taps
Information Highway
Police Station
3xMisdirection

Action 12
5xGovern the Unaligned
5xScounting Mission
2xRestoration

Action Modifier 7
2xSeduction
2xBonding
3xConditioning/Threats

Reaction 19
5xDeflection
2xRedirection
4xObedience
3xWake with Evening's Freshness
5xLoyalist

Combat 10
2xZip Gun
2xSkin of Steel
2xSoak
2xHidden Strength
2xUnflinching Persistence
14 answers Last reply
More about barbed wire project venture
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Hey Alex,

    Thanks for responding. I have never played the !Ventrue much myself. I
    am going to test my version of this deck this weekend and let you know.
    First off, let me comment on

    "You lost me here. What is it about the !Ventrue that you think makes
    them 'more expensive'? The crypt and in-clan cards? Their in-clan
    disciplines are all Jyhad (base set) disciplines - they should be just
    as 'cheap' as any clan to make decks for, as far as I can tell. "

    You can by a box of Jyhad for $37 shipping included- thats 36 packs at
    19 cards a pack. A box of Sabbat war is roughly $70 plus shipping and
    that's 36 packs of 11 cards I believe. The Jyhad cards are, on average,
    half as expensive.

    "David's deck heavily relies on the Pulses - why take them out? Yeah,
    they're uncommon, but, man, anyone who's been playing for long has
    truckloads too many of them. He also is clearly counting on using a
    lot of reactions to make up for the relatively large crypt - throwing
    out wakes is going to really change the deck, though I understand why
    you might not want to give away all of your WWEF. The Suddens also
    look to be pretty important to David's concept (I presume for hosing
    his prey's pool gain) - you can't just chuck them and stay true to his
    concept. The single Revelations is pretty easily ditched, but the Kiss

    of Ra isn't, at least not without replacing it with some sort of 'don't

    block me' threat card. "

    Maybe I am missing something, but, if you have dominate, why on earth
    would you play pulse? Conditioning gives the same bleed bonus at basic
    for one less blood, no action to put it in play, and it can be played
    on any vampire that successfully bleeds. Sure, if goes away after you
    play it, but you can always draw another one. Pulse seems weak to me,
    and, its more expensive monetarily so it was an easy choice. I also
    fail to see how Sudden Reversal is really important to anyone's concept
    because the card itself doesn't actually do anything to advance your
    concept. It is a timing dependant answer to someone else's concept. As
    such, it is a stop gap measure at best to try to prevent a multitude of
    problems. By reducing the number to 2, you are still able to play it
    occasionally, but not as aggressively as the original deck. For me, I
    don't see that as a huge loss. If the deck absolutely has to have 5+
    Sudden's then it just isn't going to work as a deck that one can give
    away.

    As for the Kiss of Ra- hey, it's a great card. It's also a pricey card.
    Don't know about you, but I am not giving those away. So, yes, the deck
    loses it's blocking deterant, other than Laz's hand damage. However,
    the deck he described, and the deck I angled to build was more wallish
    and opportunistic than threatening someone not to block. As such, it
    tries to wait for it's opportunity. The Misdirections I added should
    help that a bit. Typically if one doesn't go forward and instead waits,
    then your prey will tend to go forward and leave one guy to deal with
    you- the Misdirection helps to tap him out. The Conditioning helps so
    that your prey won't know which he needs to block with the WWEF.

    "Dude! The Hunting Ground and Blood Dolls don't belong?!? What are
    you
    smokin'?
    The vote denial package does seem oversized, though - I presume David's

    meta has distressing amounts of PTO."

    Just between you, me and the group, I have 6 decks built that I play.
    They contain a collective 2 blood dolls, and zero hunting grounds.
    Myself I do not favor those cards. If that makes me a bad player in
    some people's eyes, then I guess I will have to live with the label.
    And, just so you know, I don't smoke.

    That being said, this deck retains 2 blood dolls and 2 minion taps. In
    60 cards, that should be enough.

    "Police Department?!? You'll be dead long before you can press out.
    Misdirection? (One Misdirection maybe, but three?!?) Sure, the Minion

    Taps could be pretty good substitutes for Blood Dolls with the high
    average capacity, but how are you going to refill with only two
    Restores? I'd put the Blood Dolls and HG back."

    2 Minion Taps, 2 Restores. We'll see how it does in play testing.
    Again, I don't favor Hunting Grounds and Blood Dolls. As for Police
    Department, this deck has no S: CE. As such, with no presses to end
    combat, a single Trap will ruin it's day. IMHO, it needs some defense
    against that, hence the Hidden Strengths.

    "Without the Pulses, it just isn't the same deck. Your Restores will
    be
    blocked, if they seem at all important. Your Governs/Scouts will be
    bounced if used on offense and blocked if used for pool gain - you just

    can't generate that many 'important' actions. That's why the Pulses
    are so important - they make every bleed potentially deadly"

    The Restores will be blocked, but the Pulses won't? I have to disagree
    with you about the Pulses. They don't make every bleed potentially
    deadly- that's what conditioning does. This is why I put in
    conditioning.

    "Here I agree with the diversification. Even more would not hurt.
    Here's a chance to get rid of some Sleeping Mind. Stick in some
    Crocodile Tongue. And would it hurt so much to put a Kiss back in?"

    Crocodile's Tongue would be a good card. Myself I don't have any
    extras. If it turns out to be THAT important, I could look at modifying
    the decklist to add that in. If the deck just doen't play without Kiss
    in a reasonable manner then I would simply say this deck is not a BWP
    candidate.

    "With only 3 Wakes, you're going to be looking at a hand full of blue
    (OK, it's not blue anymore) while completely tapped out far too often.
    I'm surprised you left in all that Obedience. Why did all the Auspex
    reactions go?"

    The deck is a wall deck. As such, by removing cards that tap minions to
    react (such as Telepathic Misdirection, Delaying Tactics, and
    Irreguilar Protocol) and favored cards that do not tap (such as
    Loyalist, and Deflection). As for the Telepathic Counter, I may put
    those back in. But, with 6 bleed redirection cards, I think the decks
    bleed defense is OK. Will have to see in play testing.

    In regards to the combat package, "This is a completely different, and
    probably insufficient, approach to combat than David took. This deck
    is going to be almost completely
    defenseless, which is bad when you can't muster any real stealth or
    bruise. After you take out all the Pulses, you probably don't need as
    much prevent, but this is way, way too little combat for a deck that
    can end up in combat every time anyone generates +1 intercept. "

    I don't see it at all as completely different. They are fairly similar
    to the original. The original had 18 combat cards out of 90 (20%)
    dedicated entirely to preventing combat damage. The next deck has 8 out
    of 60 dedicated to combat prevent and 2 Zip Guns- that's 13% combat
    cards. A definite reduction, but it made room for more bleed cards. The
    new selection of combat cards allows for manuevering away from
    troublesome situations and presses to end combat. Is it less, yea, but
    it allowed for the threat portion to be expanded. I may go back and
    refigure the precentages based on actual play.

    "All in all, it looks like a practically random selection of cards,
    with
    no real plan for getting anything accomplished. It's not going to play

    at all like the original.

    Given that you don't seem wedded to David's design, I think I'd aim
    much more directly at a standard !Ventrue toolbox, which should be
    pretty easily doable within the stated aims of your Barbed Wire
    concept. If you're interested in doing that, here's the title of one
    of the more recent threads that could help:

    [Deck] Ventrue - Antitribu: How do these guys win games???

    Heck, it even has my standard !Ventrue toolbox in it."

    I'll take a look at it.

    "I'm sorry my language has been kind of harsh in places in this post.
    It's just not the same with out my eyes goggling out and me sputtering
    comically. I expect that you mean well with Barbed Wire; I hope that
    you can see that I mean well too underneath all the criticism."

    Eh, I'm pretty thick skinned. I do have to say though that I feel no
    choices were "comical". I feel a lot of criticism has been leveled
    unfairly at my efforts in the BWP whenever I try to find a substitute
    or work around for a popular set of cards for a given clan. I don't
    mind the criticism, but I have gotten results that I find acceptable
    with a card selection that other people have never used before. For me,
    that's the whole fun of the project.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Dear Daneel,

    Sorry for the confusion. I was more just "showing my work" in terms of
    the old math problems where you start some place and end someplace
    else. If I implied one deck was more or less another deck, then I
    apologize.

    Cheers,
    Preston
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    On 17 Jun 2005 12:31:42 -0700, Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > Hey Alex,
    >
    > Thanks for responding. I have never played the !Ventrue much myself.

    With all due respect, some of your replies are more understandable in the
    context of this remark.

    Also, I think that even changing a handful of cards can really alter a
    deck concept. You've made changes that failed to preserve the original
    concept. It's not a problem, but quoting a different deck as the source
    serves no purpose whatsoever. Not that there would be anything wrong
    with saying "OK, I built this from scratch, while occasionally glancing
    at this other deck". It just confuses people when you "okay, these are
    basically the same decks" and point at two rather different decks.

    --
    Bye,

    Daneel
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Ok. Played this deck today. My predator was playing S&B, prey as
    playing an Enkidu Raptor deck. No one was playing with any votes so all
    my Loyalists were wasted. I went first. On turn 3 I brought up Quentin.
    Next turn I Minion tapped him for 6, scouting missioned down, and
    brought out Marlene, the non-infernal infernalist. She Deflected a
    stealth bleed to my prey which chewed up his one Forced Awakening. On
    my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
    of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
    CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but
    it seemed like the opportunity was right. My prey was down to 4 pool or
    so. He brought Enkidu back to rush Marlene who had skin of steel to
    stop his 3 hand damage.

    My predator refrained from bleeding much over the next couple of turns
    either beacause she didn't have the cards or was concerned about being
    deflected. Over the next 2-3 turns I brought out Black Horse Tanner and
    managed to bleed my prey out- yea 1 VP for me.

    My next prey was also playing a rush deck and about that time I was out
    of fortitude cards. He promply torpored all my guys and I soon died.

    So, in tuning the deck a bit, I am thinking of taking out 1 Scouting
    Mission, 1 Govern, 3 Loyalist, and adding 2 Skin of Steel, 2 Soaks, and
    1 Rapid Healing.

    I will keep messing with it.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Yea, I bleed for 11 because Quentin bleed for 5 (Scounting
    Mission+Conditioning) and Marlene bleed for 6 (Govern + Conditioning).
    My prey's Enkidu had a Raptor, so he could stop the stealth bleed, and
    he played a S: Dodge in the resulting combat. I guess he figured that
    he might draw another Forced Awakening, but he didn't.

    Anyway, at this point with the BWP, I only have 3 Cam clans left. I
    will be posting the Brujah in a couple of days and they seem to be
    working just fine. The Malkavians obviously will be fairly competitive
    and straight forward. That only leaves the Ventrue. and it seems to be
    that they have more powerful tools available in the commons/uncommons
    toolbox to work with: Majesty, Bewitching Oration- Voter Cap, Parity
    Shift and strong 7-8 cap titled vamps.

    I am willing to stretch to include some uncommons when necessary (such
    as voter capitativation) but I first try to see if there's a way to do
    it with commons only. I want each uncommon included to be there because
    there just wasn't an acceptable substitute. I haven't tried the 4 Pulse
    version, but I just don't see that it is really gaining me much by the
    inclusion of the 4 uncommons over the use of common bleed modifiers.

    Unfortunately, the !Ventrue don't seem to have that good a toolbox
    available at the common level. Fortitude is their only combat
    discipline and damage prevention only goes so far. If one is not
    concerned about commonality, then Kiss of Ra, Freak Drive, Dawn Op, etc
    become things that allow for you to make up for their lack of stealth
    and combat, but you are no longer talking about a cheap and efficient
    deck. It may just be that the !Ventrue don't play all that well at the
    common/uncommon level, and I am prepared to scrap BWP: !Ventrue unless
    it shows more promise.
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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    Preston wrote:
    | Ok. Played this deck today. My predator was playing S&B, prey as
    | playing an Enkidu Raptor deck. No one was playing with any votes so all
    | my Loyalists were wasted. I went first. On turn 3 I brought up Quentin.
    | Next turn I Minion tapped him for 6, scouting missioned down, and
    | brought out Marlene, the non-infernal infernalist. She Deflected a
    | stealth bleed to my prey which chewed up his one Forced Awakening. On

    Newbie mistake on your prey's part. Your grandpredator will never bleed
    you for as much as your predator; you need to save your untap to stop
    the 0-stealth !Ventrue. If he burned a Wake against a stealthy bleed
    that he couldn't block, that's another newbie mistake. If your
    grandpredator added stealth to the bleed specifically to keep from being
    blocked by your prey, that's a MAJOR newbie mistake.

    | my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
    | of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
    | CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but

    Sure you can. Just Minion Tap him for a bit less.

    Turn 3, I get Quentin. I Minion Tap him for 4 -- he has 5 blood left.
    I get a Pulse, I Freak Drive, I Scout to Marlene. Quentin on 1 blood,
    Marlene Deflects on my predator's turn.

    Turn 4, Quentin Restores at superior, Freak Drives, and Govern bleeds
    with Conditioning for a total of 8 pool in a single bleed. Quentin
    still at 1 blood and bleeding for 3 every turn from here out.

    I don't know where you're getting "11 pool" from. Since Govern +
    Condition add up to 6, I can only assume that you're including both
    Marlene's bleed that turn AND the Deflection from Marlene in the
    previous turn.

    The best part? Pulsed minions get to bleed for 3 even when you don't
    top-deck all your bleed modifiers. So you can include fewer bleed
    modifiers, and more Fortitude cards to help you deal with people coming
    to kick your minions' asses.

    Pulse is expensive, of course, and tends to paint a target on your
    vampire's head. But in a deck designed to compensate for the cost, it
    is extremely effective. The !Ventrue can compensate for Pulse's cost
    better than most; dismissing it out of hand is careless.

    - --
    Derek

    insert clever quotation here

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  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    If you're unwilling to use Freak Drive, the players of !Ventrue decks
    are going to encounter frustration and only marginal success. !Ventrue
    actions will be blocked. Unless you can generate more actions through
    allies or weenies, you'll lose the action/turn battle that marks the
    turn-by-turn struggle of the typical game.

    Given the limitations of your project, the !Ventrue may be a poor
    choice of deck archetype. However, you might try the following deck,
    geared to perhaps win a battle of attrition through more permanent
    bleed, pool, and blood gain. Best of luck!

    Deck Name : Barbed Wire Ventrue Anti Deck
    Author : cmb
    Description :
    Made for the BWP. Restricted to commonly available cards and a 60 card
    deck.


    Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 4 max: 10 average: 6.67
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    2x Peter Blaine 4 aus dom for !Ventrue:2
    2x Billy 5 AUS dom for !Ventrue:2
    1x Dylan 6 aus cel dom for pro !Ventrue:2
    1x Vanessa 6 DOM FOR aus pre !Ventrue:2
    1x Blackhorse Tanner 7 AUS DOM FOR !Ventrue:3
    1x Jesse Menks 8 AUS DOM FOR ani archbishop !Ventrue:3
    2x Owain Evans, The W 8 AUS DOM FOR cel pre !Ventrue:3
    1x Quentin 9 AUS DOM FOR cel obt bishop !Ventrue:2
    1x Lazverinus, Thrall 10 AUS DOM FOR POT pro archbishop !Ventrue:2


    Library [60 cards]
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Master [11]
    1x Antediluvian Awakening
    4x Blood Doll
    2x Capitalist
    1x Corporate Hunting Ground
    1x Demonstration
    1x Information Highway
    1x Sudden Reversal

    Action [10]
    3x Govern the Unaligned
    2x Pulse of the Canaille
    3x Rapid Healing
    2x Restoration

    Action Modifier [7]
    3x Bonding
    2x Dawn Operation
    2x Seduction

    Combat [13]
    3x Hidden Strength
    3x Rolling with the Punches
    3x Unflinching Persistence
    4x Zip Gun

    Reaction [19]
    4x Deflection
    2x Enhanced Senses
    5x Forced Awakening
    3x Precognition
    2x Spirit's Touch
    3x Wake with Evening's Freshness

    Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Mon Jun 20 01:48:14 2005]
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    "Derek Ray" <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:7Y2dnTr0Ce8hFCjfRVn-qw@giganews.com...
    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    > Hash: SHA1
    >
    > Preston wrote:

    > | my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
    > | of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
    > | CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but
    >
    > Sure you can. Just Minion Tap him for a bit less.
    >
    > Turn 3, I get Quentin. I Minion Tap him for 4 -- he has 5 blood left.
    > I get a Pulse, I Freak Drive, I Scout to Marlene. Quentin on 1 blood,
    > Marlene Deflects on my predator's turn.
    >
    > Turn 4, Quentin Restores at superior, Freak Drives, and Govern bleeds
    > with Conditioning for a total of 8 pool in a single bleed. Quentin
    > still at 1 blood and bleeding for 3 every turn from here out.
    >
    You'd put enough Freak Drive into a deck you intend to give away, such that
    you're drawing at least one per turn... Can I have it? ;-)

    > I don't know where you're getting "11 pool" from. Since Govern +
    > Condition add up to 6, I can only assume that you're including both
    > Marlene's bleed that turn AND the Deflection from Marlene in the
    > previous turn.
    >
    Or, Quentin and Marlene both bled, one with Govern/Cond, one with
    Scouting/Cond.

    > The best part? Pulsed minions get to bleed for 3 even when you don't
    > top-deck all your bleed modifiers. So you can include fewer bleed
    > modifiers, and more Fortitude cards to help you deal with people coming
    > to kick your minions' asses.
    >
    > Pulse is expensive, of course, and tends to paint a target on your
    > vampire's head. But in a deck designed to compensate for the cost, it
    > is extremely effective. The !Ventrue can compensate for Pulse's cost
    > better than most; dismissing it out of hand is careless.
    >
    Yeah, true for the game as a whole, but its also the reason why I'd keep
    them (Pulse) out of a Barbed Wire deck. They offer less control of the
    bleed amount.(which is typically a bad idea to put in the hands of a newbie
    player) Without a Short Leash concept, you're just begging to be bounced
    from the point where the action is announced... Newman B. Player may not be
    as resourceful at (or even understand exactly why he should) controlling
    bleed amounts which fall off-prey. You mentioned how your Grandpred will
    never bleed for more than your Pred... That truth becomes less true with
    Pulses in the Grandpred's deck.

    Regards
    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Cmb,

    I'll give your version a try.

    Thanks,
    Preston
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Hey Guys,

    I am abandoning the BWP: !Ventrue deck.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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    David Zopf wrote:
    | "Derek Ray" <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    | news:7Y2dnTr0Ce8hFCjfRVn-qw@giganews.com...
    |
    |>Preston wrote:
    |
    |>| my turn I scouting mission/govern bleed with coniditoning for a total
    |>| of 11 pool off my prey. NOTE: YOU CAN NOT DO THIS WITH PULSE OF THE
    |>| CANALILE! I did debate a little bit about going forward this early, but
    |>
    |>Sure you can. Just Minion Tap him for a bit less.
    |
    | You'd put enough Freak Drive into a deck you intend to give away, such
    that
    | you're drawing at least one per turn... Can I have it? ;-)

    No bets about how many are in there -- but given the amount of Scouting
    Mission, Govern, and Conditioning in Preston's original deck, I deem it
    equally as likely that I'll topdeck 2 Freak Drives as it is that he'll
    draw as many of the three above as he did in his example. Normally I
    just call shenanigans on stories like that, but the only intent was to
    point out that Pulse most certainly DOES allow you to bleed for lots, in
    direct contradiction to his flat-out denial of same. (see above).

    Pulse's requirement is blood-on-the-minion, so if you MT Quentin for 6,
    I don't see Pulse being a good plan in your future. But you can
    definitely get people kitted up nicely.

    |>I don't know where you're getting "11 pool" from. Since Govern +
    |>Condition add up to 6, I can only assume that you're including both
    |>Marlene's bleed that turn AND the Deflection from Marlene in the
    |>previous turn.
    |
    | Or, Quentin and Marlene both bled, one with Govern/Cond, one with
    | Scouting/Cond.

    As above: stupid prey syndrome combined with massive topdeck of bleed
    cards.

    Any idiot can bleed for 11. The trick is getting the bleed for 11
    through without it getting blocked or Deflected... while your prey is
    actually trying to survive.

    |>The best part? Pulsed minions get to bleed for 3 even when you don't
    |>top-deck all your bleed modifiers. So you can include fewer bleed
    |>modifiers, and more Fortitude cards to help you deal with people coming
    |>to kick your minions' asses.
    |>
    |>Pulse is expensive, of course, and tends to paint a target on your
    |>vampire's head. But in a deck designed to compensate for the cost, it
    |>is extremely effective. The !Ventrue can compensate for Pulse's cost
    |>better than most; dismissing it out of hand is careless.
    |
    | Yeah, true for the game as a whole, but its also the reason why I'd keep
    | them (Pulse) out of a Barbed Wire deck. They offer less control of the
    | bleed amount.(which is typically a bad idea to put in the hands of a
    newbie

    Exactly the reason you don't Pulse all your minions.

    I think as far as newbies are concerned, I'd be a lot more inclined to
    give them something that has permanents, and then let them use the
    transients in their hand to figure out how to get the permanents
    through, you know? The newbie has to learn that "big bleeds get
    Deflected" sometime... it might as well be earlier rather than later.

    | player) Without a Short Leash concept, you're just begging to be bounced
    | from the point where the action is announced... Newman B. Player may
    not be
    | as resourceful at (or even understand exactly why he should) controlling

    Well, at a 0 stealth bleed (!Ventrue are good at this), it's pretty easy
    to see what happens. Deflection don't go away. It sits in the player's
    hand until used -- you might as well give them the potential to manage.
    ~ Adding some Bonding makes it a little trickier, but again, you gotta
    learn sometime.

    | bleed amounts which fall off-prey. You mentioned how your Grandpred will
    | never bleed for more than your Pred... That truth becomes less true with
    | Pulses in the Grandpred's deck.

    Sure, but nobody Deflects until after the Conditioning drops anyway,
    making the actual AMOUNT a moot point. The difference is that your
    grand-predator is not going to add stealth and/or beat up your minion
    just for blocking.

    - --
    Derek

    insert clever quotation here

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  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Preston wrote:
    > Unfortunately, the !Ventrue don't seem to have that good a toolbox
    > available at the common level.

    My further suggestion for all the Barbed Wire decks is not to hamstring
    yourself by *only* using commons. I think it is more than acceptable
    and feasible to include 4-6 Uncommons in *EVERY* deck. IMO, the
    Uncommons provide much of the true power in VTES lies, and that is one
    of the game's strengths--they're not hard to come by so with a very
    little bit of trading, you can get what you need.

    Good Uncommons for !Ventrue:

    AUSPEX
    Eagle's Sight
    Pulse of the Canaille
    Revelations

    DOMINATE
    Graverobbing
    Obedience

    FORTITUDE
    Freak Drive
    The Kiss of Ra

    VENTRUE ANTITRIBU
    Corporate Hunting Ground
    Ventrue Investment

    You don't have to use all of the above cards (everyone knows how
    valuable Freak Drives are), but if you put in 2x Pulse, 1x Revelations,
    1x Corporate HG and 1x Ventrue Investment, you'd succeed on two fronts:

    1) You'd have a much stronger deck without going overboard by making it
    hard to acquire;
    2) You'd provide more flavor for what the clan can actually do.

    Limiting yourself to commons is an admirable goal, but I think that
    bending just a tiny bit for uncommons will make your decks that much
    stronger without making them unattainable for new players (or yourself
    to provide them to newbs).

    Jeff
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

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    Preston wrote:
    | Yea, I bleed for 11 because Quentin bleed for 5 (Scounting
    | Mission+Conditioning) and Marlene bleed for 6 (Govern + Conditioning).
    | My prey's Enkidu had a Raptor, so he could stop the stealth bleed, and
    | he played a S: Dodge in the resulting combat. I guess he figured that
    | he might draw another Forced Awakening, but he didn't.

    So your prey used his combat monster's only Wake to block his
    GRANDPREDATOR's bleed, instead of picking on those nice crunchy DOM
    minions behind him? Major mistake. You take the grandpredator's bleed,
    use the Wake to beat up Quentin or Marlene, and THEN you see if you draw
    another one. Difference? One less predatorial minion, and if you're
    lucky, your predator rescues his torporized other guy instead of trying
    for a second bleed.

    Very, VERY poor play by your prey.

    | I am willing to stretch to include some uncommons when necessary (such
    | as voter capitativation) but I first try to see if there's a way to do
    | it with commons only. I want each uncommon included to be there because
    | there just wasn't an acceptable substitute. I haven't tried the 4 Pulse
    | version, but I just don't see that it is really gaining me much by the
    | inclusion of the 4 uncommons over the use of common bleed modifiers.

    Try the 3 Pulse or 2 Pulse version, then. Pulse is an excellent tool
    for the !Ventrue. Damage prevention is super-common, with all the
    Fortitude mixing well with permanents. They're going to need Fortitude
    anyway -- USE IT.

    | Unfortunately, the !Ventrue don't seem to have that good a toolbox
    | available at the common level. Fortitude is their only combat
    | discipline and damage prevention only goes so far. If one is not

    Silliness. Damage prevention goes QUITE a long way when you use things
    like Skin of Steel, Rolling with the Punches, Superior Mettle, etc.
    Back this up with Skin of Rock, Indomitability, and Unflinching
    Persistence and you should rarely take damage. Give a couple Flak
    Jackets to them so you don't have to spend a card for EVERY hands-for-1
    combat, and that should get your guys just about bulletproof.
    Restoration to put blood back on them.

    The !Ventrue have one of the best common-toolboxes available: DOM, AUS,
    and FOR common cards are all excellent, and the disciplines themselves
    are superb. The problems come in when you start trying to oust people,
    because they don't come with stealth built-in except for Bonding.

    | concerned about commonality, then Kiss of Ra, Freak Drive, Dawn Op, etc
    | become things that allow for you to make up for their lack of stealth
    | and combat, but you are no longer talking about a cheap and efficient

    Put a couple .44s in, if you must. Or, Gas-Powered Chainsaw is not the
    best card in the world, but the !Ventrue can use it quite efficiently.

    | deck. It may just be that the !Ventrue don't play all that well at the
    | common/uncommon level, and I am prepared to scrap BWP: !Ventrue unless
    | it shows more promise.

    The deck you posted was already noticeably better than your Gangrel and
    Nosferatu versions, neither of which can stand up to even a half-hearted
    stealth bleed deck. Just keep thinking it through, and assume that your
    prey will make the BEST move available to him, not the worst, and go
    from there.

    Lots of commons are out there for your using. Use your head.

    - --
    Derek

    insert clever quotation here

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  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

    Jeff,

    I don't limit myself to commons. As I said in this thread, I stretch to
    include them, but:
    A. They better do something powerful that the commons don't do
    B. The commons better be able to fulfill the core of the strategy. The
    uncommons and rares are their to complement, not define.
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